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  1. #261
    Her ultimate death is necessary to move the Horde away from borderline villanous decision-making and to finally put an end to what was - storywise - a huge stain on the faction; the actions of their undead allies.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Her ultimate death is necessary to move the Horde away from borderline villanous decision-making and to finally put an end to what was - storywise - a huge stain on the faction; the actions of their undead allies.
    And I am sure it has nothing to do with them bowing down to their new spiritual liege Anduin Wrynn.

  3. #263
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    And I am sure it has nothing to do with them bowing down to their new spiritual liege Anduin Wrynn.
    What if Sylvanas goes full Azerite-kamikaze on Stormwind and blows it up? I mean, she would be dead at that point, everyone should be 100% fine with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    What if Sylvanas goes full Azerite-kamikaze on Stormwind and blows it up? I mean, she would be dead at that point, everyone should be 100% fine with that.
    Would be cool to see a massive shift in capitals actually, but the way things go, Blizzard would have to destroy Orgrimmar too because of the parity that accompanies any and all of their decisions.

    This parallel storytelling based on parity in both gaining and losing is the main downside of the most recently revealed story developments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    And I am sure it has nothing to do with them bowing down to their new spiritual liege Anduin Wrynn.
    Not quite sure what you meant here. Are you speaking of that Anduin video where we see him besides Velen?

  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    What if Sylvanas goes full Azerite-kamikaze on Stormwind and blows it up? I mean, she would be dead at that point, everyone should be 100% fine with that.
    Sylvanas should just possess Anduin and make him start using swear words and kick puppies. The guilt would mentally destroy him and Horde would win.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Would be cool to see a massive shift in capitals actually, but the way things go, Blizzard would have to destroy Orgrimmar too because of the parity that accompanies any and all of their decisions.

    This parallel storytelling based on parity in both gaining and losing is the main downside of the most recently revealed story developments.

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    Not quite sure what you meant here. Are you speaking of that Anduin video where we see him besides Velen?
    Spiritual Liege is a meme originating from Warhammer 40K, if you are asking about that. More info here, https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Spiritual_liege

    Also, @Verdugo, I doubt you can find many 40K/WHFB fans here who can understand the references, so tone it down a bit. Don't stop using them, but don't use them always either.

    For the Emperor.


    Speaking of the Emperor... It would be absolutely hilarious if Anduin ever gets to rule over all seven kingdoms alone without inteferences, becoming the first ruler that ruled all of humanity since Thoradin and then start calling himself Emperor of Mankind.


    Also, imagine what would have happened if Thoradin was Sigmar 2.0.
    Last edited by WanderingWarrior; 2019-12-06 at 03:32 PM.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingWarrior View Post

    Spiritual Liege is a meme originating from Warhammer 40K, if you are asking about that. More info here, https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Spiritual_liege
    I wasn't aware it was a meme related to 40K. I figured it addressed Anduin as the "spiritual liege" as it seemed that was the way Blizzard had him portrayed in his comic.

  8. #268
    Deleted
    Nonsense poopy pants. The horde is half of the franchise. It won't go away. Neither side will go away. It's the phony war no one can win.

    Also, nothing should be sacred. The story can't move along if you toss boulders in front of it.
    Last edited by mmoc80be7224cc; 2018-03-05 at 12:31 AM.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by ello View Post
    True. They aren't exact counterparts. But Jaina also had a role in The Shattering, was a major character in Cycle of Hatred and also showed up in Arthas' book(along with Sylvanas). It's not exactly 1:1 but it's pretty close. Both were introduced in WC3, played similar roles in WOTLK, both showed up in SoO, both were major characters in War Crimes, both are major characters in BfA etc.

    Anyways, my main point with that post is that Sylvanas wasn't being hogging screentime like that guy suggested, and I still think that. She's the most developed of the current Horde cast(unless you count Thrall), but that's because Blizzard keeps killing/underusing other leaders.

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    Sylvanas is one of the most dynamic characters in the setting.

