Kidnapping victim killed after FBI open fire

[I Push Buttons]

Every link I can find makes no mention of anyone beside FBI opening fire.

Didn't have a choice? You mean falling back and trying to negotiate until the victims are released isn't an option?

As I said in the op it's ok kill the victims as long as the criminal is caught huh? Ends justify the means?

You seem to be making a lot of bullshit up as you go.

How about you behave like a rational adult and wait for the facts.

Here are the actual facts known so far:
- They broke into the man's home and restrained him and his son with duct tape.
- They left the kid behind and told him not to call the police.
- They then contacted the brother of the victim, demanded money, and told him they were connected to a drug cartel.
- The FBI tracked two of the suspects who made the call to a nearby hotel, where they were arrested.
- They revealed the location of the third suspect, who was holding the man at her home (children, presumably hers, were also present in the home).
- There has been no further information revealed on what provoked the raid or why the agent fired beyond one article stating:

Brett Ligon, the Montgomery County district attorney, says his office will look into the possibility of murder charges in the case since the suspect's alleged actions led to the victim's death.

- So allegedly, the agent fired due to the actions of the suspect, what those actions were or whether they actually happened are at present unknown.
- It was later revealed they had no connection to the cartel and one of the kidnappers is related to the victim via marriage.

[Orange Joe]

You seem to be making a lot of bullshit up as you go.

What did I make up? Feel free to quote it for me.

[I Push Buttons]

What did I make up? Feel free to quote it for me.

Perhaps your bullshit scenarios that you made up completely... Or going on about how "its ok the hostage died" presumably to nation bash...

[Orange Joe]

Perhaps your bullshit scenarios that you made up completely... Or going on about how "its ok the hostage died" presumably to nation bash...

It's called sarcasm as that is the general sentiment in these threads.

What scenario did I make up? Please tell me

[LiiLoSNK]

He was probably held as a human shield by the kidnappers and then yelled, "TAKE THE SHOT", as that is what anyone who isn't a pussy would do.

Sometimes it goes bad and that's the chance a real man takes for freedom.

[s_bushido]

Too bad there wasn't a good guy with a gun there to resolve the situation.

[omfgreally]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kidnappin...230735896.html


By hey at least they got the criminal, that makes it ok right?

It seems that most likely these days is "BEST" to "NOT" get the "LAW" involved unless you want to just kill everyone in trouble.
I'm still waiting for a bank robbery were the cops, swat and FBI just go in and just fucking KILL EVERYONE inside and outside of the bank. Mark my word, boys and girls. any day now! Calling Judge Dredd, much?!

[Raelbo]

No. No it isn't. The price of freedom, by any reasonable definition, cannot be an ever growing mountain of death.

Actually, things like this (innocent victims occasionally becoming casualties) IS part of the price for freedom. Misnaming it "an ever growing mountain of death" is just you trying to use a strawman argument since, presumably, you lack an actual valid argument.

There is a reason why countries which are free generally have a policy of not negotiating with terrorists and kindnappers. Because to do so openly invites more such acts.

While it's really awful that in this case an innocent victim is dead and the alternative of giving in to the kidnappers' demands might have resulted in the victim still being alive, the long term consequences would likely have more kidnappings and ultimately more dead victims.

[Deleted]

Actually, things like this (innocent victims occasionally becoming casualties) IS part of the price for freedom. Misnaming it "an ever growing mountain of death" is just you trying to use a strawman argument since, presumably, you lack an actual valid argument.

There is a reason why countries which are free generally have a policy of not negotiating with terrorists and kindnappers. Because to do so openly invites more such acts.

While it's really awful that in this case an innocent victim is dead and the alternative of giving in to the kidnappers' demands might have resulted in the victim still being alive, the long term consequences would likely have more kidnappings and ultimately more dead victims.

That 'never negotiate with terrorists' is one of the biggest lies in politics and if you believe it you are a gullible moron.

EVERY long running conflict with a so called terrorist was ended in one of 2 ways; a) the terrorists won, or b) the nation in question invites them to the negotiating table.

An example from my country. The UK government spent nearly a 100 years trying to eliminate the IRA, the fought them, they tortured them, they locked them in prison for years without trials, they killed them and their families, they killed civilians and bystanders and none of it worked, none of it. What did work? Negotiating worked to end that violent conflict (even as the UK government refused to admit they would negotiate with terrorists, they were doing exactly that).

