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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by Angosia View Post
    I don't know of a single expansion I've been in with my rogue that I didn't feel starved for energy or damage at the beginning of each max level cap. Blue and green gear highlights this issue.
    But you describe the perfectly normal case. You start feeling the slower pace when closing in on max level. Right now you are hit with that slow down still having the same insane mythic gear at level 110; and ofc it becomes even slower when you level up to 120. Meaning that gearing will only bring you back to that prepatch pace, which is slower than Legion pacing.

  2. #582
    The slow game play isn't because of energy starvation.

    For example why is Blade Flurry on the GCD? Why does Outlaw have to deal with the GCD so much when the spec relies on globals so much now?

    Sub went from fun fast and fluid to being induced into a coma.

    Assassination is the best of the bunch because it actually is mostly improved heading into BFA. Outlaw and Sub took major steps back heading into BFA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.
    7.2 We fly!!!

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. So i'm going to expect a slow pace as usual for the expansion start which will be "fixed" with gear and eventual buffs during the expansion course.

    Basically, the sam ethings that happens every single time: apparently Blizzard isn't able to figure out a way to make rogues throughput consistent independently from gear and/or very specific abilities, which many times end making or breaking a specific spec.

    I had fun with Sub the little Legion i played and honestly i feel i missed a good time. Hopefully BfA will be better, and while i can agree that there are design decisions that make me worried, in the end it's about having fun and hopefully my rogue stays fun, as it has been for nearly 14 years.
    im just going to log in once bfa go live. just to see if its different. but mostly i think ill decide to not play bfa. i mean aren't you guys heavily winded after legion? is rogue the new warrior or something? idk nearly for 14 years.

  4. #584
    Mechagnome Pigglix's Avatar
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    So did blizzard fixed the new sub talent and the leeching poison for assassination on this build?

  5. #585
    Secret Technique doesn't work. Still.

  6. #586
    Yeah secret techniques still doesn't work and no animation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.
    7.2 We fly!!!

  7. #587
    Quote Originally Posted by Thieves cant View Post
    enjoy you're infraction Drayiicha



    Infracted.
    Ye, got an infraction - and you went and did this! xD

    No hate, just hilarious. We've both been spanked now

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; Yesterday at 11:32 AM.

  8. #588
    Lol we got shafted this build only once change and it’s to a not so used sub talent

  9. #589
    Bloodsail Admiral
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    Quote Originally Posted by zaino View Post
    Lol we got shafted this build only once change and it’s to a not so used sub talent
    Hardly shafted, but annoying STech still doesn't work...

    If anyone is being shafted its our buddies the Shadow Priests, they have been taking the D so hard all Alpha/Beta at this rate they will all goto release with bum holes that look like the Japanese flag!!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Charles View Post
    But you describe the perfectly normal case. You start feeling the slower pace when closing in on max level. Right now you are hit with that slow down still having the same insane mythic gear at level 110; and ofc it becomes even slower when you level up to 120. Meaning that gearing will only bring you back to that prepatch pace, which is slower than Legion pacing.
    After copying my char across the only spec that feels to me any slower at 110 is sub imo and thats mainly because we only carried over shadow's whisper from the artifact and not energetic stabbing.

    Sin feels very much the same, a methodical and smooth rotation of dots and pooling for envenom windows buffed by toxic blade. The pace quickens abit when playing with exsanguinate but not that much. The sustained aoe is really nice now wit the addition of CT. It just feels solid.

    I've been playing Outlaw with SnD and Ghostly Strike, it basically feels like a much better version of Cata Combat, really fast paced almost gcd locked, i will admit you do need vigor tho for the times you dont get pistol shot procs. Deep Strat version really needs quick draw to smooth out the energy regen when trying to build 6cp, so its slows the spec down a little but it still works fine. I don't really like RNG (who does tbh) being a large dictation on my output so generally shy away from RtB and Loaded Dice. One thing tho this spec will be a fucking monster in lower mythic keys, the burst you can do with blade flurry now is hilarious.

