Patch 7.3.5 - Zone Scaling and XP Changes

[Squiggit]

its the fact its an issue we face yes, but now with more reasons given for higher level players to be trafficing the same zone as lower levels it will only make it countless times worse and more constant for months to come, making less lower level players want to go out into the world and quest with this inflated amount of players that can easily kill and camp them becoming a more constant thing

You can just as easily flip that around and argue that having players spread out over more zones by broadening the choice you have for what zone to play at any given level will make that less likely, not more.

In any case it can't be any worse than leveling in legion zones mid xpac.

[Count Zero]

Because the mobs are scaling up to you, you ought to be getting more XP per kill which might offset the additional XP requirement a bit. Currently it's like one dungeon per level and almost a new dungeon unlock every level (in heirlooms) so maybe have to run each one twice now (which is actually good for efficiency as half the group may actually have seen the dungeon before lol).

Since IIRC the dungeon finder now offers a much larger range of dungeons, if I queue as say a level 50 healer for a level 20 dungeon, I think the mobs will look like level 50 to me, but will the other players still be level 20 making healing trivial?

Also less traveling. Instead of abandoning a zone when you outlevel it, you just keep on trucking.

And the dungeons will work like timewalking, where you could have an actual 80 and an actual 110 in the same BC dungeon but both be "70". I don't know how exactly that works but it does.

[Deadite]

80-90 will be a godsend now that all characters have pandaria flying.

This gem is by far the best thing in this patch. Kinda glad i missed out on the bidding war i was having for the Tome the other day.

[Nestalim]

Does WoD still needs the achievment for flying mount ?

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

You can just as easily flip that around and argue that having players spread out over more zones by broadening the choice you have for what zone to play at any given level will make that less likely, not more.

In any case it can't be any worse than leveling in legion zones mid xpac.

Its just that I wanted my point I was making to be made properly and understood. ..The people debating what I was saying seemed to be under the assumption I meant low level players and level 100-110 players being those in the zones killing them..

..When all I meant was players of the proper level to start the zone being there, while players much higher in the zone's level scale..like say 35-60 zones..would be there in much higher numbers than you would currently see of players of such a level difference to thus make the chances of and surely the case of players ganking those many levels lower than them, griefing and camping them a much more common happening.

I'm sure you can agree with that fact that having zones be of benefit to much wider spectrums of levels of characters (more so than previously with those reasons being collecting resources/herbs/ore/going to dungeons and in some rare cases doing quests for achievements) will bring this exact thing to come about as these characters 10-20-30-40 levels apart from eachother are being brought into sight of one another as they share the same quests, mobs and the like.

Do you not agree?

[Nestalim]

So no more stat on Heirloom.

Guess I will never pex again.

[Heeresman]

Does WoD still needs the achievment for flying mount ?

Yep:

Expert Riding now unlocks the ability to fly in all zones prior to Draenor.
Draenor Pathfinder and Broken Isles Pathfinder, Part Two still need to be completed to unlock flying.

Front page on 2018-01-16 10:39 PM

[rda]

I don't care about the XP changes, but mob health changes are terrible especially in old raids.

Who the hell thought this was a good idea?? It's stupid. It adds nothing, it just makes things slow and tedious and sometimes unsoloable for higher-levels (due to stupid mechanics where you have to DPS fast else there would be some recovery / bubble / whatever).

[RamGuy]

Why are Northrend and TBC areas in the same level range?
Feels pretty wierd to go to TBC after Northrend.

Overall, I like the change a lot.
Before the change you couldn't even finish one quest hub before all quests turned green.

Its more or less the same point behind it as with the rest of the levelling scaling. To give people a choice on what zones they would prefer to level in at any given time (with some restrictions). If you level with heirlooms you will still "out-level" the content by the means that you won't need to do all that many zones before you reach the next expansion. You won't be needing to do all zones in Outland (Burning Crusade) or Northrend (Wrath of the Lich King) in order to reach a high enough level so you can move to Mists of Pandaria etc..

So now you can decide yourself if you want to dig into Outland or just skip directly to Northrend. This is a great thing if you ask me as the levelling in Outland is kinda slow and dull to be honest. I would much rather skip the XX amount of hours I would normally have to spend in Outland and instead spend those XX amount of hours in Northrend.

