M+ as a Hunter - Pugging... impossible?

[Deleted]

Nope. When I started my own group on a Hunter, it got filled up pretty fast and we cleared the thing in no time.

[Halyon]

I haven't had issues pugging m+'s on my hunter...and that's as BM... My DH on the other hand, now that's a PITA.

[Dracodraco]

Nobody's asking for your sympathy. Certainly not me.

I am just suggesting that M+ score isn't necessarily indicative of player ability. You also have to really want to run a lot of M+ to get a high score.

But it's the best indication we have. As I've probably asked before - what alternative would you use to measure? I assume that you want runs that are moderately pain and wipe free; If you have a better system, the raider.io devs are more than open to suggestions. Saying "this current system is unfair because it's not indicative of player ability in this specific scenario" is fine, but you gotta be able to explain how we are to evaluate them instead as well then.

Well this relies on the assumption that the person *wants* to do more keys. I would probably do a lot more keys than I do if I had a regular group to run with, but I certainly don't have much desire to pug more keys than necessary because of the randomness involved in pugging.

It says more about you than it says about other people that you just assume anyone with a low score is getting boosted in all their dungeons though.

First off - you already made the assumption that the person wanted to farm a specific dungeon. That is what I was answering to - the direct statement, and I quote:

A lot of people run the same dungeon over and over because it drops certain BIS items for them, or just because they like it.

I just used Upper kara as an example because you did. So that's not really *my* assumption.

It's also a *little* funny that you state that you have no desire to pug because of the randomness involved in pugging, when that's the exact reason for the addon and site to exist in the first place - to cut down on the randomness of getting terrible players messing your dungeons up. It just isn't super fun when you're stuck on the wrong side of the fence, which is fine, but it's a bit of a hypocritical stance to have - "I don't want to pug because it's random and shit might go great or horrible. Oh, but I also don't think M+ score is fair because pugs use it to cut down on randomness, which means I can't breeze into M+ because I fall below their criteria, even though *I SPECIFICALLY* clearly am a competent player and should be exempt".

As for your last statement, don't be a daft cunt my friend; I never said I thought everyone with a low score was getting boosted. I told you that everyone with a low score that has completed nothing but 15's or maybe a 16 *looks* like a person that's getting boosted, because that's the truth (alternatively: A competent group might not even want to take a guy that only runs +15's every week because he is likely to perform lower than someone that does +20's, EVEN IF the first player is entirely competent. People want a smooth ride. Not a "passing grade"). That will keep you from getting invited based on that stigma, and it's worth noting. Ultimately, it's "people like me" that you have to deal with if you want to get into the groups, so it's probably worth knowing how "people like me" think, rather than how your world would ideally look. I'm once again not saying the system is perfect, but it's very easy to *work* with the system instead of fighting it tooth and nail, because evaluating people on external merits is still a far better scenario than just going for item levels.

[Deleted]

As for your last statement, don't be a daft cunt my friend; I never said I thought everyone with a low score was getting boosted. I told you that everyone with a low score that has completed nothing but 15's or maybe a 16 *looks* like a person that's getting boosted, because that's the truth

That's a weird assumption though, considering that most likely a huge chunk of the playerbase won't do anything but 15's + 16's, because they don't care about their epeen as much. (doing a +15 will lead to a +14 key next weak, +2ing that will lead to a +16key,finishing that means next week's key is a +15 key.)

If that's what you get out of that addon after reading it's stats, it's indeed really worthless and misleading.

I agree with both sides though, it's another way to evaluate the player, but it's also another way to be dismissive/mislead because the player behind it doesn't know how to use that tool..or will only use that tool.

In the end, the problem will always be that people, who shouldn't be picky or even use that tool, use it - and then fuck up on how to use it.
There would really be no issue at all if that guy who does his +15 every week would stop looking for guys that clear +20s. In terms of speed, there is most likely not even much of a difference tbh. Most +15 affixes can be ignored nowadays..

[Swalload]

hi all,

I'm a casual, I don't play that often but am doing as much as I can.. I've got full argus gear except a chest which was a 930 boe I bought, I'm finding it impossible to get into M+ groups... even when I ask guildies, no-one wants to take me. I play Survival as my main but am happy enough to go MM/BM (whichever is the strongest for said dungeon). Seems it's extremely hard to get into an M+ these days, even if I create my own, it never fills because tanks don't choose to go with a low ilvl like myself.