    So yeah, sub feels a lot slower if you dont play the vigor build, which im sure wont be the optimal way to play now i've had a full test. Everything in the toolkit seems to want to operate now around the 30s cd of symbols,MfD and find weakness windows. Using shadow focus you can literally pump a metric fuck ton of finishers and shadow strikes into the symbols window with FW up then go back to maintenance after blowing your load and regen resources until symbols comes back up. You can rely on rng for ST to faciltate more DS procs or i preferred using enveloping shadows for the extra dance charge to make sure i always had at least 2 dances going into the symbols burst phase. So yeah the pacing has slowed down in respect to this but it works as you see all your shit regening for the next huge burst window..............dare i say it a little like WoD

    Just annoying STech was not working but kinda think MoS is going to be needed anyways.
    Last edited by Osanger; Yesterday at 03:23 PM.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Slim Charles View Post
    But you describe the perfectly normal case. You start feeling the slower pace when closing in on max level. Right now you are hit with that slow down still having the same insane mythic gear at level 110; and ofc it becomes even slower when you level up to 120. Meaning that gearing will only bring you back to that prepatch pace, which is slower than Legion pacing.
    Eh, I'm not so sure that it is slower than Legion pacing. The exact same issues have popped up literally every expansion on how slow/clunky gearing is. And, you know, as sucky as it is, that's by design. They up the pacing mid-major patch and it is always slow when the new one is introduced. This isn't unique to this expansion or even this class/spec.

    It can't be "the perfectly normal case" and be "slower". They are mutually exclusive. One indicates normality and nothing unusual. The other is a superlative (or, perhaps even diminutive, but still indicating something outside of the normal).

    I'm less concerned about where we are now (i.e. when we hit 120) than I am where we will be (end of first, second, and third tiers). They've shown they will do patching (every expansion) address balance and quality of life issues. So, if they follow through with that, I don't see a long-term problem - but the short-term is obviously going to be less ideal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    The slow game play isn't because of energy starvation.
    Well, it is that for me. But, then again, we're going for 65-68 APM to substantially less (maybe 30?) in this iteration. GCD isn't the cause in what I've seen so much as energy starvation and unable to hit the next ability due to that. I'm also of two minds on this issue. One: Because we are at higher gear levels in Legion (as with every expansion), the frenetic button mashing is pretty much a requirement to keep pace with DPS. A hyperactive hamster on the keyboard is the image I conjure every time I think of this spec and our gear in Legion. Two: Our customary use of the spec has been so ingrained that seeing anything else will seem like a pretty big shock.

    For example why is Blade Flurry on the GCD? Why does Outlaw have to deal with the GCD so much when the spec relies on globals so much now?
    I'm not sure the answer will be liked by anyone (myself included). It's their logic on how too many abilities are off the GCD. It can't be "fine" if another spec or another class feels this and we don't. That would be a double standard. That said, I haven't had any substantial issues with blade flurry beyond inconvenience in beta. I'm still doing more aoe damage when it is active than anyone else except maybe hunters. I have to time it a bit better, but that's more of a player issue, not an ability problem. I'm still getting used to the change.

    I've seen folks couple it with either killing spree (which is what I prefer) or the talent next to it in the tree. I like the on-demand burst for single target or AOE, but math hasn't been done yet (due to it being beta) to see which of those level 100 talents will end up being objectively better. That said, even if I ignore Killing Spree, I haven't really noticed too much the issue with the GCD on Blade Flurry so much as the long duration between cooldown and availability. That's probably the harshest penalty.

    They will be very unlikely to change the cooldown, which I see as the biggest obstacle to our DPS. I think they are equally likely as unlikely to fix the GCD issue (which isn't where our biggest loss will be).

