The Alliance defeated Garrosh at the end of Mist.

[Jester Joe]

Because you're an alliance player and didn't know that these "prisoners" didn't pop up until SoO and neither does this point have anything to do with how these Orcs wouldn't fight the alliance if given another chance.

They were there as soon as the rebellion started technically.
Do you think we were building up outside of Orgrimmar during Escalation while nothing was happening inside?

Lorewise, you weren't allowed in Orgrimmar until after SoO was done.

Rebellion happened fairly quick and to many it would look like Voljin was an usurper who just went around the barrens killing Orcs like crazy.
Every Orc had Korkron gear? The fighting above ground only involved 1/3 of the city at best and even below ground you have normal Horde soldiers standing with Nazgrim and later with the Horde

We KILLED the orcs that stood with Nazgrim. They did not suddenly flop back over.

And another faulty claim on my argument you got there, I never said "every orc".

Do you... seriously think the Orc population is like 20-30 orcs? Do you seriously think all the Orcs in Orgrimmar got on a boat and went to Pandaria?
I mean this point alone just makes it harder to go on with you if seriously believe the nonsense you just did.

That's like taking Game of Thrones and saying the guards at the gates of Kingslanding knows that Cersei has a giant zombie guarding her...

I did enjoy this back and forth for a bit, but I can't take it serious anymore if you honestly believe the population of a town or city is what's in game.

So...you put a claim in my mouth, and use that as a reason to dismiss what I said?

Not only that, but you're taking it horribly out of context.

Combine the Theramore citizens+the Horde leaders rebelling+Garrosh's propaganda+a decent amount of Orcs leaving Org to side with the rebels, there's no way the "average orc" didn't know what was going on.

[Terongor]

There's no noticeable shift between Cata and MoP. The most relevant one was between WotLK and Cata, given all the shit Garrosh went through in Northrend and the change of his fighting style once he got Gorehowl.



He was never shown to be better at dual-wielding. Yes, he was surely accustomed to that but given his superior warrior prowess compared to the average orc (great enough to push him to the position of Chieftain back in Nagrand despite his crippling depression) he was probably quite proficient with two-handed weapons as well. If that wasn't the case, he would have surely chosen the set of weapons he was the most skilled with to face a death challenge against one of the most fearsome warriors ever.



What Baine lacks in experience he compensates with a way younger, stronger and more vigorous body compared to the 106 years old body of Cairne. The "alternate" Baine coming from another dimension during the War Crimes events claimed the mantle of Warchief by literally tearing Garrosh part with his bare hands. As it usually works with the rest of his race, the bull is placid as long you don't give it reasons to become quite angry.

Well during wotlk prepatch Garrosh and Thrall fought an Mak'gora and thrall had an lead on it, but in WoD Garrosh kicked Thralls ass in it before Thrall chose to use elements from this we can see wotlk-mop Garrosh had his skills raise. Before that mak'gora between Cairne and Garrosh, it would seem Garrosh had only used two one-handed weapons which still gives him experience on some from, but first time we see him use twohanded weapon was against Cairne. Many skilled swordmen say that if you don't use your skills even a year you skills will rust very much. So even if he had use two-handed weapons at that point before tbc it would have being three years. and we have to take account that Garrosh at earliest started fighting 9-10 years after the opening of the dark portal(because of redbox) and he me thrall at the year 26 and he at that point he dualwielded.

Also he might have chosen that weapon just because it was his fathers old weapon and as a weapon it was better not because he was better using it. Baine could have had that huge power because of pure rage and we don't know how he caught Garrosh at that timeline. Also Magnataur could rip either one of them to two pieces it wouldn't still make him a skilled fighter.

[Mehrunes]

OK, I know this thread is a few days old, but I got here from Zulkan's new sig and Jester Joe's posts were too good to pass up.

I mean, I would have agreed up until you were saying Sylvanas could just have her valkyr swoop through rezzing things.

I'm pretty sure that-

1) It takes time to rez someone from the dead, it's not as quick as just flying by.

Shown to be extremely short in Tirisfal, Silverpine and WPL.

2) It takes energy to also do so, the Valkyr can't just keep rezzing nonstop

They were ressing hundreds daily at start of Cata.

3) Undead are prone to being brainless and violent when rezzed, it's possible that in rezzing so many, they'd try to attack the Horde too.

Truly mindless undead were a rare occurrence from what we've seen. There's the resurrection frenzy that's more common (especially given the circumstances in this context), but the blue post said people resurrected in that state can be directed by the person doing the resurrection. It mentioned nothing about the undead attacking the person who resurrected them.

