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  1. #141
    ALPHA?? Not even the Beta test lawl. Get ready for 9 more months of Argus. They better release the Allied Races soon. I'm already bored.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    I meant something like crafting would scale to the endgame too. PvP gearing, or some solo/small group content (These islands may be it). Basically any sort of content, which can reward you end-game gear without actually forcing everyone to raiding/mythic dungeons. Something, where different specialization could be more useful in some other aspects of the game.

    Because if they really want make classes more unique (which is fantastic), it means that these hardcore groups will just bench some classes even more, just because their utility is not perfectly suited for certain raids. And if Mythic and Raiding is only source of end-game top rewards, discussion about balance is always only about, and ONLY about, how they perform in raids.

    Maybe it is okay, if not everyone can be top dog in raids, as long as they can be top dogs somewhere else and be rewarded for it.
    I actually like this. I don't have the same time to devote to the game as I did. I would like to engage in more content, used to heroic raid (what would be mythic in Legion) raid lead, guild officer... all of that. Can't do it anymore for a number of reasons, but would like to not be relegated to LFR...ugh.

    Would especially love having meaningful endgame profession content beyond alchemy.

    Love the fishing legendary (still working on that) and hope they keep fishing and cooking relevant.

    Oh, and Nomi can suck it.

  3. #143
    Wtf another expansion with no additional talent slots to go up to 120? So damn tired of a bland small talent tree.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    I didn't say it was hard to read. I said the text doesn't actually give any information at all. It's just a wall of text with no actual meaning, or rather it could mean anything.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm sure it can but we haven't gotten any information about that yet. Thats my point. These dev watercoolers are nice and all but rather pointless if they don't actually give any information.

    We also haven't really gotten any info about the amount of RNG becuase Blizzard had very little to share about BfA at all. The removal of legendaries is great but TF/WF is still there and they haven't talked at all about CDs, trinkets and maybe more importantly rewards and such.

    With WoD being rather lackluster and Legion downright horrible it's hard to stay positive and expect the current dev team to get this one right. Heck, even the Blizzard devs looked like they weren't sure about BfA during last years Blizzcon. Why should their customers?
    Don’t state that as fact. Legion is one of the better expansions we’ve had imo. Wrath with it’s abysmal resource system (9 different types of badges or so) and BC with its even more so RNG legendaries I believe legion is better. You can think otherwise and maybe this is why I’m slightly more trusting than you are here. We don’t need to talk about this part though it won’t go anywhere I know where you stand and all that shit.

    I do agree that it was vague. They said a lot without saying anything which they’ve done before but they made their intent and their mindset fairly clear which tells us what they kinda wanna do. We need more information which we’ll get with the beta but I see no reason to run around being as bitter as you complaining as much as you. If you don’t wanna play then don’t but don’t post on the forums (official not here) burying the posts from people who do care.

  5. #145
    Deleted
    IMO talents are just dumb as they are. If you're not going to make them massive trees with bigger and smaller buffs that actually feel fun to advance through while leveling but that you eventually get all of, just remove them completely. Talents will always be about maximizing DPS and picking the best options. There will never be a choice. It's just a pain in the ass.

    If you don't want to go back to massive talent trees with proper customization that affects every single thing you do, just remove the talent system and give the players the skills instead.

  6. #146
    Dreadlord Alkizon's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Explicit Teemo Nudes View Post
    Vanilla talent trees were bad because they were uncreative and boring. Spending talents for 1-2-3-4-5% extra frost damage is boring - but then they add that exact same thing to artifact weapons.
    They were not bad, they allowed to customize (not add a lot) any ability from your toolkit. This was the main and best way, of course not everything can be "modified" beyond recognition, but at the same time, a lot has been done better during WotLK without unnecessary breaking of main class paradigms and design / implementation of talent system (and no any PvP/PvE = Holinka/Celestalon separate pieces):
    - specialization - doesn't exist, there is whole set of abilities with miserable deviations in branches of ONE GENERAL TREE = CLASS which each of branches uses in their own way, but only if player desires (= choice), and not because system has decided so for him/her (= no choice)
    (some tips from my new friends <1>(2nd part), <2>)

    By the way, 1-3%-kind talents were insignificant minority in relation to really useful ones. It wasn't necessary to break anything, only edit slightly.

    ps. In fact, three large sections in which written next stuff: we don't know how this works and, by the way, artifacts will no longer be a thing - which was clear even without this text at the beginning of Legion. Empty conversation. More like politic's talk
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2018-06-03 at 03:23 PM.
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  7. #147
    Not much difference to me as a frost dk main

    We had no utility for years and this is our uniqueness

    Oh wait we are slow

  8. #148
    Deleted
    For me just go back to Pandaria state. The 2 classes I played felt the greatest in that expac (warlock and paladin) Can't speak for others but those 2 were GOOD talentwise, utilitywise, good in PvE and very good in PvP. Destro warlock? mmm yeah they were touched by the hand of Blizzardgod. Ret paly in pvp? UNKITABALE Long Arm of the Law, reliable judgement slow. Good times.