How do you guys get around this? all I want is to get my weekly 15 done

You get your weekly 15 by going through the whole thing until you're high enough to do your 15. No one is entitled to doing a 15 every week if they're not ready for it just like no one is entitled to being a CEO of a company without being ready for it, gotta grind the grind.

[Dracodraco]

That's a weird assumption though, considering that most likely a huge chunk of the playerbase won't do anything but 15's + 16's, because they don't care about their epeen as much. (doing a +15 will lead to a +14 key next weak, +2ing that will lead to a +16key,finishing that means next week's key is a +15 key.)

If that's what you get out of that addon after reading it's stats, it's indeed really worthless and misleading.

But what else would you assume? There's no distinctive difference between a good player doing 1-3 dungeons each week for their weekly, and never going above 15, or a boostee. It's on the players to stand out, because the real kicker here is - finding competent people isn't hard. I'm not sitting there for even five minutes and pouring over people applying with shitty scores and just a few 15's done; I get *flooded* by people wanting to do a +18 court, all with decent credentials. Of course I'm going to assume that everyone that has done a 15 max isn't worth my time, because a portion of them fit that criteria, and I'm not lacking for a subject pool.

It'd be like me trying to recruit someone for a job - I can either take a few of the people that has 10 years of experience and good recommendations from their previous employer(s), or I can pick the dude straight out of university that swears he's a savant at this because he spent tons of time making sure he knew everything, just give him a shot. I know the failure rate in this position is fairly high amongst newly educated people because some of them just manage to coast by with a barely passing grade - Who do I pick. The dude who swears he's good at this if we give him a chance, or one of the guys with 10 years experience that we KNOW can do the job competently?

In the end, the problem will always be that people, who shouldn't be picky or even use that tool, use it - and then fuck up on how to use it.
There would really be no issue at all if that guy who does his +15 every week would stop looking for guys that clear +20s. In terms of speed, there is most likely not even much of a difference tbh. Most +15 affixes can be ignored nowadays..

I don't agree with you. I don't want to carry people to their weekly 15's by just accepting people that only do 15's. I charge a decent amount of gold to do that, I have no intentions of doing it for free just because a person was the quickest to sign up. The best way for anyone to make sure they get a competent group is by putting the requirements higher than needed, because it weeds out a ton of the potential bad apples, and it has no harmful effect on my ability to make a group.

Pure and simple, people that go "lol you shouldn't require a high score/item level/whatevercriteriamightfit to do you weekly +15" live in a dream world where they seem to believe that because THEY are semi-competent, everyone else is too, and "people should just suck it up and take it and do the run 2 minutes slower gosh darnit I want a group".
I've seen DPS pulling sub 1M in a +15, with all of the criteria to get into one and multiple clears. I am not interested in dealing with this.

[Trapstarz]

Pure and simple, people that go "lol you shouldn't require a high score/item level/whatevercriteriamightfit to do you weekly +15" live in a dream world where they seem to believe that because THEY are semi-competent, everyone else is too, and "people should just suck it up and take it and do the run 2 minutes slower gosh darnit I want a group"

Totaly agree

[ydraw]

Ultimately, it's "people like me" that you have to deal with if you want to get into the groups,

It's really not though. It's people like you I might have to deal with if I want to get into an 18, but I'm not applying to 18s.

The people you are dealing with when applying 15s are people with a 15 key looking for completion. Not people pushing keys. Most of them have worse scores than I do.

But it's the best indication we have. As I've probably asked before - what alternative would you use to measure?

I literally proposed a better measure in the thread that you are applying to - using the same app and everything.

[Nubulous]

That's a weird assumption though, considering that most likely a huge chunk of the playerbase won't do anything but 15's + 16's, because they don't care about their epeen as much. (doing a +15 will lead to a +14 key next weak, +2ing that will lead to a +16key,finishing that means next week's key is a +15 key.)

If that's what you get out of that addon after reading it's stats, it's indeed really worthless and misleading.

I agree with both sides though, it's another way to evaluate the player, but it's also another way to be dismissive/mislead because the player behind it doesn't know how to use that tool..or will only use that tool.

In the end, the problem will always be that people, who shouldn't be picky or even use that tool, use it - and then fuck up on how to use it.
There would really be no issue at all if that guy who does his +15 every week would stop looking for guys that clear +20s. In terms of speed, there is most likely not even much of a difference tbh. Most +15 affixes can be ignored nowadays..

Ya it is a very HORRIBLE assumption. I am 10/11 M, and only do a 15 each week because I dont give a crap about mythic plus apart from getting max cache every week. Not going to play blizzards RNG BS Titanforge game and grind mythic plus endlessly for a minor minor CHANCE at getting an upgrade. I usually dont have a problem doing pug groups though. I have found Eye of Azshara to be mostly the easiest to run, maybe Nelth on Tyran weeks since last boss on EYE even on 15 some dps are god awful on. I usually just do a EOA 15 every week and call it good. BM is pretty great in mythic plus at that level IMO because you can output pretty much the same dmg the entire run and you dont really have downtime. I havent bothered doing anything much higher than a 17 or 18 with people in my guild but they routinely do 20 or 21 or higher I just dont care to do it

[Kaver]

I am just suggesting that M+ score isn't necessarily indicative of player ability.

If you choose a player with a low M+ score, the risk of getting a bad player is larger. It's that simple. When pugging you're basing the outcome on chance. There's no time for getting to know the other players to find out if they are good or not. Of course, as you say, there will be exceptions, but in general a player with a 2500+ score will most likely be better than a player with a score of 1000.

TLDR; Bad players are wasting people's time and your most valid way to avoid them is by checking their past experience. No guaranties, but the risk of failure will be reduced. It's a numbers game.

[ydraw]

If you choose a player with a low M+ score, the risk of getting a bad player is larger. It's that simple. When pugging you're basing the outcome on chance. There's no time for getting to know the other players to find out if they are good or not. Of course, as you say, there will be exceptions, but in general a player with a 2500+ score will most likely be better than a player with a score of 1000.

TLDR; Bad players are wasting people's time and your most valid way to avoid them is by checking their past experience. No guaranties, but the risk of failure will be reduced. It's a numbers game.

Yes I agree a high score is more likely.

But people in this thread were literally saying that people with low scores are bad players. I explained why that isn't always the case. The score is based on totalling the score of all dungeons, even ones they've never bothered to do. So having never done a dungeon at all is worse than doing it really badly and failing.

An average is a much better indication than a total. Someone who's done 5 different dungeons with an average score of 200 will have a worse score than a person who's done 10 different dungeons with an average score of 120.

I mean sure this probably makes no difference if you're only picking people with scores over 3000 anyway, but it's not always like that. You're often choosing between a few different applicants with scores ranging from 500 to 2000. And in that situation, average is far more important.

[Kaver]

Yes I agree a high score is more likely.

But people in this thread were literally saying that people with low scores are bad players. I explained why that isn't always the case. The score is based on totalling the score of all dungeons, even ones they've never bothered to do. So having never done a dungeon at all is worse than doing it really badly and failing.

An average is a much better indication than a total. Someone who's done 5 different dungeons with an average score of 200 will have a worse score than a person who's done 10 different dungeons with an average score of 120.

I mean sure this probably makes no difference if you're only picking people with scores over 3000 anyway, but it's not always like that. You're often choosing between a few different applicants with scores ranging from 500 to 2000. And in that situation, average is far more important.

But in the end it's still just a pick-and-choose system. If I had 20 applicants to my group of people I don't know, I would still pick the ones with the most visually available experience. An average is not valuable to me if they have only done 5 dungeons.

[ydraw]

But in the end it's still just a pick-and-choose system. If I had 20 applicants to my group of people I don't know, I would still pick the ones with the most visually available experience. An average is not valuable to me if they have only done 5 dungeons.

That's the thing though, the issue isn't how many total dungeons they've done. It's how many different dungeons they've done.

If you were doing Nelth's lair would you rather have a guy who'd done +15-18 nelth's lair 20 times, or the guy who'd done every dungeon twice?

Because under the raider.io scoring system the first guy would have a score of 300 and the second guy would have a score of over 2000. Raider.io only counts your best score for each particular dungeon.

And again this isn't a purely theoretical question. The major reason for most people's low scores is that they do a small subset of dungeons over and over, either because they are the dungeons they know best/prefer most or have BIS gear that drops in those dungeons. Those people aren't bad players simply for choosing to limit themselves to a few dungeons.

And that is the major limitation of the raider.io scoring system. It penalises people for having preferred dungeons.

[Kaver]

That's the thing though, the issue isn't how many total dungeons they've done. It's how many different dungeons they've done.

If you were doing Nelth's lair would you rather have a guy who'd done +15-18 nelth's lair 20 times, or the guy who'd done every dungeon twice?

Because under the raider.io scoring system the first guy would have a score of 300 and the second guy would have a score of over 2000. Raider.io only counts your best score for each particular dungeon.

And again this isn't a purely theoretical question. The major reason for most people's low scores is that they do a small subset of dungeons over and over, either because they are the dungeons they know best/prefer most or have BIS gear that drops in those dungeons. Those people aren't bad players simply for choosing to limit themselves to a few dungeons.

And that is the major limitation of the raider.io scoring system.

I wouldn't bring someone who runs the same dungeon 20 times and never tries any of the 12 other choices :P

[Angrox]

I don't think its possible for people to tunnel one dungeon that hard. Even if you play upper only BM cos it's most optimal doesn't mean you can't play other dungeons as bm, or can't play upper as MM this train of thought is just grasping at straws.

There's no reason you can't play M+ as a hunter it's tier 1 dps class. The only reason i get declined these days is if ppl are worried about my ping being an issue (it's not on hunter) or they are reliant on comp (e.g. LF slow class as last dps spot).

[Veiled Shadow]

Yes, but your actual raider.io score is still based on the total for all dungeons. And it will show you your best run of upper Kara, but it won't show you how many times you've done it.

E.G. If I've done +15 upper kara 20 times, you're gonna see the same thing if you look at the score of someone who's only done it once. But if you've done some dungeons I haven't you'll have a higher score despite my much larger pool of experience in the dungeon I am actually applying to do.

So like I said, there's plenty to work on for the devs of raider.io.

And this is not just a theoretical problem. A lot of people run the same dungeon over and over because it drops certain BIS items for them, or just because they like it. That doesn't make them bad players, and honestly whether or not they know every trash ability for COEN is totally irrelevant if you're building a group for Darkheart Thicket etc.

I don't think I have ever seen a player (when mousing over them) that had thirty or more timed 15+ dungeons but a <2000 score. The same is true for players that have +20 as their highest scoring run; though I'd imagine there are slightly more examples of that than the prior mentioned case due to just starting in a fixed guild group or being carried, etc.

Missing 3-4 dungeons is of course more common, but that still gives enough leeway to get the score needed for a +15 pug.

[Marrilaife]

I don't think I have ever seen a player (when mousing over them) that had thirty or more timed 15+ dungeons but a <2000 score.

I'm a typical "weekly chest runner" atm my wowprogress says 60 +15s in time, but the since 7.3.5 the only runs recorded for "score" are 3 arcways, 1 hov, 1 nelths and 1 karazhan. So yeah, it's quite possible. I swear at least one of my weekly endeavours was maw +16 and it's not recorded despite leaderboard being extended to 500 slots.

I usually run 1 +15 or +16 per week at the end of the week, that's it. There are so many people fishing for last minute keys it's also the easiest to pug people into my key at the end of the reset, so I stuck to the habit. I checked one of my guildies I usually take with me on those runs - he has 3 dungeons recorded on 1 alt and 0 on the other. Despite I'd swear he didn't skip a week.

The system works for regular high key pushers and maybe for people on dead servers or those who run every time at the start of reset. For people like me, it doesn't help at all to find likeminded people (people who just want a chill no fuss +15 for the chest and done). At least I'm lucky to have a few guildies who want the same, push all their alts through a weekly 15 for the reward, so we can cycle the keys we have and pug whatever we're missing.

You don't need to be a m+ pro to be able to complete a +15, however currently if you have readymade 15 key that isn't some garbo dungeon the supply of people queuing will vastly overwhelm you, that's why people are trying to find shortcuts "how to quickly pick the best candidate without going crazy". In that situation "one number to measure it all" addons thrive. There's no perfect solution, unfortunately.

[Tokas]

what the hell is that raider.io, I can see you can check progress on website, is there actually an addon too, just like gearscore in the past?

[andreasels]

what the hell is that raider.io, I can see you can check progress on website, is there actually an addon too, just like gearscore in the past?

Yes, there's an addon: https://wow.curseforge.com/projects/raiderio

Shows the Raider.io score in tooltip. Really useful for forming M+ groups.

[Tokas]

Yes, there's an addon: https://wow.curseforge.com/projects/raiderio

Shows the Raider.io score in tooltip. Really useful for forming M+ groups.

jesus, back to gear score again