Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Rhlor]

Oh ok that's new information if that's true and not your personal headcanon. I was going based off what we saw in BFA.

But your point about Auric is your own headcanon. He shows up as Friendly to Alliance and Red to Horde (or Neutral in Quel'danas). A neutral NPC to Horde and Friendly to Alliance doesn't mean the character is neutral themselves.

That means they tolerate the other side, while showing where their real allegiances lie (especially if one is having an expedition team named after them).

spoilers





















“Our people can’t stay in Orgrimmar forever,” Lilian replied, at last finding her tongue. Once she had sat down and unburdened herself of her pack, she appeared more at ease. Her blue eyes flashed brighter as she straightened her back and removed her leather cloak. “It’s too hot. We prefer the shadows and the damp. Perhaps in time the ruins of Lordaeron can be reclaimed and our home there restored. Things are a little less heated with the armistice, but that doesn’t mean Alliance ships are happy to see our flags at sea.”

Across from them, sharpening a knife beside the trade prince, the Darkspear troll Rokhan hissed and leaped to his feet. His tusks gleamed as readily as his dagger. “They give you trouble?”

“We took the long way ’round,” Lilian rasped. “Added a few days to our journey.”

“Better to be careful in these tense times,” Calia added softly. “Lest we cause a diplomatic incident.” Then she shrugged, weary, and removed her sun-faded blue shawl, folding it neatly. “I am sure if we were intercepted, Derek Proudmoore could intervene on our—”

“The Proudmoores can do nothing for us.”

Just when Thrall felt the thrum of nerves in the room dissipating, the young Zandalari queen was on her feet, icily rigid. Talanji slashed her hand through the air, her many golden piercings twinkling softly as she did, her tall, jewel-encrusted headdress casting a looming shadow that reached across the hold and flickered in the firelight.

Leather squeaked and iron jangled as the murmurs and shifting began. Behind him, Thrall heard his page, Zekhan, blow out a long breath.

“The Horde could not stop the attack on Zandalar, a failure I took in stride, believing that when we had recovered, we could take the fight to the Alliance, to the Proudmoores,” Talanji continued, her voice shaking with emotion. “Peace with the Alliance means peace with the Proudmoores, with Jaina. I was foolish to believe my people would have their revenge.”

Thrall squeezed the bridge of his nose. And it had all been going so smoothly. Perhaps he should have expected this. They were all so different, these assembled leaders, with conflicting ideas on what it meant to be part of the Horde, and no doubt their visions of the future varied as well. The tide of uneasy voices in the room began to crest.

Before he could offer something mollifying to the new queen, Lilian was quick to respond. “Derek is one of us now. You will have to accept that.”
https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Madelein.../dp/0399594124

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It made a lot of sense when this idea was first introduced (five or more years before that short story), but the blood elves have been heavily retconned since. At the time, blood elves were psycho vampire-mana elves that both Horde and Alliance would kill on sight. Blood elves were reviled and feared by all.

Later, when Blizzard decided to make blood elves a player race (instead of high elves) many of these ideas were reflected in the mana tap racial ability, blood elf paladins torturing Naru for their power, and all the wretched running around. Blizzard didn't just retcon the blood elves all at once. It was inched over through several years, and by the time ItSotS was written, these ideas had only half been removed from cannon.

But my point is that such explicit notion -the Quel'lithien being expelled of QT for refusing to partake on mana siphoning- only existed on ItSotS, which itself was written post BC, so the whole idea of of mana siphoning being so reviled ethically was fanon -because pre BC it was always also linked to downright fel siphoning-

Do indeed that's the issue, by the time ItSotS codified it, it already made it a highly contextual situation that only applied for the Quel'lithien and really, the idea as a whole that High Elves looked mana siphoning as a whole as morally reprehensibly was always more fan interpretation than anything solid previous to that.

That's the thing, it was always fanon, and even when ItSotS further contextualized it, people still, to this day, run with that.

[Vaedan]

They oppose alleria because she almost destroyed the sunwell! which is the most sacred thing for the elves of quelthalas!

One last time, we have absolutely zero evidence that Allerian elves have any bad relations towards Alleria because of that Sunwell accident... it's purely assumption on your part, not backed up by any canon information from the game, so stop taking it as granted. It's not. It's just a theory at best, and not really convincing theory.