4) Sylvanas most likely had her Valkyrs near her at the time, and we've killed Valkyrs before, you really think someone like Jaina would let them just swoop by without blasting them herself?

Sylvanas let loose only the minor Val'kyr on the city.

And I'm not quite sure I should even need to point out how it's not just a "simple arrow" that's going to work.

Arrows are fast. And Sylvanas doesn't shoot simple arrows.

Jaina, for all her flaws, is quite a powerful mage. I mean, she conjured up an entire bridge of ice just recently for us, you think she couldn't create a quick ice barrier to block an arrow? She's also froze an entire platoon of undead in one of the ICC dungeons, so you can't really claim "Oh that's a recent power".

Jaina for all her power couldn't do squat to one Thalen. Have Lor'themar tank and she's useless. Or, better yet, have Sylvanas silence her with her scream. She silenced Dar'khan when he was the only one linked to Sunwell's remaining power and was basically a Mage god. Jaina with her biggest combat feat being freezing Aethas or killing some unnamed mooks in surprise attack doesn't come anywhere close to that.

You are drastically downplaying the strength of the Alliance, while completely over estimating Sylvanas. There's a reason the Horde was willing to negotiate at that point. They knew they weren't getting out of there easily, if at all.

What? There was no negotiation at that point in time. Varian just declared something of no real value and the Horde leaders listened to his rant. The peace process ended with the Alliance ceding Horde Azshara for god's sake. Shows how mighty the Alliance was.

And without Velen and Malfurion, the rest of Alliance leaders are rather weak compared to the likes of Sylvanas or Thrall. Thrall withstood Jaina even when she was using the Focusing Iris. Without the Iris we go back to Thalen.

Jaina who's an extremely accomplished mage and commanded the Kirin Tor.

Jaina commanded the Kirin Tor only because of a prophecy. Most of her accomplishments are mass teleportation.

Genn, who did take on Sylvanas several times and she's never managed to kill him.

Several times? The first time his son used himself as human shield and died on the spot, so kudos to Genn on surviving that. Then their next meeting was in Stormheim where he stalked her like a creep across the entire zone with Sylvanas ignoring him, then almost died to poison if it wasn't for others bailing his unconscious ass, while Sylvanas was focused on her future teleporting away.

Tyrande, an accomplished archer and uh...priest hybrid?

Who's only real combat accomplishment is tanking Archimonde once when Elune gave her her blessing. Without Elune (or at least a Stormrage to bail her out) even flowing water beats her.

But really.
Sylvanas would take them all on somehow?

What defense do they have against sound that breaks bones? Or against Sylvanas turning incorporeal and flying through them, instantly killing them like in the BfA cinematic?

If Sylvanas tried to attacked them and get the jump, the Horde would not side with her.
If the Alliance tried attacking first, they'd already have their guard up and they're certainly not being facerolled by the Horde, nor would Sylvanas have had the jump on them.

How do you keep your guard up against an enemy whose most potent powers are expressed by sound? Especially ones that worked on someone stronger than anyone present on the Alliance side. Over 6 years earlier.

It's hard to say in the situation which had the upper hand based on that, but...considering Vol'jin did listen, and considering the Alliance did a tremendous amount of work assault Orgrimmar also, I would say odds are they had the upper hand overall.

Vol'jin listened to a guy who wanted to end the fight while making empty threats about hypothetical events in the future. The only thing that shows is that Varian was unwilling to fight at the moment.

Not even close to true. And I'm not going to bother continue to discuss this if you truly think that the Horde would have facestomped them there, because you're just being horribly bias at that point. It would have been a close fight, but the Alliance was the only one with an actual army that could hold Orgrimmar in that case, while having a platoon right in the same chambers. Skyfire flying around Orgrimmar which has no aerial defense because we took it out to help retake Orgrimmar.

Alliance was the only one with an actual army? Did you miss the Forsaken and Blood Elf fleet? Not to mention the majority of Orgrimmar's population being pro-rebellion, or the rebellion's forces from Kalimdor. And they had a platoon in the chambers? Did you miss the Orcs shielding Horde leaders from Alliance's sight? Also, all those mooks were human. There's a reason why Alliance didn't send human members of the 7th Legion to Gilneas. And as for Skyfire, first of all, the Horde has zeppelins, secondly, Skyfire was destroyed by mere bat riders. Good luck against a swarm of minor Val'kyr resurrecting the crew.

Wrong, as Jaina is still quite free to do whatever she wants.

