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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Not true at all. I want balance but I don't want normalization or homogenization.

    My entire point is that the design of all classes shifts in every patch of Vanilla to the point where there is absolutely no consistency between the playstyle of 1.0 to 1.7 to 1.12 due to talent overhauls and itemization design that changed over time. I'd like to see balance changes come in to actually define the class as what it should be rather than the 'Innervate-Bot/Buffadin -> Support/Healbot -> Actual Hybrid' [patch progression that was born out of a clear lack of direction. It's literally a case of Blizzard not knowing where to fit Hybrids in the Holy Trinity so they cut them short in all aspects and left it at that. Being able to do anything but not do anything well is not a role.
    While I agree that Vanilla's is certainly not the best rendition of hybrid classes, the line must be drawn somewhere. Since BC was brought into the discussion, I remember the BC forums being chock-a-block full of Enh/Ele shammies, Ret palas and kitties QQ'ing about not being able to top DPS charts.

    What did Blizzard do? They caved in, and that's when hybrids stopped being hybrids. Come WotLK, even in an undertuned af raid such as Naxx, an enh shammy couldn't cast but two (maybe three if ele) slow and inefficient heals before going OOM, a ret pala couldn't off-tank for [email protected]#$, ditto for kitties. But rogues were benched all the freaking time, since, all things equal, why bring the rogue when you can bring the rogue with brez and innervate? And I'm talking just PvE, since kitties were actually nerfed in PvP in WotLK, and nerfed hard.

    So no, while BC may have been an improvement (which I can agree with), it didn't actually solve anything, especially after Blizz started pushing arenas and raiding down everyone's throat precisely in WotLK... "Bring the player, not the class"
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2018-01-23 at 07:11 PM.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    I want balance but I don't want normalization or homogenization. My problem is that there is no actual design to support the intended 'Hybrid' gameplay. At most, Ret can be an off-healer since all they do is auto-attack and have nothing else to press or cast, but they end up wasting their time with weak heals and having to cast between attacks. They might as well go Holy. Feral can't heal in forms and Shapeshift takes a 1/3rd of your mana pool, so it's not very effective at all. If they want these Hybrids to be Hybrids, then make it so.

    Vanilla changed so much from 1.0 to 1.12 that Hybrids have no designated roles (only healer 1.7+). 'Support' is what we call a class that doesn't fit in the Holy Trinity.
    Can you specific few balance changes you would propose?

    Oh and Hybrids were hybrids in PvP. If you ever played against good Druid, you would see how hybrids really worked..and worked very well.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So no, while BC may have been an improvement (which I can agree with), it didn't actually solve anything, especially after Blizz started pushing arenas and raiding down everyone's throat precisely in WotLK... "Bring the player, not the class"
    I agree with certain points of that. Parts of the problems were solved, others simply arised as a result but that is due to the direction of the changes that started with TBC and resulted in Wrath. The homogenization was good and bad depending on where you stand. In TBC, hybrids were distinct from Pures and bring something different to the table. They didn't need to overgear the content to be able to function in their role.

    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    Can you specific few balance changes you would propose?

    Oh and Hybrids were hybrids in PvP. If you ever played against good Druid, you would see how hybrids really worked..and worked very well.
    I've addressed PVP many times. PVP would not be affected by PVE changes if they were mainly controlled by itemization and stat weights. There is the issue of people using PVE gear in PVP and doing something like using all STR-gear to get crazy burst, but overall that can always be balanced through talents such as nerfing heals across the board (for Hybrids) and gaining that back through baseline talents in other specs. Now I'm not suggesting outright that we do this, as I don't know how much any change affects PVP overall. People tend to abuse any borderline exploit they can like Shamans with 2H or using proc-enchantments on fast weapons etc. I can't directly address balance in that respect, and I would defer to Blizzard designers to handle the separation between changes that affect PVE and damage control for PVP.

    My primary concern is addressing three simple issues

    1) Clarity on the intended design for Hybrids is in Raids. ie- you can off-tank and off-DPS and we will give you appropriate gear in all raids to support this; or we only want you to support/heal and we will lower shapeshift/casting costs on heal to better support this Hybrid play.

