Missing the 10 man Raids

[fallenangel-succ]

That is 4-6 extra numbers of players that they need to tune the raid for, else one of those numbers are going to be 'the best' and therefore 'the only one that matters.'

Yes. It will be. So what? Why is the so-called balance (which is hardly real, as normal guilds do not have access to the army of alts WF guilds have) more important than other considerations?

So because world first guilds do it, it's ok to cheese fights? Fights shouldn't be designed around being cheesed.

Exactly the opposite. If they do it (which is fair, they strive to be first and do the fight undergeared) doesn't mean everybody else will follow in their footsteps.

[fallenangel-succ]

First of all, every guild has just as much access to an army of alts as every other guild. Nobody CAN'T have alts - You're only limited by the amount of time you have to play the game.

I can't believe I have to say this but...in practice, a WF guild raider certainly has more raid-ready alts than a raider in a 1K guild. Thanks for sharing the info about being able to create characters though. Learn something new every day.

Second, it's important because balance is important to every guild. If the raid isn't balanced at every level, not only can guilds cheese encounters by swapping people in and out as the raid goes on (Imagine fighting one boss with 15, another with 18, a third with 12, and a fourth with 16?), but they also are MORE likely, not less, to sit people mid-raid.

You're just throwing numbers. The band that is mentioned is say 18-22. This doesn't break balance in a terrible way - not more than not having access to 5+ of the flavor of the fight DPS class does.
You seem to think that every single mythic guild is all about killing the boss as fast as possible. As someone that went from HC in the past to HC in Legion (with flex raids) to mythic, it'd be a breather to be able to not juggle and force people out of your raid because that's how the game works. If you don't feel that pain, then you never sorted a mythic raid.

[dd614]

Would greatly prefer 10 and 25 man mythic options as opposed to 20. I know the 5/11M ultra-elitist green parse crew who hate it when other people have fun will be enraged and triggered, but I think the vast majority of players would prefer a 10 man option. I'm a casual fill in for my guild's mythic run(work keeps me out of it), and twice so far this expansion they've fallen apart because they have 12-13 great players and needed to either guild merge or recruit useless players to simply fill the ranks. Eventually carrying unfocused or bad players wears on a guild and it falls apart.

So yah, go ahead and drop some snarky white knight for blizzard reply if it makes you feel better.

[God Save The King]

Adjusting the raid size is only a short term bandage, something that the WoW devs actively discussed when talking about the shift from 40 -> 25, and 25 -> 20, I think it was in the Q&A from a few months ago.

If you have a roster of 22-24 people, and then shift the raid size to 15, then many of your raiders will quit/move on to the bench. This in turn makes it much harder to fill a 22+ man roster with a raid size of 15. So your roster will shrink to 17-18 people. And the exact same issue we have today will be back. It'll take a year or so, but it'll be there.

Suggesting that 10m raiding will do much of anything except possibly make the raid leaders job a bit easier is silly. It's fine to prefer a smaller size, of course, but to act like it was the pinnacle of raiding and will fix every problem is just disingenuous.

The real issue with long term raiding is reliability and scheduling, which is not a game issue, it's a people issue. In theory, it'd be awesome to have a raid core of exactly 20 people, and they all have 100% attendance. Unfortunately, that is not feasible.

[fallenangel-succ]

This is false. In practice, a world first guild raider has to do exactly the same thing as you do to have that many raid-ready alts. You could have just as many raid-ready alts as he does if you played them all.

Do try to keep up.
A raider in Method has (not can have, not is entitled to, not paid for), HAS, more alts than a player in a 1K guild. This is a fact.

You have examples then, of fights which scale 18-22 in mythic?

I mean, you are here claiming it doesn't break balance, so you must. Otherwise you don't actually have a point or any real evidence to support your claim whatsoever.

The fallacy here is assuming mythic is tuned on a knife's edge to begin with. There are many variables - the major ones being raid setup and gear - that there is some leeway here, certainly for the vast majority of bosses. Adding another won't break the game. Heck, make it 20-24, and just scale damage and mob HP.

That's not just a Mythic guild thing, that's literally an every guild thing.



I have indeed sorted a mythic raid, and you say "It'd be a breather to not juggle and force people out of raid" while advocating for a change which would force you to do just that.

If the raid allows for 18-22 people, and this boss is easier with 18 people, a good mythic raider will go with 18 people. If the next boss requires 20 people, a good mythic raider would go with 18, then add 2 people for the boss that's easier with 20 people. If the third boss is easier at 19, a good mythic raider would drop one after the 20-person boss to go to the third boss with 19.

"I won't do that" doesn't mean it won't become the norm. Your experience and what you personally would do is entirely irrelevant to the conversation. This change would be bad for the game as a whole because this is exactly how raids would be run going forward, even if it is not what you personally would do.

Look, you keep spouting your subjective opinion as if it is a law of nature. This is going nowhere. The same thing that works for HC and normal can work for mythic. There is nothing magical about the 3rd difficulty level that is incorrect for the other 2. One is just tuned higher than the others, and that's it.

[Aggrophobic]

There are many ways around that. Just because your utility isn't useful for every situation doesn't mean you don't have it - That's kind of what makes it utility to begin with.

Every class's damage is relatively on par with one another, and every class brings some utility. Yes, some more or less than others depending on the situation - That's something they can still work on, and from the sounds of BfA they are indeed working on that. It's not so horribly unbalanced that one would never consider one class because there's another class that is better in every way shape and form.

