Page 7 of 16 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
8
9
... LastLast
  1. #121
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    California
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    So it's okay to invade and dispossess a population because it is small?
    I think most conflict comes from resource scarcity and saturation. There were obviously many areas where pioneers came in attacked and stole already inhabited regions. There were also many regions where nothing was going on, no development, no people, no local economy. If you value the growth of civilization then you have to say the former is bad, the latter is good. Though you recently said something about "deep ecology", so it could be that you are not very pro-homo sapien.

  2. #122
    looking from some posts in other topics, he would almost fire in the head of a children in public and some would argue than the children was about to attack him and was right to use self defense.

    Joke aside, nothing, except going to war and losing, i dont think he can be doing anything so much extreme to loose people who are actually choosing him because of their rejection of others (politics, huh), it would be too hard on self pride for these people to see its a scumbag or not (and on this point, dont argue whatever, liberals did the same with dark hillarydor, i mean what the fuck, she would have never gone to presidency).

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I think there is no version of the American story that would not involve displacement and dispossession. America as presently constituted could not exist without the horror that preceded it. AND once more, even if you argue that it wasn't necessary; you then have to reckon with the fact that the founders and foundation layers of this country DID choose that path if in your mind there was an alternative. I think that is rather handwavey. More over there is an uncomfortable utilitarianism in your words that in your mind the good America may or may not do makes past sins acceptable, as if their annihilation is just a necessary sacrifice. I don't think that really obsolves anything and if anything reveals more about you than it does about history.
    Yeah, I'm not a utilitarian (somewhere between deontological and virtue ethics preferences, very little weight on consequentialism), which is why I said that I don't think there's actual a good ethical argument on this front. I'm glad that an immoral thing occurred because the net impact has been excellent for humanity, but that doesn't actually justify the immoral thing.

    But yes, I agree that it's a pointless hypothetical. The reality is that the land was cleared by a deliberate program of systemic displacement and violence.

  4. #124
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    24,166
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Yeah, I'm not a utilitarian (somewhere between deontological and virtue ethics preferences, very little weight on consequentialism), which is why I said that I don't think there's actual a good ethical argument on this front. I'm glad that an immoral thing occurred because the net impact has been excellent for humanity, but that doesn't actually justify the immoral thing.

    But yes, I agree that it's a pointless hypothetical. The reality is that the land was cleared by a deliberate program of systemic displacement and violence.
    Your first phrase undercuts the second thing. Ultimately you make a utilitarian calculation that the loses were less important than what was built from it; thus you don't hazard any ethical considerations for what was done and what could be done in the future. You are either okay with this act of human sacrifice in the name of self-enrichment or not. Clearly you are okay with it becuase you did not pay any price but reaped the bountiful reward.

    If some dark day you are on the chopping block, I wonder if your thoughts might change. It's easy to be the executioner or to be the one that gets the executed land and property. It's another matter to be the one to be executed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    I think most conflict comes from resource scarcity and saturation. There were obviously many areas where pioneers came in attacked and stole already inhabited regions. There were also many regions where nothing was going on, no development, no people, no local economy. If you value the growth of civilization then you have to say the former is bad, the latter is good. Though you recently said something about "deep ecology", so it could be that you are not very pro-homo sapien.
    So dispossession is okay if the population is depopulated by a plague brought. Either way you are still admitting to be over all point; that their destruction was of paramount importance to your success.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Your first phrase undercuts the second thing. Ultimately you make a utilitarian calculation that the loses were less important than what was built from it; thus you don't hazard any ethical considerations for what was done and what could be done in the future. You are either okay with this act of human sacrifice in the name of self-enrichment or not. Clearly you are okay with it becuase you did not pay any price but reaped the bountiful reward.

    If some dark day you are on the chopping block, I wonder if your thoughts might change. It's easy to be the executioner or to be the one that gets the executed land and property. It's another matter to be the one to be executed.
    I don't really see where you're getting the notion that I think it's ethically acceptable. Are you really suggesting that post-hoc utilitarian calculations can't be used to evaluate the outcome of something that you're sure is unethical from a principled perspective? That strikes me as silly.

