What do you think 'Shul-Naguruth' is?

[A Chozo]

Looks like this stuff from the BfA Freatures Trailer, posing near the vault of Nazmir:

[KrakHed]

Given that the target of the spell was the Keepers, that would still be a retcon. Why would the spell continue after it has failed?

That's what we call momentum.

[KrakHed]

That's not how spell casting works. If a spell fails, it fizzles - It doesn't 'keep going' like a broken rocket.

If the target cannot contain the spell, the spell fizzles. If you try to resurrect a target that isn't dead, the spell fizzles, it doesn't 'keep going' and ressurect some other dead person it connects with.

If the target was the keepers, the spirit hit the keepers, the keepers could not contain the spirit, and the spell would fizzle.

If the spell was to launch the spirits of the Titans to the keepers, and they couldn't be contained there, where would they go? Souls persist in WoW. Momentum would carry them on the same trajectory after they failed to stop at the intended destination.

And spell fizzling isn't really a lore thing, that I recall. Lore allows for much more dramatic fuckups.

[KrakHed]

which then had to throw their spirits through space. As soon as the merging failed, the spell would end, and there would be no momentum to keep them going.

Nonsense. If you throw something through space, it keeps going until something stops it. That's momentum. The energy doesn't just suddenly disappear until it's been discharged. That's thermodynamics.

[Ragnarocket]

Ignoring the Titan spiritual mysteries...

It's fascinating to think we have more Old God mysteries still. I'm hopeful they go with this idea of an artificial Old God. It would allow there to be a fifth one without contradicting the narative they have created with Chronicle. Which considering that's supposed to be the end all be all of lore it would be nice if there weren't contradictions. Not to mention it creates a whole new theme to explore. If mortals can artificially create something like an Old God what else are we capable of? Could we somehow create a Naaru? What limits us?

[KrakHed]

They literally already had lore using the remnants of the Titan's souls that were still present on Azeroth before Chronicle was even released. We know, with certainty, that what you are saying is incorrect.

Those were remnants of Aman'thul. Also, Titans have a lot of essence. Some of the rest may have gotten a bit scattered. And spells can go wrong in the lore. Is there a canon example of spell fizzling anywhere?

[KrakHed]

We do indeed have a spell fizzling in lore. Bridenbrad. Alexstraza's flame could not purge the scourge taint from his body, and the spell ended. A nature spell was cast upon him to purge the scourge taint from his body, and the spell ended. These spells didn't just continue trying, they ended once they failed.

That's a spell failing, not fizzling. Trying to heal something you can't heal. The entire energy of the spell would be expended in the failed effort, as there wasn't even enough power to accomplish the goal in the first place. However, if you missed your intended target with a fireball, it could still hit something and start a fire. The spell has more potential energy than it requires to merely hit its intended target.

In the case of the Titans and the Keepers, the problem was that there was too much power.

[Levaustian]

The current studies on magic involving souls do show that souls, if unable to fit in the target body, will be in a limbo state eternally until an outside agent intervenes.

Full article:
["Our understanding of Soul Magic" - Professor Soulie McSoulferd]

[ro9ue]

Are people actually arguing about how a spell works? Sheeeet.

[Qualia]

Some time between then and Antorus, Sargeras captured the spirits of all the Titans except Eonar, despite that all of their spirits were supposed to be on Azeroth with the Keepers. (That is what Chronicle states the spell was supposed to do, send the spirits hurtling towards Azeroth to merge with the Keepers.)

So either that spell didn't happen, or their spirits didn't get sent hurtling towards Azeroth, seeing as Sargeras then captures them and tortures them despite never having a major force succeed in invading Azeroth until the Broken Shore, nevermind the Keeper's sanctums. Thus, retconned.

Blizzard (Muffinus specifically) already explained this. There wasn't any retcon. Sargeras and the Legion got the spirits from the Keepers (and possibly Wrathion as well) during their Ulduar invasions (Warrior campaign, I don't remember if it was exclusively to Warrior Campaign or available to every classes) and all those invasions over the world in Legion (I assume by that he meant they were hunting down Wrathion during those, and finally somehow managed to extract Aman'thul's spirit from him one way or another).

Q: My only point is: last remnants were inside the Keepers. Now, the souls are on Argus. That is a contradiction. They need to explain how.
Muffinus (M): You know how there were demons in Ulduar during Legion pre-launch week 2?

Q: Yup it's a theory that the Legion targeted Ulduar for this! What about Aman'thul's soul fragment? It was inside Lei Shen & now Wrathion.
M: Did you do invasions?

Given that the target of the spell was the Keepers, that would still be a retcon. Why would the spell continue after it has failed?

It also says the spirits 'faded' after the spell had failed, which would suggest their spirits were gone, not that they simply kept going. Not only were their spirits not gone, but they were completely healthy and well enough to reform later.

No, it never said the spirits faded. I (and probably many others) already elaborated upon this when Chronicle was just released and people were going all "So the Titans are dead?". What was said in Chronicle was "But just as quickly as the influx of power had come, it dimmed. The Keepers, still retaining their original personalities, puzzled over the strange phenomenon. They knew they had been gifted with a portion of the Pantheon's power, but they were unaware that the last remnants of their beloved makers had been infused in their very bodies". It never said that the influx of power / the spirit of the Pantheon faded, it only dimmed. Those "last remnants" were infused in the Keepers' very bodies. Given that Wrathion, upon ingesting Lei Shen's heart (which contained Amanthul's piece), got a brief moment of being possessed by Aman'thul, it's very fair to assume that their spirits never disappeared, just went into some sorts of dormant state.