[Alkizon]

I'll just copy-past part of my answer from another thread:

open world scaling is incorrect implementation by definition (based on the rules of similar games design)

There is no theoretical justification for why it's happening in the game, which means that it goes against design of lore and role component (which should be the main universal measure of all innovations and implementations of design ideas in the game), but I think it's enough to say that this+ goes against progress and design of indivisible/solid/identical-for-all open world. This how that game was build and this how it works, this is basis. Balance is achieved through completely different ways. Give it a little time and people will just ask you to delete levels and bring up full toolkit from the beginning.

Some words about scaling instances here.

As for XP changes this is 1st of 2 justified ways to balance stuff
(it's pure mathematics, number of killed quest+side mobs and size of experience gained for a specific quest (all quests for this particular level, it's possible don't take into account (all-together, mean use just-one) only race initial locations, but they anyway were passed for the sake of reputation back then) - weighting coefficients of each of the quests and mobs are calculated based on this; it's certainly not so easy as it sounds, but...)

2nd is from gameplay part - strength (hp, str)/abilities/reasonableness of mobs alone and in a group behavior (AI).
(I don't take into account class features (system of talents and speed of character progression) here just because it's another area of design. It also has an influence in discussion, but I don't want to get into jungle of this offtopic, it should be discussed separately)

I can agree with meager bonus of experience from professions, but never with improper multipliers to increase experience (bonus for rest is only possible one), because they again goes against lore and role aspect of the game (they don't have theoretical justification).

ps. These are only ways, but someone whined and complained very long and methodically in consequence of which weighting coefficients began to lose their semantic significance, until they turned into Le... nothing.

ps2. By the way, addition of lower border requirements brought to naught joy of those who whined, because everything they wanted is an easy life whithout paying attention to basic design. Now it turned out that not only they, but also normal people became dissatisfied (it's some kind of funny thing that only new Blizzard can do)

[RamGuy]

I'm having a hard time following the logic and mathematics behind the claims of levelling not being slower with 7.3.5 compared to before.

Looking at numbers Blizzard have bumped the required amount of XP during levelling from 1-60 with about 50%. So even without scaling mobs, giving them larger health pools and whatnot that's a 50% increase in the amount of XP required during the first big portion of the levelling process.

And then we need to take into the account that they have bumped the health pools of mobs by a massive amount. We are talking 250%+. That's huge. Not only do they increase the health pools but they also nerf the heirlooms so they have reduced stats so not only does the mobs have 2-3x the amount of health, but you will also deal less damage compared to before. So mobs will take about 2,5-4x the amount of time to kill.

This is a huge and massive slow-down. And as its been confirmed on the PTR that every mob and quest will give you the same amount of XP as before, so there is no bump in XP gained during the levelling process this will go much slower. That's a given at this point, right?


You can't increase the overall XP required to level by 50% and make you spend 2,5-4x times longer killing mobs during levelling and expect it to take the same amount of time as before?

Some of this will of course be offloaded by the fact that level scaling will make so you would always be getting XP from mobs and quests that will be relevant for your level. Compared to pre-7.3.5, especially when levelling with heirlooms you would normally start to see grey mobs and quests half-way through a zone so the XP rewards from mobs and quests would decrease during the process and you won't be forced to travel from zone to zone as often. You also get a massive benefit from getting instant access to flying at level 60 that will work in both Outland, Northrend and Pandaria so you will be able to move much more efficiently in these zones from the get-go compared to before. But you will still spend 2,5-4x the amount of time doing anything in terms of killing mobs etc.. So it won't be able to completely balance it out.


Claims about levelling from 1-110 will only take a few hours (single digits amount of hours) longer post-7.3.5 compared to pre-7.3.5 seems folly. That massive increase in health pools combined with nerfing heirlooms will make a much larger impact. Most players will have to spend XX amount of hours longer to reacher level 110 after this update. There is no real doubt about it.


The "power-levelling" through dungeons won't be viable anymore either as doing dungeons will take much longer time due to the increased health pools and due to the nerf you won't be crazy over-powered so you want be able to pull half the dungeon and kill it in an instant as before.