    Slow and clunky? Not really. Slow due to artificially introduced long duration cooldowns on our aoe? Yes. We are going from the strongest aoe spec rogue to pretty middle of the road on aoe. Is it still better than assassination? Yes. Is it better than subtlety? I don't know, I haven't run with that spec in a very long time as it hasn't appealed to me.
    ----
    Note: Use of apostrophes does not make a word or concept plural, it becomes possessive instead or is a contraction of two words.
    Common sense isn't.
    Oh yes, Word Crimes

  11. #591
    You can do a character copy and notice the GCD is still an issue on the PTR for example with well geared characters.

    However, with that said I think haste gearing will benefit all three Rogue specs greatly down the road. But BFA Blade Flurry for example being on a GCD is bad, because it doesn't have a damage component to it. Old Blade Flurry, when it was a cool down, also had haste attached to it though but that was also a different era of the game. That haste from old Blade Flurry was eventually moved over to Adrenaline Rush.

    As for number tuning that hasn't really happened yet and a lot could change. Also remember that Outlaw in BFA will be more reliant on white damage and the combo point generation was purposefully throttled back (eg no more extra combo point from a second Sinister Strike).

    So even if you have high enough haste on gear BFA Outlaw is objectively slower than Legion Outlaw.

    As for Sub Rogue in BFA it is hard to tell what they want the spec to be because it seems Secret Techniques is the lynchpin of what they are trying to do or I assume that is the case. But if that is all they have for Sub at this point that would be disappointing because the spec needs a lot of help to really stand out.

    Assassination is simply a breeze and fun to play because no one expects high actions per minute with this spec. But bleed and poison builds now scaling with haste has potential to be very interesting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.
    7.2 We fly!!!

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    You can do a character copy and notice the GCD is still an issue on the PTR for example with well geared characters.
    I did this in beta (oddly got an invite the day beta character copy was enabled). I didn't really see a problem there. Did I notice the GCD? Yes. Did it negatively impact me playing, nah.

    However, with that said I think haste gearing will benefit all three Rogue specs greatly down the road. But BFA Blade Flurry for example being on a GCD is bad, because it doesn't have a damage component to it. Old Blade Flurry, when it was a cool down, also had haste attached to it though but that was also a different era of the game. That haste from old Blade Flurry was eventually moved over to Adrenaline Rush.
    I wonder if this is something they will eventually add. I suspect not for the simple reason that it would push haste ahead of all the other stats again. They've done a pretty good job of tuning the secondary stats to be very close to each other. While not perfect and could use some tweaks to make it pretty much identical, I suspect this may happen in later patches.

    As for number tuning that hasn't really happened yet and a lot could change. Also remember that Outlaw in BFA will be more reliant on white damage and the combo point generation was purposefully throttled back (eg no more extra combo point from a second Sinister Strike).
    No argument there. Though, I'd add the color that the white damage is also doing substantially more than before (especially with S-n-D if you choose that). And, interestingly, our mastery is no longer negligible (at least with S-n-D).

    So even if you have high enough haste on gear BFA Outlaw is objectively slower than Legion Outlaw.
    By design. Even if we do eventually get lots of haste late expansion (2+ years from now), I don't know that I'd want to hit 65-68 buttons (APM) a minute again and average about 0.9 seconds of frenetic button pushing. If we can achieve the same amount of damage with fewer (40-45) buttons a minute (APM), I'd take it. It doesn't have to be 20 or 30, but there can be a reasonable compromise without damaging the ability to put out damage.

    Assuming they don't tweak any more individual abilities and they just want to ramp up the overall damage, they can adjust the passive for our spec to do exactly that (it's a way to ensure we reach where they want without affecting any of our rotational abilities). Conversely, if an ability is doing too little or too much damage, they can also tweak that individual ability (though it is substantially more likely to affect our priority/rotations if they do). I suspect the former tweaking will occur more frequently than the last (though I'm not going to say either/both will not occur).
    ----
    Note: Use of apostrophes does not make a word or concept plural, it becomes possessive instead or is a contraction of two words.
    Common sense isn't.
    Oh yes, Word Crimes

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