    2) Address stat balancing overall, as well as itemization. Druid and Paladins are kings of white damage and scale poorly with yellow. They are great early in dungeon blues and greens, but epics offer very little in terms of useful stats to bolster the white-damage scaling. Either boost the itemization or increase yellow damage, or as the suggestion above, keep the white damage (with better scaling) and yellow damage is traded off for utility healing. The latter direction should flesh out a Support/Utility role as intended design rather than the afterthought as it exists right now.

    3) Talents updated to support Hybrid gameplay (whichever they think is optimal for 'Vanilla experience'). This is where all 'Hybrid Tax' should be controlled. This can be addressed multiple ways.

    a) If they want to allow Feral Druid to DPS and Tank, then Talents will be the gate that prevents a competitive DPS and Tank Druids from ever healing competantly. No gear-swapping for EZ off-tank/off-healing, this would keep closer to TBC-style Hybrid 'Pure' roles (85% Pure's DPS/Tank efficiency, 15% provided by raid support stats/buffs). Global nerf 50% healing for all Hybrids in Raids and Dungeons while 100% healing is retained through mid Resto/Holy talents.

    b) If they want Ferals to be Jack of all Trades as per mid Vanilla, then have talents to support. Ie allow Feral to cast Resto and Innervate in forms. This can be balanced in PVP by simply not allowing Feral Casting when PVP flagged.

    Consider Talents to be a shifting-scale. An optimized DPS build could perform at 85% Pure's DPS (talents boosting better yellow damage, Heart of the Wild scaling) with 15% coming from support buffs on others (Leader of the Pack). If you want a Utility build with better heals then your DPS remains at ~65% (less str scaling without HotW, weaker Yellow damage), you don't provide Leader of the Pack and your heals are back to 100%. In the utility build, you gain strong heals but you are limited by your Mana pool. The more damage you want, the less heals you can cast during a raid. The more heals you can cast, the less damage you can deal. Overall, a Utility build scales less with STR so you are giving up damage by not taking those talents.

    In my opinion, a Hybrid that chooses to be a 'Pure' (ie itemizes away from Int, takes all tank/DPS talents) should not be punished for having the ability to cast heals. Weaken those heals in raid and we won't have that argument. We also need to add in gear options in early raids, as Epics were not tuned for any role at all.

    As for PVP, I don't want to touch any of that balance because I am not a PVPer and my opinion on the matter is moot. I simply think that any changes to PVE can be controlled separately from PVP through whatever technology we have available today. Talents, Gear, Raid-buffs/nerfs, PVP flags are all potential controllers for this.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2018-01-23 at 09:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Demithio View Post
    Well not really sure who would expect that from classic WoW. I imagine some might, which is just ridiculous. However, personally I wouldn't mind seeing TBC class enhancements in classic. Just don't get confused with people that want to see some TBC style adjustments added and those who may want to turn it into the slop we have today.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It was actually somewhat fun being a vending machine and public transportation during TBC. I actually got a lot of tips as well (thats when gold was worth something). It was part of the class and the RPG element of the game at the time.
    And to add to this, notice how that RPG class element has vanished from current WoW. Sad.
    Good for you then. You can still be a vending machine and port bot. Both spells are still in game. Enjoy RPG.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Good for you then. You can still be a vending machine and port bot. Both spells are still in game. Enjoy RPG.
    You are right, it's one of the last remains of what once was a remarkable RPG, and I still get to enjoy those perks

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    TBC is my favourite expansion, pretty good class balance (at least by 2.4) with every niche filled and each spec having a place in a raid with some fun classes (Fury/Arms Warrior), great lore and just balance between modern and classic wow.. That said though TBC was crucially flawed in terms of raid design that greatly favoured ranged classes, especially pre Black Temple. To the extent that if gear distribution was not an issue you would just fill the raid with all ranged aside from an Enhance shaman in the tank group for threat, and you would roflstomp the raids.

    Naturally if we had TBC coming we would have the same discussion about changing stuff, there are always flaws to be found.



    All the gradual improvements is how we ended up at Legion, it's the opposite of what people want with Classic. That's kinda the point, to reverse all of the changes, big and small and just have the unrefined original version of the game. As soon as you go down the route of changing one thing you can easily get the ball rolling and end up with a bastardised modern version of Vanilla that is very different from the original game as a result.