Like crying in the corner after Sylvanas silenced and rendered her useless.

They were there as soon as the rebellion started technically.
Do you think we were building up outside of Orgrimmar during Escalation while nothing was happening inside?

Lorewise, you weren't allowed in Orgrimmar until after SoO was done.

Orcs were. Most Orcs ended up rebelling. Hell, most of Garrosh's followers were from Mag'har, Blackrock and Dragonmaw, i.e. those who joined way after the formation of the New Horde. Leaving the huge amount of Orcs that were around for the formation. There's no mention of this huge amount of Orcs being kicked out (where would they even stay?). Hell, in 5.3 Thrall decided to Orgrimmar to convince the Orcs. After the rebellion already started and the Kor'kron guards in the city started making negative comments about players from other Horde races.

[Goldielocks]

Except that Varian still threatened the Horde even if a Horde group killed him?

So you're completely wrong?

Jesus some people take this faction pride way too seriously. Calm the fuck down.

[Zulkhan]

Well during wotlk prepatch Garrosh and Thrall fought an Mak'gora and thrall had an lead on it, but in WoD Garrosh kicked Thralls ass in it before Thrall chose to use elements from this we can see wotlk-mop Garrosh had his skills raise.

Yeah but that duel occurred before Garrosh went to Northrend, not after.

Also he might have chosen that weapon just because it was his fathers old weapon and as a weapon it was better not because he was better using it.

Yeah but again, the duel in question was no joke. Garrosh knew the Mak'gora was to the death and was perfectly aware of Cairne's fame as a warrior. He wouldn't have realistically risked to face a similar challenge without being at his strongest. Let's not forget this guy thrown away Gorehowl in MoP and replaced it with Xal'atoh because it was more powerful, and it's not like Garrosh started to despise his father (again) he just didn't seem to cling at sentimentalism at the expense of being weaker in combat.

Baine could have had that huge power because of pure rage and we don't know how he caught Garrosh at that timeline.

I mean, of all races Tauren aren't really the kind for ambushes (unless they're Grimtotem). Ripping Garrosh apart was most likely the conclusion of a direct confrontation.

Also Magnataur could rip either one of them to two pieces it wouldn't still make him a skilled fighter.

Unlike Magnataur, a Tauren does not have the advantage of an abundantly bigger size compared to an Orc. It's not like Baine could grab Garrosh out of nowhere without the latter putting up a fight.

- - - Updated - - -

OK, I know this thread is a few days old, but I got here from Zulkan's new sig

Seems I'll have to take responsibility on that.

[Jastall]

Sylvanas must not have gotten the memo, all of the new allied races seem to be getting a similar swearing of loyalty that seems vaguely familiar to Garrosh's

Sylvanas demands obedience, but also extends her protection. She treats her new allies with about as much respect as anyone can get from Sylvanas. That's different from Garrosh's ''I AM the Horde, and fuck everyone who's not the exact kind of Orc I like!'' shtick.

[MikeBogina]

Sylvanas demands obedience, but also extends her protection. She treats her new allies with about as much respect as anyone can get from Sylvanas. That's different from Garrosh's ''I AM the Horde, and fuck everyone who's not the exact kind of Orc I like!'' shtick.

This is the difference between me and you, Vol'jin. I won't let MY people starve to death in the desert. I will stop at nothing - NOTHING - to ensure a proud and glorious future for the orcs and anyone with the courage to stand with us

From what we've seen, Sylvanas likes to put her people's future first and foremost. Also Garrosh killed Kromgar who was the kind of Orc he liked... for killing children of the alliance and massacring a tauren village.

[Terongor]

Yeah but that duel occurred before Garrosh went to Northrend, not after.



Yeah but again, the duel in question was no joke. Garrosh knew the Mak'gora was to the death and was perfectly aware of Cairne's fame as a warrior. He wouldn't have realistically risked to face a similar challenge without being at his strongest. Let's not forget this guy thrown away Gorehowl in MoP and replaced it with Xal'atoh because it was more powerful, and it's not like Garrosh started to despise his father (again) he just didn't seem to cling at sentimentalism at the expense of being weaker in combat.



I mean, of all races Tauren aren't really the kind for ambushes (unless they're Grimtotem). Ripping Garrosh apart was most likely the conclusion of a direct confrontation.



Unlike Magnataur, a Tauren does not have the advantage of an abundantly bigger size compared to an Orc. It's not like Baine could grab Garrosh out of nowhere without the latter putting up a fight.

- - - Updated - - -



Seems I'll have to take responsibility on that.

