Ele Shaman Early Beta datamining spellchanges

[mkultra55]

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No, but citing Displacer as major loss but omitting that Druids still have a subsitute is not right.
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Second, i also said it's better to discount artifact, which i have said multiple times now, but you seem to ignore that and list more because reasons..........

LOL I'm ignoring it because it's ludicrous to NOT include them if we want to have a discussion about what specs have lost. Of course you want to discard talking about them because it minimizes your POV. Losing Artifact traits are direct nerfs to survival, defensives and/or self healing for many specs which was what I said in the first place. And losing Displacer Beast is still a loss and it was still a very useful Talent whether there were other options or not.

Look dude, I really don't care to get into your usual obsession with minutiae and arguing just to argue. Every spec in the game lost a lot going into BFA. Every spec lost a lot of what defined them in Legion.That's a fact. Feel free to try and win that prize for the spec that lost the most though.

I've never said Ele is perfect. I've argued for changes to talents and mechanics like most Shaman have here and on the Official forums. What made Ele fun for me in Legion is still there at the core though s I'm going to Main Ele again no matter what.

[Kralljin]

LOL I'm ignoring it because it's ludicrous to NOT include them if we want to have a discussion about what specs have lost. Of course you want to discard talking about them because it minimizes your POV.

Because so many of these traits do not have a major impact.
Like the Transcendance trait, or Disengage one or the arms one(s).

Do you really think people will miss those? Among those defensive traits are quite a lot that are just bad or outright useless.

This is why i say to ignore them, because discussing whether losing a trait that reduces your damage taken by 13% after using disengage is a serious loss or not is a discussion not really worth having.

Whether the removal of Gust of wind and Displacer hits Shaman or Druid harder is another one, as those abilities actually had an impact.

And losing Displacer Beast is still a loss and it was still a very useful Talent whether there were other options or not.

Every spec in the game lost a lot going into BFA.

I just find this position rather hilarious, Person A gets robbed for 100 bucks, next one for 200, both got robbed and therefore got equally fucked.

By that logic, removing Lightning Bolt on the move was also totally fine, as a lot of specs also lost stuff going into WoD.

[Solence]

Let them take a Mage's Blink or Hunter's Disengage, they would nuke Blizzard into oblivion unless they're given a proper replacement.

So you have no idea why they took these mobility spells from shaman and druid. Wow nice way to make yourself look dumb.

[Venziir]

So you have no idea why they took these mobility spells from shaman and druid. Wow nice way to make yourself look dumb.

And yet, it's perfectly fine for mages to keep their bloodlust copy

[Kralljin]

So you have no idea why they took these mobility spells from shaman and druid. Wow nice way to make yourself look dumb.

I have commented multiple times by now on this topic.

Blizzard reasoning was included, sorry i do not mention every time that Ion thinks Displacer and Gust of Wind make special snowflake mage blink sad.

Besides, Hunters disengage was (from Blizzards side) never part of this discussion.

[Solence]

I have commented multiple times by now on this topic.

Blizzard reasoning was included, sorry i do not mention every time that Ion thinks Displacer and Gust of Wind make special snowflake mage blink sad.

Besides, Hunters disengage was (from Blizzards side) never part of this discussion.

Wow and again you prove that you didnt understand anything. Its not about players beeing whiny like you its about class uniqueness and to go against homogenisation.
But i guess a crybaby will assume everyone else is a crybaby too.

[Venziir]

Wow and again you prove that you didnt understand anything. Its not about players beeing whiny like you its about class uniqueness and to go against homogenisation.
But i guess a crybaby will assume everyone else is a crybaby too.

Again - please, explain why it's okay for mages and hunters to have bloodlust. And why it's okay for mages and hunters to have certain spells-the-move, despite elemental being the most iconic "running caster" spec?

[Kralljin]

Wow and again you prove that you didnt understand anything. Its not about players beeing whiny like you its about class uniqueness and to go against homogenisation.

It just shows that you aren't looking at the entire thing.