    Nobody is forcing you to play it, let it be what it is.
    TBC also was very short on content once you finished rep grinds. (In todays world of consumers, anyway)
    The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's to late to stop reading it.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Good for you then. You can still be a vending machine and port bot. Both spells are still in game. Enjoy RPG.
    Well, I suppose you haven't noticed the 6000 portals to everywhere the game now has in it.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    b) If they want Ferals to be Jack of all Trades as per mid Vanilla, then have talents to support. Ie allow Feral to cast Resto and Innervate in forms. This can be balanced in PVP by simply not allowing Feral Casting when PVP flagged.
    Are you insane? A huge enjoyment of classic wow is to use all of your abilities, in unorthodox manners as you see fit. Limiting the use of abilities whenever you are pvp flagged, is incredibly poor game design. It's just a cheap cop out, a blatant admission that you are so bad at game design and balancing that you have to curtain the use of abilities in certain situations.

    Furthermore, due to how classic wow plays out. The ability to have one particularly dedicated druid or paladin have the ability to heal, tank and dps is incredibly broken. In the context of legion wow, it's meaningless if a paladin can DPS as good as a rogue, tank as good as a warrior or heal as good as a priest if they are wearing appropriate gear. Because in Legion wow, the Rogue can just log off and log on his priest and the warrior can log off and log on his mage.

    In classic wow. There is no option to simply log off your main to one of your 10 max level alts and gear them up over the weekend. In the context of classic wow, it's important that the paladin can never compete with a rogue in similar gear levels. In classic wow, you have one main and having one character the ability to perform every role within even 85% of that of the ''pure classes'' is unfair and broken.
    Last edited by MMKing; 2018-01-23 at 11:29 PM.
    Patch 1.12, and not one step further!

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by MMKing View Post
    Are you insane? A huge enjoyment of classic wow is to use all of your abilities, in unorthodox manners as you see fit. Limiting the use of abilities whenever you are pvp flagged, is incredibly poor game design. It's just a cheap cop out, a blatant admission that you are so bad at game design and balancing that you have to curtain the use of abilities in certain situations.
    You obviously jumped the gun because I was proposing a new talent that lets you cast heals while in forms for Feral Raiding (as Utility DPS) while disabling that talent in PVP, so that casting heals will break you out of forms as normal. I don't mean prevent all casting period. I'm literally presenting a situation where PVE gets a talent tweak that works only for PVE and not PVP because adding it globally has many consequences.

    The ability to have one particularly dedicated druid or paladin have the ability to heal, tank and dps is incredibly broken
    Then Vanilla is already broken because that's already how it works. A Ret Paladin as it exists right now does his damage through auto attacks and waits for procs to deal his yellow damage, or cast heals in between. Look up Ret builds for Vanilla and you will see that there is plenty of room for them to cast heals already. The kicker? They just suck at doing any one thing well at a time. Same with Druids. Also Druids in Vanilla (AQ+ raid content) could bag different sets of gear and swap roles in fights. A healer with a few Feral talents and the right gear can offtank. This is all documented and all a part of Vanilla. The only thing a Feral can't do is tank bosses because they lack Defense gear, which means they can't avoid crushing blows and will die to RNG. This is Vanilla balance we're talking about - Gear as a Feral and you can offtank, can't tank bosses and maybe do some off-DPS when you aren't needed; but as a Hybrid Healer you can wear some higher armor gear and you can Off-tank just the same. There wasn't a lot of reason to go full Feral back in the day when the healer hybrid build had higher value in heals than the off-DPS and LOTP buff from full Feral.

