Missing the 10 man Raids

[Iskariott]

i dont want 10 and 25 man raids next to each other, but i liked 10 man karazhan, and 20 man raids in the old days. there was a special feel to small raids. however no need for competive 10 mans

[Deleted]

They could just have used the scaling mechanic they have on LFR, normal and HC though. It's just Blizzard being lazy, thats all.
Besides, it's not like the balance in Legion was that great anyway. ToS is one of the worst designed and balanced raids in WoW history after all. Flex size would not have made it worse.

No they can not, and des ToS would have been was worse. If 10 man is a thing blizz cant expect every class to be there. Just think of hydra shot, sisters (10man lul), aggramar, high command, portal keeper.... Do you even think before you Start typing?

[Jastall]

I want 10 man content back, but in a different manner than a flexible raid size. Some quest lines just end abruptly (Gorgrond) or build towards a conflict you don't really see to fruition (Stormheim)- I'd be stoked if they brought 10 mans back as something harder than dungeons, yet easier than raiding that served as a plot device or means to end a storyline.

It will never happen because people that aren't willing to group up or use the group finder will complain incessantly everywhere about 'muh story' though- combined with the fact that there's no reason to lock it to 10 man and just make it flex to begin with.

They tried to have a separate 10 man raid path in BC and it was basically just Kara. Blizzard doesn't really want to throw resources at smaller raids. They'd rather do stuff like ToV I'd wager, which did wrap up the story of Stormheim and Odyn.

In the end, I just don't think the actual number of people who 1) will raid at a level approaching Mythic and 2) also will only raid 10 man groups, is just too small. Blizzard won't go out of their way to placate them. They, and we, know the consequences of making 10 man an actual difficulty.

[Deleted]

Raiding 10m was the best times i ever had in WoW.

[RobertoCarlos]

10man raids ruled. Less options doesnt, that is all.

[Ningjinq]

It could be even more drastic in BFA if they add more mechanics that can only handled with certain classes. Such as fears in raids with tremor Totem.

- - - Updated - - -

10man raids ruled. Less options doesnt, that is all.

20m adds more options for raid design. Fights like Antoran High command, Kingaroth, would need quite different designs for 10m.

[Deleted]

Definitely miss 10 man. We've been trying (and failing) to keep a roster of 20+ for mythic ever since they changed it, that was what, four years ago? At this point I've almost given up which will mean giving raiding up completely.

[Deleted]

More like heroic needs to be harder and mythic needs to be removed and replaced with ulduar style challenge modes that reward cosmetic weapons and gear.

I'd be ok with going back to 10 man aswell.

[Sonnillon]

The guild I am in, was a 10-man guild to begin with and personally I don't miss the 10-man factor of it. Right now how FLEX-system works is ideal for casual/socials guilds. All get a shot to raid, have fun with guild members and if they are not up to the task on certain boss, then they just sit out.

Not saying that tuning for normal/heroic for smaller/larger sized groups is bit weird at points. But having the highest difficulty (mythic) be a fixed size makes balancing encounters easier for the developers. And the present size of 20 for mythic might keep some of the guild out from mythic scene, but at the same time I personally feel that with the present design of encounters 20 is the actual "sweet spot".

But at the same time I see the struggle what smaller, tight knight groups face when they are ready for mythic, but just cannot do it.

Although what Nemmar said seems like a very nice idea as well about so called hard-modes.

[druidikz]

Wish we had the ability to do mythics with 10 people as well as 20

Yup... I raided 10 man my whole life with the odd 25 pug. I do like the convenience of being able to scale it like Flex was in MoP!

At the same time I do enjoy 2 tanks, 2 heals, 6 dps though.

[fallenangel-succ]

Whether it's imposed by Blizzard or not, Mythic will always have a set number of people going into it. It won't ever be flex. Their time will always be better spent making new content than tuning the same content for unlimited possibilities.

I disagree. I don't think every guild is the same, and saying things like "people will figure out the optimal number of players and act accordingly" is assuming a certain mentality which is not shared by everyone. Yes, Method will do it. Method also do a lot things which don't affect the 99.9%. For others, they don't use optimal setups now and I don't think they'll drop half their raid team to do a boss either.
The largest by far barrier to entry to mythic raiding is the constant roster management and the dreaded bench dance. Not content difficulty, not the fixed raid times. This is why officers quit and guilds die, it just wears you down. A fixed 10m raid won't solve that - but (somewhat) flex mythic will.
Ask yourself why you prefer 100 players to have a fine tuned WF race over the improved quality of life for a multitude more. Balance is one consideration, but it's not the only one.

[Siglius]

I'd rather have that they made big-ass dungeons like the new Kara and made them flex 5-10 instead. I think that would be great.

[Nhodjin]

My idea would be to make mythic raids 15-20 flex BUT balance it to 20 players. This would make sure that optimal raid size would still be 20 and that's what you really want. But it doesn't kill guilds that might have some roster issues for a few weeks or so. Yeah it's gonna be harder as 17 ppl but you could atleast go and do some bosses. I'm thinking the balancing would be around mechanics and such and allow flex for health and such. Might not be possible to do something like that, but the amount of guilds dying because they lack 2-3 ppl at times is a problem.

[Mazzeric]

Really the only way 10man raiding can come back is in the the form of a new ZA or Kara, a raid that is 10man only and whose mechanics are designed for exactly 10 people to handle. While I would love for that to happen, we've been without 10man raiding for so long that there's bound to be people left out of the group in guilds that have gotten used to flexible raiding and are home to people with erratic schedules.

