Don't ask for balancing classes. Ask for the Burning Crusade.

[Aliven]

Well not really sure who would expect that from classic WoW. I imagine some might, which is just ridiculous. However, personally I wouldn't mind seeing TBC class enhancements in classic. Just don't get confused with people that want to see some TBC style adjustments added and those who may want to turn it into the slop we have today.

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It was actually somewhat fun being a vending machine and public transportation during TBC. I actually got a lot of tips as well (thats when gold was worth something). It was part of the class and the RPG element of the game at the time.
And to add to this, notice how that RPG class element has vanished from current WoW. Sad.

Good for you then. You can still be a vending machine and port bot. Both spells are still in game. Enjoy RPG.

[Soon-TM]

Good for you then. You can still be a vending machine and port bot. Both spells are still in game. Enjoy RPG.

You are right, it's one of the last remains of what once was a remarkable RPG, and I still get to enjoy those perks

[Vynestra]

TBC is my favourite expansion, pretty good class balance (at least by 2.4) with every niche filled and each spec having a place in a raid with some fun classes (Fury/Arms Warrior), great lore and just balance between modern and classic wow.. That said though TBC was crucially flawed in terms of raid design that greatly favoured ranged classes, especially pre Black Temple. To the extent that if gear distribution was not an issue you would just fill the raid with all ranged aside from an Enhance shaman in the tank group for threat, and you would roflstomp the raids.

Naturally if we had TBC coming we would have the same discussion about changing stuff, there are always flaws to be found.



All the gradual improvements is how we ended up at Legion, it's the opposite of what people want with Classic. That's kinda the point, to reverse all of the changes, big and small and just have the unrefined original version of the game. As soon as you go down the route of changing one thing you can easily get the ball rolling and end up with a bastardised modern version of Vanilla that is very different from the original game as a result.

Nobody is forcing you to play it, let it be what it is.

TBC also was very short on content once you finished rep grinds. (In todays world of consumers, anyway)

[Demithio]

Good for you then. You can still be a vending machine and port bot. Both spells are still in game. Enjoy RPG.

Well, I suppose you haven't noticed the 6000 portals to everywhere the game now has in it.

[MMKing]

b) If they want Ferals to be Jack of all Trades as per mid Vanilla, then have talents to support. Ie allow Feral to cast Resto and Innervate in forms. This can be balanced in PVP by simply not allowing Feral Casting when PVP flagged.

Are you insane? A huge enjoyment of classic wow is to use all of your abilities, in unorthodox manners as you see fit. Limiting the use of abilities whenever you are pvp flagged, is incredibly poor game design. It's just a cheap cop out, a blatant admission that you are so bad at game design and balancing that you have to curtain the use of abilities in certain situations.

Furthermore, due to how classic wow plays out. The ability to have one particularly dedicated druid or paladin have the ability to heal, tank and dps is incredibly broken. In the context of legion wow, it's meaningless if a paladin can DPS as good as a rogue, tank as good as a warrior or heal as good as a priest if they are wearing appropriate gear. Because in Legion wow, the Rogue can just log off and log on his priest and the warrior can log off and log on his mage.

In classic wow. There is no option to simply log off your main to one of your 10 max level alts and gear them up over the weekend. In the context of classic wow, it's important that the paladin can never compete with a rogue in similar gear levels. In classic wow, you have one main and having one character the ability to perform every role within even 85% of that of the ''pure classes'' is unfair and broken.

[Thimagryn]

Are you insane? A huge enjoyment of classic wow is to use all of your abilities, in unorthodox manners as you see fit. Limiting the use of abilities whenever you are pvp flagged, is incredibly poor game design. It's just a cheap cop out, a blatant admission that you are so bad at game design and balancing that you have to curtain the use of abilities in certain situations.

You obviously jumped the gun because I was proposing a new talent that lets you cast heals while in forms for Feral Raiding (as Utility DPS) while disabling that talent in PVP, so that casting heals will break you out of forms as normal. I don't mean prevent all casting period. I'm literally presenting a situation where PVE gets a talent tweak that works only for PVE and not PVP because adding it globally has many consequences.