Yeah that happened before Wotlk but it was said Garrosh stood zero chance during wotlk pre-event and on WoD he dominated the fight so he probably grew stronger and stronger in cata and mop not just wotlk. He was in war and fighting constatly in cata and mop and that much fighting makes you grow stronger.

At that the start of cataclysm Garrosh was very sentimental look how he talked to general Krom'gar at stonetalon mountain and how he talked about Varok then.

It was said that version Wrathion and Kairoz summoned where the most twisted and different from our main timeline ones so we don't know that if he was twisted enough to ambush.

True their size difference isn't that huge, but if orc can hold out a Tauren in a fight it still means that orc is more skilled fighter than that Tauren because of the physical advantages Taurens have. Also Baine isn't counted toward among five most dangerous creatures in Azeroth like his father was.

[Jastall]

From what we've seen, Sylvanas likes to put her people's future first and foremost. Also Garrosh killed Kromgar who was the kind of Orc he liked... for killing children of the alliance and massacring a tauren village.

Yeah, he did that one time, because Afriasabi was in charge of writing that zone and had a different (better) idea of what Garrosh should be. As soon as he got out of Stonetalon, he gleefully went back to his meathead ways, and at the end of Cata the guy who was against dropping a bomb on civilians dropped a nuked on Theramore (without knowing that his subordinates had warned the town to empty itself of civilians) and subsequently sent the Kor'kron to capture and/or kill said surviving civilians.

Garrosh was a total mess, writing wise. It's one of the many reasons I dislike his character.

[Aucald]

Yeah, he did that one time, because Afriasabi was in charge of writing that zone and had a different (better) idea of what Garrosh should be. As soon as he got out of Stonetalon, he gleefully went back to his meathead ways, and at the end of Cata the guy who was against dropping a bomb on civilians dropped a nuked on Theramore (without knowing that his subordinates had warned the town to empty itself of civilians) and subsequently sent the Kor'kron to capture and/or kill said surviving civilians.

Garrosh was a total mess, writing wise. It's one of the many reasons I dislike his character.

I think too much of is made of the Stonetalon gaffe, personally. It is *one* instance of inconsistency of Garrosh's character - and while it is in a standalone sense still an awesome cut-scene, it shouldn't define Garrosh's total character in and of itself. There are multiple instances of Garrosh being a hothead as well as a warmonger well before Stonetalon. His first big post-TBC splash in WotLK is evidence of that, with Saurfang himself admonishing the younger Hellscream to cool his jets and think on the matter before getting into a pissing match with the Alliance vanguard at the Borean Tundra.

Remove Stonetalon from the equation and Garrosh's behavior is as a consistent arc in a downward trajectory, without much in the way of exceptions and outliers (which Stonetalon, simply put, is). Garrosh started as an idealistic Orc who values victory and honor in rough equivalency, and as his tenure of Warchief went on his allowed his grip on his idea of honor to slip in favor of embracing victory more and more, until he finally loses it all during SoO and in WoD and dies a raving lunatic on the windswept plains of his birth, bring his story full circle (squared by dint of happening in another timeline altogether). Almost perversely poetic, really.

[Aquamonkey]

and at the end of Cata the guy who was against dropping a bomb on civilians dropped a nuked on Theramore (without knowing that his subordinates had warned the town to empty itself of civilians) and subsequently sent the Kor'kron to capture and/or kill said surviving civilians.

Baine's warning didn't do anything. Garrosh parked his army and navy in full view of Theramore for days so they would prepare and bring in more Alliance forces. Garrosh's subordinates were about to mutiny because they didn't know why they were sitting around doing nothing.

[Jastall]

I think too much of is made of the Stonetalon gaffe, personally. It is *one* instance of inconsistency of Garrosh's character - and while it is in a standalone sense still an awesome cut-scene, it shouldn't define Garrosh's total character in and of itself. There are multiple instances of Garrosh being a hothead as well as a warmonger well before Stonetalon. His first big post-TBC splash in WotLK is evidence of that, with Saurfang himself admonishing the younger Hellscream to cool his jets and think on the matter before getting into a pissing match with the Alliance vanguard at the Borean Tundra.

Remove Stonetalon from the equation and Garrosh's behavior is as a consistent arc in a downward trajectory, without much in the way of exceptions and outliers (which Stonetalon, simply put, is). Garrosh started as an idealistic Orc who values victory and honor in rough equivalency, and as his tenure of Warchief went on his allowed his grip on his idea of honor to slip in favor of embracing victory more and more, until he finally loses it all during SoO and in WoD and dies a raving lunatic on the windswept plains of his birth, bring his story full circle (squared by dint of happening in another timeline altogether). Almost perversely poetic, really.