    Also, there was more common BIS Tank/Resto gear than there was Tank/DPS Feral gear just because of the itemization back then. Whereas if you went full Feral, you would only have gear that let you be semi-good DPS and maybe offtank if you're lucky, and often no one ever needed more than one or two Ferals ever. Resto on the other hand was always in high demand, and it was easier to get in as a Healer Hybrid with the chance to off-tank. When I played, no one considered a pure Feral Offtank simply because there were always a wealth of Warriors with tank gear available.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2018-01-24 at 12:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    "Real" Demon Hunters don't work as a class in modern WoW
    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Please point out to me the player Demon Hunter who has Meta.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You obviously jumped the gun because I was proposing a new talent that lets you cast heals while in forms for Feral Raiding (as Utility DPS) while disabling that talent in PVP, so that casting heals will break you out of forms as normal. I don't mean prevent all casting period. I'm literally presenting a situation where PVE gets a talent tweak that works only for PVE and not PVP because adding it globally has many consequences.
    nvm i was wrong.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMKing View Post
    Are you insane? A huge enjoyment of classic wow is to use all of your abilities, in unorthodox manners as you see fit. Limiting the use of abilities whenever you are pvp flagged, is incredibly poor game design. It's just a cheap cop out, a blatant admission that you are so bad at game design and balancing that you have to curtain the use of abilities in certain situations.
    How do you explain CC deminishing? or polymorph lasting only 10 seconds in PvP in vanilla?

    I mean, not like blizzard themselves admit that they weren't taking pvp seriously when they designed the game, so broken stuff like this existed for a long time, before people got pissed. Now we basically have different sets of abilities for PvP and PvE and they work differently depending on your target
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2018-01-24 at 03:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mushkins View Post
    It seems like a lot of people want Blizzard to "re-balance" some classes/specs (people that, in my opinion, just don't really want Classic) in the likeness of TBC. And by "re-balancing" they simply mean buffing their dps in raids (which combined with the fact that hybrids were already good in PVP, will ruin PVP).
    Now, how they made classes in the Burning Crusade "balanced":
    - by adding new talents and abilities like, for example, Vampiric Touch for priest which increased dps and solved mana issues;
    - by giving to pure dps classes new PVP abilities to compensate for the increased dps of hybrids;
    - they added a ton of class/spec specific gear so hybrids were on the same gear level as others;
    - number of debuff slots was increased from 16 to 40, so raid leaders could invite more than 1 sp/boomy/or whatever.

    Implementing all these changes in Classic would require a complete redesigning/retuning of all dungeons and raids. And, as a result, we would get a completely different game.

    So, if you want classes to be "balanced" like in the Burning Crusade, just ask for the Burning Crusade servers. Leave Classic alone.
    The Burning Crusade? The expansion that added arena to the game, for which classes were balanced?

    The part of the game that Rob Pardo referred to as the biggest mistake? Ya no thanks.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazlofski View Post
    Explain to me the fun in inventory management regarding mount + pet slots instead of having a proper UI that stores them in there.

    Sounds to me like lack of technology back in the day rather than purposefully making inventory management obnoxious.
    Explain me the fun of having 4 30 slot bags filled with a bunch a grey items like pocket fluff? With all the QoL changes added to inventory management... bags are still full of crap.

    In vanilla you carried your alternate gear/resist sets in inventory as well... or like the fantasy would suggest, had to go to your bank to switch to another gearset. Bags were meaningful, inventory precious, items you carried meant more.

    That ADDED to why Classic was Classic and what made it great.


    I agree with OP... let patches roll out as they did back then... and eventually we will get to BC... then Wrath... then.. .well who cares after that?
    "And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!"

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    The Burning Crusade? The expansion that added arena to the game, for which classes were balanced?

    The part of the game that Rob Pardo referred to as the biggest mistake? Ya no thanks.
    I'm curious as to what about TBC he thinks makes it the biggest mistake. To me Flying Mounts and the pacing of the patches seem like the main blemishes. Arena gets harped on a lot, but I think that arena is fine. (Although I wonder if they'll make it into a separate game entirely)

  15. #135
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Projectmars View Post
    I'm curious as to what about TBC he thinks makes it the biggest mistake. To me Flying Mounts and the pacing of the patches seem like the main blemishes. Arena gets harped on a lot, but I think that arena is fine. (Although I wonder if they'll make it into a separate game entirely)
    It was arena... not TBC in its entirety. But if we balance classes in TBC around arena, and arena is seen as a failure... then perhaps the "TBC" model for class balance, isn't the best idea.

    People actually like vanilla for its class imbalance.

