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  1. #421
    Epic! OreoLover's Avatar
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    ...there should just be a "Refund Policy" megathread, with how these spiral for days...
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  2. #422
    Quote Originally Posted by pyro989898 View Post
    Blizz states that for refund one should not have used below two :-
    1.Used the included Level 110 Boost.
    2.Fully unlocked the ability to create an Allied Race character.
    Well ur correct about almost no spoilage of digital product unlike in physical product.But the reason i think blizz will not refund money even if one states that they used only 1% of digital product because of difference in opinion about worth of product already used by a player. Even if blizz stats the cost associated with above 2 points mentioned , some people will surely argue against the cost mentioned by blizz. Next some people will say i have played allied race for just 1 hr and didn't like , so please refund back some money. This kind of cost estimation depending on a digital product usage is complex and based on subjective opinion. By subjective opinion i mean one may say character boost should cost 10$,other 5$ ,other 3$ and so on.Even if bliz tomorrow states that if a player has used character boost only 60% of money will be refunded some guy will think it should not cost so much and will start a thread or complain about it.
    Hence simply mention a strict rule so that their will be no fuse between blizz and customer regarding what should be refund value when some one used some percentage of a digital product.
    Except that it should be a simple matter to lock any characters which are allied races, or lock the boosted character until such a time as BfA is once again purchased. At which point the boosted character and allied races would once again become available for use. You don't even have to go into the arguments about the value of the product. You simply turn off access to it until you pay again.

    This is the advantage of a digital product, ESPECIALLY a subscription/service-based digital product. It can be manipulated in these ways with relative, almost negligible ease, given that Blizzard's underlying account architecture isn't a complete and total garbage heap.
    Fastest proven leveling up methods: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post49085801

  3. #423
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Except that it should be a simple matter to lock any characters which are allied races, or lock the boosted character until such a time as BfA is once again purchased. At which point the boosted character and allied races would once again become available for use. You don't even have to go into the arguments about the value of the product. You simply turn off access to it until you pay again.

    This is the advantage of a digital product, ESPECIALLY a subscription/service-based digital product. It can be manipulated in these ways with relative, almost negligible ease, given that Blizzard's underlying account architecture isn't a complete and total garbage heap.
    i am not getting as what you want to convey.
    As such under what condition "allied character+boosted character" be locked ?
    locked character should be locked until bfa is purchased again.why would some one who pre purchased game would purchase again ?

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by pyro989898 View Post
    i am not getting as what you want to convey.
    As such under what condition "allied character+boosted character" be locked ?
    locked character should be locked until bfa is purchased again.why would some one who pre purchased game would purchase again ?
    When someone does a refund because they needed the money, but later on can afford to once again buy the game.
    Fastest proven leveling up methods: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post49085801

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    When someone does a refund because they needed the money, but later on can afford to once again buy the game.
    and whats the guarantee that the player will come back and buy the game again ?

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by pyro989898 View Post
    and whats the guarantee that the player will come back and buy the game again ?
    Why does there need to be a guarantee. On the scale of millions of players, Blizzard knows that many of them will constantly come and go. People quit and return to wow all the time.

    I'm really not sure what you're getting at here.
    Fastest proven leveling up methods: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post49085801

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Imagine if Blizzard took responsibility for their poor game design and 20k people didn't want to refund in the first place?

    This game can be played both ways. At the scale of MILLIONS of players paying them $15 every month on top of $50 for the expansion, I'm sure they can afford to come up with a way to handle a mere 20k people wanting to refund that's better than "Too bad so sad."
    Reading comprehension, that is all.

    Literally no one who knows how to read and understand what they read has had a problem with refunds. Stupid people shouldn't have their hands held, maybe next time they'll try to understand what they're doing before doing it. Good life lesson all and all, for only $60.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I really wish people would stop using physical product examples. It's not even remotely accurate to how digital sales work. :/
    A good is a good, digital or physical. You bought something and used part of it and then want to return it, full stop. It doesn't matter if the entire product is still there when you return it because its digital, you consumed part of the product itself by the very act of using it. Thats why is can be compared to physical examples. If you can't get a refund, it means you unlocked some of the new races (in other words, you did the questlines and experienced PAID FOR CONTENT that -CAN'T- be returned)

    What if all I really cared about with the pre-purchase was seeing the new races in the customizer and the quest lines, and then decide I want to return it? You can't tell the difference between someone trying to scam, and someone who suddenly decided they didn't like it after all. Hence why there is CLEARLY marked guidelines that should be read and followed BEFORE purchase to ensure YOU don't get screwed out of $60.

