How is Balance in Alpha without Moons?

[Myztikrice]

There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes. Ultimately it came down to differences in direct. With that said, they absolutely listened to feedback. Here's everything I can remember our direct feedback impacting changes, most of these are from alpha/beta.
Owlkin Frenzy as our Artifact ability -- A literal random proc every 1sec with a 10% chance to trigger OKF that made your next cast instant. You literally could not react in time to make use of Lunar Strike.
Moonfire and Sunfire generating AP -- and then nerfing it from $ to 3 AP after our feedback about strength.
MoonMoon gameplay -- "New and Half Moons need to be worth casting in their own right" -- went from 0/0/100 to 10/20/40
Falling Star -- Grossly OP at lower levels. Imagine if it were 50% stronger (15% per point, up from 10%).
Soul of the Forest -- Severely underpowered, they made it reduce the cost of Starfall.
Starlord -- Empowerments used to provide damage or haste. Now it's just casting speed because of how the spell interacted with Stellar Flare.
Stellar Flare -- Used to consume Empowerments. Math was complex and dynamic buffs made it a nightmare. It was a noob trap as well. Now it just needs a little love on that AP cost.
GCD caps -- Literally everything that buffs our casting speed reduces the GCD beyond the soft cap. (You don't worry about the GCD anymore.)
Incarnation -- Off the GCD.
Wild Charge (Moonkin) -- Usable out of combat.
Wax and Wane -- Either too strong or too weak to have an impact. (when the effect was added, it was horribly underpowered.)


They listen.

This doesn't really mean much without the context of what they didn't listen to. There's nothing inherent to the changes in that fixed list that couldn't be explained by them wanting to change themselves.

[wing5wong]

There was a lot of discussion behind the scenes. Ultimately it came down to differences in direct. With that said, they absolutely listened to feedback. Here's everything I can remember our direct feedback impacting changes, most of these are from alpha/beta.
Owlkin Frenzy as our Artifact ability -- A literal random proc every 1sec with a 10% chance to trigger OKF that made your next cast instant. You literally could not react in time to make use of Lunar Strike.
Moonfire and Sunfire generating AP -- and then nerfing it from $ to 3 AP after our feedback about strength.
MoonMoon gameplay -- "New and Half Moons need to be worth casting in their own right" -- went from 0/0/100 to 10/20/40
Falling Star -- Grossly OP at lower levels. Imagine if it were 50% stronger (15% per point, up from 10%).
Soul of the Forest -- Severely underpowered, they made it reduce the cost of Starfall.
Starlord -- Empowerments used to provide damage or haste. Now it's just casting speed because of how the spell interacted with Stellar Flare.
Stellar Flare -- Used to consume Empowerments. Math was complex and dynamic buffs made it a nightmare. It was a noob trap as well. Now it just needs a little love on that AP cost.
GCD caps -- Literally everything that buffs our casting speed reduces the GCD beyond the soft cap. (You don't worry about the GCD anymore.)
Incarnation -- Off the GCD.
Wild Charge (Moonkin) -- Usable out of combat.
Wax and Wane -- Either too strong or too weak to have an impact. (when the effect was added, it was horribly underpowered.)


They listen.

You're right in one sense.
There were many changes and QOL improvements made, but some stuff seemed to be left too late, and became and "oh well" issue.
hopefully these issues acan be addressed earlier this time around.

[cparle87]

The still require keybinds. And 7 keybinds is a lot for a single target rotation. Most classes have 4 or 5.

You're an odd one. Didn't you get the memo that "pruning is evil give us all our buttons back more buttons equal more fun undo prune give back fun" that's been regurgitated over and over on these forums for almost four years? Balance really hasn't changed that much. Sunfire used to be insect swarm that had a hit debuff once upon a time. That and the eclipse mechanic changing every xpac and balance is pretty much what it was in BC. On that note I liked the controlled eclipse we had in Cata where our spells moved the bar over the 'the bar moves on its own during combat' that replaced it.

[Illusions]

I agree with the dead talents part. I never consider some of the talents we have, and I'm sure other classes are in the same situation, but they perhaps might at least find some usage once in a blue moon.

The rotation already feels simplistic without legendaries and just the artefact. Someone said that we have the most abilities, but I cannot just believe the other casters having any less spells. It feels absurd. Our rotation literally is keep dots up -> dont cap on AP/Moons -> empowered before unempowered. Removing Moons and it's just zzz.