    Vanilla, has the closest thing to traditional fantasy game archetypes. Classes are SUPPOSED to have inherent strengths and weaknesses, not tools to deal with every situation.

    People don't like "pruning" but honestly, Legion has the closest thing to these traditional archetypes, since vanilla. They don't like things being taken away, and I understand that, it feels like you're losing something, rather than gaining class identity, archetype identity. The truth is, more care should have been taken when adding new abilities to begin with.
    Last edited by A dot Ham; 2018-01-24 at 05:35 PM.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    It was arena... not TBC in its entirety. But if we balance classes in TBC around arena, and arena is seen as a failure... then perhaps the "TBC" model for class balance, isn't the best idea.
    Seems like a fair criticism, and in an argument just on Class Balance then yeah, makes sense. (although I personally don't think Arena is a failure and could potentially do okay if separated entirely from WoW.)

  17. #137
    Banned A dot Ham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Projectmars View Post
    Seems like a fair criticism, and in an argument just on Class Balance then yeah, makes sense. (although I personally don't think Arena is a failure and could potentially do okay if separated entirely from WoW.)
    I think that was Pardo's point. It's damn near impossible to get class balance for PvP and maintain necessary performance levels in PvE.

    I was really excited for Legion because of them finally splitting the 2... unfortunately as we have seen... their commitment to that cause has been clearly lacking.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Rurts View Post
    Well, obviously. I mean, millions of people played even back then, so it's not like it was insurmountable, but also not a "non-issue" - you had to be pretty mindful of your inventory back then, esp if you had to collect some quest items, go farming herbs etc. It's one of the many things that I hope will stay true to the original, because I want Classic to be as close to Vanilla as Blizz can do, because for me it's a museum piece. But looooooots of whining is to be expected from people who will be shocked to see they have like 30 slots on their char total for a long time (it's not like mooncloth bags were cheap from the start) and have to deal with low-count stacks of profession items, quest items, reagents, oh my.
    It acually is a "non-issue". Since it's true that you had to be mindful of your inventory. The economy were also balanced around that. Over time as the expansions added larger bags, the economy also became more unstable. Mostly due to more effective gold producing activities but also due to the player being able to carry more items.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulatomten View Post
    Sure you can choose to have multiple kinds of mounts. But realisticly you only used one. You maybe had a few non-battle companions but you realisticly only bring one, to deal with the limited bagspace you had.
    Don't tell me how to play my game, i had 4 pets in my bags. And after blizzard swapped costs on mounts and riding around people stopped having just 1 mount
    Sorry, if you took it as if i were attacking you?

    But that's acually what you when you have restricted bagspace. Afterall increasing the bagspace whould tip the balance of the economy which the expansions suffered from.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by A dot Ham View Post
    The Burning Crusade? The expansion that added arena to the game, for which classes were balanced?

    The part of the game that Rob Pardo referred to as the biggest mistake? Ya no thanks.
    You could argue that WoW's arena system could be a failure. Personally the only failure with WoW's arena system is that gear itself is a factor at all.
    I mean, a whole new game genres grew from the foundation of the Wow Arena system, it's hard to think of arenas being WoW's biggest failure.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulatomten View Post
    Sorry, if you took it as if i were attacking you?

    But that's acually what you when you have restricted bagspace. Afterall increasing the bagspace whould tip the balance of the economy which the expansions suffered from.
    Nah, it's just common saying about thinking that all people play the game the same way.

    I don't think so, the more impactfull thing is increasing stack sizes of mats. Most level 60 players already have their 14 slots, the only time when bagspace is the problem is leveling, when you have to keep your keys, quest items, reagents (yes, because when you level you also farm shit, while also being flooded with raptor meat/boar meat/turtle meat and other crap that you can't use right away). Bag space have no effect on economy, because dedicated farmers or *cough* bots *cought* always empty their bags completely before doing a farming run.

    If anything, expanding your bags is #1 priority for leveling, that's why tailoring is so fucking powerful when making money early (until blizzard made 6-8-10 slots drop like crazy somewhere in tbc and private servers also kinda turn it up to 11, so by the time you reach level 6 you are fully equipped with at least 6 slots)
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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