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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by X Amadeus X View Post
    Well that is your claim, mine isn't as I said spending money to help people fed, clothed, and with shelter I am all for, and as I said as far as spending proportion wise it isn't any greater now that it has been.

    It just has has the bigger impact of being a scapegoat because none of the other foolish things we hedged our bets on turned a profit, like wars, and cutting taxes, and taking money out of programs that help bring poverty and cost down.
    I don't even understand what you are arguing against.

    We are in favor of all the same things here.

    I am saying "It is factual that SSI/Medicare/Medicaid are huge balance sheet items that are big contributors to the supposed spending problem, if you believe we have a spending problem, which I do not. I believe we instead have a revenue problem, and taxes should be raised to pay for these essential services. We also have a 'Buying things we can't afford' problem, and should raise taxes to pay for new stuff if we want new stuff."

    You are saying "No, its not a spending problem, its a Republicans cutting taxes and going on pointless wars problem."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Woods View Post
    LOL never change guys. I guess you won't because conservatism.

  2. #382
    The Undying X Amadeus X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    I don't even understand what you are arguing against.

    We are in favor of all the same things here.
    I am in favor of safety nets as a means to an end yes, I view them as a symptom of an overall issue, not the cause of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    I am saying "It is factual that SSI/Medicare/Medicaid are huge balance sheet items that are big contributors to the supposed spending problem, if you believe we have a spending problem, which I do not.
    Ok well then I agree here. Unemployment for example and Food Stamps are a result of not enough jobs being offered that can cover a person individual needs. When Unemployment goes down, and there is an abundance of jobs, the need for unemployment and food stamps is going to go down.

    They haven't because unemployment has gone down, but the pay has also.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    I believe we instead have a revenue problem, and taxes should be raised to pay for these essential services. We also have a 'Buying things we can't afford' problem, and should raise taxes to pay for new stuff if we want new stuff."
    Right, well I believe we should have simply left taxes alone period, there was no need to change them at all, and if there was anything to cut, it should have been on government waste.

    Golf Trips should have been on the top of the list. But with Cutting taxes it was sold as a jobs builder, if you have jobs, then you shouldn't need to cut food stamps or medicare, those issues should take care of themselves.

    Unless some really believe that $750 a month is really the dream life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    You are saying "No, its not a spending problem, its a Republicans cutting taxes and going on pointless wars problem."
    I am pointing to the problem and how we got where we are in the first place. Cost have gone up, there for sure are measures in place to bring spending down, the problem is everywhere else.

    And instead of oversight over nickels and dimes, we should really be looking in much larger causes for the amount spent on food stamps, medicare and social security.


    Because all of the above I mentioned can be whittled down without cuts, except for perhaps retirement.
    "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even a break rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by X Amadeus X View Post
    Right, well I believe we should have simply left taxes alone period, there was no need to change them at all, and if there was anything to cut, it should have been on government waste.
    I'm saying that's irrelevant. I understand that unnecessary tax cuts we can't afford are a huge part of the problem, as was raiding social security, and lengthy foreign wars.

    I am talking about moving forward, and how to fix this.

    You fix it by raising taxes.

    That is unless you know a way to go back in time and un-cut the taxes under Reagan and W Bush. That would be preferable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Woods View Post
    LOL never change guys. I guess you won't because conservatism.

  4. #384
    The Undying X Amadeus X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    I'm saying that's irrelevant. I understand that unnecessary tax cuts we can't afford are a huge part of the problem, as was raiding social security, and lengthy foreign wars.

    I am talking about moving forward, and how to fix this.

    You fix it by raising taxes.

    That is unless you know a way to go back in time and un-cut the taxes under Reagan and W Bush. That would be preferable.
    Well if the idiot Trump suggest that the tax cuts that already happen will lead to an economic boom in jobs, then the problem should correct itself no need for cuts.

    As for your overall approach yes, I do agree, we need to raise taxes to where they were. I am just in disagreement as to how much SS, Food Stamps and Medicare cost.

    Because as I said they are a symptom of a much bigger problem, not the cause.
    "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even a break rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by X Amadeus X View Post
    Well if the idiot Trump suggest that the tax cuts that already happen will lead to an economic boom in jobs, then the problem should correct itself no need for cuts.

