The lies and misrepresenttions of Titanforging

[HuxNeva]

If you believe the forums you'd think that the average LFR or even WQ exclusive player is running around in full Anthorus Mythic if not close to 980+ ilvl. The 'culprit' of this epic max expansion loot fiesta is the 'hideous' undeserved Titanforging system.

Problem is: it is simply not true.

I've been playing on my main since near start expansion. On that character I have killed over 1.000 Raid bosses on N or higher, done over 2.500 WQ's, most related to Emissaries, ran 700 M+ instances on record.

The highest TF I have ever seen in all that looting is a +35 (once, on a useless trinket form a M+). Looking at guildies and the pugs I ran with, I'm most certainly not an outlier on the RNG spectrum.

Does that mean there has never been a +50 or even higher TF in the history of Legion? Of course not. There are 4 million players, and due to the network effect I'm sure everyone has heard from a friend who's friend told him that a friend of theirs was in an LFR where some guy was dropped 970 boots with a socket.

But that is not a 'common' occurrence. It has odds like winning the lottery. The chances are abysmally low, and basing your gearing 'strategy' on running content in the hopes of things forging beyond a +15 can be considered a pure waste of time. Even hard min/max'ers should learn this simple rule.

That girl in your guild that was running high M+ keys 24x7 will probably not have much if any of an equipped ilvl gain over the others that just did the weekly HC Anthorus clear and the single +15.

TF is a great system in that it gives the promise of getting a potential progression reward, albeit with diminishing probabilities. It is the foundation on which 'lasting' content is built. Without it, WQ's would be done after leveling, dungeons would be 'done' soon after hitting level cap, and raids would be done after checkboxiing 95% of your 'BiS' list. You'ld spend the rest of your days waiting for the next raid tier to drop, complaining in trade and on the forums about how the xpac is devoid of content.

TF keeps it fresh, and I hope it stays as is in BfA.

[Osmeric]

You're entirely right. The anti-TF argument is a virulent combination of mathematical illiteracy and elitist douchebaggery.

[ReD-EyeD]

TF keeps it fresh, and I hope it stays as is in BfA.

Happy to see that there are reasonable people still in these forums.

Titanforge is good thing that makes things interesting, even killing the same boss for the 54th time. The problem was(is) with the ceiling, not the basics of it.

I don't think that there are people who actually believe in full mythic gear level LFR runner, but 980 Arcanocrystals still happen. And this exact issue is being fixed in BFA.

[Osmeric]

I don't think that there are people who actually believe in full mythic gear level LFR runner, but 980 Arcanocrystals still happen. And this exact issue is being fixed in BFA.

The problem with that isn't TF, it's the Arcanocrystal.

[ReD-EyeD]

The problem with that isn't TF, it's the Arcanocrystal.

Partially, of course. But getting a perfect statted 985 chest is also a damn big thing. But I honestly see it less and less these days. I feel like they already shadownerfed TF cap/chance ratio.

[Deleted]

My problem with titanforging is Blizzard's inability to balance a new raid tier with it in mind. I'm in a heroic raiding guild, not mythic, yet for each and every raid that has been released our guild has had the same gear if not better than what drops from the raid on release day, meaning aside from perhaps special trinkets and tier set bonuses, there's no real upgrades to be had in there (unless they titanforge) and we clear the raid way faster than what we're supposed to. Done with progress in less than a month and with nothing else to do other than mythic plus (mythic raids really isn't my cup of tea), raiding has felt incredibly dull and boring this expansion, with no real sense of progression at all.

Unless Blizzard can fix this in BfA I think I'm done with raiding for good, I'm tired of feeling like I have to enter mythic to get any sense of challenge when I'm not a mythic raider.

[SinR]

Partially, of course. But getting a perfect statted 985 chest is also a damn big thing. But I honestly see it less and less these days. I feel like they already shadownerfed TF cap/chance ratio.

Perfectly statted 985 Chest... that breaks a very powerful 4set.

[HuxNeva]

My problem with titanforging is Blizzard's inability to balance a new raid tier with it in mind. I'm in a heroic raiding guild, not mythic, yet for each and every raid that has been released our guild has had the same gear if not better than what drops from the raid on release day, meaning aside from perhaps special trinkets and tier set bonuses, there's no real upgrades to be had in there (unless they titanforge) and we clear the raid way faster than what we're supposed to. Done with progress in less than a month and with nothing else to do other than mythic plus (mythic raids really isn't my cup of tea), raiding has felt incredibly dull and boring this expansion, with no real sense of progression at all.

