M+ as a Hunter - Pugging... impossible?

[Marrilaife]

Did a +5 on my hunter who's now 921 and my god did i feel like i was a massive burden - yes! Obviously need to gear up more but by the time i got to my 6th stack of fury the bosses were dead LOL, did full lfr, both world bosses, spent 2hrs farming rares, got 0 items. But ill continue to do it..

Is there a massive diff between sv mm and bm when ur not a mythic raider? I was gearing sv and bm as theyre relaxing/fun styles and similar stat choices.. (sorta)

The difference is sv is melee... Btw I saw logs of a surv hunter in my server's first guild so it's not they're "unusable" in mythic. It's just there are so many other easier to play melee classes in the game. And most guilds have ranged shortage so they want ranged hunters.

The problem you noticed is low gear -> you're forced to do low content because no one takes you to high content -> in low content everything dies too quick because other people have more gear than you and kill it faster -> you can't do any dps and "get carried". You can only compare dps if you have similar gear to other dps and do appropriately challenging content so stuff doesn't die too quickly. I'm pretty sure +5 with people 920 ilvl and more will suffer from this issue, stuff dies too fast so classes with ramp up with show as "bad" on dps.

Anyway last time I've seen surv hunter in a dungeon he did really good damage by using butchery on aoe packs, kinda reminds me of feral druid and brutal slash, seems like very similar playstyles.

But yeah to compare anything you'd need to make a group of full 920ilvl ppl and then find a level of key where you don't kill stuff too fast yet it doesn't go too slow either. I'm pretty sure +15 would go really slow with a group of all 920s unless they're super good players, but +5 is too easy.

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its impossible for me to get into raids or 5 mans as hunter. they always want locks mages, monks but never us. Its horrible balancing by blizzard.

Funny cuz my guild had our last hunter quit during xmas and since then we can't replace him because there are just no competent hunters around. If there are any decent hunters looking for a guild, they always aim for a higher one. Last hunter we had on trial was absolutely disappointing, so even though we wanted one, he just wouldn't cut it. We have mages and locks and boomkins and ele shamans but hunters, just can't find any unless we lower the bar to the floor and that's not fair to other raiders. Glad tier sets are going away in BFA because seeing another warrior/hunter/shaman/monk token drop no one needs while the other 2 would be extremely welcome is just mockery. Out of 25 people we had 5 on that crappy token.

[andreasels]

I would love to raid however being a vet irl and being on call 24/7 kinda fks that one up, atleast with m+ I can smash one out in 30-45mins as opposed to raids ?(even with the guild) that take 2-3hours but I get the idea... norm/hc raids and Argus farming!

If you are in a guild, which lets you participate in their farm normal/hc raid, I don't think that they will mind, if you have to leave the raid cause of your job. If we run hc, there are people joining and leaving during the raid all the time, no big deal. No need to stay the full raid, if it isn't progress. Especially if you are dps, you can get replaced easily (if necessary at all)

[Pooti]

Rrrrright...
First you claim to be a casual player, then you mention you tanked +15 at ilvl 872 and even +20 as ilvl 904...
Nobody, not even the most desperate group would invite ilvl 872 tank for +15, and even if you made the group yourself, people would leave if they inspected you. Something doesn't add up.

Unless it was done way back when EN was current content.

[Yhcti]

the +20 was done on my blood dk and the +15 was done on my veng dh, I don't get what the big deal is :/ I wasn't bragging, I just noted what I'd done so far... I got carried hard in both as the DPS and Healer were all pretty much the best raiders in my guild at the time and I spent a lot of time kiting and dying!

Staying Survival, I've seen a few logs and vids of SV Hunters doing extremely well, I just wasn't playing optimally at all... obviously my gear is a massive issue (924 at the moment now).

Appreciate all the comments - my gametime now involves farming LFR/Norm/trying to get into guild HC runs and farming Argus! (which is actually extremely satisfying as Survival, yay Harpoon!)

[Khallid]

the +20 was done on my blood dk and the +15 was done on my veng dh, I don't get what the big deal is :/ I wasn't bragging, I just noted what I'd done so far... I got carried hard in both as the DPS and Healer were all pretty much the best raiders in my guild at the time and I spent a lot of time kiting and dying!

You don't seem to be aware that Mythic+ dungeons have had their difficulty increased on every tier. The same key level is much much harder than it was on previous patches. A current +20 would be completely impossible to do with 900 ilvl gear. So your comment on what keys you did made no sense with the current difficulty. As some other people noticed, that was good enough gear back during Nighthold.