Venzirr above said it already, Bloodlust was a unique Shaman spell up until Cata, then Mages got and BM.
In BfA, both Mages and Hunters can cast without massive restriction, they can do that now already as well but due legendaries and talent choice, it's a bit of a hassle.

"(De)homogenisation" just rarely works in the favour of the Shaman class.

Just to give you another example, Reincarnation was one of the signature abilities of Shaman and a powerful one, coming back from lethal hits was something that no other class could do.

Now? Cheat death and Cauterize are miles better than Reincarnation bar some select situations, because preventing your death in the first place is usually better than coming back from the dead, not even mentioning the 30minute CD.

I wouldn't say a thing if Elemental had a legit argument against mage as far as raiding is concerned, however Elemental very often feels like a worse Mage with slightly more AoE (which is so important in raids, right?).

[Solence]

It just shows that you aren't looking at the entire thing.

Venzirr above said it already, Bloodlust was a unique Shaman spell up until Cata, then Mages got and BM.
In BfA, both Mages and Hunters can cast without massive restriction, they can do that now already as well but due legendaries and talent choice, it's a bit of a hassle.

"(De)homogenisation" just rarely works in the favour of the Shaman class.

Just to give you another example, Reincarnation was one of the signature abilities of Shaman and a powerful one, coming back from lethal hits was something that no other class could do.

Now? Cheat death and Cauterize are miles better than Reincarnation bar some select situations, because preventing your death in the first place is usually better than coming back from the dead, not even mentioning the 30minute CD.

I wouldn't say a thing if Elemental had a legit argument against mage as far as raiding is concerned, however Elemental very often feels like a worse Mage with slightly more AoE (which is so important in raids, right?).

Great but we arent talking about bloodlust here. You know with your small assed arguments you could even say that monk should get deleted beause he uses combopoints(chi) wich rogues had since vanilla. Bloodlust is such an essential cooldown that they made it more accessible to the playerbase. But i guess bloodlust is the same dps value as "Gust of Wind" pff ha i cant even take you guys seriously anymore at this point. Its just a big pile of shited diapers. Please get ahold of yourself and breathe alittle outside air. The lenght people go because they lost a spell that isnt necessary to raid or or m+ is ridiculous at this point. But im just talking into an angry salty river here...

[Chickat]

I think the fire elemental should be a baseline pet along with earth.

New talent.
Elemental Plea. Call upon the elements to enhance your current elemental pet, giving them new abilities. 2.5min CD.

Fire Elemental- Lava Golem, Deals 50% more damage, and when you Lava Burst the Lava Golem also Lava Bursts. 15 sec duration.
Earth Elemental- Stone Golem, Reduces all friendly players damage taken within 40 Yards by 20% for 15 seconds.

[Kralljin]

Great but we arent talking about bloodlust here.

You started this whole homogenization thing, Bloodlust (which is being shared across 3 classes) is obviously relevant to this topic.
Especially if are taking into account that back in Wotlk (which started this whole thing) Bloodlust remained Shaman exclusive.

You know with your small assed arguments you could even say that monk should get deleted beause he uses combopoints(chi) wich rogues had since vanilla.

Now you are just comparing apples to oranges.
Similiar gameplay does not equal similiar abilities, two different pair of shoes.

Bloodlust is such an essential cooldown that they made it more accessible to the playerbase.

Both Monk and DH apply a 5% magic / physical debuff in BfA, no other class can debuff this, no craftable substitute, nothing.
If you don't have a DH, your casters are doing 5% less damage, period.

Sounds strangely familiar, doesn't it?

All things aside, this expansion wanted to return to unique class buffs like PW:F, Battle shout, Arcane Intellect, right?

[Beingbob]

Wow and again you prove that you didnt understand anything. Its not about players beeing whiny like you its about class uniqueness and to go against homogenisation.
But i guess a crybaby will assume everyone else is a crybaby too.

Class uniqueness is every ranged spec except mages and hunters being an immobile mess that can only have access to a handicapped version of sprint? With this logic we should be removing Feral Leap from enhancement, Skull Bash from feral, and Shadowstep from rogues. After all they're keeping warrior charge from being an unique ability and making melee specs homogenous.