    She's gone from Ranger-General , to undead servant, to vengeful Banshee, to not caring about her life anymore, to caring about the survival of her people as a bulwark, to trying to mend broken connections(Vereesa, Nathanos), to being forced into Warchief of the Horde. She's made unlikely friends, she's shifted her view on undeath(no longer sees it as a curse), she's softened towards the Horde, she's grown to respect and even show affection for individuals within the Horde(Vol'jin), she's seemingly grown to care about the Forsaken as people etc. She's been betrayed on multiple occasions which has led to her becoming more calculating and ruthless with every showing. And every step has made sense for her character. It makes sense for her to be so cold and pragmatic after the fall of Silvermoon, being harder on her subordinates after being betrayed , caring about the Forsaken after their fates became intertwined etc.
    Most of that is pure lip-service on her part, though. We've never seen her take any sort of action to convey she has changed.

    I'm not saying "Sylvanas doesn't have feelings", either. But as a character, she is as stagnant a character as there has ever been. It doesn't matter "what she's been through" or "why she does what she does". What matters is that, from the moment she was introduced, to what we know her to be in the expansion, she is EXACTLY the same in every iteration.

    Manipulative, self-serving, and angry. Her course of action never wavers. Her character has never grown. None of the things that have happened to her have ever -- not even once -- impacted her decision-making in any way whatsoever. She is predictable and unchanging. I'm not saying she's a *bad* or even *boring* character, but that she has become both of those things by never experiencing any sort of character-arc. I don't think anyone suddenly wants a peace-loving Sylvanas, but having her dealt a blow of personal loss, something we've never seen from her, to the point she acts unexpectedly (such as accidentally killing her sister, and giving up the mantle of Warchief), is something that, frankly, NEEDS to happen.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
    Most of that is pure lip-service on her part, though. We've never seen her take any sort of action to convey she has changed.

    I'm not saying "Sylvanas doesn't have feelings", either. But as a character, she is as stagnant a character as there has ever been. It doesn't matter "what she's been through" or "why she does what she does". What matters is that, from the moment she was introduced, to what we know her to be in the expansion, she is EXACTLY the same in every iteration.

    Manipulative, self-serving, and angry. Her course of action never wavers. Her character has never grown. None of the things that have happened to her have ever -- not even once -- impacted her decision-making in any way whatsoever. She is predictable and unchanging. I'm not saying she's a *bad* or even *boring* character, but that she has become both of those things by never experiencing any sort of character-arc. I don't think anyone suddenly wants a peace-loving Sylvanas, but having her dealt a blow of personal loss, something we've never seen from her, to the point she acts unexpectedly (such as accidentally killing her sister, and giving up the mantle of Warchief), is something that, frankly, NEEDS to happen.


    None of that was lip service. I specifically picked moments that could only be interpreted one way because they were monologues, or she had no reason to lie ( e.g. talking to Nathanos).

    At bare minimum she changed from WOTLK/Cata transition because it changed her motivation massively, and the way she treats the Forsaken as a result.

    For the record, I'm not opposed to her dealing with some personal loss(death of her sister or Nathanos might be interesting), but I just take issue with "sylvanas never changed". That's blatantly not true.

    Though I would argue losing Undercity could very well be a catalyst for Sylvanas. Just look at what losing a city did to Greymane.
    Last edited by ello; 2018-03-07 at 07:40 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Nonsense poopy pants. The horde is half of the franchise. It won't go away. Neither side will go away. It's the phony war no one can win.

    Also, nothing should be sacred. The story can't move along if you toss boulders in front of it.
    But if sylvanas dies then everybody win

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    Quote Originally Posted by ello View Post
    None of that was lip service. I specifically picked moments that could only be interpreted one way because they were monologues, or she had no reason to lie ( e.g. talking to Nathanos).