Unless Blizzard can fix this in BfA I think I'm done with raiding for good, I'm tired of feeling like I have to enter mythic to get any sense of challenge when I'm not a mythic raider.

You are right if you are talking about EN. Then they learned that lesson. NH and ToS had difficulty ramp- ups, and most guilds didn't plow through them face-roll. In fact, I suspect Anthorus was deliberately relaxed to avoid burnout after the long stretch ToS.

But again, it has little at the core to do with TF. While TF introduces some variance, at raid scale it is rather predictable and tuning with or without it is comparable. Look at your guildies. After a few weeks of HC on farm, how many pieces of non-raid gear are they still wearing? So by the time the next tier hits, only those guilds that killed the instance once and then retired will be disadvantaged, for the rest they will all be more or less at the same level entering the next tier.

If HC has become too easy for you, that is because Blizzard chooses to tune it that way. It is not because of TF.

[Atharaxie]

My problem with titanforging is Blizzard's inability to balance a new raid tier with it in mind. I'm in a heroic raiding guild, not mythic, yet for each and every raid that has been released our guild has had the same gear if not better than what drops from the raid on release day, meaning aside from perhaps special trinkets and tier set bonuses, there's no real upgrades to be had in there (unless they titanforge) and we clear the raid way faster than what we're supposed to. Done with progress in less than a month and with nothing else to do other than mythic plus (mythic raids really isn't my cup of tea), raiding has felt incredibly dull and boring this expansion, with no real sense of progression at all.

Unless Blizzard can fix this in BfA I think I'm done with raiding for good, I'm tired of feeling like I have to enter mythic to get any sense of challenge when I'm not a mythic raider.

You pinpointed it. Once a mythic raider, I settled down for flex and small friendly groups. But we always outgeared HM raid simply by doing a few M+ per week. It was either step up to mythic, or establish a crazy rule of no TF gear during raid nights.
I went back to mythic but most of my friends just quit because "Heroic raid is too easy, mythic is to much work".

I don't blame it on TF but something must be made to save casual raiding at a highter level than LFR.

@HuxNeva. I think you underestimate the capacity of TF in M+ You get 5 pieces of 940 stuff for 5 people per run. It's easy to outgear HM raid. My holypriest plays with more pieces from m+ than raid since T21 is crap. Then again, maybe the problem is M+ loot and not TF

[Deleted]

You are right if you are talking about EN. Then they learned that lesson. NH and ToS had difficulty ramp- ups, and most guilds didn't plow through them face-roll. In fact, I suspect Anthorus was deliberately relaxed to avoid burnout after the long stretch ToS.

But again, it has little at the core to do with TF. While TF introduces some variance, at raid scale it is rather predictable and tuning with or without it is comparable. Look at your guildies. After a few weeks of HC on farm, how many pieces of non-raid gear are they still wearing? So by the time the next tier hits, only those guilds that killed the instance once and then retired will be disadvantaged, for the rest they will all be more or less at the same level entering the next tier.

If HC has become too easy for you, that is because Blizzard chooses to tune it that way. It is not because of TF.

I'm talking about all of the raids throughout this entire expansion. WoD's and MoP's heroic equivalents were way more difficult than Legion has been and it's not that I randomly improved, it's that we out-gear the content before it's even released.

When ToS released with heroic dropping 915 gear, I already had around 915 equipped from Nighthold heroic meaning I already out-geared it. Something similar happened in WoD when they released Blackrock Foundry, the item level was too close to Highmaul and it didn't feel like enough of an upgrade, so Blizzard increased the item level which dropped in there to make it feel more rewarding, they did not do this at all in Legion.

Furthermore, what's the point in having four difficulties if only one of them is meant to be challenging? Mythic with its 20 person and same server requirement makes it impossible for us to raid, not to mention the fact that people tend to enter a really nasty "hardcore" mindset whenever they talk about mythic, one I try to avoid as much as possible.

[Deleted]

TF is the worst mechanic ever added to WoW. That's a fact.

[Spiffums]

I keep buying trinket tokens on my mage and praying for that 980+ Arcano Crystal ......Eventually its gonna happen.

[HuxNeva]

I'm talking about all of the raids throughout this entire expansion. WoD's and MoP's heroic equivalents were way more difficult than Legion has been and it's not that I randomly improved, it's that we out-gear the content before it's even released.

