Beta Key Giveaway Week 3: Winners have been selected!

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  1. #141
    To be fair, I think most people hear the stories of "This rogue back in TBC spent all his EP on the glaives, gimping the raid for all progression then leaving". This gives them a bad impression of a poorly implemented system.

    It has advantages and disadvantages, like every system, but if you never used it, you will only hear the bad stories.
    "last week our guild had another drama free loot session" doesn't make a good story.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Gammonflaps View Post
    All this debate comes down to is:

    EPGP type systems are favoured by those who see loot as a reward for killing a boss
    LC type systems are favoured by those who see loot as a tool for killing the next boss.
    Pretty much nailed it with that.
    Even in the first case, I prefer doing Suicide Kings type of solution instead of fiddling with EPGP, but LC type system is superior for guilds that are building progression plans.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Filfa View Post
    First hand example.

    Shaman 1 is a core raider, in for every progression fight
    Shaman 2 is a bench sitter, only comes in when we're desperate for people
    Biggest problem with your guild is having a rank of "perma bench sitter". I've been once in a guild like that who had some "social - backup raider" type of people, these people would always be undergeared and lack experience because they'd only be slotted in if there weren't enough main raiders, but that, in my opinion, was fault of the GM who established this kind of rank. You need to have more raiders than slots to accommodate for emergencies, but it's more fair to rotate them than have one guy 99% of the time in and the other one 1% of the time when the first one has power outage or went to the hospital.

    Not even mentioning that bench sitters are prone to leaving because they come to realization they aren't seeing content, they aren't getting loot, and they're laughing stock of the guild due to being "second class raider".

  4. #144
    This reminds of the one guild I was raiding that used EPGP, I had 3 parts and it dropped the 4th on Gul'dan , I was higher on the points among the players that wanted the chest piece that dropped but someone else that had more points than me wanted to try for warforge ( he wasnt wearing the chestpiece set due to his chest being of a higher item level). So in the end he used his points to pretty much sell that gear on a vendor for 40 gold while we had to wait another week for an upgrade. On this occasion I almost left the guild as obviously I was outraged how the RL could accept such a thing as he said: " those were his points so he could do whatever he wanted with them". I dont use EPGP ever since.
    Last edited by Sabinn; 2018-02-19 at 07:51 PM.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienski View Post
    What i dont get is why guilds with casual players use loot council, as if it is going to make any difference whatsoever? effectively hurting your own team by only gearing a select few who you deem worthy?
    That's not how loot council works. I can't comment in depth for EPGP since I've never used it, but you're clearly misrepresenting loot council. Loot council basically means that the master looter makes a value decision if he/she has enough information to do so. Every group can have their own rules on how they want to do it, so a loot council doesn't have generalized rules. If there's a dumb rule you think it shouldn't apply, then most likely any decent master looter is not doing that.

  6. #146
    Immortal clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabinn View Post
    This reminds of the one guild I was raiding that used EPGP, I had 3 parts and it dropped the 4th on Gul'dan , I was higher on the points among the players that wanted the chest piece that dropped but someone else that had more points than me wanted to try for warforge ( he wasnt wearing the chestpiece set due to his chest being of a higher item level). So in the end he used his points to pretty much sell that gear on a vendor for 40 gold while we had to wait another week for an upgrade. On this occasion I almost left the guild as obviously I was outraged how the RL could accept such a thing as he said: " those were his points so he could do whatever he wanted with them". I dont use EPGP ever since.
    Holy crap people do none of you get the difference between:

    This is a crappy system

    and

    This system is run by clueless idiots who shouldnt be raid leaders?

    Your problem was a RL who misused EPGP. You don't have to say "most points wins, hurrrr..." as RL you can set policies that control situations like this. That many RLs are too stupid to do so isn't the fault of EPGP any more than it's the fault of loot council when a council decides to just gear their friends.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Holy crap people do none of you get the difference between:

    This is a crappy system

    and

    This system is run by clueless idiots who shouldnt be raid leaders?