    At bare minimum she changed from WOTLK/Cata transition because it changed her motivation massively, and the way she treats the Forsaken as a result.
    Yeah but most of her "change" is forced. Like, she started caring about Voljin. Just because out of the blue. No build or something.
    And please, her views on the curse of undeath are not character growth but 101 how to fuck up character development. IF there is any change on her view, because i dont believe there is. She still believes it is fucked up state but has no problems to fuck others with it.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    im pretty sure in cata the plan was for us to kill off sylvanas, the lich king comment, fenris isle, soutshore, gilneas, deploying the plague after being ordered to stop.
    meanwhile garrosh was about honor in stonetalon and led his troops head first into twilight highlands and would not let his horde fall.
    i feel though that for some reason they backed off from sylvanas and moved it to garrosh instead, cause it makes no sense of how he just does a 180 flip
    You're looking at it from the Alliance point of view. Garrosh=bad, Sylvanas=bad

    But that doesn't determine if a Horde Warchief gets the cut. Garrosh became a villain around the time he had Voljin assassinated, that's when the rebellion got it's start. But it wasn't enough to get Horde players to go along, even after SoO many players weren't convinced, so they had to go and make more revisions and change/add things that were in game to make us want him dead(War Crimes).
    If Blizzard wants Sylvanas to be a villain, learning from mistakes with Garrosh, they would be making Sylvanas do similar things to members of the Horde... they haven't so chances of her being a villain are so slim right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    What if Sylvanas goes full Azerite-kamikaze on Stormwind and blows it up? I mean, she would be dead at that point, everyone should be 100% fine with that.
    What if the Val'kyr teach her how to enter the Shadowlands like they did with Arthas? She could just slip into right before the explosion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagoth Ur View Post
    Sylvanas should just possess Anduin and make him start using swear words and kick puppies. The guilt would mentally destroy him and Horde would win.
    gotta make him kick the chickens to get the people to turn on him.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post

    Yeah but most of her "change" is forced.
    Not really, no. i can fully understand every change she's made given what she's experienced.


    Like, she started caring about Voljin. Just because out of the blue. No build or something.
    A year and half can do wonders, apparently.

    Even in her SoO dialogue she acknowledges he did something impressive and says there are things about him to be admired.

    "But, he put this little coalition together, and won the day. He's also proven to be impossible to kill - I admire that."


    And please, her views on the curse of undeath are not character growth but 101 how to fuck up character development. IF there is any change on her view, because i dont believe there is. She still believes it is fucked up state but has no problems to fuck others with it.
    No, it makes prefect sense given that she knows what the alternative is now. And she's definitely shifted her view on undeath, she makes that pretty clear when she says "in death we are reborn" in Silverpine or her monologues in War Crimes.
    Last edited by ello; 2018-03-07 at 07:59 PM.

  14. #274
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    You're looking at it from the Alliance point of view. Garrosh=bad, Sylvanas=bad

    But that doesn't determine if a Horde Warchief gets the cut. Garrosh became a villain around the time he had Voljin assassinated, that's when the rebellion got it's start. But it wasn't enough to get Horde players to go along, even after SoO many players weren't convinced, so they had to go and make more revisions and change/add things that were in game to make us want him dead(War Crimes).
    If Blizzard wants Sylvanas to be a villain, learning from mistakes with Garrosh, they would be making Sylvanas do similar things to members of the Horde... they haven't so chances of her being a villain are so slim right now.

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    What if the Val'kyr teach her how to enter the Shadowlands like they did with Arthas? She could just slip into right before the explosion

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    gotta make him kick the chickens to get the people to turn on him.
    except if you actuallty read my post
    im looking at it from the alliance point of view
    Garrosh=good, Sylvanas=bad

    atleast it was that way in cataclysm till all of a sudden garrosh did a full 180, and we just are supposed to forget what sylvanas did
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  15. #275
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    except if you actuallty read my post
    im looking at it from the alliance point of view
    Garrosh=good, Sylvanas=bad