I haven't even played other casters (so pls prove me wrong in all of this if u can), but it certainly does feel like other casters at least are a lot more dynamic than balance. It feels too much like a static spec, the spells don't interact with eachother, the rotation is quite predictable. I can probably do the rotation blindfolded for roughly about the same performance as I would without the blindfold.

I'd like to see some of the current talents getting reworks. A third dot could be cool - a lot more management. Perhaps Stellar Flare could be more of a burst-y dot? Or something that stacks? FoE could be more like a "combo point spender", where at 20/40/60/80/100 AP the effect increases - dmg done and the period too. Instead of having to maintain it so much awkwardly, like a worse shadow priest on high insanity stacks. Soul of the Forest seems alright in its current incarnation IMO, but it's very boring and bland.

Blessing of the Ancients - can anyone tell me why the An'she (the yellow one) one exists? Has anyone ever used it? Feels very redundant + it's ugly, which seems to be a theme with many of these talents.

[Cyous]

This doesn't really mean much without the context of what they didn't listen to. There's nothing inherent to the changes in that fixed list that couldn't be explained by them wanting to change themselves.

Okay. Emerald Dreamcatcher.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...page=3#post-57

Of course, they changed it a little more next patch due to power differences, but I'm pretty sure this is the example you wanted me to post.

Blizzard: "We're nerfing EDC because it's too strong."
Players: "We're okay with nerfs, but don't kill the weaving gameplay"
Blizzard: "Why?"
Players: "Because Moonkin, honestly, is pretty easy, and this playstyle is very hard to master. It's fun for us."
Blizzard: "The difference between good players and not-0so-good players is too high with this item."
Players: "Okay, but we still enjoy the playstyle -- we just don't want to dump Starsurges mindlessly."
Blizzard: "Balance Druid lacks variety, you guys aren't wrong. How about this change instead?"
Players: "Yeah, that's pretty good, sims are favorable for your tuning changes too."
Blizzard: "Awesome, thanks for the feedback."
-------- Then the patch dropped and retuned the effect from 7 AP/ 3sec to 5 AP / 5sec -------
Blizzard: "We still aren't happy with the power differences from good and not-so-good players."
Players: "It's not a nerf unless you're top5 world, so no biggy."
Other Players: "bliz sux, dumb nerf"
Players: "It's probably a buff for you."

And now we don't care about this change because OI is more favorable for movement, obviously, then EDC.

- - - Updated - - -

You're right in one sense.
There were many changes and QOL improvements made, but some stuff seemed to be left too late, and became and "oh well" issue.
hopefully these issues acan be addressed earlier this time around.

Once they go into code lock, it's pretty much the finished product (now going into the polishing phase). Mechanics are typically expansion-level changes unless there is a big issue that can't be easily resolved. (Tuning is easy. New code is rarely the answer.)

So, in a sense, it does get saved for later.

[Lucrece]

Okay. Emerald Dreamcatcher.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...page=3#post-57

Of course, they changed it a little more next patch due to power differences, but I'm pretty sure this is the example you wanted me to post.

Blizzard: "We're nerfing EDC because it's too strong."
Players: "We're okay with nerfs, but don't kill the weaving gameplay"
Blizzard: "Why?"
Players: "Because Moonkin, honestly, is pretty easy, and this playstyle is very hard to master. It's fun for us."
Blizzard: "The difference between good players and not-0so-good players is too high with this item."
Players: "Okay, but we still enjoy the playstyle -- we just don't want to dump Starsurges mindlessly."
Blizzard: "Balance Druid lacks variety, you guys aren't wrong. How about this change instead?"
Players: "Yeah, that's pretty good, sims are favorable for your tuning changes too."
Blizzard: "Awesome, thanks for the feedback."
-------- Then the patch dropped and retuned the effect from 7 AP/ 3sec to 5 AP / 5sec -------
Blizzard: "We still aren't happy with the power differences from good and not-so-good players."
Players: "It's not a nerf unless you're top5 world, so no biggy."
Other Players: "bliz sux, dumb nerf"
Players: "It's probably a buff for you."

And now we don't care about this change because OI is more favorable for movement, obviously, then EDC.

- - - Updated - - -



Once they go into code lock, it's pretty much the finished product (now going into the polishing phase). Mechanics are typically expansion-level changes unless there is a big issue that can't be easily resolved. (Tuning is easy. New code is rarely the answer.)

So, in a sense, it does get saved for later.

And sometimes you can be a lock, be told you'll receive fixes by 7.2.5, and then realize demo is going to be a dumpster fire for the rest of the xpac since they lied their asses off and buffed affliction numbers to hell to mask the blatant design flaws of the three warlock specs.