[Jurassic]

Yeah I find as an MM hunter I have literally 0 problems getting into high groups. Your issue will be either M+ score or gear. Either way, the best answer is join guilds, make friends, make your own groups.

Or if you're BM the best answer is probably to start playing MM - BM sucks in M+.

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Make your own group and 'give guys a chance' who have low ilv and shit M+ scores. Let me know how smooth the runs go then you'll understand why people don't do it.

Nah BM is fine in M+ as well, going over 3k on raider IO isn't that hard to achieve.

[Azortharion]

BM is one of the worst DPS specs in Mythic+, actually. You can still reach X amount of raider.io points with it, sure, but it doesn't change that fact.

[Yhcti]

I have noticed when testing all 3 specs on a dummy and in some mythics that SV is, for my gear, behind MM and miles behind BM. With how I am right now, BM is my strongest spec by a LOT...

[Ilir]

It's quite easy. Get your key, level it up. If it goes above +15, downscale it and then just make your own group.

That's how I did with my demonology one year or less ago (Nh was out for like 1-2months), when I got the +15 achive at like 840 ilvl. You're getting hard carried but at least you get your weekly cache.

Once you're at around 930-940 (pretty easy to get to this point tbh, even with low level mm+) you can find +15 groups pretty easily without being hard carried.

+15 is basically free nowadays.

[Marrilaife]

I have noticed when testing all 3 specs on a dummy and in some mythics that SV is, for my gear, behind MM and miles behind BM. With how I am right now, BM is my strongest spec by a LOT...

BM is a good pick for an alt because it doesn't rely on 1-2 specific legendaries, many of the available ones are at least decent, it has little movement restriction (you can do everything on the move, only issue is pet travel time but even that was buffed somewhere in 7.2 when they increased the range kill command allows pet to jump), the rotation is much more forgiving than for example survival, so yes, for a person who wants to gear up it's a good spec. Even if it's "the worst spec" to push a +28 key, that's completely different playing field than a person who just wants +15 for the weekly. The only thing that bothers me with pug bm hunters is when they don't want to bring utility pets (like combat rez or time warp). Having to use drums because the hunter is too attached to his fluffy the spirit beast is a waste (as drums are weaker).

And because bm is easy to play there's less chance the player will fuck up royally when it comes to pugs. So on low / medium keys it's safer to invite a bm hunter than some class that is more complicated. I feel similar about paladins and demon hunters, you'd rarely see one that is completely tragic. While for example take a fotm spec affliction warlock - it's amazing when played well and super good for high keys, but I've seen so many of them go with their patchwerk talents into a fortified m+ and be completely useless. Frost mages are also a great raiding spec, but for dungeons they're extremely legendary dependent to do any respectable aoe and many people won't have all legendaries on alts or won't know their "top sim" single target ones won't do.

Not even mentioning that when it's skittish week I tend to invite hunters and rogues and I'm very sad if I don't see any misdirects / tricks on the tank.

Apparently for BFA hunters will be losing combat rez, but will be gaining dispel from enemies instead. Currently they bring good amount of utility into m+ the only other ranged class that is better in that aspect is ele shaman (short cd interrupt, purge, stun totem, bloodlust). In very high keys there is a different meta and only very narrow amount of specs are used, but unless you aspire for the next MDI there's no need to concern yourself about that, as playstyle in +15 is completely different than in +25.

I don't think survival hunters are bad either, but in m+ there are some specific bosses and trash that have melee unfriendly mechanics and of course on those you'll be punished more as survival than other hunter specs. I don't think there is a specific affix that is super bad for melee (except maybe sanguine + grievious combo), but a lot of mobs themselves will be more annoying to deal with as a melee.

[Deleted]

So much misinformation. It’s quite frankly disgusting.

[Angrox]

Hunter is a T1 m+ dps, Bm is included. You just gotta know how to play.
On big pulls, make sure u have sephuz and preferably you can proc it the same time your beast cleave starts by trapping a random mob pre pull to activate the sec u pull.
Your dps will sky rocket from this.
Bm ST specially on target swap bosses will be better than MM on most cases (atleast in my case cos i regularly play with 250 ping), the only reason bm isn't quite as good is because it can't disengage and get the survival of the fittest debuff. (useful for bosses like hatecoil in EoA, General xakxal in Arcway).
I always play BM for pushing dungeons like Seat, and Upper.