    atleast it was that way in cataclysm till all of a sudden garrosh did a full 180, and we just are supposed to forget what sylvanas did
    uh, where would have the Alliance seen Garrosh as good? The moment he arrived on Azeroth he was picking fights. The Horde hasn't forgotten about Sylvanas, most of them just don't care what s he does if she's doing it to the Alliance, as most factions do not care what their allies do to the opposite faction.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  16. #276
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    uh, where would have the Alliance seen Garrosh as good? The moment he arrived on Azeroth he was picking fights. The Horde hasn't forgotten about Sylvanas, most of them just don't care what s he does if she's doing it to the Alliance, as most factions do not care what their allies do to the opposite faction.
    i ... what?
    ok so the other person said "You're looking at it from the Alliance point of view. Garrosh=bad, Sylvanas=bad"
    but i said "no, i am looking at their actions and seeing that garrosh was good for the horde, he was a leader filled with honor, yes he was picking fights, but he was good. Sylvanas was not" he then says im saying both are bad, when i liked cataclysm garrosh but didnt like cataclysm sylv
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  17. #277
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    i ... what?
    ok so the other person said "You're looking at it from the Alliance point of view. Garrosh=bad, Sylvanas=bad"
    but i said "no, i am looking at their actions and seeing that garrosh was good for the horde, he was a leader filled with honor, yes he was picking fights, but he was good. Sylvanas was not" he then says im saying both are bad, when i liked cataclysm garrosh but didnt like cataclysm sylv
    And I'm telling you Garrosh was always more harmful to the Horde than Sylvanas. Sylvanas didn't challenge other Horde leaders to duels to the death, or think that throwing away soilders to die was a good strategy because if they died it would be "honorable." you can like Cata Garrosh over Sylvanas, but it doesn't mean he was better for the Horde in terms of it's longevity in comparison to her.

    and you said you were looking at it from an Alliance point of view, where the hell would the Alliance consider the guy that would steamroll them if he could as good?
    Last edited by Friendlyimmolation; 2018-03-07 at 08:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  18. #278
    The Unstoppable Force FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    And I'm telling you Garrosh was always more harmful to the Horde than Sylvanas. Sylvanas didn't challenge other Horde leaders to duels to the death, or think that throwing away soilders to die was a good strategy because if they died it would be "honorable." you can like Cata Garrosh over Sylvanas, but it doesn't mean he was better for the Horde in terms of it's longevity in comparison to her.

    and you said you were looking at it from an Alliance point of view, where the hell would the Alliance consider the guy that would steamroll them if he could as good?
    i said i was looking at it from someone who played alliance, not as an "alliance charecter"
    never did i say "my charecter would prefer garrosh" i said me as an alliance player. and im not even sure i said that.
    yeah i never even said that, it was pushed on me by the other person that i was looking at it as an alliance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  19. #279
    Legendary! The One Percent's Avatar
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    Sacred cow fallacy
    You're getting exactly what you deserve.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    i ... what?
    ok so the other person said "You're looking at it from the Alliance point of view. Garrosh=bad, Sylvanas=bad"
    but i said "no, i am looking at their actions and seeing that garrosh was good for the horde, he was a leader filled with honor, yes he was picking fights, but he was good. Sylvanas was not" he then says im saying both are bad, when i liked cataclysm garrosh but didnt like cataclysm sylv
    If you really want to see from Alliance's viewpoint, then "picking a fight==dishonor". Picking a fight without a just cause is always the number one reason for Alliance to blame Horde. Alliance did not care that much for "fighting dirty" because they fought in that way all the time.

    Sylvanas only started war in a corner of the world, but Garrosh started war everywhere. The only thing you can really argue for hating Sylvanas more than Garrosh is the fact that Sylvanas is undead, which might be considered as "un-natural" for most Alliance. But then Orcs also have multiple problems: coming from another planet, used to be tainted by demon blood, etc.. Varian called for the death of all green skins since WotLK, and he had quite a few personal direct confronts with Garrosh but none with Sylvanas. Jaina also had good reason to hate Orc more than undead.

    So I do not think your argument hold much weight. In most Alliance's eye, the Horde's races are more or less the same on a moral scale (maybe they would put Tauren as an exception), and I do not think they bother much to check whether Sylvanas is better or worse than Garrosh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    i said i was looking at it from someone who played alliance, not as an "alliance charecter"
    never did i say "my charecter would prefer garrosh" i said me as an alliance player. and im not even sure i said that.
    yeah i never even said that, it was pushed on me by the other person that i was looking at it as an alliance.

    Alliance player might hate Sylvanas more than Garrosh, but then the main reason is not Garrosh has more honor (he does not, to be honest), it is because Sylvanas actually kicked Alliance's butt more effectively than Garrosh.

    One of the most common arguments used by ppls who love to call the death of Sylvanas is : how can she not be held accountable for her action? (translate: how can she actually win in the wars against Alliance?).

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