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  1. #41
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    Well, at no point did I suggest lowering the difficulty of dungeons/raids or implementing the LFD/LFR tools. That's a narrative people are creating on their own based on other people's threads.

    I like big scale raids, they feel rewarding. That said, they also require time to form and participate in, and we shouldn't take that away from people. Legion has however taught us that there are players who don't want to commit to raiding, but still want some challenging and varied PVE content through dungeons.

    Lastly, this isn't an alt. Again, this is people fancifully inventing their own narrative to oppose something they don't like.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    The major issue here I see is that current blizzard design requires that all content be doable by all players on some difficulty level - and worse, dungeons seem to be tuned/paced for fairly short runs, a long current dungeon run is far shorter than a short dungeon run in classic.

    i bet this issue is getting more attention inside blizz that folks here would like to believe.
    That doesn't have to mean that Classic has to abide by "modern" WoW rules like multiple difficulties/scaling/transmog, it's a side project based on an original.

    Adding multiple difficulties or something completely instantly defeats the point, while you can just "ironman" your way through Classic if you want, do naxx in tier 1 or whatever if you want hard-mode.
    Last edited by Teri; 2018-03-06 at 06:05 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Deficineiron View Post
    1) resistance gear requirement for fights be reduced or functionally eliminated
    2) personal loot added and/or greatly increased raid drop rates.
    3) raid difficulties added as a replacement timesink for the above. this would facilitate making sure everyone kills KT while keeping some 'content' for the dedicated raid players.
    I wouldn't be surprised either, but this is the exact kind of change the "no changes" crowd hate with a passion because it makes skill more important than how much free time you have.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teri View Post
    while you can just "ironman" your way through Classic if you want, do naxx in tier 1 or whatever if you want hard-mode.
    You literally can't though.

    As discussed previously, there's very little mechanic or tactical challenge in Vanilla. Gear is the only thing stopping you. And it doesn't matter if you're the best player in the world, mathematically impossible is mathematically impossible. You can't simply walk into Naxx in tier 1 gear because your tank will be 1 shot by every boss swing.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    As discussed previously, there's very little mechanic or tactical challenge in Vanilla. Gear is the only thing stopping you. And it doesn't matter if you're the best player in the world, mathematically impossible is mathematically impossible. You can't simply walk into Naxx in tier 1 gear because your tank will be 1 shot by every boss swing.
    Well. maybe that was a bit of extreme example, but we don't need heroic or mythic raid/dungeons either. Even if they added more scaling, they aren't going to change boss mechanics.

    I remember doing Ragnaros before sons sometime late vanilla and that was an ALT raid, stats/talents improved so much late vanilla it became pretty stupid, at least MC/BWL got really easy, and you could certainly make those harder by taking down some gear.

    MC was a joke (in tier2+), while at the same time we didn't clear naxx before TBC. Naxx was remade for a reason that very few people cleared it so classic won't hit a phase where "omg 99% of raiders cleared naxx" even while the cycle will be faster with more knowledge.

    But that doesn't mean we should get either an "easier" naxx or "harder" MC to compensate.
    Last edited by Teri; 2018-03-06 at 06:15 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised either, but this is the exact kind of change the "no changes" crowd hate with a passion because it makes skill more important than how much free time you have.
    The no-change crowd is a more diverse viewpoint set than you suggest.

    I would call myself a no-changer since the only changes I think blizzard will make are going to follow the trend of their retail product, and in fact I fully expect that. My free time is such that, if I play on an actual classic server a la 1.x.x, I may never have a mx-level character, but -

    1) I can level at least 4 unique toon paths on horde/alliance, with some overlap late, but maybe not much if i do dungeons
    2) dungeons - major time structure event for an evening -
    3) low-lvl pvp - even better, something I miss.

    let blizzard do their 'accessibilization/modernization' job on wow, and 1 and 2 are trivialized, and who knows what they do to 3 - bg timers, modern bg rule sets and maps (a la wsg), etc.
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Teri View Post
    Well. maybe that was a bit of extreme example, but we don't need heroic or mythic raid/dungeons either.
    The history of the game has shown that you do. Multiple difficulties didn't come along by accident. There is a massive, massive gulf in skill between the best players and even average players in this game, and as big a gulf again between average and bad.