If you're not getting into pugs, it's not a class related issue it's a player related issue.

[Dracodraco]

While for example take a fotm spec affliction warlock - it's amazing when played well and super good for high keys, but I've seen so many of them go with their patchwerk talents into a fortified m+ and be completely useless

TO BE FAIR, the "patchwerk" warlock spec isn't terrible for fortified, as long as you've got sow the seeds over the 2 minute cd (name escapes me atm); Having actual singletarget priority damage through malefic grasp + contagion is super nice whenever there's a threatening mob in a pack, and it's always good for bosses. Lock AOE is still top tier just by switching into sow the seeds, so it's worth considering if you really need to go even further, or if a balance is better. Same goes for their pets; Infernals theoretically better for AOE, but doomguard has interrupt, probably better off with the doomguard.

[ydraw]

Hunter is a T1 m+ dps, Bm is included. You just gotta know how to play.

No amount of knowing how to play can make up for mechanical differences in DPS. I play both specs, MM sims 40% higher. That's just the reality of the game at the moment.

BM can't logically be tier 1 if a different spec of the same class does 40% more AOE dps.

If you're not getting into pugs, it's not a class related issue it's a player related issue.

If he was getting kicked out of pugs it might be a player related issue. Not getting into pugs is most likely an ilvl or raider.io score issue.

[Angrox]

No amount of knowing how to play can make up for mechanical differences in DPS. I play both specs, MM sims 40% higher. That's just the reality of the game at the moment.

BM can't logically be tier 1 if a different spec of the same class does 40% more AOE dps.



If he was getting kicked out of pugs it might be a player related issue. Not getting into pugs is most likely an ilvl or raider.io score issue.

low raider.io score is an indication of player related issue whether no time to play, no effort or low skill/knowledge (busy, new or noob).

You don't have to be doing 30mil instead of 20mil on a 15 second pack, when including the four other players dps the minimal time you save makes this disparity in dps irrelevant overall.

E.g. consider testing yourself playing bm on upper and then mm (altho factors like diff comp, level, affix might effect) you'll find it'll be pretty similar.

[ydraw]

E.g. consider testing yourself playing bm on upper and then mm (altho factors like diff comp, level, affix might effect) you'll find it'll be pretty similar.

Yes I am sure the results will be very similar if you choose the one dungeon in the game with almost no AOE trash packs.

Why don't you consider the same test but on Lower? I'm sure you'll see the difference then.

low raider.io score is an indication of player related issue whether no time to play, no effort or low skill/knowledge (busy, new or noob).

Low raider.io score is most commonly an indication that a player is selective with what dungeons they run. I mean most people don't bother doing 4-5 of the dungeons in the game because they are a pain in the ass, but that doesn't mean they don't have good knowledge of the dungeons they have done.

My raider.io score is low because there are 4 dungeons I have never bothered running on a high key. But I have done +15 upper kara over a dozen times because it's the easiest dungeon on fortified week. This information won't show up on raider.io when I app to your upper Kara group though. Just the fact that I haven't done seat, COS or cathedral on +10 or higher and have a low score as a result.

Score is completely meaningless in that situation because the information you want to know is "how well do I know the actual dungeon you are doing".

The information you get from raider.io is about as meaningful as if I linked you my Hand Of Adal achievement when applying for an Antorus raid.

Of course the creators or raider.io could very easily improve the scoring system to show an average rather than a total of dungeons completed, but for the people who measure their self worth based on raider.io score this would be a terrible change, because they'd no longer be rated so much higher than everyone else.

[Dracodraco]

My raider.io score is low because there are 4 dungeons I have never bothered running on a high key. But I have done +15 upper kara over a dozen times because it's the easiest dungeon on fortified week. This information won't show up on raider.io when I app to your upper Kara group though. Just the fact that I haven't done seat, COS or cathedral on +10 or higher and have a low score as a result.

This hasn't been true for a while btw; The addon now shows the highest completed key for the dungeon you're signing up for. If you've only ever run upper kara, but have run a +20 and thus only have like, 200 score, it'll still show you having done +20 upper kara when you apply for it.

[ydraw]

This hasn't been true for a while btw; The addon now shows the highest completed key for the dungeon you're signing up for. If you've only ever run upper kara, but have run a +20 and thus only have like, 200 score, it'll still show you having done +20 upper kara when you apply for it.

Yes, but your actual raider.io score is still based on the total for all dungeons. And it will show you your best run of upper Kara, but it won't show you how many times you've done it.

