Holy Word Salvation (New BFA)

[Haywire5714]

Holy Word: Salvation (New) Heals all allies within 40 yards for [ 150% of Spell Power ], and applies Renew and 2 stacks of Prayer of Mending to each of them. Cooldown reduced by 30 sec when you cast Holy Word: Serenity or Holy Word: Sanctify. Can be cast in Spirit of Redemption. Can't be cast in Shadowform. Holy Priest - Level 100 Talent. 40 yd range. Instant (Channeled). 12 min cooldown.

Holy ball sacks.

[Nurasu]

Holy Word: Salvation (New) Heals all allies within 40 yards for [ 150% of Spell Power ], and applies Renew and 2 stacks of Prayer of Mending to each of them. Cooldown reduced by 30 sec when you cast Holy Word: Serenity or Holy Word: Sanctify. Can be cast in Spirit of Redemption. Can't be cast in Shadowform. Holy Priest - Level 100 Talent. 40 yd range. Instant (Channeled). 12 min cooldown.

Holy ball sacks.

Up against Apotheosis and Cosmic Ripple (lol). Prob take Apoth for 5 mans and Salvation for raids. Not much to think about, unfortunately. With Symbol of Hope improved and baseline, Holy Priests are looking like a solid raid team choice for BfA.

[Deleted]

Yeah, looks nice, but the CD is a point of contention for me, especially since we already have to pay for it with a talent point. I also have some concerns about them wanting us to ACTUALLY CAST renews, but apart from that, nice start. Definitely much more positive vibes than from shadow changes.

[Daedius]

Would love to see this in action with constant AoE raid damage... PoM spam covering the screen

[Noram54]

Would love to see this in action with constant AoE raid damage... PoM spam covering the screen

Salvation+Hymn? Mmmmmm...wait nevermind, it's an artifact trait that makes pom bounce around during hymn...

The cooldown reduction is an interesting idea, like adding another layer to Serendipity. Flash Heal/PoH reduces our Holy Words, which then reduce our new Super Holy Word... I actually really like this idea the more I think about it

[ttylol]

And worst case it's a 4 minute cooldown? Or less than 2 min if you spam Binding lol

[Mazzeric]

Well this is pretty nice actually, cause we'll feel less bad for just hitting holy words on CD, since we'll potentially be working our way towards being able to cast this twice in a fight. The echos that this spell will produce.. jesus.

It's a bit disappointing that they seem to be pushing the healer cd meta even more. I would have rather seen them prune and tone down the effects of healer cooldowns and place the emphasis more on triage and spell selection again but alas, that is their design for healing now I guess. But we also don't really have a sense of the new tuning, so there's hope maybe that it won't just be the cooldownfest of legion.

[Ophenia]

That looks completely awesome.

[Danner]

It is an interesting idea to put a super cooldown on the serendipity effect, triggered by the normal cooldowns. And the cooldown itself is pretty neat, I must say.

Cosmic Ripple ... depends on the size and impact of the effect. But being a passive up against two VERY neat abilities, I don't have too much confidence in this being much popular.

I really also like that they put CoH down as a competitor to Binding Heal and Surge of Light. That's an actually interesting choice, and I strongly suspect the right answer depend on content.

[deviantcultist]

Anyone else thinks that this is basically the skill Anduin used on the BFA cinematic?

[arizonapriest93]

(snip) it won't just be the cooldownfest of legion.

I haven't really felt that legion was a cd fest? Yes there are many moments where cd's are hella strong/needed for mechanics, but there is also plenty of actually interesting healing to be done throughout a lot of encounters imo. Overall I feel like the design is generally alright this expansion as there are compelling healing moments but also moments that ask for cd's I'd rather moments for cd's to shine with separate moments that require spell use.

CD's aren't getting you through M Aggramar add's phase; nor would cds resolve portal keeper's healing demands (not that it's high, just interesting). Even garothi, sure you can use a CD for decimation dot, but you still have more coming in. That isn't a cooldown fest, there is actual tactical healing occurring imo. Another example would be M Mistress, you weren't getting through that with a cd, sure barrier, SLT or general throughput CDs would help, but that wouldn't resolve the healing demands those fights present. (I don't feel like going into every fight but there are more examples) (although another one would be M coven's cold blood a cd isn't removing those healing absorbs anytime soon)

Thats my thoughts, yes CDs are strong right now but definitely not win buttons.

More on topic; I, like most probably, am pretty stoked about this spell sounds interesting, I've been a fan of the synergy within holy with holy words, and adding this to it is further interesting. We shall see!

[Mazzeric]

CD's aren't getting you through M Aggramar add's phase; nor would cds resolve portal keeper's healing demands (not that it's high, just interesting). Even garothi, sure you can use a CD for decimation dot, but you still have more coming in. That isn't a cooldown fest, there is actual tactical healing occurring imo. Another example would be M Mistress, you weren't getting through that with a cd, sure barrier, SLT or general throughput CDs would help, but that wouldn't resolve the healing demands those fights present. (I don't feel like going into every fight but there are more examples) (although another one would be M coven's cold blood a cd isn't removing those healing absorbs anytime soon)

Eh, you're avoiding the standout example which is Mythic KJ. Healer cooldowns literally dictated your guild's success on KJ prog, and made the fight extremely difficult early on if you didn't have both a Paladin and a Shaman. The boss probably wasn't even killable without those specs. There aren't as many outlier examples in Antorus, but the healer meta is still largely dictated by all the "I win" buttons healers have (for encounters that are actually hard and that wall your guild; not bosses like garothi or coven). The power level of Paladin, Shaman, and Disc Priest is far above that of the other specs (I say this as a Disc main), and its because of their cooldowns.