It sucks, but 10 is just not the going number anymore. There's sufficiently challenging content at 5man and 20man sizes, but I don't think we'll see something in the middle again.

[Battlebeard]

Personally, I always hated the 10mans, for so many reasons. Mostly because the lack of the feeling of epicness. 10man, that is so few people, the bigger the raid is, the more epic the entire sitaution feels. Also the 10mans were so extremely toxic. In a 20+ group, people can die and you can still do fine, but if one or two persons die, you pretty much wipe and people go crazy. Maybe not as much as guild, but 10man pugs were a nightmare.

I also miss the 40mans more than anything in the game, and it's the biggest reason I prolly abandon Retail completely when Classic servers return. Big raids = epic feeling = awesomeness!

But on a more non-personal note, it's hard to balance multiple raid difficulties, so if there is one 20 size and one 10 size, it WILL be unfair. And if you ONLY go with 10man, then so many people would quit.

[Aggrophobic]

No they can not, and des ToS would have been was worse. If 10 man is a thing blizz cant expect every class to be there. Just think of hydra shot, sisters (10man lul), aggramar, high command, portal keeper.... Do you even think before you Start typing?

I do think and I don't see the problems. In some cases, soaking some abilities might be hard but the fix there is just to get a few more people into your raid.
But seeing as you have to resort to personal insults, I take it that you don't really have any arguments.

- - - Updated - - -

Class balance is directly tied to raid balance. If the classes aren't balanced, the raids can't be balanced around bringing every class.

And raids are not meant to be balanced, they're meant to pose a challenge. ESPECIALLY Mythic modes, they have been balanced around what Blizzard determined was a proper scale. It's not subjective whether it's balanced or not when it comes to raids OR classes - The classes are balanced if they all bring equal utility and damage. The raid is balanced if it is doable - Which, save for some bugs, has been the case.

If you're talking damage then classes are well balanced in Legion but if you take into account things such as utility and the like then Legions "class balance" is horrible. No way around that.

- - - Updated - - -

The solution to a shaky balance is to make it even shakier? Blizzard clearly learned their lesson in Antorus which is a far better designed and balanced raid.

But making it flexible would be a nightmare. How do you really make a flexible Eonar? Flexible Kin'garoth? Flexible Coven? While keeping all the mechanics and difficulty, obviously. It would just lead to shitty situations where players figure out that boss X is easier with 12 and sit everyone else, then boss Y is easiest with 22 so now they gotta get 10 more people who will mostly be sat for boss Z who is easier with 15.

The only way I see Blizzard re-implementing 10 mans without affecting Mythic's balance and design, is if they had a special 10-man difficulty that would be explicitly easier than 20 man. But then these people could just run Heroic with 10 man.

No, Antorus is also poorly designed only they removed some of the soaking (that they had in testing) and made most bosses really easy.
I get that felx would be harder to balance but it's hardly impossible and Blizzard being too lazy is the reason it was never done.

[Hallaster]

Well seems there are allot of favor for both styles , I honestly hear everyone that likes it currently. I am just being honest when i say some of my most remembered experiences was learning fights where one mistake meant trouble , losing two people meant a wipe , I think the level of skill that was created because of that pressure was fun and challenging. Oh , I so would enjoy a 20 man if we could actually have everyone show up , we finally got 20 last night and even had to start with 19 but atleast we worked on Hounds and almost had it.But the challenge is real for us to fill that group week to week.

Thanks for all the reply's and opinion's

[Jastall]

Well seems there are allot of favor for both styles , I honestly hear everyone that likes it currently. I am just being honest when i say some of my most remembered experiences was learning fights where one mistake meant trouble , losing two people meant a wipe , I think the level of skill that was created because of that pressure was fun and challenging. Oh , I so would enjoy a 20 man if we could actually have everyone show up , we finally got 20 last night and even had to start with 19 but atleast we worked on Hounds and almost had it.But the challenge is real for us to fill that group week to week.

Thanks for all the reply's and opinion's

I understand the roster boss issues. IMO Mythic could have been 15 men, albeit any fixed raid size will cause issue for some people at the end of the day. At this point it's too late to change it.

But as to the point of 1-2 people dying putting pressure on the raid, that's also the case in Mythic for the harder bosses. Blowing a brez on dummy DPS means that if the tank gets smacked by Forging Strike or Teasalach Technique, it be a wipe. If you don't brez the dummy, you might have a hard time passing DPS checks and it cascades from there.

[fallenangel-succ]

Flex Siege of Orgrimmar already proved that everyone will do it. It wasn't even the highest raid mode, when flex SoO came out, nobody went into Flex with more than 14 people, because as soon as you hit 15 people all the mechanics gained additional targets.

It's not 'assuming a certain mentality.' It's looking at what we've ALREADY seen happen in the past and recognizing that this is how the playerbase is now.

Except that was mostly PUGs. Did established guilds sit out members to not go past 14? I doubt it.
At any rate, the argument is mostly to have SOME flexibility, say +-2/3 players. Just being able to include all raiders at a given night, without the hassle of benching someone.
Will a certain boss be easier at 18 or 19 or 22? So what? No one trashes WF guilds for say, bringing 0 melee for coven even though this sort of setup is unrealistic outside the top K, or for doing 7 splits to artificially gear up.

[Artemol]

10 / 25 man discussion is useless and for casuals - WE WANT HARDMODE Mythic Encounters - Like Flame Leviathan / Protectors of the Endless. Give us THAT and we'll be happy.