The ability to have one particularly dedicated druid or paladin have the ability to heal, tank and dps is incredibly broken

Then Vanilla is already broken because that's already how it works. A Ret Paladin as it exists right now does his damage through auto attacks and waits for procs to deal his yellow damage, or cast heals in between. Look up Ret builds for Vanilla and you will see that there is plenty of room for them to cast heals already. The kicker? They just suck at doing any one thing well at a time. Same with Druids. Also Druids in Vanilla (AQ+ raid content) could bag different sets of gear and swap roles in fights. A healer with a few Feral talents and the right gear can offtank. This is all documented and all a part of Vanilla. The only thing a Feral can't do is tank bosses because they lack Defense gear, which means they can't avoid crushing blows and will die to RNG. This is Vanilla balance we're talking about - Gear as a Feral and you can offtank, can't tank bosses and maybe do some off-DPS when you aren't needed; but as a Hybrid Healer you can wear some higher armor gear and you can Off-tank just the same. There wasn't a lot of reason to go full Feral back in the day when the healer hybrid build had higher value in heals than the off-DPS and LOTP buff from full Feral.

Also, there was more common BIS Tank/Resto gear than there was Tank/DPS Feral gear just because of the itemization back then. Whereas if you went full Feral, you would only have gear that let you be semi-good DPS and maybe offtank if you're lucky, and often no one ever needed more than one or two Ferals ever. Resto on the other hand was always in high demand, and it was easier to get in as a Healer Hybrid with the chance to off-tank. When I played, no one considered a pure Feral Offtank simply because there were always a wealth of Warriors with tank gear available.

[Xecks]

You obviously jumped the gun because I was proposing a new talent that lets you cast heals while in forms for Feral Raiding (as Utility DPS) while disabling that talent in PVP, so that casting heals will break you out of forms as normal. I don't mean prevent all casting period. I'm literally presenting a situation where PVE gets a talent tweak that works only for PVE and not PVP because adding it globally has many consequences.

nvm i was wrong.

[Charge me Doctor]

Are you insane? A huge enjoyment of classic wow is to use all of your abilities, in unorthodox manners as you see fit. Limiting the use of abilities whenever you are pvp flagged, is incredibly poor game design. It's just a cheap cop out, a blatant admission that you are so bad at game design and balancing that you have to curtain the use of abilities in certain situations.

How do you explain CC deminishing? or polymorph lasting only 10 seconds in PvP in vanilla?

I mean, not like blizzard themselves admit that they weren't taking pvp seriously when they designed the game, so broken stuff like this existed for a long time, before people got pissed. Now we basically have different sets of abilities for PvP and PvE and they work differently depending on your target

[A dot Ham]

It seems like a lot of people want Blizzard to "re-balance" some classes/specs (people that, in my opinion, just don't really want Classic) in the likeness of TBC. And by "re-balancing" they simply mean buffing their dps in raids (which combined with the fact that hybrids were already good in PVP, will ruin PVP).
Now, how they made classes in the Burning Crusade "balanced":
- by adding new talents and abilities like, for example, Vampiric Touch for priest which increased dps and solved mana issues;
- by giving to pure dps classes new PVP abilities to compensate for the increased dps of hybrids;
- they added a ton of class/spec specific gear so hybrids were on the same gear level as others;
- number of debuff slots was increased from 16 to 40, so raid leaders could invite more than 1 sp/boomy/or whatever.

Implementing all these changes in Classic would require a complete redesigning/retuning of all dungeons and raids. And, as a result, we would get a completely different game.

So, if you want classes to be "balanced" like in the Burning Crusade, just ask for the Burning Crusade servers. Leave Classic alone.

The Burning Crusade? The expansion that added arena to the game, for which classes were balanced?

The part of the game that Rob Pardo referred to as the biggest mistake? Ya no thanks.

[Maudib]

Explain to me the fun in inventory management regarding mount + pet slots instead of having a proper UI that stores them in there.

Sounds to me like lack of technology back in the day rather than purposefully making inventory management obnoxious.

Explain me the fun of having 4 30 slot bags filled with a bunch a grey items like pocket fluff? With all the QoL changes added to inventory management... bags are still full of crap.

In vanilla you carried your alternate gear/resist sets in inventory as well... or like the fantasy would suggest, had to go to your bank to switch to another gearset. Bags were meaningful, inventory precious, items you carried meant more.

That ADDED to why Classic was Classic and what made it great.


I agree with OP... let patches roll out as they did back then... and eventually we will get to BC... then Wrath... then.. .well who cares after that?

[Projectmars]

The Burning Crusade? The expansion that added arena to the game, for which classes were balanced?

The part of the game that Rob Pardo referred to as the biggest mistake? Ya no thanks.