    As for your overall approach yes, I do agree, we need to raise taxes to where they were. I am just in disagreement as to how much SS, Food Stamps and Medicare cost.

    Because as I said they are a symptom of a much bigger problem, not the cause.
    I'm saying the costs of the social safety net are well-documented, verifiable facts. They are crazy high.

    I will use an analogy here.

    Say you have a job working for a financial firm in Manhattan. You need to figure out how to pay for Manhattan rent, or how to pay for (and deal with) the costs of living outside the city and commuting every day.

    No amount of denying the costs of rent in Manhattan is going to change the fact that rent in Manhattan is crazy high.

    Extrapolate to the social safety net.

    We need to figure out how to pay for all these people's benefits, or we need to figure out how to make them not need benefits.

    No amount of denying the costs of the benefits is going to actually make them cost less.

    Any discussion on the topic should be aimed at a path forward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Woods View Post
    LOL never change guys. I guess you won't because conservatism.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    As a life long Democrat and huge supporter of those programs, you are wrong. If there is a spending problem, Social Security, Medicare, and (especially) Medicaid are a huge part of it.

    I disagree that we even have a spending problem.

    We have a REVENUE PROBLEM and a LIVING BEYOND OUR MEANS problem.

    While the solution when these problems arise in the household is austerity (because you can't just conjure up more income for yourself), the government literally can.

    Here's my solution: take all military spending and move it back into the general fund. Levy a new tax, visible on paycheck next to SSI and Medicare, for all military spending. Set this new tax high enough to fund the current (and recently passed) defense budget. Use the recouped military funds to expand the social safety net and pay down the national debt, at a 50/50 split.

    And one other thing - no more tax cuts when we are already running deficits. You can do a tax cut when we have a budget surplus.
    Please the second these War hawks actually saw the per paycheck tax a military tax would be they would shit themselves.
    Would be cold ice water in their face on how huge it really is.

    and this includes not only the 700 billion dollar budget but the CIA, NSA, Homeland defense, Wars, Black budget items, Off budget items, ancillary services provided outside the military budget. You are looking at at least 1.2-1.5 trillion a year.

    So take a look at your Medicare and SS payment and multiply that like by 7-10

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Please the second these War hawks actually saw the per paycheck tax a military tax would be they would shit themselves.
    Would be cold ice water in their face on how huge it really is.

    and this includes not only the 700 billion dollar budget but the CIA, NSA, Homeland defense, Wars, Black budget items, Off budget items, ancillary services provided outside the military budget. You are looking at at least 1.2-1.5 trillion a year.

    So take a look at your Medicare and SS payment and multiply that like by 7-10
    Kinda the point.

    Let the pro-war people who keep electing pro-war congressmen see the actual cost, to them, in dollars, and maybe they will change their stance on supporting it.

    I would call it the "Freedom Tax" just for the lulz.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Woods View Post
    LOL never change guys. I guess you won't because conservatism.

  8. #388
    The Undying X Amadeus X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antiganon View Post
    I'm saying the costs of the social safety net are well-documented, verifiable facts. They are crazy high.

    I will use an analogy here.

    Say you have a job working for a financial firm in Manhattan. You need to figure out how to pay for Manhattan rent, or how to pay for (and deal with) the costs of living outside the city and commuting every day.

    No amount of denying the costs of rent in Manhattan is going to change the fact that rent in Manhattan is crazy high.

    Extrapolate to the social safety net.

    We need to figure out how to pay for all these people's benefits, or we need to figure out how to make them not need benefits.

    No amount of denying the costs of the benefits is going to actually make them cost less.

    Any discussion on the topic should be aimed at a path forward.
    Hey we come at this from different perspectives, but I do Like what you said here and I agree.

    But part of my aggravation is that Social Safety Nets have been the whipping boy on the right since I was a kid grew up on welfare, and now pay into taxes and then some.

    It's always the easiest target because the poor and those already vulnerable can't really defend themselves, not with the millions and millions of dollars and organization that other groups do.
    "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even a break rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

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