  6. #126
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    24,166
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I don't really see where you're getting the notion that I think it's ethically acceptable. Are you really suggesting that post-hoc utilitarian calculations can't be used to evaluate the outcome of something that you're sure is unethical from a principled perspective? That strikes me as silly.
    Because of your statement that "I'm glad it happened", which either amounts to "I'm okay it wasn't me and I got rich" which is equally terrible. If you are prepared to celebrate in the bountiful harvest of human sacrifice, why get defensive when people point out the bloody cruelty? Once more there is a serious question of a repetition, if this ghastly act is acceptable, why not another? Afterall you are glad it happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  7. #127
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    California
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    So dispossession is okay if the population is depopulated by a plague brought. Either way you are still admitting to be over all point; that their destruction was of paramount importance to your success.
    Intentional dispossession is not a good act. The problem is that ownership of land outside of infrastructure hotspots was very fuzzy before there was documents, deeds, detailed cartography. For example if there was two separate Amerindian tribes one on the Pacific coast and one on the Atlantic. Would that automatically mean they have sovereignty over everything in between? Imo, they had to be utilizing a given acre at least yearly to claim sovereignty.

  8. #128
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Planning Next Vacation
    Posts
    9,217
    Quote Originally Posted by Malvalen View Post
    Why does it make you happy to see people angry or upset or afraid? Why does other people's misery make you feel good? I genuinely don't understand this. I've felt some degree of schadenfreude in situations where I felt someone got their just desserts, but I've never just wanted other people to be miserable, even if they don't agree with my ideals.
    Consider it payback. All 8 years of the Obama years having smug and condescending liberals tended to get a bit old. I consider many liberals to be elitist bullies. So naturally I want them to get their just reward. Many folks on here are embodiment's of the type of liberals I truly detest. As long as they continue to act like they are superior to their fellow lesser humans, I will continue to want people in power that makes them lose their cool and freak out.
    Last edited by BuckSparkles; 2018-01-13 at 08:10 PM.

  9. #129
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    3,443
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Intentional dispossession is not a good act. The problem is that ownership of land outside of infrastructure hotspots was very fuzzy before there was documents, deeds, detailed cartography. For example if there was two separate Amerindian tribes one on the Pacific coast and one on the Atlantic. Would that automatically mean they have sovereignty over everything in between? Imo, they had to be utilizing a given acre at least yearly to claim sovereignty.
    Isn't there somehow the question included: Why should indigenous people comply with the perception and laws of foreign invaders?

    I mean... Indians having to adhere to european land-ownership is a bit like people in europe being forced to adhere to sharia law (which, btw. contrary to what you hear is NOT happening)

  10. #130
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    California
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Isn't there somehow the question included: Why should indigenous people comply with the perception and laws of foreign invaders?

    I mean... Indians having to adhere to european land-ownership is a bit like people in europe being forced to adhere to sharia law (which, btw. contrary to what you hear is NOT happening)
    They shouldn't automatically comply with any laws, they should try to reason about the merit of the concepts objectively. The merit of law and the concept of ownership is independent of where it came from.

    Early Americans didn't think Amerindians or blacks were full people of the same kind, so in that case the law wasn't the problem in most cases, there just wasn't scientific backing behind the interpretation. Thus they could legally take inhabited land and enslave for a while.
    Last edited by PC2; 2018-01-13 at 08:39 PM.

  11. #131
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    3,443
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    They shouldn't automatically comply with any laws, they should try to reason about the merit of the concepts objectively. The merit of law and the concept of ownership is independent of where it came from.
    ????

    "the merit of law and the concept of ownership" is not some universal truth but something that rooted in western culture and in its value system. Societies can exist without this concept. Again - why should they bother if they already live there?