[mkultra55]

Because so many of these traits do not have a major impact.
Like the Transcendance trait, or Disengage one or the arms one(s).

Do you really think people will miss those?

Uhhh...yes. Read some other Class forums or maybe play something else for a change. The Trancendance Heal in particular is something I used regularly in Legion.

This is why i say to ignore them, because discussing whether losing a trait that reduces your damage taken by 13% after using disengage is a serious loss or not is a discussion not really worth having.

It all adds up. They still represent a nerf to survival and self healing which was what I said at the start.

I just find this position rather hilarious, Person A gets robbed for 100 bucks, next one for 200, both got robbed and therefore got equally fucked.

By that logic, removing Lightning Bolt on the move was also totally fine, as a lot of specs also lost stuff going into WoD.

It's really going to make you feel better if Ele is universally understood to be the worst spec going into BFA huh?
Tell us what prize we're going to win. What an amazingly useful line of discussion.

No one is saying it's all fine. No one disagrees that losing Gust sucks. I just think you need to expand your horizons a bit and play some other classes to see that no one seems happy right now.

Do you ever go back through this thread and read your own posts btw? Nearly every one is you arguing with someone or refuting their opinion. It's exhausting.

[Solence]

Do you ever go back through this thread and read your own posts btw? Nearly every one is you arguing with someone or refuting their opinion. It's exhausting.

I honestly couldnt agree more. Its like he argued himself into a corner and is afraid to leave it now.

[Kralljin]

Uhhh...yes. Read some other Class forums or maybe play something else for a change.

I read other class forums as well, but that rarely actually expands the horizon on that matter, mostly it just exposes you to the bias of other people.

And my Warrior / Hunter / Monk still have Charge,Disengage and Roll on Beta, so yeah, if i had to choose between the defensive artifact traits and those abilities, i'd go with mobility.

It's really going to make you feel better if Ele is universally understood to be the worst spec going into BFA huh?
Tell us what prize we're going to win. What an amazingly useful line of discussion.

No idea, you started this discussion with defensive artifacts, which by the way has nothing to do with anything i said.
The one commonality between these two are that both are being removed, that's about it.

Because implore you to read those posts again, i haven't mentioned defensive capabilities.

As i don't think Shaman defense is an issue in BfA unless we get another ToS, as Astral shift is still decent, you can go for PE for another 40% reduce, get Nature's Guardian as safety net and if things get hairy, another 20% from Spirit wolf at the expense of Dps.

So if neccessary, i can achieve like 70% damage reduction, won't matter if the encounter requires true immunities but still, Elemental defense is not as bad as in Legion.

More defense is nice, but it's not there to properly replace Gust of Wind in my view.

No one is saying it's all fine. No one disagrees that losing Gust sucks. I just think you need to expand your horizons a bit and play some other classes to see that no one seems happy right now.

It's amazing how people read into "this sucks" to "this is the worst spec ever".

Rich people also sometimes complain about being treated unfairly by life itself, which seems rather proposterous from the perspective of poor people, question is, who is right? Perspective and context matters.
Simply because other classes are unhappy doesn't neccessarily mean they are as bad as X/Y/Z.
Warlocks also cried during MoP about various shit, despite them being at the strongest state ever.

I'm simply going to quote myself here, it sums up my stance on this entire matter.

But i don't think any class lost an ability on the level of Gust of Wind.

If you think otherwise, please state it, but stop this rambling about defensive artifact traits, i'll say it again, barring few exceptions they are not that impactful and still not on the level of usefulness as Gust of Wind was.

[Icathian]

Imo, it really doesn't matter if you have 2000% DR, if you could spare all those CDs just by simply moving fast/blinking from point A to point B, which is what stuff that are baked in a lot of classes but not shaman, and shaman suffer the most from it.

A lot of it could be solved by simply giving ele back the ability to cast LB on the move. It just feels like other specs have much less effort to survive.


Stacking 10 different spells just to achieve the same defensive capability than another spec which can just press a button and be done with it will never be the same thing.