    It costs blizzard time and money to have CMs/GMs go through accounts and lock/downgrade everyone manually + locking characters and whatever, not to mention just the action of returning something digitally costs them money to process the payment/refund. There absolutely is a "restocking fee" in that sense.

    Literally 100% of this is prevented by people having higher than 6th grade reading comprehension and reasoning.

  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Why does there need to be a guarantee. On the scale of millions of players, Blizzard knows that many of them will constantly come and go. People quit and return to wow all the time.

    I'm really not sure what you're getting at here.
    So you are trying to say A person who pre purchase a game , plays a game for sometime then approach blizz for refund(reasons :- didn't like game or whatever) and the player should get back full refund.
    Why ? The player has played some game , sure their is no quality degradation due to product use but if they go by this way literally blizz will make no money out of pre purchase.THis system can be abused very easily , a player will pre purchase a game play it for 1 day will get full refund , another player will do same thing and so on. By the way when u use a product which is not free u are supposed to plays for the service/entertainment provided by the product(physical or digital) so player shouldn't get full refund.

  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    Reading comprehension, that is all.

    Literally no one who knows how to read and understand what they read has had a problem with refunds. Stupid people shouldn't have their hands held, maybe next time they'll try to understand what they're doing before doing it. Good life lesson all and all, for only $60.
    Does the fact that people are making poor decisions absolve Blizzard from any and all criticism, or possibility of improving their product and policies?




    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    A good is a good, digital or physical. You bought something and used part of it and then want to return it, full stop. It doesn't matter if the entire product is still there when you return it because its digital, you consumed part of the product itself by the very act of using it. Thats why is can be compared to physical examples. If you can't get a refund, it means you unlocked some of the new races (in other words, you did the questlines and experienced PAID FOR CONTENT that -CAN'T- be returned)
    Read the later posts on the differences between a physical and digital product. They are absolutely not the same.

    But here's a recap: You consumed and experienced MAYBE 1% of BfA's total content. There's no reason why Blizzard couldn't lock access to the allied race content and pro-rate a refund based on what you DID consume.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    What if all I really cared about with the pre-purchase was seeing the new races in the customizer and the quest lines, and then decide I want to return it? You can't tell the difference between someone trying to scam, and someone who suddenly decided they didn't like it after all. Hence why there is CLEARLY marked guidelines that should be read and followed BEFORE purchase to ensure YOU don't get screwed out of $60.
    Blizzard tracks behavior on the forums for players, flagging them for multiple offenses and handing out progressively more harsh penalties. They limit the number of times and how often you can activate a character or account restore for compromised accounts. Why is this different? They could just as easily track how often refund attempts are made.

    Acti-Blizz is a multi-billion dollar corporation. I fail to believe they lack the capability to do this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    It costs blizzard time and money to have CMs/GMs go through accounts and lock/downgrade everyone manually + locking characters and whatever, not to mention just the action of returning something digitally costs them money to process the payment/refund. There absolutely is a "restocking fee" in that sense.
    And those CSRs and GMs are going to be there regardless of the nature of the customer's problem. This just adds another checkbox, assuming the refund process isn't automated(which I point to Steam's refund process as a concrete example of that possibility).

    Also, there is a known fee involved with a CHARGEBACK, but I'm not so sure about there being a transaction fee for a simple refund. I would like someone with more knowledge to cite some sources on this before I concede that point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pyro989898 View Post
    So you are trying to say A person who pre purchase a game , plays a game for sometime then approach blizz for refund(reasons :- didn't like game or whatever) and the player should get back full refund.
    Why ? The player has played some game , sure their is no quality degradation due to product use but if they go by this way literally blizz will make no money out of pre purchase.THis system can be abused very easily , a player will pre purchase a game play it for 1 day will get full refund , another player will do same thing and so on. By the way when u use a product which is not free u are supposed to plays for the service/entertainment provided by the product(physical or digital) so player shouldn't get full refund.
    I didn't actually say that. In fact, if you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I specifically and repeatedly mentioned a pro-rated refund based on what they DID consume.

    I've also repeatedly mentioned the example of Steam's refund system, which is not only automated, but allows the person to play up to 2 hours and still get a FULL refund with NO questions asked. Does Blizzard's system need to perfectly mirror this? Obviously not, since there are some pretty different conditions between Steam(a market service for games) and WoW(a subscription service for a single game).
    Fastest proven leveling up methods: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post49085801

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Does the fact that people are making poor decisions absolve Blizzard from any and all criticism, or possibility of improving their product and policies?