Rogues in ToS says hi.
No, you're horribly wrong there.

[Enkrypt]

Wish we had the ability to do mythics with 10 people as well as 20. It's crazy how hard it is these days to get a steady 20 to raid enough to really progress.
Anyone else desire the small raid size options for those guilds that just can't seem to reach that magic 20.

I am sure it has been mentioned before i just know we currently sit on 10-15 people at most that can raid together and its hard to pug on mythics on same server.

Just a few thoughts let me know how you feel thanks.

I definitely agree.

It feels bad when you have 17-18 skilled, Mythic-level raiders online but someone got sick or is moving or something... and you have to cancel a raid night because of it. I understand that's what having a "bench" is for, but for us, that hasn't been something easily maintained.

Cancelled a handful of raid nights, which feels pretty shitty, because 2-3 people didn't/couldn't show up and they can't be replaced on a whim.

[Aggrophobic]

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate? I see at least 3 rogues in the top 40 logs for Mythic Kil'Jaeden, so obviously they're in the content.

And at least one Rogue in the top 10 (two on several) for at least the first four bosses of Tomb. So I'm failing to see how they were unusable.

Ehm... Yeah, they were broken in that raid. How could you have missed this?
Again though, we're not talking damage here.

[Trend]

Every thread about 10-man mythic raids has the same posts, all of which are irrelevant because they've already clearly said it is not coming back.

[Dangg]

Every thread about 10-man mythic raids has the same posts, all of which are irrelevant because they've already clearly said it is not coming back.

Yeah that's true and they arguments they've used why make no sense.

[Jastall]

10 / 25 man discussion is useless and for casuals - WE WANT HARDMODE Mythic Encounters - Like Flame Leviathan / Protectors of the Endless. Give us THAT and we'll be happy.

Yes, the system that has been meaningfully used for all of 5-6 bosses in the game's history is totally the key to raid design.

[HuxNeva]

Flex wouldn't work for the highest progression tier, as guilds would just figure out the sweetspot for each fight, and you would have Boss 1 14 man, Boss 2 25 man, Boss 4 10 man etc. So cut the scaling and pick a size. 20 seems reasonable for a raid size tbh.
Question is: there are so many guilds struggling to fill that roster, yet none of them want to merge. Why?
Could it be too many tanks not wanting to reroll?

[Aggrophobic]

Simple: I don't pay much attention to the whining of an extreme minority.

So they had plenty of damage, but were just 'broken.'

Again: Care to elaborate? Because if we've got good logs, they can't be broken enough to not bring to the raid, which is what I said and you are supposedly attempting to refute.

Are you daft? You stacked them, they were that good.

[Aggrophobic]

Got it, they were broken in the opposite sense.

I fail to see how that refutes my point at all then? I don't see how I'm "horribly wrong here" about no class being so bad as to be unconsiderable just cause Rogues were good one tier.

Did you even step in there? You clearly have no idea what your talking about here so why do you even try?

[Deleted]

300-man flex,

Yes, please.

[Saphyron]

I said it before. The difficulty behind a mythic encounter should not be able to bring 20 people on a raid night.
So I support both 10 and 20-man mythic raiding. Yes, it was harder to tune, and yes people whined over the worlds first race. But 10-man raiding had the by far larger demographic. I miss those days. I currently raid mythic.(small break due to real life fucking me over) But I miss the old tight-knit group. Now we have 6 healers 3 tanks and 21 DPS in the group and we always have to bench people. It would be better to just split into 2-3 teams.

[Mulled]

put simply if your guild cannot reliably get 20 people to even progress mythic then you shouldn't be in mythic.
And if you are having really big attendance issues then your guild should just die already and be done with it, don't beat a dead horse.

[MrKnowItAll]

I said it before. The difficulty behind a mythic encounter should not be able to bring 20 people on a raid night.
So I support both 10 and 20-man mythic raiding. Yes, it was harder to tune, and yes people whined over the worlds first race.

Now there is noone to whine about world first race since it has died down completely....like 3 guilds participating in the race.Having 10-man mythic the race would be a lot more interesting to watch since there would be many groups doing it.And as a 10-man raider myself i dont care if its harder or easier,i just love that tight-knit group and to be able to raid with my friends and fellow guild members of 12 years.None of the members from my guild are interested in merging with some random snot-noses just to raid 20 man mythic.Thats what blizzard thinks everyone should do now.

[Greylan]

Given the population of modern day Wow, 10 man needs to come back.

[Dom]

They've completely failed at making better boss fights with their newfound balance freedom. Nothing changed as far as boss quality is concerned. Nighthold was the only standout raid this expansion and Ion stubbornly ruined it with the artifact power grind. Tomb in particular was the worst raid since Dragon Soul. It's mind boggling how anyone can still support this raid structure. Stress out guild leadership twice as much so we can have 1-2 boss fights per raid tier that have a silly gimmick that forces you to bring a certain spec?

Early Cata showed Blizzard what people really wanted. 10m tuning was a disaster and people still overwhelmingly chose it over 25m. In a perfect world they would bring back 10m and have that be the only raid size. If any raid size is catering to nostalgia, it's 20m and up, not 10. Ion Hazzikostas is a selfish prick who just wants to relieve the glory days of BC and vanilla. They dragged the corpse of 25m through 3 expansions to do just that.