Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[omeomorfismo]

Because blizz loves their RNG and for some reason refuses to accept that in today's iteration of the game it is not outdated. The overall standard of player, has actually gone up over the years even with a reduction of subs. Not only that but the addons/scripts available and use of third party simulators i.e simcraft has become the mainstream norm for the average player even playing at the normal level. Its a thing of the past that these tools were for the hardcore min maxers and it is expected in most guilds raiding at a normal/hc level to sim and maximise your play as much as possible.

As this mentality has grown over the years abilities like Posion Bomb, which is essentially there to break up the simplistic nature of a spec/rotation and add more "flavour", have been exposed in terms of bad design because so many more players care and have access to whats going on under the hood of their char that when they reach that level of understanding things begin to start to feel bad, as they can actually see what a large effect it has over their play/damage and because most of these players are now following the min max paradigm, this lack of control is very counter-intuitive to what they are trying to achieve i.e maximum output.

Basically the mindset has really shifted from "wow i got lucky with PB that fight look at my damage, even tho if forgot to pre-pot!!" to "ffs thats another 89% parse instead of a 90%+ because of shitty rng but i played perfectly pretty much" If so much damage is locked behind RNG it just now feels worse relativity because the majority of the player base is all about simmed output, rather than "im top of the meter", so will focus on the bad parses but feel frustrated because there is nothing but luck holding them back.

The problem however is also blizz has the bad habit of preaching "we will make passives to suit the less skilled player, but they will of course do less damage" but ending up doing the opposite because the active talent on the same row that's ment to compete with the passive and be better in throughput because of its active nature becomes too hard to balance and everyone ends up taking the passive and the min/maxers amongst us fall into the above mindset i.e forced to take something that takes away our control.

Is putting Poison Bomb as an active the answer; it really depends on how well its balanced against the other talents but for me yes it's a much better solution than out of date RNG.

Kingsbane is a great example of a talent that looks relativity simple but has much deeper synergy with the rest of the toolkit, i.e envenom and using toxic blade in its last 9 seconds. Its not going cripple the bad players for not maximizing these effects but gives better players something they can work with the push more damage that they have control over rather than rng.

to my knowledge use toxic blade in the last 9 sec is a loss. i can only achieve a parity, with the using it on cd, in tomb lining it only when under 30%hp & bl & could use 2 times under bl

[elfporn]

to my knowledge use toxic blade in the last 9 sec is a loss. i can only achieve a parity with using it on cd in tomb lining it onlt when under 30%hp & bl & could use 2 times under bl

depends on how fast kb comes back up, which is related to energy gen as a whole.

I line mine up, but i have kb coming up within 3-7 sec of tb

[Deleted]

to my knowledge use toxic blade in the last 9 sec is a loss. i can only achieve a parity, with the using it on cd, in tomb lining it only when under 30%hp & bl & could use 2 times under bl

depends on how fast kb comes back up, which is related to energy gen as a whole.

I line mine up, but i have kb coming up within 3-7 sec of tb

See already this is why talents like KB are so much better, as they can evolve over time, so much better than RNG fucked me.

[Mamercus]

just reading most everyone's replies. skimming through. BFA is going to tank. rogue is being made even less without some care of the devs. really time to move on from world of warcraft to find a new game.

It's not really that different in beta than on live. The main differences from a gameplay perspective are no SoT, no Kingsbane, mastery affects bleeds, and haste is not so bad now. Elaborate Planning doesn't seem like a bad talent now and that is very similar to SoT anyway in terms of gameplay.

[xDarkaix]

Maybe I have an unpopular opinion, but after playing Assasination on the BFA Beta, I am loving it so far, every other class I have played feels like crap, and I keep coming back to rogue, not sure how Sub is doing though.

[Crookers]

Hopefully crimson tempest ends up being better than poison bomb so we don't need to worry about it

[Pigglix]

Isnt crimson tempest already better than poison bomb if you go with the bleed build?

[elfporn]

Hopefully crimson tempest ends up being better than poison bomb so we don't need to worry about it

It won't be for single target. CT is a finisher with resource requirements. It takes away from envenom uptime too.

- - - Updated - - -

Isnt crimson tempest already better than poison bomb if you go with the bleed build?

There isn't a specific bleed build. Unless you're talking about using exsang. That row of talents will probably have a best talent just like the others.

[Crookers]

It won't be for single target. CT is a finisher with resource requirements. It takes away from envenom uptime too.

Yeah true enough.... I just wish they would increase PB to 20% chance per combo point and adjust the scaling down to 2% AP or something, it sucks currently

[Deleted]

Subtlety is so unpleasant on the ptr.. energy starving all the time. I hope they will give us energetic stabbing back or other energy regen mechanic because now its just terrible.

[Deleted]

Subtlety is so unpleasant on the ptr.. energy starving all the time. I hope they will give us energetic stabbing back or other energy regen mechanic because now its just terrible.