I'm curious as to what about TBC he thinks makes it the biggest mistake. To me Flying Mounts and the pacing of the patches seem like the main blemishes. Arena gets harped on a lot, but I think that arena is fine. (Although I wonder if they'll make it into a separate game entirely)

[A dot Ham]

I'm curious as to what about TBC he thinks makes it the biggest mistake. To me Flying Mounts and the pacing of the patches seem like the main blemishes. Arena gets harped on a lot, but I think that arena is fine. (Although I wonder if they'll make it into a separate game entirely)

It was arena... not TBC in its entirety. But if we balance classes in TBC around arena, and arena is seen as a failure... then perhaps the "TBC" model for class balance, isn't the best idea.

People actually like vanilla for its class imbalance.

Vanilla, has the closest thing to traditional fantasy game archetypes. Classes are SUPPOSED to have inherent strengths and weaknesses, not tools to deal with every situation.

People don't like "pruning" but honestly, Legion has the closest thing to these traditional archetypes, since vanilla. They don't like things being taken away, and I understand that, it feels like you're losing something, rather than gaining class identity, archetype identity. The truth is, more care should have been taken when adding new abilities to begin with.

[Projectmars]

It was arena... not TBC in its entirety. But if we balance classes in TBC around arena, and arena is seen as a failure... then perhaps the "TBC" model for class balance, isn't the best idea.

Seems like a fair criticism, and in an argument just on Class Balance then yeah, makes sense. (although I personally don't think Arena is a failure and could potentially do okay if separated entirely from WoW.)

[A dot Ham]

Seems like a fair criticism, and in an argument just on Class Balance then yeah, makes sense. (although I personally don't think Arena is a failure and could potentially do okay if separated entirely from WoW.)

I think that was Pardo's point. It's damn near impossible to get class balance for PvP and maintain necessary performance levels in PvE.

I was really excited for Legion because of them finally splitting the 2... unfortunately as we have seen... their commitment to that cause has been clearly lacking.

[Zulatomten]

Well, obviously. I mean, millions of people played even back then, so it's not like it was insurmountable, but also not a "non-issue" - you had to be pretty mindful of your inventory back then, esp if you had to collect some quest items, go farming herbs etc. It's one of the many things that I hope will stay true to the original, because I want Classic to be as close to Vanilla as Blizz can do, because for me it's a museum piece. But looooooots of whining is to be expected from people who will be shocked to see they have like 30 slots on their char total for a long time (it's not like mooncloth bags were cheap from the start) and have to deal with low-count stacks of profession items, quest items, reagents, oh my.

It acually is a "non-issue". Since it's true that you had to be mindful of your inventory. The economy were also balanced around that. Over time as the expansions added larger bags, the economy also became more unstable. Mostly due to more effective gold producing activities but also due to the player being able to carry more items.

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Sure you can choose to have multiple kinds of mounts. But realisticly you only used one. You maybe had a few non-battle companions but you realisticly only bring one, to deal with the limited bagspace you had.

Don't tell me how to play my game, i had 4 pets in my bags. And after blizzard swapped costs on mounts and riding around people stopped having just 1 mount

Sorry, if you took it as if i were attacking you?

But that's acually what you when you have restricted bagspace. Afterall increasing the bagspace whould tip the balance of the economy which the expansions suffered from.

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The Burning Crusade? The expansion that added arena to the game, for which classes were balanced?

The part of the game that Rob Pardo referred to as the biggest mistake? Ya no thanks.

You could argue that WoW's arena system could be a failure. Personally the only failure with WoW's arena system is that gear itself is a factor at all.
I mean, a whole new game genres grew from the foundation of the Wow Arena system, it's hard to think of arenas being WoW's biggest failure.

[Charge me Doctor]

Sorry, if you took it as if i were attacking you?

But that's acually what you when you have restricted bagspace. Afterall increasing the bagspace whould tip the balance of the economy which the expansions suffered from.

Nah, it's just common saying about thinking that all people play the game the same way.

I don't think so, the more impactfull thing is increasing stack sizes of mats. Most level 60 players already have their 14 slots, the only time when bagspace is the problem is leveling, when you have to keep your keys, quest items, reagents (yes, because when you level you also farm shit, while also being flooded with raptor meat/boar meat/turtle meat and other crap that you can't use right away). Bag space have no effect on economy, because dedicated farmers or *cough* bots *cought* always empty their bags completely before doing a farming run.

If anything, expanding your bags is #1 priority for leveling, that's why tailoring is so fucking powerful when making money early (until blizzard made 6-8-10 slots drop like crazy somewhere in tbc and private servers also kinda turn it up to 11, so by the time you reach level 6 you are fully equipped with at least 6 slots)