Holy Priest either needs a serious utility bump (which it may have gotten in Symbol of Hope) or a serious cooldown bump (which it may have gotten in Holy Word: Salvation) in order to feel like it has a place in the healer meta. Seeing as they are going to get both, the class designers seem to be trying to bring healers up to par rather than toning things down. I'm mostly okay with that as long as every healer has something to bring to the table.

[worcester]

I'd say legion is a improvement from Mop and Wod in that you still get to use regular heals. But have to agree with Mazzeric that the power level (Sac Aura, Spirit link) and frequency (LW, revival) needs to be toned down. I'd say tranq is the perfect level of power and frequency.
However, the reality is encounters are designed around having powerful cooldowns, and having the option of a super cooldown is nice considering hymn takes so long do all its healing.

On Symbol of Hope. It fits the class fantasy as Holy was always the masters of mana (when spirit was a thing via Holy Concentration). We already exist in a world with Blessing and Innervate at least Symbol isn't unfair to anyone. Now where's my Inner Fire.

[arizonapriest93]

Snip

See even on M KJ (as a disc priest too, although holy presently because I find it more fun) I wouldn't say it was a cd fest. Yes you "needed" APT totem for the balls, yet I saw several strats just delay that add and send that person elsewhere. For SLT, yes it's powerful, but barrier did the same thing on the first volly crap thing that KJ did (for the life me cannot remember), in some cases I'd argue better depending on your state exiting the dark phase. Obviously yes hpals went nuts on healing adds, could those have been tuned to not require a cd, sure, but I actually feel like it was still compelling. It was okay that they had their moment (yes I'm aware hpals have a long moment, their toolkit is too niche), but I do not think it is a bad thing if specs have CDs that create awesome moments for them. DPS have it, why not healers? But overall I do not think it has been a cd fest. (my viewpoint on shaman on KJ is lower probably because our rsham really was out of her league on that fight and regularly mistimed her cds which lead to adaptation)

I do factor in other fights because you still heal them, doesn't make them irrelevant, if some fights have more cd asks and some don't that's okay, variety is good, regardless of where they stack in the order. In some cases I think harder bosses having them make sense, because it's a hard boss, you should have to use a cd, or bust your ass in some way to heal through a mechanic(s). Still not a cd fest imo.

As for disc, it's an outlier, the spec is a walking cd. It's just how it plays, I don't fully look at evang as a healing cd, not that it isn't, but it's such a core part of the gameplay that it's like a cd but at the same time is something else (you could almost state tactical healing). I do get the impression as if you think about, disc has a "cd" answer to almost everything or every other thing.

Disc and Rsham have great CDs, Rsham in particular (they have CDs that no one has anything remotely close to, primarily SLT). Hpal while having strong CDs, their biggest strength is they occupy a healing niche literally no other spec has. Which would be single target healing, and the capacity to do a significant amount of it in a short time as needed, smooth tank healing, while also contributing to raid healing in some capacity. When I think of a Hpal I'm not thinking about their cds, I'm thinking about how their healing is strong (if it's in a m+ then yes I'm thinking their utility).

[Mazzeric]

See even on M KJ (as a disc priest too, although holy presently because I find it more fun) I wouldn't say it was a cd fest. Yes you "needed" APT totem for the balls, yet I saw several strats just delay that add and send that person elsewhere. For SLT, yes it's powerful, but barrier did the same thing on the first volly crap thing that KJ did (for the life me cannot remember), in some cases I'd argue better depending on your state exiting the dark phase. Obviously yes hpals went nuts on healing adds, could those have been tuned to not require a cd, sure, but I actually feel like it was still compelling. It was okay that they had their moment (yes I'm aware hpals have a long moment, their toolkit is too niche), but I do not think it is a bad thing if specs have CDs that create awesome moments for them. DPS have it, why not healers? But overall I do not think it has been a cd fest. (my viewpoint on shaman on KJ is lower probably because our rsham really was out of her league on that fight and regularly mistimed her cds which lead to adaptation)

The problem is more, why would we ever take a non-Paladin or non-Shaman when we have access to their cooldowns and we don't sacrifice HPS to take them. Healing output is generally balanced between the healer classes in 2018, so the only thing we choose between is utility. The same two/three specs always win that debate. I would like to see a world where we can bring any healer class in any comp and not feel bad or held back. Even on fights where the cooldowns aren't needed necessarily they're always nice in emergencies.

I do factor in other fights because you still heal them, doesn't make them irrelevant, if some fights have more cd asks and some don't that's okay, variety is good, regardless of where they stack in the order. In some cases I think harder bosses having them make sense, because it's a hard boss, you should have to use a cd, or bust your ass in some way to heal through a mechanic(s). Still not a cd fest imo.