    And yeah, Blacks and Indians weren'z seen as equal, but what does that lead us to? It was okay back then, so it is okay now? You know, when the Nazis confiscated all the jewish property it was fully legal. Somehow the world seemed to think afterwards it wasn't okay and one of the conditions of peace was to give people back their stuff (which sadly didn't happen fast enough) - so ... where does that leave us? If we really believe in morality - then probably you should all leave and come back to europe - we can find a few bunks for you.

  12. #132
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    California
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    ????

    "the merit of law and the concept of ownership" is not some universal truth but something that rooted in western culture and in its value system. Societies can exist without this concept. Again - why should they bother if they already live there?

    And yeah, Blacks and Indians weren'z seen as equal, but what does that lead us to? It was okay back then, so it is okay now? You know, when the Nazis confiscated all the jewish property it was fully legal. Somehow the world seemed to think afterwards it wasn't okay and one of the conditions of peace was to give people back their stuff (which sadly didn't happen fast enough) - so ... where does that leave us? If we really believe in morality - then probably you should all leave and come back to europe - we can find a few bunks for you.
    I can't claim that it is "universal truth", I'm just arguing that codifying laws and clear ownership is a measurably good idea for a society. If you look at all the societies who kept what they value in their heads and didn't write about laws and personal ownership, they pretty much never flourished. Most all of their lives were short with a lot of suffering.
    Last edited by PC2; 2018-01-13 at 09:20 PM.

  13. #133
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    This actually might be the best, legit answer. If Trump went for the guns, he'd be out. IMO at least.
    No, any sane rational person would support him if he did that.

  14. #134
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    3,443
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    I can't claim that it is "universal truth", I'm just arguing that codifying laws and clear ownership is a measurably good idea for a society. If you look at all the societies who kept what they value in their heads and didn't write about laws and personal ownership, they pretty much never flourished. Most all of their lives were short with a lot of suffering.
    That's a bold claim without any sources. I mean, yeah their lives were short and with a lot of suffering, like all around the world at this time. Personally i don't know it exactly, as native american societies were never a topic i delved into deeply, but afaik a lot of the american constitution was influenced by the federation of indian tribes, so... that cannot flourish? Afaik there was no land ownership as land wasn't something that could be owned. Personally i would argue without landownership a lot of crisis or developments would never have happened (maybe the world would be better of without feudalism? There would have been no roman civil war without land ownership and subsequent end of the Republic. Of course maybe there wouldn't have been a republic in the first place - but we BOTH don't know that.)

    I don't claim anything like that, but you claim land ownership is something that is necessary - so... deliver - i eagerly await the sources for your claims.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 2018-01-13 at 09:12 PM.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    He'd have to stop being a middle ground President with fairly sane stances on Immigration.
    Wait, you are crazy enough to think that Trump is a middle ground President? And his stances aren't sane on immigration, they are flat out racist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    When Trump was shown to be a very obvious Populist who holds very centrist views in mind. I mean honestly, Trump isn't removing anything apart from weird overly leftist things like DACA and other stupid things the democrats passed.
    Centrist to racists, that is it.

  16. #136
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    24,166
    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Intentional dispossession is not a good act. The problem is that ownership of land outside of infrastructure hotspots was very fuzzy before there was documents, deeds, detailed cartography. For example if there was two separate Amerindian tribes one on the Pacific coast and one on the Atlantic. Would that automatically mean they have sovereignty over everything in between? Imo, they had to be utilizing a given acre at least yearly to claim sovereignty.
    Ownership in accordance with ones own concept of ownership. It was the dispossession of another. Much as if someone holds you to the standards of say a foreign or alien legal culture. An alien legal culture enforced through violance I might add.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  17. #137
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    3,443
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Ownership in accordance with ones own concept of ownership. It was the dispossession of another. Much as if someone holds you to the standards of say a foreign or alien legal culture. An alien legal culture enforced through violance I might add.
    To add to that: land ownership can be seen culturally different. Just because it isn't handed out to individuals of a population doesn't mean the people as a whole have no claim on it. They just use it differently.