Is this all bad? Not at all. The idea behind levelling scaling in older zones is something I've been asking for for a very long time. Levelling have been in a really bad place due to how bad the pacing have been, especially with heirlooms. Everything feels completely brain-dead and as a complete waste as you can't fully enjoy any zone or quest-line as you are out-levelling and out-phasing the content all the time. You are also crazy over-powered with heirlooms so you never feel challenged, you never have to care to learn your class, your rotation or anything. You simply need to mash one single button like 3-4 times tops and move on. You can pretty much pull a bunch of mobs and once and never feel threatened.

Giving us the level scaling so one can actually follow the story-lines within zones without starting to see grey mobs and quests is great. Nerfing the heirlooms and increasing health pools isn't all that bad in and out of itself either. Its a good thing to ensure that the content actually feels "normal" and not like a face-roll easy mode as it has been for years.


BUT! They should never have increased the amount of XP required for levelling and they should have balanced the XP gained from mobs and quests to compensate for the additional time spent on killing mobs and finishing quests. The last thing the game needs with its 110 levels, soon to be 120 is for the levelling to be even slower than before. Sure it will feel better and more meaningful but it shouldn't be made slower..



I can't help but feel that this is all about pushing players towards longer subscriptions times and character boosts. So you don't like the slower levelling experience? Well purchase a boosts. We have these new skinned races coming, I bet you would love to have one of those, don't you? Well, if wont spend the additional amount of hours that is now required to level it to max please buy our character boost. Oh, so you are wiling to spend the extra time levelling? Please make sure to add another month to your subscription as you will be spending a long time reaching level 110.

And about those "new" races? They don't give you anything other than a re-skin of your character. There is no new story-line associated with them. There are no new zones or content. They are pretty much re-skinned Trolls, Elfs and Draenei that we put together in to time. Enjoy! And yeah, you will need to play-through and grind in Legion if you haven't already in order to actually unlock them...

[Nestalim]

Yep:



Front page on 2018-01-16 10:39 PM

This is by fact simply unhealthy.

[RamGuy]

In terms of the zone scaling, why aren't they more consistent? Lots of zones are level 10-60, but you have some that are 15-60, 25-60, 30-60, 35-60 and 40-60. This becomes somewhat confusing. They should have made some equal brackets. Like having all starting zones being 1-20 and the rest at 1-60 or perhaps toss in some "mid-range" ones being 20-40 and the higher ones being 30-60 or something. Having all these different ranges seems unnecessary.

[Heeresman]

This is by fact simply unhealthy.

There are worse things in life i think.

[rda]

For perspective:

The changes make instances like Dire Maul wings take 45+ minutes. For some instances, it is longer. There is no added challenge except mana management for healers. Fights just take longer. Not sure what's good about it.

But the real disaster is in raids. Whatever your gear level, there is a tier after which old raids will start feeling progressively more tedious than they are now. And some raids with mechanics that require high DPS (to avoid something despawning or whatever) that you could solo yesterday simply become unsoloable.

They have to undo the scaling at least in raids, and preferably tone it down hard in instances. It isn't good.

[RamGuy]

I have to agree, bumping health on bosses in older RAID's is simply pointless. Barely anyone is doing older RAID's for anything other than farming for transmogrification and people tend to do that solo. Some people also likes the nostalgia of simply going back and through some old RAID's.

Making this take much longer and making a lot of encounters impossible to solo servers no real purpose. Whats the point of scaling this content? There is no-one who will actually benefit from this. Do they expect players to form RAID-groups while levelling and start doing old RAID-content?

- - - Updated - - -

The massive bump to mobs health in general is not all that meaningful either. Unless they make the mobs hit harder in order to provide a bigger challenge while levelling whats the real point? According to people on the PTR its simply a buff to the health pools and nothing else. So 90% of the mobs you kill still don't provide much of a challenge, it just takes three times the amount of time killing each mob. What real purpose does that serve other than slowing things down for no apparent reason?

[Amagh]

For perspective:

The changes make instances like Dire Maul wings take 45+ minutes. For some instances, it is longer. There is no added challenge except mana management for healers. Fights just take longer. Not sure what's good about it.

But the real disaster is in raids. Whatever your gear level, there is a tier after which old raids will start feeling progressively more tedious than they are now. And some raids with mechanics that require high DPS (to avoid something despawning or whatever) that you could solo yesterday simply become unsoloable.

They have to undo the scaling at least in raids, and preferably tone it down hard in instances. It isn't good.