But it seems that Blizzard just can't understand that, since they think that self rez is the same thing as cheat death etc.

[Peacemoon]

I am not an elemental shaman expert by any means but my initial impression of the spec after playing resto and enhancement a fair bit during Legion is that I really miss spiritwalkers grace on ele spec. Mobility really hampers it’s dps like none other spec I’ve played. Or have Earth shock balanced around 40/50 maelstrom rather than using all of it, then you could get 2/3 casts off while moving and lava surges. Also I am not a fan of flame shock using maelstrom, it should just have an average duration without that cost, or you should have a separate CD to empower your next shock (sort of like Thunder tea for MW)

[mkultra55]

No idea, you started this discussion with defensive artifacts, which by the way has nothing to do with anything i said.
The one commonality between these two are that both are being removed, that's about it.............

Right, I started the discussion by talking about how other classes are having similar concerns and how players of those classes feel they've lost power, defensives and self healing. Which is all true btw.

Of course that triggered you. You feel so wronged by Blizzard that any hint that other players feel their Classes have lost some important things as well cannot be tolerated.

And my Warrior / Hunter / Monk still have Charge,Disengage and Roll on Beta, so yeah, if i had to choose between the defensive artifact traits and those abilities, i'd go with mobility.

So play one of those Classes and leave the rest of us to discuss our thoughts in peace? Your obsession with the loss of Gust is becoming frightening btw.

[Solence]

mimimimimimimmimimi

Yes yes you are totally right. Shaman can do nothing. Warlocks press one button to move somewhere which is the forward button. It all makes totally sense now.
Thank you kind Sir for opening our eyes now. Have you ever seen a mythic raid from the inside because it surely feels like you know what you are talking about. I too hate it awlays to die when i have to interrupt a cast to sidestep mechanics. Maaan stupid instakill mechanics when we walk....
PLS blizz listen to this genius!

[Kralljin]

Right, I started the discussion by talking about how other classes are having similar concerns and how players of those classes feel they've lost power, defensives and self healing. Which is all true btw.

I acknowledged that, Blizzard nerfed some outliners such as rogue.
However after that, not much came from you except for Healing Elixir (which is not that impactful for raiding) and those defensive traits.
And then you kept arguing that those defensive are actually super important - which they are not if you look at the general power of those and not just Frost Dk's.

Because those defensive traits are a fart in the wind, that's the bottom line.

With the exception of artifact abilities and a few traits, losing artifacts as a whole is not that impactful (speaking of actual gameplay not total numbers) - the majority of traits just boost certain abilities by a few %, that's all there is to it, due the stats squish you have to readjust the general feeling for numbers anyway.

The sole reason why people in the first place noticed those issues on Beta was because during Alpha / early Beta mobs you were stuck on template characters with green gear and mobs were stronger than they are now on beta, of course people felt a loss at this point because on live you are used to blowing 5+ mobs out of the water with a single spell.
Legion had the same shit going, i seriously struggled against mobs on 110 during Legion Beta as well, that's not unusual, that's part of the Beta cycle.

What hurts are the impactful artifact abilities (Odyn's fury,Stormkeeper, Strike of the Windlord, etc.) and the legendaries, because the defensive ones were powerful as fuck for doing WQ's.
On live, you just equip shit like Prydaz or Roots of Shaladrassil to solo an elite mob, on Beta, you can't, your class can do it or not.

Of course that triggered you. You feel so wronged by Blizzard that any hint that other players feel their Classes have lost some important things as well cannot be tolerated.

Again, feel free to raise those abilities, simply because they got removed as well doesn't mean they're as useful as Gust of Wind.

Your obsession with the loss of Gust is becoming frightening btw.

I'd rather discuss actually impactful abilities, not freaking 13% less damage after disengage.

So play one of those Classes and leave the rest of us to discuss our thoughts in peace?

No, because i like Shaman, it's just that Blizzard has the habit of screwing with Dps Shaman as far as mythic raiding is concerned.
And that's not just me saying, high level mythic guilds rarely feature Dps Shaman - one at best, and those guys usually need to have an alt at the ready for certain encounters.