    With a single difficulty, every boss is going to be either way too easy or way too hard for half of the playing population. The only solution to this dilemma was to have multiple difficulties. And this was known very, very early into the game's history - as early as burning crusade, but only really fully implemented in WOTLK.

    If raids and dungeons go live in Classic as they were in Vanilla it will be a giant snooze fest. Standing around autoattacking a boss with 1 mechanic for 15 weeks until you have enough fire resist gear to kill the next boss is not fun or engaging gameplay. People put up with it 14 years ago because it was the only game in town. They won't now.

  7. #47
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    3/10 - Nice grammar and punctuation, but the bait is way too obvious. Not too bad for a beginner troll, but it needs far more work.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    The only solution to this dilemma was to have multiple difficulties. And this was known very, very early into the game's history - as early as burning crusade, but only really fully implemented in WOTLK.
    There were no multiple difficulties whatsoever in BC, not even hints thereof.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2018-03-06 at 07:07 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by He-man View Post
    why do people keep insisting vanilla raiding was easy. this is entirely based off the fact these people have only done these raids at level 80+ and in many cases 100+ and just breaze thru them and think it "must not have been that hard back in the day" or "it was only a gear check".

    this isn't true at all. the retail perception of classic is really uniformed and makes sense considering it was over 12 years ago.

    people will be grinding endgame in classic servers for 2 years or maybe even more for some who miss raids every week.
    Because most raids weren't complex and 5mans nowadays have as many, if not more, mechanics.

    There are still gear checks and with how hard gear it is to obtain in vanilla, I'm sure there will be bosses that are roadblocks. Vael DPS check and Chromaggus sand farming comes to mind first, but roadblock from refining strategies will not exist anymore since all of these fights are well known and explored for over a decade at this point.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    3/10 - Nice grammar and punctuation, but the bait is way too obvious. Not too bad for a beginner troll, but it needs far more work.

    There were no multiple difficulties whatsoever in BC, not even hints thereof.
    You're aware Heroic Dungeons first appeared in TBC right?

  10. #50
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sollioswoop View Post
    You're aware Heroic Dungeons first appeared in TBC right?
    Who cares about HC dungeons, raids were, are and always will be wow's main dish /shrug

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    Because most raids weren't complex and 5mans nowadays have as many, if not more, mechanics.

    There are still gear checks and with how hard gear it is to obtain in vanilla, I'm sure there will be bosses that are roadblocks. Vael DPS check and Chromaggus sand farming comes to mind first, but roadblock from refining strategies will not exist anymore since all of these fights are well known and explored for over a decade at this point.
    Yeah I think the fights are all reasonably well documented and known; some borderline tactics will likely get patched out. I'm concerned that there'll be a big content drought for longer term players, and that'll subsequently make it harder for newer players to get invested. It'd be a shame to see the servers die in a year because people are already pretty expert at the content, and they have more tools/addons/databases to get them through stuff than before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    There were no multiple difficulties whatsoever in BC, not even hints thereof.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Who cares about HC dungeons, raids were, are and always will be wow's main dish /shrug
    If you're going to accuse me of trolling, could you at least get your facts straight?
    Last edited by mmoc9e7fcb9ae6; 2018-03-06 at 07:53 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    If raids and dungeons go live in Classic as they were in Vanilla it will be a giant snooze fest. Standing around autoattacking a boss with 1 mechanic for 15 weeks until you have enough fire resist gear to kill the next boss is not fun or engaging gameplay..
    For you it might be boring, but people will play Classic, and BfA or 9.0 isn't going away. Classic will always learn closer to the original then to Legion/BfA.

    Like I said before, it's a side project, not meant to compete with Current WoW, any extra subs are a nice bonus without needing to create new assets. If the demand wasn't there, they wouldn't have done it.

  13. #53
    I don't think Classic needs any changes. Assuming it happens at all it's just going to be something for people to very casually progress characters on.