If you are play with DS then i agree somewhat, even with MoS the energy regen is not enough to take full advantage of the 6p finishers during dance, however only just, so even tho i'm dread to say it, higher haste will bridge that gap hopefully.

Have you tried vigor out instead of DS because you dont even need MoS to get out a full SS>2x 5p Evis during dance with that, feels a lot smoother and probably will be the goto talent for the first tier if not enough haste is available.

Our energy regen is now tied to Shadow Techniques (8 energy on autoattack proc) also making haste more valuable so i want to know basically are we going to be using more crit for a vigor build as there will probably be a soft haste cap on regen, then haste for a DS build and how much to facilitate full use of 2x6cp finishers during dance?

Also is vers gonna be better than mastery or vice versa

[Mafic]

Maybe I have an unpopular opinion, but after playing Assasination on the BFA Beta, I am loving it so far, every other class I have played feels like crap, and I keep coming back to rogue, not sure how Sub is doing though.

It is not an unpopular opinion as Assassination is one of the best designed specs in BFA.

The problem is the other Rogues specs and other specs from other classes in BFA are way behind.

[nocturnus]

Just reduce the damage and make it 20% chance per CP so we have more control over our AOE damage.

For that we have Crimson Tempest, which is awesome by the way.

That said, Poison Bomb is and has always been utter shit; since when has RNG being responsible for performance swings been a good thing?

[Sinte]

So I've been mostly playing outlaw on the beta just because things are dying too fast in normal dungeons (2 levels from cap) for sin. How is sin looking? Poison vs Bleed? I feel like with CT coming back, bleed might take over again. I know its doable on live but I'm talking EN bleed levels of good. What are your guys's experience with the two?

[elfporn]

So I've been mostly playing outlaw on the beta just because things are dying too fast in normal dungeons (2 levels from cap) for sin. How is sin looking? Poison vs Bleed? I feel like with CT coming back, bleed might take over again. I know its doable on live but I'm talking EN bleed levels of good. What are your guys's experience with the two?

There is no poison VS bleed anymore.

Bleeds and poisons are both affected by haste and bleeds are now on the mastery. Both types of dots are on equal footing.

Going forward it will come down to talent balance, playstyle preference, and azerite traits

[zaino]

If you are play with DS then i agree somewhat, even with MoS the energy regen is not enough to take full advantage of the 6p finishers during dance, however only just, so even tho i'm dread to say it, higher haste will bridge that gap hopefully.

Have you tried vigor out instead of DS because you dont even need MoS to get out a full SS>2x 5p Evis during dance with that, feels a lot smoother and probably will be the goto talent for the first tier if not enough haste is available.

Our energy regen is now tied to Shadow Techniques (8 energy on autoattack proc) also making haste more valuable so i want to know basically are we going to be using more crit for a vigor build as there will probably be a soft haste cap on regen, then haste for a DS build and how much to facilitate full use of 2x6cp finishers during dance?

Also is vers gonna be better than mastery or vice versa

Ds is easily the weakest talent on the tier MFD lines up with secret technique and symbols on that fat 30s cd and vigor is just really powerful due to current energy regen.

Will be very interested to see what perks Raid Azerite armor brings for perks because iirc we haven’t seen any yet. I know people hate the idea of needing items like that in order to play your class with any semblance of function but if you think blizzard learned from legion legendaries you’re probably fooling yourself

[Deleted]

just reading most everyone's replies. skimming through. BFA is going to tank. rogue is being made even less without some care of the devs. really time to move on from world of warcraft to find a new game.

I love a drama queen

[shaunika123]

Ds is easily the weakest talent on the tier MFD lines up with secret technique and symbols on that fat 30s cd and vigor is just really powerful due to current energy regen.

Will be very interested to see what perks Raid Azerite armor brings for perks because iirc we haven’t seen any yet. I know people hate the idea of needing items like that in order to play your class with any semblance of function but if you think blizzard learned from legion legendaries you’re probably fooling yourself

vigor is still pure garbage

both MOSH and SF are infinitely superior if you want to take an energy talent(which you must if you want the spec to be playable)

I think DS will be fine if you manage to get over the energy hurdles somehow.
I also dont think secret techniques will be worth it in single target

but yeah MFD Is probably the go to talent RN, especially since it synergizes with enveloping shadows which will probably beat DS due to find weakness.

[Sinte]

There is no poison VS bleed anymore.

Bleeds and poisons are both affected by haste and bleeds are now on the mastery. Both types of dots are on equal footing.

Going forward it will come down to talent balance, playstyle preference, and azerite traits

Well by poison vs bleed I meant more MP vs other two and TB vs Exsang.

[Raia]

Why people are complaining about rogues? Rogues are very good atm (raids/m+) what do you want? A skill that says Press to Kill? Really... Sad... i main rogue since Vanila and i think in terms of utility/damage we are in good place