When ToS released with heroic dropping 915 gear, I already had around 915 equipped from Nighthold heroic meaning I already out-geared it. Something similar happened in WoD when they released Blackrock Foundry, the item level was too close to Highmaul and it didn't feel like enough of an upgrade, so Blizzard increased the item level which dropped in there to make it feel more rewarding, they did not do this at all in Legion.

Furthermore, what's the point in having four difficulties if only one of them is meant to be challenging? Mythic with its 20 person and same server requirement makes it impossible for us to raid, not to mention the fact that people tend to enter a really nasty "hardcore" mindset whenever they talk about mythic, one I try to avoid as much as possible.

The average guild ilvl at the start of a new raid is highly predictable. This is the same with or without TF.
Blizzard chooses the reward ilvl and the tuning of the raids, taking into account what players will have.
I am not saying your feelings if it nt being difficult or rewarding are wrong. Just saying that TF is not the core of the issue.

[Osmeric]

The average guild ilvl at the start of a new raid is highly predictable. This is the same with or without TF.
Blizzard chooses the reward ilvl and the tuning of the raids, taking into account what players will have.
I am not saying your feelings if it nt being difficult or rewarding are wrong. Just saying that TF is not the core of the issue.

The best argument against TF is that, with the kind of tuning you are talking about, TF is equivalent to a reduction in the drop rate of gear from raids. Non-forged gear is effectively shard-bait, or at best something you feed to carries. The "real" drops are the -forged items.

[Kralljin]

I honestly couldn't care less about some LFR raider getting a Max Ilvl piece, it's one piece let them have their fun.

However, it has an impact on how raids are designed and devalues mythic raiding from my perspective.

It simply feels very strange if you kill a mythic boss for the first time and a lot of people already pass on loot because they already have a mythic equivalent piece due Titanforging from heroic.
The very same happens if you get a max Ilvl piece from normal / heroic, then kill the boss on mythic and the base mythic version drops - it just creates this awkward feeling of putting a massive amount of work into something and then realizing the reward is inferior to your current stuff.

It is rather dumb that the hardest boss in the game drops loot that is still 15 Ilvl off the max possible, if you have 300+ Pulls on Argus and then just throw away half of the loot (happened to us) on your first kill, you feel cheated - bad loot can happen on a first kill since the beginning of WoW but Titanforging made it worse.

"Already got that out of heroic, no need" - A sentence that creates a sour feeling after a first kill.

Secondly, due Titanforging, Blizzard can hardly put any Dps checks into the game anymore, they've gotten rather rare since Legion, these dps checks however used to be rather important because people would get gear each week that helps to beat a Dps check - the titanforging undermined this system because the Ilvl of people takes a massive leap once a new raid is released and then comes to a grinding halt once they solely rely on titanforging for upgrades, the "steady curve" is gone.

[Deleted]

TF is the worst mechanic ever added to WoW. That's my opinion

Fixed your typo

[Deleted]

The best argument against TF is that, with the kind of tuning you are talking about, TF is equivalent to a reduction in the drop rate of gear from raids. Non-forged gear is effectively shard-bait, or at best something you feed to carries. The "real" drops are the -forged items.

Exactly, and this happens from day one of a new raid releasing. Unless it's titanforged it ends up disenchanted, where's the fun and excitement in that? Not only does the boss need to drop that item you want, it also must be titanforged in order for it to be an upgrade. It feels completely and utterly pointless when you kill a boss for the first time and the loot isn't even useful to your raid.

[Queen of Hamsters]

You're 100% correct, but the "muh superiority!!"-crowd will keep screeching all the same.

While I'm not a fan of titanforging as such, my discontent is rooted in the fact that I see players putting in the same amount of time and effort as myself get lucky and have 20+ ilvl over myself as I'm unlucky with every piece of loot. I'm glad that they're part of my team of course, but it feels bad knowing I'm carrying less weight.

I couldn't care less if LFR-Lenny has one or 2 Mythic level pieces, he's still a LFR-player and probably for a reason.

[ProfessorTjc]

TF is just a casuals way of getting raiding gear from higher difficulties they don't deserve, FACT!

I only raid Heroic and even I don't think I deserve Mythic raiding quality gear.

[Osmeric]

TF is just a casuals way of getting raiding gear from higher difficulties they don't deserve, FACT!

I only raid Heroic and even I don't think I deserve Mythic raiding quality gear.

If the game were a moral engine whose purpose was to reward the deserving, you'd have a point.