    People will have different opinion on this, but I think people will care less about pursuing or following "world 1st" on kills on Classic server than they do on live (which is already very little to begin with). The big thing is going to be the leveling experience and maybe pvp, and not really raiding.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Raiding WAS easy from mechanical standpoint. Most bosses in vanilla are on par with your average dungeon boss these days in 'retail'. grinding for resistance gear/attunements, and playing against poorly tuned bosses, a difficult game does not create. And before you rant at me, yes I did play in 2005 and did raid (did not make it in naxx tho)
    It's not like Blizz doesn't struggle with raid tuning even today And if fights are technically more complex today it's thanks to hyperinflated mobility across the board (with one or two exceptions) and add-ons like WA or DBM, which basically hand-hold you through the entire encounter. Without these crutches, today's bosses would be straight unbeatable.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It's not like Blizz doesn't struggle with raid tuning even today And if fights are technically more complex today it's thanks to hyperinflated mobility across the board (with one or two exceptions) and add-ons like WA or DBM, which basically hand-hold you through the entire encounter. Without these crutches, today's bosses would be straight unbeatable.
    Some of them, maybe. I argue most of them are still very doable without boss mods. Most information are already there via debuff/boss energy/etc so I'm not sure what is there to track using addons that would make encounters very difficult without them.

    Only thing that really comes to my mind are probably Mistress with Hydra Shot soaking for Legion, and even that can be worked out via communication

  16. #56
    Vanilla already had a hard mode, and I never met anyone that claimed to have done it:

    Hakkar the Soulflayer, the original hard mode. Leaving the priests up gave him serious new abilities:

    High Priestess Jeklik (Bat Aspect) - 1200-2000 AoE damage + 8s silence.
    High Priest Venoxis (Snake Aspect) - 800 damage poison to the raid.
    High Priestess Mar'li (Spider Aspect) - 6 second stun against current aggro holder. (Prior to patch 1.12, there was additionally a complete aggro reset).
    High Priest Thekal (Tiger Aspect) - Frenzy, increasing attack speed by 150%.
    High Priestess Arlokk (Panther Aspect) - 2 second gouge (aggro wipes the main tank)

    I would like to see this on farm before people clamor for higher difficulty classic.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    I'm sure some people will wipe on Onyxia a few times. But will the best players in the world wipe 362 times on Onyxia? No, they will not.

    Because raids are far, far more challenging in every way in the modern version of WoW than they were in Vanilla. Many Vanilla bosses make LFR look really difficult. Which is why it's so Ironic that "no changes" vanilla crowd disparagingly refer to current players as "retail babies".

    The game is far more difficult now than it ever was in the past. The only thing that has gotten easier is that less grinding and repetition of the same content is needed in order to advance to the next raiding challenge.
    I've raided on the highest difficulty for 11 years I'm quite aware that fights now are more difficult and also have shifted the difficulty from organization and gearing to personal responsibility.

    Retail still sucks though and I want classic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by plagueshard801 View Post
    Vanilla already had a hard mode, and I never met anyone that claimed to have done it:

    Hakkar the Soulflayer, the original hard mode. Leaving the priests up gave him serious new abilities:

    High Priestess Jeklik (Bat Aspect) - 1200-2000 AoE damage + 8s silence.
    High Priest Venoxis (Snake Aspect) - 800 damage poison to the raid.
    High Priestess Mar'li (Spider Aspect) - 6 second stun against current aggro holder. (Prior to patch 1.12, there was additionally a complete aggro reset).
    High Priest Thekal (Tiger Aspect) - Frenzy, increasing attack speed by 150%.
    High Priestess Arlokk (Panther Aspect) - 2 second gouge (aggro wipes the main tank)

    I would like to see this on farm before people clamor for higher difficulty classic.
    Blood Legion got him to 20% with Naxxramas gear.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    3/10 - Nice grammar and punctuation, but the bait is way too obvious. Not too bad for a beginner troll, but it needs far more work.



    There were no multiple difficulties whatsoever in BC, not even hints thereof.
    Yes there were. Normal and Heroic dungeons.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ydraw View Post
    Yes there were. Normal and Heroic dungeons.
    Did BC heroics count as endgame for you? There could be several difficulties for levelling and no one would give a hoot about it, unless it yielded endgame worthy gear.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Did BC heroics count as endgame for you? There could be several difficulties for levelling and no one would give a hoot about it, unless it yielded endgame worthy gear.
    Stop shifting goalposts. TBC had multiple difficulties for some content. And some heroics (e.g. magister's terrace) did earn endgame worthy gear.

    You are wrong. The end.

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