[Sykol]

It's Shu-zen's true form. Calling it now.

[Zoldor]

My assumption/head cannon on the souls thing for Antorus was that they failed to hold it and the souls returned to the keepers allowing ole Sarg to snap them up. Then again that is just a thought. Doesn't explain the Aman'thul part (maybe that is why it failed Sarg stopped it during the channel or whatever and the keepers only got Bits).

As for Chronicle and the old gods, I always assumed Chronicle was going to be bible, but I thought of it as loose and told mostly from the Titan Perspective. There could have been lesser or smaller old gods as well that just went unmentioned ie G'huun etc. An old god that wasn't part of the Black Empire or was a general or something. Maybe he landed in the water and was there instead of on the Pangaea Azeroth. Either way with Metzen gone the first Chronicle book is probably going to loose a lot of its bible like quality. It was kind of Metzen's baby.

Edit:

Well i saw the muffins post, I guess that is what they are going with. They stole them a few months/weeks before Antorus. Curious how they got the one from Wrathion.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

@Qualia

What was the wording when it came to the Old Gods coming to Azeroth?

[Qualia]

@Qualia

What was the wording when it came to the Old Gods coming to Azeroth?

It actually never specified how many Old Gods came to Azeroth, it just said "The elemental lords reveled amid the primordial bedlam until a group of Old Gods plummered down from the Great Dark. They slammed into Azeroth's surface, embedding themselves in different locations across the world <...>". Chronicle never told us that there were only 4 Old Gods on Azeroth per se, just that it named four of them. Other than Y'Shaarj, we didn't even get the name of the other Old Gods (Y'Shaarj, C'Thun and N'Zoth) until the Titans and their Titanforged army came. So, all in all, even if G'Huun was one of the Old Gods that came to Azeroth at the beginning, it technically still wouldn't be a retcon as Chronicle never stated anywhere that there were only four Old Gods.

[Ragnarocket]

Blizzard (Muffinus specifically) already explained this. There wasn't any retcon. Sargeras and the Legion got the spirits from the Keepers (and possibly Wrathion as well) during their Ulduar invasions (Warrior campaign, I don't remember if it was exclusively to Warrior Campaign or available to every classes) and all those invasions over the world in Legion (I assume by that he meant they were hunting down Wrathion during those, and finally somehow managed to extract Aman'thul's spirit from him one way or another).

Q: My only point is: last remnants were inside the Keepers. Now, the souls are on Argus. That is a contradiction. They need to explain how.
Muffinus (M): You know how there were demons in Ulduar during Legion pre-launch week 2?

Q: Yup it's a theory that the Legion targeted Ulduar for this! What about Aman'thul's soul fragment? It was inside Lei Shen & now Wrathion.
M: Did you do invasions?

No, it never said the spirits faded. I (and probably many others) already elaborated upon this when Chronicle was just released and people were going all "So the Titans are dead?". What was said in Chronicle was "But just as quickly as the influx of power had come, it dimmed. The Keepers, still retaining their original personalities, puzzled over the strange phenomenon. They knew they had been gifted with a portion of the Pantheon's power, but they were unaware that the last remnants of their beloved makers had been infused in their very bodies". It never said that the influx of power / the spirit of the Pantheon faded, it only dimmed. Those "last remnants" were infused in the Keepers' very bodies. Given that Wrathion, upon ingesting Lei Shen's heart (which contained Amanthul's piece), got a brief moment of being possessed by Aman'thul, it's very fair to assume that their spirits never disappeared, just went into some sorts of dormant state.

Oh dang...I didn't know that. Well that explains why Sargeras is torturing the Titans now. I kind of assumed they'd been tortured for aeons and just NOW of all times they were finally getting close to being corrupted or whatever. That makes that timeframe a bit easier to understand.

[olddog]

http://beta.wowdb.com/npcs/134635-dark-young

I recently found this NPC called a "Dark Young". This "Dark Young" is remind me of Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath.

It looks like G'Huun's N'raqi. perhaps, Shul-Nagruth(Shub-Niggurath) is a Progenitor of G'Huun and Source of that Dark Young, or G'Huun is a result of experiments on carcass of Shul-Nagruth.

[Golden Yak]

http://beta.wowdb.com/npcs/134635-dark-young

I recently found this NPC called a "Dark Young". This "Dark Young" is remind me of Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath.

It looks like G'Huun's N'raqi. perhaps, Shul-Nagruth(Shub-Niggurath) is a Progenitor of G'Huun and Source of that Dark Young, or G'Huun is a result of experiments on carcass of Shul-Nagruth.

I couldn't possibly love all this more.

[OIS]

So, all in all, even if G'Huun was one of the Old Gods that came to Azeroth at the beginning, it technically still wouldn't be a retcon as Chronicle never stated anywhere that there were only four Old Gods.

The Chronicle only mentions the original four being defeated and imprisoned(in Y'shaarj's case, destroyed). Is there even an off-hand remark about the Titanforged fighting other, unnamed Old Gods? By that logic we can assume anything. Chronicle was meant to offer a thorough explanation to the history of Warcraft. It's not a novel, there's no meaning in withholding information such as this. Can there be any plot twists in a history book?

[KrakHed]

I couldn't possibly love all this more.

The Shub-Niggurath connection lends me all the more hope for G'huun having a feminine voice. It'd be nice.

[Lochton]

Sounds like the servant of an old god.