    Your problem was a RL who misused EPGP. You don't have to say "most points wins, hurrrr..." as RL you can set policies that control situations like this. That many RLs are too stupid to do so isn't the fault of EPGP any more than it's the fault of loot council when a council decides to just gear their friends.
    Love your depth of thought, shame this comment will go straight over most peoples heads.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TelefonoGatewood View Post
    Pretty much nailed it with that.
    Even in the first case, I prefer doing Suicide Kings type of solution instead of fiddling with EPGP, but LC type system is superior for guilds that are building progression plans.
    Or....

    Epgp - favoured by people who like to earn there gear and will attend every raid.
    lc - favoured by people who like to slack but still get bis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Simiric View Post
    To be fair, I think most people hear the stories of "This rogue back in TBC spent all his EP on the glaives, gimping the raid for all progression then leaving". This gives them a bad impression of a poorly implemented system.

    It has advantages and disadvantages, like every system, but if you never used it, you will only hear the bad stories.
    "last week our guild had another drama free loot session" doesn't make a good story.
    the post man rarely gets a top review for delivering a parcel, but when a parcel is lost you can be damn sure the person will go out there way to leave a bad review.

    Exact same principle

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bewbew View Post
    Because full EPGP is stupid.

    I don't care some asshole hoarded all his points and wants some relic that is a marginal upgrade that he will be replacing from doing Heroic Argus.

    If it isn't his BiS, he shouldn't get priority on it, no matter how many points he decided to accumulate.

    Point horders end up undergeared and being carried anyway, so saying they are "playing, pulling their weigth and saving up" is ludicrous. Chances are they are the least equipped toons in the group.
    You are bang on the money, hoarders will only be worse off because every week there points get decayed, they get deducted a bigger wedge of points week on week than the guy who spends points. they arent getting value for money for hoarding points.

    That is why the only way epgp will work is with a high decay, so hoarders are getting screwed right in the ass, exactly like they deserve.

    I dont agree with the point about blindly giving items to those that it is bis for, i can tell you 1 thing for an absolute fact, as people become bis, they will begin taking holidays / rerolling alts. thats why i really believe in the depth of things gearing the raid evenly is more beneficial than gearing a select few, because once the select few get bis they will more often than not dissapear in some form, leaving the guild back to square 1! UNLESS... its a high end guild where the real purpose of raiding is to get a high world rank

    My last but 1 corrupt casual council guild did exactly this, but it was the gm, he geared his main and once he had everything he started attending on his alt taking items off the same people he took items off when on his main.....shocking.

    People always forget the fact that a 2nd - 1st bis upgrade may not be as powerful as a 5th-2nd bis upgrade, giving someone there bis could in actual fact be a minor upgrade.... there is a LOT of depth to council distribution if you want to do it correctly.
    Last edited by odamienski; 2018-02-20 at 04:09 PM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Holy crap people do none of you get the difference between:

    This is a crappy system

    and

    This system is run by clueless idiots who shouldnt be raid leaders?

    Your problem was a RL who misused EPGP. You don't have to say "most points wins, hurrrr..." as RL you can set policies that control situations like this. That many RLs are too stupid to do so isn't the fault of EPGP any more than it's the fault of loot council when a council decides to just gear their friends.
    hmm, It wasnt my intention to blame EPGP , I understand that EPGP is just a tool just like any other tools that can be misused.It's no denying that EPGP gives the necessary tools for bad RLs . Me avoiding EPGP is a way of avoiding bad RLs in a sense.
    Last edited by Sabinn; 2018-02-20 at 08:47 PM.

  9. #149
    The only thing i didn't like about epgp was that more often than not, it would end up with raiders hoarding their DKP for that one item that's Bis for 75% of the raid. People not taking gear beceause they don't want to lose points incase another item would drop later.

    Ofc some people don't care and will spend point on upgrades if they need it and epgp is a much simpler way to deal with loot when you are in a group like that. It just becomes a problem for the guild progression when you have too many hoarders passing on other upgrades just for the sake of having points.

  10. #150
    I've always liked Suicide Kings... then again we were a friends and family heroic guild with no drama so it was all good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  11. #151
    Mission Optimizer Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by odamienski View Post
    Just because everyone is doing something doesnt mean it is best.

    First thing i want to say is this

    I understand why top raiding guilds use council
    I totally agree that distributing items correctly is for the good of the guild at high end guilds.