    Read the later posts on the differences between a physical and digital product. They are absolutely not the same.

    But here's a recap: You consumed and experienced MAYBE 1% of BfA's total content. There's no reason why Blizzard couldn't lock access to the allied race content and pro-rate a refund based on what you DID consume.




    Blizzard tracks behavior on the forums for players, flagging them for multiple offenses and handing out progressively more harsh penalties. They limit the number of times and how often you can activate a character or account restore for compromised accounts. Why is this different? They could just as easily track how often refund attempts are made.

    Acti-Blizz is a multi-billion dollar corporation. I fail to believe they lack the capability to do this.




    And those CSRs and GMs are going to be there regardless of the nature of the customer's problem. This just adds another checkbox, assuming the refund process isn't automated(which I point to Steam's refund process as a concrete example of that possibility).

    Also, there is a known fee involved with a CHARGEBACK, but I'm not so sure about there being a transaction fee for a simple refund. I would like someone with more knowledge to cite some sources on this before I concede that point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I didn't actually say that. In fact, if you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I specifically and repeatedly mentioned a pro-rated refund based on what they DID consume.

    I've also repeatedly mentioned the example of Steam's refund system, which is not only automated, but allows the person to play up to 2 hours and still get a FULL refund with NO questions asked. Does Blizzard's system need to perfectly mirror this? Obviously not, since there are some pretty different conditions between Steam(a market service for games) and WoW(a subscription service for a single game).
    So u are saying about pro-rated refund . Pro-rated refund works very well in case of newspaper/magazine subscription cancellation . You used service for 6 month out of 1 year. so 50% refund simple.
    But in case of a game as such WOW it is very difficult to apply pro rate refund system. Issue i see is :-
    1.what is the life of a product. who know's BFA could be blizz last expansion(may be company go bust or no interest in developing wow anymore ... )
    2.what is the play time, some play 12 hr/day, some 3hr/day , some 3hr/week.
    3.Wow is a product that tries to fulfill needs of various segments of player. Each segment will see the value of features present in wow in different manner.
    from the point of view of "what they DID consume" suppose some player used character boost , some will say character boost cost in their opinion is 10$, some will say 20$, some will say 2$. and blizz has set the rule that if u used character boost 40$(price for character boost in-shop is 60$) will not be refunded , some guy will start a post complaining about it . Some guy played allied race for 1 hr , and blizz states to player that he/she will get 20$ , well 40$ for 1 hr of game play or even 20$ for 1 hr game play , players will definitely start complaining about it . Some people have bought BFA , because wow is their life , apart from wow their in nothing important for them to do. Unlike newspapers BFA doesn't come in fixed and equal number of installment throughout the year.
    My point is their is too much subjective view about the price of different feature provided in a game like wow. I don't give any importance to any micro holiday event ,timewalking , transmong, will quest only as way to level character. But their are many player base who play wow for quest , some for transmong, some for RP features and so on .Even if blizz choose to do it , it will only starts chaos. Hence a simple rule ,want full refund , don't use 2 this feature and ur money will be returned criteria is simple and hassle free.

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by pyro989898 View Post
    But in case of a game as such WOW it is very difficult to apply pro rate refund system. Issue i see is :

    1.what is the life of a product. who know's BFA could be blizz last expansion(may be company go bust or no interest in developing wow anymore ... )


    Absolutely irrelevant to a case of pre-purchasing. We are not discussing the subscription fee once BfA becomes fully accessible, only the paid access to a very specific part of the game's content(BfA) during the pre-purchase window before launch. And besides which, even if BfA is the last expansion, access to it would remain for many years.

    2.what is the play time, some play 12 hr/day, some 3hr/day , some 3hr/week.

    Again, irrelevant. How much a person uses a product has no impact on the set price of the original sale. It would be like arguing that I should have to pay more for my car than the next guy because I drive more miles. Even if this was relevant, it would be covered under the subscription fee, which is not being disputed.