E.G. If I've done +15 upper kara 20 times, you're gonna see the same thing if you look at the score of someone who's only done it once. But if you've done some dungeons I haven't you'll have a higher score despite my much larger pool of experience in the dungeon I am actually applying to do.

So like I said, there's plenty to work on for the devs of raider.io.

And this is not just a theoretical problem. A lot of people run the same dungeon over and over because it drops certain BIS items for them, or just because they like it. That doesn't make them bad players, and honestly whether or not they know every trash ability for COEN is totally irrelevant if you're building a group for Darkheart Thicket etc.

[Dracodraco]

Yes, but your actual raider.io score is still based on the total for all dungeons. And it will show you your best run of upper Kara, but it won't show you how many times you've done it.

E.G. If I've done +15 upper kara 20 times, you're gonna see the same thing if you look at the score of someone who's only done it once. But if you've done some dungeons I haven't you'll have a higher score despite my much larger pool of experience in the dungeon I am actually applying to do.

So like I said, there's plenty to work on for the devs of raider.io.

And this is not just a theoretical problem. A lot of people run the same dungeon over and over because it drops certain BIS items for them, or just because they like it. That doesn't make them bad players, and honestly whether or not they know every trash ability for COEN is totally irrelevant if you're building a group for Darkheart Thicket etc.

Sure, but one can surmise that if you're that good at running upper Kara, you'll also do higher than 15; After all, the higher the key, the better the chance of getting loot due to the scaling (and it takes longer to complete 2x level 15 kara's, LET ALONE finding the keys for it, than it does to do 1x level 20 Kara). At that stage, most people I know are likely to take the person who's done a higher level of a key than one with more score (and conversatively, if you've done 30x 15 UK's I'm also not going to be keen on taking you over the dude with like 3 18-20 UK's and a ton of other dungeons; Clearly the dude's able to do higher, I don't know if you are, and the dude's well versed in M+).
If all you have to show is a pitiful score and 15's done because you've been mass farming just 1-3 dungeons, it probably isn't just because you have a low score you're getting declined; It's because that looks exactly like something a boostee would have after a few weeks of buying weekly +15's. Boosters gravitate to the quick, easy dungeons, so they never build up any meaningful score, and their max run will almost always be a 15 (or a 16, if the boosters wants +15 keys for next week and haven't done higher this week).

Which again, is not ideal, but there's a very simple solution; Just do a few runs that are actually modestly difficult (+20 will suffice, unlikely to be boosted at that level) to show you aren't getting boosted.

I understand the frustration, but I honestly have no sympathy for the issue at hand; You want everything served on a silver platter in terms of being taken to groups, but you scoff at the checks and balances that we currently have access to. It's not ideal, but nothing is ever going to be, and it's a heck of a lot better than just going by class balance+item level, which is what we'd revert to instead. I have 6 chars all with over 970+ equipped. Only ONE of them has any mythic gear. We need something else to help us weed out the bads, and sadly, that means that if you don't put any effort into NOT looking like a bad, then you will get passed over. It's far preferable to having to deal with absolute idiots in every single pug you do.

[ydraw]

I understand the frustration, but I honestly have no sympathy for the issue at hand; You want everything served on a silver platter in terms of being taken to groups, but you scoff at the checks and balances that we currently have access to.

Nobody's asking for your sympathy. Certainly not me.

I am just suggesting that M+ score isn't necessarily indicative of player ability. You also have to really want to run a lot of M+ to get a high score.

Sure, but one can surmise that if you're that good at running upper Kara, you'll also do higher than 15

Well this relies on the assumption that the person *wants* to do more keys. I would probably do a lot more keys than I do if I had a regular group to run with, but I certainly don't have much desire to pug more keys than necessary because of the randomness involved in pugging.

Like most people I'm just trying to get my 15 done each week with the minimum of fuss. Which means choosing dungeons that suit the affixes and not going higher than necessary.

As I've tried unsuccessfully to explain to you before, you play far, far more often than most people do. So your expectations and assumptions are kind of unrealistic. As you said yourself, you have 6 characters with 970 ilvl, which means you're clearing Heroic Antorus 6 times per week.

There are lots of people who spend less than 10 hours a week actively playing the game, myself included. Those people don't really have time to do +15 runs of every dungeon just to impress people like you.

It says more about you than it says about other people that you just assume anyone with a low score is getting boosted in all their dungeons though.