    What i dont get is why guilds with casual players use loot council, as if it is going to make any difference whatsoever? effectively hurting your own team by only gearing a select few who you deem worthy?
    Because giving gear to players that die to mechanics is stupid. If you're not running personal, you're running loot council or an unfair group loot system (never again after my guild tried this in Highmaul).

    If you are good at mechanics and pull your weight on DPS, you should be rewarded with gear. If you suck ass at mechanics and/or pull dumpsterfire numbers, no, you shouldn't be rewarded for being carried, even in a non-Mythic guild. Why are you rewarding the carries?

    As for why EPGP/DKP/etc is reviled, it's just a horrible system. You either stockpile points into a blind auction and might still lose or you spend your points like mad and never have enough for what you need. There's also no telling if it's someone's BiS piece or not. The whole point of raiding btw shouldn't be the loot, it should be the challenge of killing bosses, and loot council makes it more about what's best for the raid rather than the individual.
    Uses the same signature for over a year, just randomly gets infracted for it recently.
    Placeholder signature is placeholder and will hopefully make me finish my shit (lol it didn't).
    Oh yeah, I'm a Druid and I also made a spreadsheet for the Order Hall that will continue in BfA.

  12. #152
    Immortal clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabinn View Post
    hmm, It wasnt my intention to blame EPGP , I understand that EPGP is just a tool just like any other tools that can be misused.It's no denying that EPGP gives the necessary tools for bad RLs . Me avoiding EPGP is a way of avoiding bad RLs in a sense.
    And loot council can be run corruptly. ANY system can be run well or poorly. EPGP doesn't mean bad RLs, that's silly. It's a tool, that's all.

    For midrange guilds with variable attendance it is probably fairer to deal with than other systems while still giving some control. LC is great for progression guilds with close to 100% attendance.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Polarthief View Post
    Because giving gear to players that die to mechanics is stupid. If you're not running personal, you're running loot council or an unfair group loot system (never again after my guild tried this in Highmaul).

    If you are good at mechanics and pull your weight on DPS, you should be rewarded with gear. If you suck ass at mechanics and/or pull dumpsterfire numbers, no, you shouldn't be rewarded for being carried, even in a non-Mythic guild. Why are you rewarding the carries?

    As for why EPGP/DKP/etc is reviled, it's just a horrible system. You either stockpile points into a blind auction and might still lose or you spend your points like mad and never have enough for what you need. There's also no telling if it's someone's BiS piece or not. The whole point of raiding btw shouldn't be the loot, it should be the challenge of killing bosses, and loot council makes it more about what's best for the raid rather than the individual.
    I am not a perfect player but im not a scrub either, in the one guild i joined we was on imonar hc (early release) and i ate a ball to the face, real bad play i hold my hands up. are we all not human?

    The thing is, there was someone from that moment on that thought i was a worthless noob, because of one mistake, first impressions last, sometimes people are blind to see the good plays as soon as they have seen one mistake, after that mistake i didnt make another one at all, whatsoever, but i was told by an officer that another officer was talking about replacing me because he thought i was bad, even after i topped virtually every healing log after that single fail for the following 2 months.

    After being bypassed on loot for 2 months i left and as soon as i did the officer in question who wanted to replace me messaged me saying "go eat balls to the face elsewhere"

    Do you see my point? one mistake and people think your trash, you can join a guild say for example 8 mythic, they have had 150 wipes on kingoroth, but because you make a mistake on your 4th attempt your a noob and not worthy from then on in.

    in past expansions i have had people raging at me in a new guild on the 1st attempt because i failed on something i knew nothing about and could do nothing about, this guild had 50 attempts on said boss and multiple kills, people are very very unforgiving, and this rolls over into decisions in lc, especially if you are new.

    In top end guilds git gud, as they say, no fails are expected, but in 2k world rank guilds get real, people are going to make a mistake, even you are (if you are in a 2k rated guild) the difference is when someone makes a mistake if they are in the guild for a long time it is overlooked or not noticed because people are freinds with that person so its fine.

    The best player you have ever played with will at some point in his life made a mistake or several.

    i stand by my point, biased decisions based on opinions.
    Last edited by odamienski; 2018-02-28 at 09:03 PM.

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