It's hard to make meaningful commentary about a healing meta for fights where healing composition didn't matter because the boss was easy. It's an elitist stance to take, but class differences don't really play out/aren't noticeable when there are no real demands on the raid. I realize I'm painting with a broad brush here; there is an enjoyable middle ground between easy and hard on some bosses (think like... Portal Keeper which has a decent healing requirement and is just overall a good boss). But for every one of those fights there's an Imonar where you just stack and cooldown through all the relevant damage.

To me, the amount and frequency of cooldowns makes fights boring because whenever there would be a demanding healing check we just call for a cooldown and then we're done with that mechanic or moment, or as Disc we just plan to top the raid for that part. Healing checks don't really exist anymore as a result. Last one I can think of was like.. Mythic Cenarius which was intense for pretty much the whole fight using the dominant strat.

Seeing Holy Priest get Holy Word: Salvation just makes me think... okay add yet another raid-saving cooldown to the list. At least with Symbol of Hope it's more of a mana utility spell instead of a raid-topping spell, which is interesting if mana continues to matter in BFA.

[ttylol]

Tranq/Hymn
Healing Tide/Chi-Ji/Aura Mastery (Mercy)
Spirit Link/Barrier/Aura Mastery (Devotion)
Revival/Salvation
Tree/Apotheosis/Power Infusion/Ascendance/Avenging Wrath

Assuming similar output, healing cooldowns would be pretty similar if:

Healing Tide became a talent in same row as Ascendance
Ancestral Guidance reworked into single target mitigation
Mistweaver gets some cooldown talent for increased healing
Disc's Rapture or Shadowfiend removed so the other can be tuned up

[arizonapriest93]

We're kinding hitting on the same points and I do get what you're pointing out. I would say yeah healing checks are definitely MIA, Cen was quite fun to heal, also eye boss on the non CD stacks (so for us this was going right into the eye if I remember correctly as the beginning was literally every CD possible). Aggramar can be fun on the add pops but once everyone is stablized it's just bleh.

The more I think about it, there is rarely a scenario when it's "we're falling behind on healing" damage or it's trying to stay on top of the healing, it's typically threatening damage comes in, poorly timed (think a crap timed add trigger on aggramar when it syncs with a flame rend, which is obviously mechanically issues but happens) it's not even a "healing check" it's a damage came in poorly timed, gibbed.

I'd actually really like to see another "healing boss" like dreamweaver or tsulong, I actually really hoped Eonar would fill that void. I'm unsure if they could even balance that right now with the toolkits, but I always found those to be at least semi-interesting.

[Mazzeric]

I'd actually really like to see another "healing boss" like dreamweaver or tsulong, I actually really hoped Eonar would fill that void. I'm unsure if they could even balance that right now with the toolkits, but I always found those to be at least semi-interesting.

Exactly this. It feels like all the "healing checks" of late are player-imposed and due to strats to maximize DPS rather than imposed due to boss design. Varimathras had such potential as a healer mechanics-focused boss, but the aura damage ended up being so trivial that we could focus our attention on Misery and it didn't even stress us out too much. Disappointing.

During raid progress for probably all of Legion it's been so rare to actually wipe to lack of healing being the main reason for attrition. Then I think back to previous expansions and there's so many fights that stand out where there were actually healing checks/burdens where the solution to the mechanics wasn't just "pop cooldowns, and if they aren't enough, just pop even more cooldowns." Some mechanics that come to mind:

- Aura of Despair, General Vezax, Ulduar Hardmode (link)
- Massacre, Chimaeron, Heroic BWD (link)
- Wrack, Sinestra, Heroic BoT (link)
- Penetrating Cold, Anub'arak, TOGC (link) in combination with Leeching Swarm (link) (needed to keep peoples' health just low enough so as to not let them die but also not let the boss leech too much health)

We really just have too many tools at our disposal now to bypass or overwhelm mechanics (or avoid completely 'cause lol Ancestral Protection Totem), and it's a problem. Tanks being mostly self-sustaining these days doesn't help either... so there isn't any compelling tank healing to do, either.

Okay this is way off-topic now, sorry. But it's an interesting discussion for sure.

[Deleted]

I quite like the changes to talents, but... Is anybody else concerned about the fact that Piety has been removed? I would rather keep this talent instead of Cosmic Ripple

Also, Divinity was removed and it is not baseline atm.

Any thoughts about that?

[Deleted]

I quite like the changes to talents, but... Is anybody else concerned about the fact that Piety has been removed? I would rather keep this talent instead of Cosmic Ripple

Also, Divinity was removed and it is not baseline atm.

Any thoughts about that?

Never liked short buffs, so can't say I will miss divinity. As for piety, haven't used it since getting 4 set, and did not notice it going away. Honestly, I dislike the current PoM design, where you cast it on CD because it will do tons of healing. I'm happy that t21 was not another PoM focused one, since it's a spell we have almost no control over. You just cast it on CD and hope it will jump well. Maybe if the instant cast would come back...