    Same goes for - just because there are no legal documents doesn't mean it is up for grabs. Maybe some people used their law to justify such land grabs, but that doesn't make them right which history has often shown.

  18. #138
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Rigging your election
    Posts
    36,799
    Quote Originally Posted by BuckSparkles View Post
    Consider it payback. All 8 years of the Obama years having smug and condescending liberals tended to get a bit old. I consider many liberals to be elitist bullies. So naturally I want them to get their just reward. Many folks on here are embodiment's of the type of liberals I truly detest. As long as they continue to act like they are superior to their fellow lesser humans, I will continue to want people in power that makes them lose their cool and freak out.
    For as much talk as conservatives gave about not letting stuff get to them, they sure do bear a pretty striking grudge against Obama, who basically did nothing. Nobody actively bullied conservatives, but they forever played the part of the poor victim, and even now it seems they claim that those evil liberal bullies were at fault...

    At fault for not letting them have big government right wing policy that would ruin people's lives of course.

    So for as much as conservatives claim to have thick skin, let's analyze the fects:

    1. They get EXTREMELY triggered thinking about Obama, as evidenced by this post. Even to the point that they feel they were bullied and victimized during those 8 years. Sure, they were bullied... about not bullying others. The rest is all just victim complex.
    2. They elected the biggest bully of the nation's history, someone who has repeatedly offended people for no reason. It's funny how there's a difference between bullying someone who is trying to use government to invade someone else's personal life... and someone who just bullies cause he's a bully with zero virtue.
    3. Funny enough, same person they elected has the thinnest skin on the planet, and him and his followers get so easily triggered by anything said about their dear leader that they just start ignoring all criticism and scream "FAKE" at anything that accurately portrays dear leader Trump in a bad light.

    So basically, BuckSparkles post was just a roundabout way of admitting they were so triggered that they elected Trump out of counter-spite at alleged slights against themselves, rather than thinking he had good policy.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  19. #139
    All they ever cared about was pissing off the libruls. If there wasn't Trump then they would've voted for someone else who said the things they wanted to hear.

  20. #140
    Banned BuckSparkles's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Planning Next Vacation
    Posts
    9,217
    Quote Originally Posted by Butter Emails View Post

    So basically, BuckSparkles post was just a roundabout way of admitting they were so triggered that they elected Trump out of counter-spite at alleged slights against themselves, rather than thinking he had good policy.
    Obama wasn't a bother. Besides the race baiting, I really didn't hate Obama. Sure, I was glad when he was gone, but I would feel that way about any liberal president.

    It was moreso the type of people that got him elected. The ones who accused anybody with criticisms as racism and all that usual garbage. Believe it or not, you can disagree with a black person without being racist.

    As for policy, Trump is doing just fine in terms of beliefs. I agree with his stance on immigration (not taking people from dangerous and unstable countries) as well as rejecting the globalist idea that you must take all the refugees. Not to mention I am not a fan of illegal immigrants because actual immigrants went through quite a process to become Americans and illegals just spit on that.

    Tax cuts I will always agree with, because taxing the fuck out of everything and everybody is nothing more than a way for the government to pull hard earned money from you and either keep it to waste it or give it to somebody else.

    The economy looks to be doing just fine, despite doom and gloom predictions from the media, and I respect somebody who speaks like a normal person and isn't some polished robot who cannot speak freely. Eliminating PCness will make the world a more honest place, which in in turn will lead to the betterment of society.

    Telling somebody who is fat, as an example, that they are oh so beautiful and perfect isn't a kindness, nor is ignoring other issues that are problems that people would rather sweep under the rug to prevent hurt feelings. We need to expose the problems in society one way or another and correct them.

    I get the feeling you won't understand any of this post, but that is okay. Because so far you have been exactly the type I wanted Trump to defeat politically.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •