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  1. #201
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You should see actual homophobic stuff... this one is actually TV-friendly, almost affectionate. But sure, it stereotypes them as something average man doesn't want to see in their flat (woman doesn't mind him though)
    And what does that have to do with... anything? Being "TV friendly" doesn't make something not anti-gay.


    Western media have been "championing rights of gays" for a while. Just another imperialistic ploy creating "persecuted group" to legitimize their interventions/sanctions.
    When gay people are baited into situations and then violently beaten, they are a "persecuted group."

    Go to Saudis over it to not look hypocritical;
    You know I think there's enough international energy to pressure both Saudi Arabia AND Russia. At the same time.

    at least in Russia being homosexual is actually legal.
    For now.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    By having homosexuality being considered criminal offence? Really?
    Here's a simple question. Are the majority of Russian citizens homophobic?

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Okay, do you want to state your personal stance then, or do you want to keep it ambiguous to dodge any criticism?

    How would you approach changing Russia to accept homosexuality and same sex marriage? Clearly telling "you're wrong, stop it!" isn't working.
    Removing or toning down that "propaganda" law would be good first step.
    Otherwise you cannot ever have a honest discussion about it.

    There are other ways to keep activist groups out of schools.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    When gay people are baited into situations and then violently beaten, they are a "persecuted group."
    They live in same society; they generally know when they get "baited" and how to avoid it.

    You know I think there's enough international energy to pressure both Saudi Arabia AND Russia. At the same time.
    And yet, as far as i see, there are ten threads about "gays in Russia" to one about "gays in Saudi Arabia"

    For now.
    To that i can only reply - "Same sex marriage is legal in US - for now".

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    And yet, as far as i see, there are ten threads about "gays in Russia" to one about "gays in Saudi Arabia".
    Probably because we have a more hopes for human rights in Russia than in Saudi Arabia.
    Russia is a member of the ECHR, it is also our neighbour and integral part of our history.
    Saudi Arabia is neither.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Removing or toning down that "propaganda" law would be good first step.
    It is result of public discussion. Public sentiments are quite clear and didn't change.
    Noone is going against public opinion "just because West wants it", more so on election year and in adversarial position; you got to offer extremely big "carrot" for government to ignore their people, and as long as West is content to keeping their "gay support" symbolic incentive high enough is unlikely to materialise. You probably could get them to pass gay marriage if you would offer to completely withdraw from Syria over it, or drop Ukrainian support, for example.

    Otherwise you cannot ever have a honest discussion about it.
    There are plenty of forums where such discussions can be had. Anyone interested can read and participate in them; most aren't.

    There are other ways to keep activist groups out of schools.
    Like what?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Probably because we have a more hopes for human rights in Russia than in Saudi Arabia.
    Well, then you need to have carrot in addition to stick (criticisms).

    There is distinct lack of carrot lately after "joining EU" (even if decades later) hopes were dashed.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    There are plenty of forums where such discussions can be had. Anyone interested can read and participate in them; most aren't.
    Yes, and that is the whole point of having a "propaganda law" making sure to keep others from raising interest while giving the other side an advantage by letting them spread their propaganda unchecked.
    Like what?
    Schools commonly have a right to decide who is allowed on the premise.
    Does the concept of domiciliary rights not exist in Russia?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Well, then you need to have carrot in addition to stick (criticisms).

    There is distinct lack of carrot lately after "joining EU" (even if decades later) hopes were dashed.
    Nope, we don't, we aren't trying to bribe or force you to improve things for your own citizens.
    That your hopes of joining the EU "are dashed" is the fault of your government, it is acting like the EU is "the enemy".
    Probably because having an enemy ready that you can point at helps them stay in power.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    Yes, and that is the whole point of having a "propaganda law" making sure to keep others from raising interest while giving the other side an advantage by letting them spread their propaganda unchecked.
    Can you show examples of that "other side" abusing their supposed advantage for propaganda?
    Maybe they do and i am just not seeing it?

    Schools commonly have a right to decide who is allowed on the premise.
    Schools for minors in Russia are directly subservient to district educational administrations (=government). It wouldn't change anything practically; most things can be allowed until specifically banned after some excess.

    Does the concept of domiciliary rights not exist in Russia?
    Hmm, it is first time i'm seeing this term and quick google search/translation doesn't bring much clarity on how it could be applicable to schools.

    Nope, we don't, we aren't trying to bribe or force you to improve things for your own citizens.
    So, it is just grandstanding. Okay.
    Ah, right, you think it is enough because it looked like it worked before, when government was pursuing European Integration strategy. Well, that one evaporated with 2014 and everything that followed.
    Practically it would make more sense to make our customs more aligned to China now - not that they have enough expertise to do that though.

    That your hopes of joining the EU "are dashed" is the fault of your government, it is acting like the EU is "the enemy".
    It was dashed because EU acted completely as an enemy, refusing tri-partite talks in simple negotiations with Ukraine, and then supporting violent overthrow of Ukrainian government (despite all Russian warning that it is exactly what is going to happen).

    Probably because having an enemy ready that you can point at helps them stay in power.
    Yeah, yeah, it'll all us and nothing from you /s
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2018-02-24 at 03:15 PM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    That is still giving him attention that he does not deserve. He is like an itch that everyone should stop scratching, and maybe he would finally disappear.
    Why don't you follow your own advice though?

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    It's why the first step to any "healing" is acknowledging, with 100% sincerity, that you have a problem, an addiction, or are committing some "sin" (the non-religious version of that word).

    He may or may not understand what he is doing, but continue to do it out of desperation. Or, he may be a sadistic person, who enjoys triggering people...
    Your imagination is running way too wild.

    I'm just sitting in my flat discussing things on forums, looking for different perspectives and views on various things; that requires engaging people to see what supports their views. I'm not paid for it; i've been registered on this forum because i wanted some feedback on SimCraft subtlety rogue module when i worked on it and played WoW ( i think i mostly posted on Elitist Jerks before that ); and before that obviously i read MMO-Champ for WoW news.

    I only got active on offtopic forum at Ukrainian crisis because i caught thread about it on main page and decided to add Russian side of coverage to it; and then it became fascinating window into American and European viewpoints.

    I have no problems with gays as i'm not seeing any, nor do i pry into private lives of those around me; and any i know and might have heard as gay are of lesbian variety - and those, as it generally goes, carry a lot less stigma/disgust response then male variety. No problems with them. There is mild disgust response to male sex; it is perfectly tolerable if necessary.

    Which is why i feel i can discuss it more or less objectively, from utilitarian perspective.

    But to go "sin"/"redemption" angle... are you ready to ask for redemption from Russia for all US wars, for example? Or for slavery? Or for segregation? Or for plethora of other sins, both those with progress being made and those still unapologetically practiced - even those that have absolutely nothing to do with you?

    Shouldn't you first feel some kind of unity before it happens? Or at least not being "othered"?
    Redemption only makes sense if you're supposed to re-join those who redeem you - and consider that desirable.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2018-02-24 at 06:25 PM.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    You are assuming I think the US government has not sinned, or that the leadership in this country is perfect. The country has many, many sins to acknowledge and work through. But I am not shilling for the US, or the US government. I am shilling for the constitution. The ideas, and ideals the nation was built on... we have fallen very far from the ideals.
    Such nuance is too often lost when looked upon from outside perspective.

    For example, i often voted communists when they provided decent candidates (or by default if i didn't know any other candidate as provably better); i do not plan voting for Putin this time.

    Still, when given no alternative, Putin can be quite passable. Imperialism isn't pretty, but it can be okay for subjects done right - and Putin mostly did it right. Sure, that ruffed plenty of feathers; imperialism isn't about friendship, it is about "state interests".

    At some point I hope the US and Russia have a truly friendly relationship of mutual respect... that won't come with Putin, or Trump in charge (or Obama, or Hillary).
    Sure; after both Russia and US suffer socialist revolution (or peaceful takeover - less likely, but possible).

    All signs are pointing to that being possibility.

    As empires, there is no way for them but to clash.

  12. #212
    Deleted
    Vesti Exclusive: Kadyrov Opens Up About Himself, Homosexuality, Islam and the Future of Chechnya.

    Vesti News
    Nov 28, 2017



    This place is known not only in Chechnya, it's the symbol of a reborn capital. The Heart of Chechnya mosque is the largest not only in Russia but also in Europe. How to increase the flow of tourists? How safe is it here? Are there gays in Chechnya? Let's ask the head of the Republic, Ramzan Kadyrov.

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