I don't think they've done any actual design intervention in the last few xpacs, so it seems prudent to make a judgement on a main based on how the spec plays by the time beta comes out.

[zeoos]

Best change they could make would be to add Oneth's bracer's proc as baseline, perhaps changed in some way by mastery.
And I agree that we need another generator spell since they take away our moon.

I shall spam BG's during this period and call down the full moon on as many players I can before they take it away.

Wouldn't it be possible that the azurite armor will bring the Moon back? Afterall, we are MOONkins.

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk

[huth]

And sometimes you can be a lock, be told you'll receive fixes by 7.2.5, and then realize demo is going to be a dumpster fire for the rest of the xpac since they lied their asses off and buffed affliction numbers to hell to mask the blatant design flaws of the three warlock specs.

I don't think they've done any actual design intervention in the last few xpacs, so it seems prudent to make a judgement on a main based on how the spec plays by the time beta comes out.

They don't do that kind of stuff unless it's gamebreaking. Since Demo is being held back by the issues and WL has two other ranged DPS specs, there wasn't much reason to intervene on this level.


Which is why we need some changes to our mechanically boring spec now.

[Rhaxus]

Wouldn't it be possible that the azurite armor will bring the Moon back? Afterall, we are MOONkins.

Sent from my Mi A1 using Tapatalk

wasn't there a full moon datamined, stat squished and all? i thought i saw it before and wondered why it wasn't on the alpha

edit: yup there it is
http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=202771/full-moon#changelog

[huth]

wasn't there a full moon datamined, stat squished and all? i thought i saw it before and wondered why it wasn't on the alpha

edit: yup there it is
http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=202771/full-moon#changelog

It's still just the Artifact spell, though. Once you drop the Scythe, you can't cast it.

[Lucrece]

They don't do that kind of stuff unless it's gamebreaking. Since Demo is being held back by the issues and WL has two other ranged DPS specs, there wasn't much reason to intervene on this level.


Which is why we need some changes to our mechanically boring spec now.

It was gamebreaking for demo. The spec is fucked.

It doesn't seem like such a big problem by the time argus comes out because catch up mechanisms are vastly improve, but by nighthold the investment into one spec precluded you from easy switches without being significantly behind in the artifact and legendary grind.

In BfA the big change is that you can have niche specs but no longer artifacts and legendaries sinking you into that spec, so even a balance druid and a feral druid can occupy different niches and switch back and forth with only the trinkets and weapon to worry about collecting as opposed to that horrendous legendary and relic system.

[huth]

It was gamebreaking for demo. The spec is fucked.

So it wasn't breaking the game. Just demo. That's not going to get you action, especially if you have more than one spec filling the same niche.(Meaning Tank, Heal, rDPS, mDPS)

[exochaft]

I haven't even played other casters (so pls prove me wrong in all of this if u can), but it certainly does feel like other casters at least are a lot more dynamic than balance. It feels too much like a static spec, the spells don't interact with eachother, the rotation is quite predictable. I can probably do the rotation blindfolded for roughly about the same performance as I would without the blindfold.

I still play my mage and shaman (I'm lazily leveling my warlock atm) enough to let you know that having a more dynamic rotation doesn't necessarily translate into a better rotation, especially when it comes to procs. The best thing about moonkin is the baseline rotation is very consistent... you throw in a legendary like OI to alter the rotation with a proc, suddenly you can get wild swings in damage output pull to pull. If you take elemental shamans or fire/frost mages (I don't like arcane nowadays, sue me), you can be at the mercy of your procs. For example, if you go >15 Frostbolt casts without proccing a Flurry, you don't feel good and have no control over it. Similar to OI bracers or proccing free Lavabursts: it feels amazing if it procs nonstop, but you'll feel terrible if you get long streaks of no procs. Even if your damage averages out over time and attempts, dynamic rotations tend to only feel good if they're consistent because you get a sense that you're in control of your damage output rather than being at the mercy of RNG.

If we're talking adding more depth w/o procs, i.e. something we can control, I'd be game for that. For those that liked the Emerald Dreamcatcher rotation, that's a good example of changing the rotation or adding depth without relying on random procs. Honestly, I wish talents were more like this. However, if you start adding so many layers and spells to the package, that can be just as bad as not having enough. If anything, I want to see more interesting interactions or a stronger reason to use Lunar Strike in our rotation (especially in AoE).