    Quote Originally Posted by pyro989898 View Post
    3.Wow is a product that tries to fulfill needs of various segments of player. Each segment will see the value of features present in wow in different manner.

    from the point of view of "what they DID consume" suppose some player used character boost , some will say character boost cost in their opinion is 10$, some will say 20$, some will say 2$. and blizz has set the rule that if u used character boost 40$(price for character boost in-shop is 60$) will not be refunded , some guy will start a post complaining about it . Some guy played allied race for 1 hr , and blizz states to player that he/she will get 20$ , well 40$ for 1 hr of game play or even 20$ for 1 hr game play , players will definitely start complaining about it .
    The value of the character boost is largely irrelevant when Blizzard could simply lock the character in question at the time of the refund. At the same time, they would lock access to any other characters made using an allied race, and lock access to any quests/scenarios involved with allied races(BfA content).

    What that leaves is what the customer did with their allied race or boosted character while they had it. But what they can use those characters on is Legion content, and not covered under any refund dispute about BfA. I suppose you could make an argument about a player who, before the pre-purchase was available, LITERALLY had no 110 characters. But then they'd also be losing access to their 110 when it was locked, so I'd call that a wash.

    But I get the point you're making: It's a pain for Blizzard to have to review each individual refund and try to determine how much of a refund to give. In this case, despite what I said earlier about pro-rating, I'd say it would probably be more cost-effective to just lock all BfA-related material and give a full refund through an automated process.

    Could that somehow be abused or exploited? Maybe? Whatever losses were incurred by such a thing would more than be made up for in good will and approval by the rest of the Playerbase. People ARE fairly reasonable about recognizing consumer-friendly practices.
    Fastest proven leveling up methods: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post49085801

  12. #432
    Scarab Lord Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    all the more reason not to pre-order
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  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post

    1.what is the life of a product. who know's BFA could be blizz last expansion(may be company go bust or no interest in developing wow anymore ... )


    Absolutely irrelevant to a case of pre-purchasing. We are not discussing the subscription fee once BfA becomes fully accessible, only the paid access to a very specific part of the game's content(BfA) during the pre-purchase window before launch. And besides which, even if BfA is the last expansion, access to it would remain for many years.

    2.what is the play time, some play 12 hr/day, some 3hr/day , some 3hr/week.

    Again, irrelevant. How much a person uses a product has no impact on the set price of the original sale. It would be like arguing that I should have to pay more for my car than the next guy because I drive more miles. Even if this was relevant, it would be covered under the subscription fee, which is not being disputed.





    The value of the character boost is largely irrelevant when Blizzard could simply lock the character in question at the time of the refund. At the same time, they would lock access to any other characters made using an allied race, and lock access to any quests/scenarios involved with allied races(BfA content).

    What that leaves is what the customer did with their allied race or boosted character while they had it. But what they can use those characters on is Legion content, and not covered under any refund dispute about BfA. I suppose you could make an argument about a player who, before the pre-purchase was available, LITERALLY had no 110 characters. But then they'd also be losing access to their 110 when it was locked, so I'd call that a wash.

    But I get the point you're making: It's a pain for Blizzard to have to review each individual refund and try to determine how much of a refund to give. In this case, despite what I said earlier about pro-rating, I'd say it would probably be more cost-effective to just lock all BfA-related material and give a full refund through an automated process.

    Could that somehow be abused or exploited? Maybe? Whatever losses were incurred by such a thing would more than be made up for in good will and approval by the rest of the Playerbase. People ARE fairly reasonable about recognizing consumer-friendly practices.
    Life of product is not irrelavant as when using pro rated refund ,determining life of a product is important . In case of pre purchase u have used some portion of game and calculating what % of product u have used life of a product is important .Allied race is feature of BFA so allied race does have a cost associated with 60$(not sure about actual pre purchase cost, as i have not pre purchased it). How do you come up with pro data refund when a newspaper subscription is cancelled ? If the value of denominator cannot be determined pro rate refund cannot be calculated

    If a person used something of a product he/she are supposed to pay for the service/entertainment provided by product unless the product is free. This is a basic rule in market.
    Suppose a person pre purchase BFA , didn't like it ,player even used boost and allied character , contacted blizz for refund , they locked the player character (pre pruchase boosted + allied character) and refunded by full money. But wait the player used a product that was not free , player liked it or not it was the risk player took, so player is obliged to pay back blizz for the service provided by blizz even if he/she like it or not(exculding extreme condition like locked account by blizz without any reason .., where blizz is at fault). So how do you calculate the % of product used ?

    Aliied race is not legion content ,it is BFA content.It is player choice what they want to do with their Allied character ,they can even do quest in MOP region with their allied raceforever and stay their forever. or play allied race when bfa releases.

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