    Now Ret from being the least kiteable class with Empancipation, 2x Hand of Freedom, short cd slow, and short cd 45% speed are THE SLOWEST class in Legion next to DK. Just steal/dispel HoFreedom and gg. Fk Pony QQ
    Last edited by mmoca74bc6d1ec; 2018-01-25 at 07:20 AM.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Explicit Teemo Nudes View Post
    The problem, as I see it, is that there are mainly two groups of players that want different things. Not everyone in these groups want the same thing, but generally speaking.

    The smaller of the two groups is where all raiders, M+ and high rank arena/RBG players are. They are competitive and care more about numbers and balance over class identity and niche specs/talents/abilities.

    The larger group has the rest of the player base. People that don't give a shit either way, and people that do care about class+spec identity and think that's far more important than numbers and absolute balance down to 1%. Some casual raiders and M+ people, smaller guilds, playing with friends, casuals, roleplayers, solo players, levelers/alt players - those kind of players.

    I belong to the second group, and for me WoW is getting so boring because everything has gotten so streamlined and uncreative. I hate what the "everything must be balanced down to 1%" has done to the game. The adventure is gone from the game, even if Blizzard managed to bring some of it back in Legion - mainly thanks to the awesome Suramar storyline and all the puzzles/secrets.

    At the same time I do think that the raiding scene and such is important to the game. It belongs in a MMO game. So I do understand why Blizzard needs to listen to the smaller group aswell.
    I guess what I really wish for, is that the competitive people wasn't so competitive and could enjoy an adventurous game and skip the number crunching :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    This watercooler is such a big, fat /yawn. It's the same as always.
    Blizzard don't want "balance". They want - and need - the game to be a rollecoaster or they won't be able to give all players what they want.
    They prune, then add. Prune again, then add. Repeat. Repeat again.
    They add systems that are "better than the previous ones", but then replace them in the next expansion because "they didn't work out as they had hoped".
    They'll never work out better than they have, and they know it. They need to add this drama to the game to keep the players. People are drawn to drama. People invest their emotions, and when you invest your emotions you get attached - and that is exactly what they want.

    Vanilla talent trees were bad because they were uncreative and boring. Spending talents for 1-2-3-4-5% extra frost damage is boring - but then they add that exact same thing to artifact weapons.
    - Hey dev crew. Don't forget that we need to make sure mages, rogues, resto druids and holy paladins have 100% pick rate as usual. Yeah, but make sure enhance shamans, holy priests and whatever other dirt at the bottom of the barrel gets a small patch window where they'll be insanely good just so these players will stick around in the hopes that one day their class will get their 15 minutes of fame again.
    Bring the player, not the class. No, no! Bring the class, not the player. Nah, guys, bring the player and not the class. Next expansion we bring the class and not the player.
    Players! We have something exciting for you in this expansion! Secrets! You will get the chance to unlock a hidden appearance for your new weapon! Exciting, huh?! They will definitely not be a low drop chance from a boss that may not even spawn once a year, or something that you buy from a vendor. No, you will unlock them in very creative ways!
    Also: we thought the old way of working your ass off to hit exalted with a faction and then buying the rewards is very uncreative and not fun, so we've added boxes that has an extremely low chance to drop a reward. So you need to grind to exalted a hundred times for the same faction. Gambling is so much fun and not time consuming at all.

    -
    My hopes are not high. Most will stay the same - or get worse - in the next expansion. But as I'm so deep into this game I still have that glimmer of hope that Blizzard made sure to plant in me.
    I pretty much agree with the vast majority of your words. It really sounds like Blizzard's development has finally come full circle onto their own MMORPG cycle, rounding the corner into what essentially is Vanilla WoW's design philosophy. What they fail to understand is just implementing lootbox esque psychological features while overly extending the leveling process of your game and focusing on what is essentially top tier 1% balance, you make for a game that's shitty for the average player.

    Look at Overwatch if you want an example of a game that exists only for top tier 'balance' (Like League of Legends I'm sure) that ends up being a horrible experience for the average player because it's not built around that players experience whatsoever.
    There is absolutely no basis for individual rights to firearms or self defense under any contextual interpretation of the second amendment of the United States Constitution. It defines clearly a militia of which is regulated of the people and arms, for the expressed purpose of protection of the free state. Unwillingness to take in even the most basic and whole context of these laws is exactly the road to anarchy.

  10. #150
    alright guys, lets not forget to give 250 pages of pure feedback and theorycrafting that also has multiple blue posts of were listening just to have it all scraped and not a single thing implemented (cough cough mm hunters for legion cough)

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaarashatan View Post
    alright guys, lets not forget to give 250 pages of pure feedback and theorycrafting that also has multiple blue posts of were listening just to have it all scraped and not a single thing implemented (cough cough mm hunters for legion cough)
    And see that's fundamentally my problem with Blizzard. They care more about their ideas, their systems and their implementation than they do abut the input of the fans and the people that make this game what it is.