I'm not sure I follow? I just tested Naxx 25, SoO 10HC and HFC25 and none of them scaled the mob health to mine. Are you referring to sub 110 classes soloing older raids? (Like level 70's soloing MC etc?) Infact in Naxx 25 the mobs were dropping like flies (Due to the damage boost you gain in Classic, BC, Wrath and Cata instances). Siege was a breeze and even Hellfire seemed trivial.

So I dont understand the "disaster" in raids. Except if you're talking about soloing prior to the level cap... Then in that case it's not even a major problem. That seems like a total niché and the easiest solution is to just outlevel the instance untill you can brute force it.

And if you're a level 70 twink I should probably remind you that soloing Classic raids wasnt exactly possible in BC. IIRC even with Sunwell gear places like Naxx still took 5-10 people to clear. And T1/T2 took at minimum of 5.

[Lilbruz]

I very very rarely complain about anything in WoW...I basically just play the game as it is, and have fun with it...

But the health scaling in old raids in 7.3 is THE most stupid, unnecessary and silly change they have made in years. I was never a huge fan of scaling, but it wasnt really for me as I already basically had at least one of each class at max level. But when you wanted to grind some old mats, mounts or transmogs in the old outside world, it was only a little annoying to have to kill same level mobs.

But 341% more health in Pandaria raids - where I just started farming Elegon on 12 max level toons - is a change so stupid that I really dont think Im gonna even bother with that mount anymore. Before 7.3, I could do the whole raid on a toon in 15-20 mins depending on my toons gear (I dont raid on any toon, so I just have WQ and World Boss level gear, so 910-935ish). Now, It just took almost 10 minutes to do the first 3 bosses...Over are the days you could just burn them down and not worry about mechanics and phases, but now, you will have to go through that.

Whats the fucking point of that honestly? I mean, Im all for CURRENT content to be CURRENT hard - thats fine. But why the ever living hell do we now have to spend 3-4 times the time in old raids?! Does ANYONE that do old raids for transmogs, mounts etc do like this change?! I really curious

EDIT: And yes, I know this is a minor thing as it "just takes a little more time", but its pointless time I could be spending doing something else in the game, OR spending on the next toon to grind for a mount or whatever

[Alkizon]

Amagh
I'm not sure I follow? I just tested Naxx 25, SoO 10HC and HFC25 and none of them scaled the mob health to mine. Are you referring to sub 110 classes soloing older raids? (Like level 70's soloing MC etc?) Infact in Naxx 25 the mobs were dropping like flies (Due to the damage boost you gain in Classic, BC, Wrath and Cata instances). Siege was a breeze and even Hellfire seemed trivial.

So I dont understand the "disaster" in raids. Except if you're talking about soloing prior to the level cap... Then in that case it's not even a major problem. That seems like a total niché and the easiest solution is to just outlevel the instance untill you can brute force it.

And if you're a level 70 twink I should probably remind you that soloing Classic raids wasnt exactly possible in BC. IIRC even with Sunwell gear places like Naxx still took 5-10 people to clear. And T1/T2 took at minimum of 5.

I think it wasn't about scaling, but about stat squish and mobs str/hp. Problem here isn't that they became more hard, but because they became less profitable before (in time when they were "easy" and due to this), and consequently ratio of labor сost to profit will change significantly after this implementation. Something like this.

I'm not saying that this is true, just only guess.

Edit: it's look like forum says that raids and dungeons scales too. I thought that stat squish is only reason, because raids and instances (heroic mode) always have been at max level within expansion, but normals became gradually a little easier for passage after level-up (they're part of open world progression system for current expansion). Khm, I'm not sure about what I think about it. It's look like I don't like it this way for normals, but heroics anyway have max-expansion lvl, which means that I don't like it. Such stuff put damage into open world progression system for current expansion.

Yeah! I decided: hard stats manipulation (squish) is good, scaling (flexible) is bad. Exceptions are time travel, scenarios (+ special class ones and story, which don't give any other special awards except the plot, awards/items shouldn't scale (by the way about loot rules), Legion's item system (flex stats, germs of this were already in WoD, but who cares anyway) - inappropriate) could be Pandaria-way challenges.

[ldev]

Damn blizzard, you were so close to make me want to resubscribe and level a bunch of alts....

old content scales max to 60 - shit
min level requirements for zones - shit
one draenor zone is 98-100 - does it even has scaling? the fuck