I can't really agree that he was consistent. In BC he was a moping waste of space, then suddenly before Wrath he hates the Alliance more than anyone else and challenges Thrall to Mak'gora over it, getting rewarded with an important post for his trouble. In Wrath-Cata he's a hotheaded warmonger, sure, but his raging racism only shows up in Mists when he was designed to be the expansion's final boss. He basically has a different personality every expansion. That's just not good writing.

There was a reason Garrosh got turned into a villain. The playerbase generally didn't like him and felt he was forced down their throats to justify a war. Varian was met with much of the same reaction, but became more popular as he mellowed out and was portayed as the smart guy (to the detriment of others like Tyrande, but still).

Anyhow, going back to the thread's topic, I feel that the Horde beating him just makes more sense. Varian deciding to just end the war when he's in a position of strength is already shaky logic, but it makes just no sense if the Alliance is the one holding all the cards and who just did all the work. If the Horde beats him, it means their contribution was substantial and their forces are still capable of fighting, making Varian think twice before engaging in further hostilities.

[Melsiren]

I can't really agree that he was consistent.

Because he was not, https://www.engadget.com/2014/11/11/...rnate-azeroth/

gives us some insight on the inner workings of Garrosh, his entire character was a blunder due to people not agreeing with what they wanted to do with him, though the person most involved with his character Alex Afrasiabi wrote Stonetalon.

There was a reason Garrosh got turned into a villain. The playerbase generally didn't like him and felt he was forced down their throats to justify a war.

Thank you, I've been saying that turning Garrosh into a Villian was a PR move for a long time now, very few people agree however.

[Aucald]

I can't really agree that he was consistent. In BC he was a moping waste of space, then suddenly before Wrath he hates the Alliance more than anyone else and challenges Thrall to Mak'gora over it, getting rewarded with an important post for his trouble. In Wrath-Cata he's a hotheaded warmonger, sure, but his raging racism only shows up in Mists when he was designed to be the expansion's final boss. He basically has a different personality every expansion. That's just not good writing.

In TBC Garrosh was despondent because he thought he was father as simply a dupe of the Legion and had done nothing save destroy Draenor and his own people by extension. On learning about Grom's later heroics during the Third War he returns to himself - that's the start of his story-arc and pretty much all that exists of his arc's upward curve. I would agree that prior to the "Heart of War" short-story his representation from TBC to WotLK is kind of odd, but that story evens out the arc and details both the genesis of his ire toward the Alliance, his disagreement with Thrall's philosophy as concerns Orcish custom, and so forth. His hotheadedness in WotLK is prompted by the events of "Heart of War," and the arc continues down as his vehemence deepens into racism (his loss to Varian and the Alliance in Ashenvale) and onward into the twilight realms of outright psychopathy by the end of MoP.

There was a reason Garrosh got turned into a villain. The playerbase generally didn't like him and felt he was forced down their throats to justify a war. Varian was met with much of the same reaction, but became more popular as he mellowed out and was portayed as the smart guy (to the detriment of others like Tyrande, but still).

External wizardry can't really translate into internal characterization - we're talking about who Garrosh was within the story, the decisions of the author or authors aren't fundamental to the end-result. Garrosh always seemed to be well-liked insofar as I could tell, and many in the day cheered the faction conflict element of Warcraft once more coming to the fore. Stonetalon is an instance where one person's desire for a character perhaps got a bit out of control, but it still doesn't stand out as his defining moment. And it's not as if his hotheaded warmongering nature wasn't still showcased even in Cata - its very present in the Twilight Highlands after all.

Anyhow, going back to the thread's topic, I feel that the Horde beating him just makes more sense. Varian deciding to just end the war when he's in a position of strength is already shaky logic, but it makes just no sense if the Alliance is the one holding all the cards and who just did all the work. If the Horde beats him, it means their contribution was substantial and their forces are still capable of fighting, making Varian think twice before engaging in further hostilities.

I'm just referring to the character of Garrosh. I personally think if the Alliance leadership had decided to try to end the Horde as per Jaina's suggestion it would've ended with all or most of both sides' leadership dead and everyone on both factions would be seriously worse off for it. Everyone present in Garrosh's throne-room in the Underhold was basically a hard-check for their opposite on the other side, with the end-result being pretty much everyone dead or dying by the time things were over. It would've been a bad move on either party's part.