    You want to know why the community in WoW died? It died when the developers stopped giving a shit about making content for the community and instead focused on their own devices.
    There is absolutely no basis for individual rights to firearms or self defense under any contextual interpretation of the second amendment of the United States Constitution. It defines clearly a militia of which is regulated of the people and arms, for the expressed purpose of protection of the free state. Unwillingness to take in even the most basic and whole context of these laws is exactly the road to anarchy.

  12. #152
    The Lightbringer
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    If they like designing roller coaster rides they're in the wrong business. It's the same with all their games when selling new content to players. Some players will have the time of their lives and some will feel neglected. Blizz expects you to adapt if you keep buying into their schemes, hence alts at the ready for the new fotm being the norm.

    Social aspects just help retain players and let devs get away with this stuff. Overall sad when all the positives have a grim backside to them.

  13. #153
    Why do I get the impression that Classic realms have made the devs realise what they’ve done wrong with the game. Ever since Blizzcon I’ve felt they have loaded up classic and gone “oh cool look how awesome it was for this...”

    So now we have the xp changes. And now we have the role act towards class uniqueness.

  14. #154
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zabatakis View Post
    Anyone who plays beta and visits the forums will tell you this is true. They want you for bug testing, nothing more. Feedback on anything else is outright thrown in the trash without being read.
    Exactly. We've become the product while blizz has gone full circle on the genre.
    If you knew the candle was fire then the meal was cooked a long time ago.

  15. #155
    How to write 500 words withot actually saying anything.

  16. #156
    Class uniqueness and utility.. copy and paste MoP spells and mechanics- solved.

  17. #157
    They better include ALL the traits which have visuals for ALL the specs.
    And include even hidden stuff like mages incinerating dead enemies and retribution paladins turning dead enemies into a pile of ash.

  18. #158

    Thumbs up

    Very nice comment. I'm with you.

  19. #159
    Deleted
    As for Class Changes my outlook after Legion actually is positive. I tink they did a great job with how the majority of classes got reworked. Specs feel alot more different in Legion then they did in WoD. While i personally prefer more changes to be made, because simply change is good, and is needed so things keep fresh and not stale, i understand that alot of players are different and just want there classes to play the same.
    No matter what, i think class uniquenenss is definetly desriable, and Blizz will do their job to make it good.

    When it comes to talents my positivity however is gone! After several expacs of this new talent system and how they did handle them in the past, i dont have any positivity left. "One of the major challenges in setting up talent rows is that they serve two conflicting desires: choices within a row should be meaningfully varied" I have read this statement in the past, yet Blizzard failed to deliver on its philosophy on every xpac so far.
    Over the past months of Legion, Blizzard actually didnt manage to rework talents which are simply bad and almost never get used. Some would require overhauls to be even looked at, and i understand that this is something u necesarilly dont want to do in the mid of an expac. But if its necesarry, then do it! On the other hand, some talents simply are in the need of tuning and number changes, yet nothing alike is seen. There are talents which are unused and undertuned since the beginning of Legion, and actually didnt get touched ONCE over the course of Legion!
    Additionally i think Blizzard has this strange missconception of talents to be as nummerically equal as possible. Which at the first place sounds good, but when looked into detail doesnt prove to be right.
    Passive Talents almost always win in this scenario, because why would u want to take an active ability with additional CD and or resource management over a passive ability if their outcome is almost the same? On top of that, talents with clear mechanical design often fail to deliver, simply because they have disadvantages but no real advantage since they are tuned so equally.
    Example? Retribution Tier 1 (lvl15) talents. Final Verdict - Execution Sentence - Consecration
    The first one is the passive all around "i do everything" talent, second one is an CD based single target DMG ability, and last is a stationary AoE ability. Both ES and Cons have a clear core functionallity, with a major weakness, but no real strenght! They are bad in situations which are not ST or stationary AoE, but dont excel in those situations they are made for. And therefore never ever get picked.
    I think the current and past talent system philosophy failed horribly. And while i want to be positive and look forward, i simply cant because of how Blizzard did handle them in the past.

    so long
    Last edited by mmoc418a8f9674; 2018-01-25 at 11:29 AM.

  20. #160
    As usual - the theory of the post sounds good, but it's not enough because we need to wait until the information on specific changes goes public.
    I have to agree with some of the posters on the talent balance though - it was definitely not the best this expansion.

    Some talent choices are simply odd - like warlocks having mobility talent in the same tier as two survivability talents.
    Also, they should really tone down the approach of having all talents giving equal numeric output.
    Passive talent choices should always give less benefit then active ones.

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