Even now both the UK and Us have rough arrangements with the PKK/YPG in Syria, in both countries those groups are registered as terrorist organisations, YET here we are, not only negotiating them, but sending them money and resources...


The most primary, most basic human right is the right to life, a right the US government and wider culture clearly has absolutely no respect for at all.

[Dispraise]

He was probably held as a human shield by the kidnappers and then yelled, "TAKE THE SHOT", as that is what anyone who isn't a pussy would do.

That's what I tend to yell at FBI agents/police/passersby even when I'm not being held captive or serving as a meat shield.

Because I'm a man, dammit.

[Super Kami Dende]

Oh no, So a Guy that was being held by "Cartel Members" was accidentally killed in Crossfire.

It's almost as if it is a High Risk situation and accidents happen.

But of course lets try to turn this into a "HURR DA AUTHIRITEES R DA BAD GUYS!" situation.

Clearly they should have given the Thugs the $20k money and an Escape passage. Right? I'm sure the "Cartel enforcers" dindu nuffin.

[SealMemeSix]

Oh no, So a Guy that was being held by "Cartel Members" was accidentally killed in Crossfire.

It's almost as if it is a High Risk situation and accidents happen.

But of course lets try to turn this into a "HURR DA AUTHIRITEES R DA BAD GUYS!" situation.

Clearly they should have given the Thugs the $20k money and an Escape passage. Right? I'm sure the "Cartel enforcers" dindu nuffin.

Hey this is mmochampion, where you can only belong to one of two groups

1) "Alt-right" bigots who call for eugenics and the extermination of refugees.
2) Liberal, regressive self-loathing white males who despise cops almost as much as their own ancestors.

[Blobfish]

Looks like a tough bunch.

Look like people from Shithouse countries, as the Great Donald Trump would say

[Lochton]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kidnappin...230735896.html


By hey at least they got the criminal, that makes it ok right?

Too vague title..

Though, the situation of a task going off the rails can happen. Sorry for the loss to the family but it is apparently still under investigation according to your link, so unknown what could've gone wrong.

[ipaq]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/kidnappin...230735896.html


By hey at least they got the criminal, that makes it ok right?

Since you know all the answers (like which bullet killed the kidnapped victim) the FBI should talk to you.

A non Fox News journalist would have titled it: "A kidnapped victim dies during a FBI raid". And told us how long the FBI investigation will take before we get answers.

[Raelbo]

That 'never negotiate with terrorists' is one of the biggest lies in politics and if you believe it you are a gullible moron.

ok mr genius.

EVERY long running conflict with a so called terrorist was ended in one of 2 ways; a) the terrorists won, or b) the nation in question invites them to the negotiating table.

An example from my country. The UK government spent nearly a 100 years trying to eliminate the IRA, the fought them, they tortured them, they locked them in prison for years without trials, they killed them and their families, they killed civilians and bystanders and none of it worked, none of it. What did work? Negotiating worked to end that violent conflict (even as the UK government refused to admit they would negotiate with terrorists, they were doing exactly that).

You're talking about dealing with organisations labelled "terrorist", I am talking about kidnappers engaged in an active kidnapping, the principle of which is similar to terrorists engaged in a hostage situation.

Talk about a massive false equivalence (to add to your previous strawman). And you call ME a moron

The most primary, most basic human right is the right to life, a right the US government and wider culture clearly has absolutely no respect for at all.

This comment might make sense if it was demonstrated that the FBI's intent was to kill the victim, or even if they didn't care about saving him. It should be pretty obvious though that their intent was to save the hostage. Unfortunately, here in the real world, things don't always go according to plan, and it is basically inevitable when dealing with this kind of crime that things will sometimes go wrong and innocent people will be harmed. The best that any law enforcement agency can do is follow a strategy with the highest probability of keeping civilians safe. Part of that strategy is not negotiating with kidnappers.

PS: since you seem a bit hard headed on this issue, let me be more clear about what people who use that phrase mean: You don't give in to their demands. That doesn't mean you can't reach a peaceful outcome in which the kidnapper surrenders peacefully, provided they don't get their demands met in the process. Because once you start giving in to the demands of kidnappers, you're basically declaring open season on would-be kidnapping victims.

[Machismo]

It's not enough information to necessarily blame the FBI for the death. We don't know the exact circumstances that led to the shooting. Ideally, this gets investigated in an independent and transparent manner, but I doubt that latter part will happen.

[Priestiality]

This thread is going to go places. Nowhere good, but places.

[ParanoiD84]

Shit happens.