Another thing is, that while elves of Allerian stronghold expressed homesickness, they also expressed that they are not going back home because of the direction Silvermoon government has taken. That should be enough for you to consider their loyalities.

You should also think about horde aligned High Elves. Once high elf decide to go red team, he will be most likely asked to take on identity of a blood elf, since it's pretty important for sin'dorei society, and being high elf means being oblivious to hardship they had to endure in order to survive. Being called high elf is not a good thing among sin'dorei. You should know that...

Also, Auric was seen in Quel'thalas ONLY during Quel'dalar questline. He is not been shown here any later. He was not here during Cataclysm, not even during MoP, not at any time later. We've seen Alleria's visit to Sunwell, and guess what, Auric was not present. He is in fact not citizen of Silvermoon. What's worth mentioning, while things get bad during that quest and Quel'delar rejects Lor'themar, Rommanth instantly accuses Auric from treachery, showing us what does they think about him. He is merely allowed at Sunwell, they are not being friendly towards him.

You have been also shown numerous sources from devs of the game stating they are not going to change status of existing NPCs or doing brand new NPCs. All you they'll do is to add new customizations to "no name" NPCs which wanders the cities, like town guards, etc.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I think just the fact that the blood elves joined the Horde, with it's former Scourge, orcs and trolls, should have been ample ground to build the division from (I like to think that's the main reason for a lot of non-Quel'Lithien elves to lean Alliance).

Yeah, I've seen plenty of people using the mana-siphoning schtick to paint the Quel'dorei as superior in this thread. The reality is, though, that there's plenty of elves who are complete arseholes who have both green and blue eyes.

Most certainly, the need to be "the good elf" is ridonkulously common on either side -like when BE stalwarts claim HE's are nothing but traitors that abandoned their people when the kingdom needed it- And IMO the situation has a lot more nuance than that for either side, and mostly arises from the 2nd War, where there was a clear ideological difference between those elves that fought alongside the alliance, and those that mostly remained on Quel'thalas.

I think there's a clear correlation between isolationist and diasporic elves and what alliance they are on now, related to both elves that fought the second war, and elves that were already settled on human kingdoms beforehand. Even while Kael'thas and many Dalaran elves returned to QT, it's evident that a lot remained on the city, and still do to this day.

It's no coincidence that basically most alliance aligned HE's currently come from groups that were simply not living in QT at the time of its fall. Quel'danil seems to have been secluded for a long time, the current Dalarani HE pop including Vereesa, the alliance expedition HE's in Outland and all the scattered HE's on human settlements. There's quite possibly only one group that had alliance sympathies and remained on QT -Umbric's Scholars- and when the time arose he switched back rather quickly.

[DeicideUH]

Also when you do Quel'delar questline as the Alliance, Auric has some snarky remark against Lorthemar. Something about him being foolish for trying to claim Quel'delar for himself, that the blade itself chooses its wielder.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Ques...lar_(Alliance)

It's also interesting that Rommath and the guards immediately call Auric a traitor. So much trust and harmony there!

[Thalassian Bob]

Most certainly, the need to be "the good elf" is ridonkulously common on either side -like when BE stalwarts claim HE's are nothing but traitors that abandoned their people when the kingdom needed it- And IMO the situation has a lot more nuance than that for either side, and mostly arises from the 2nd War, where there was a clear ideological difference between those elves that fought alongside the alliance, and those that mostly remained on Quel'thalas.

I think there's a clear correlation between isolationist and diasporic elves and what alliance they are on now, related to both elves that fought the second war, and elves that were already settled on human kingdoms beforehand. Even while Kael'thas and many Dalaran elves returned to QT, it's evident that a lot remained on the city, and still do to this day.

It's no coincidence that basically most alliance aligned HE's currently come from groups that were simply not living in QT at the time of its fall. Quel'danil seems to have been secluded for a long time, the current Dalarani HE pop including Vereesa, the alliance expedition HE's in Outland and all the scattered HE's on human settlements. There's quite possibly only one group that had alliance sympathies and remained on QT -Umbric's Scholars- and when the time arose he switched back rather quickly.

Yeah, all good points.

I think a philosophical split after the Second War is a far more interesting basis for the schism.

It's also worth considering that with how old Dalaran is and how long the high elves have had ties with it, it's quite possible that for several generations of high elves, Dalaran is all they have ever known. Kind of like with Americans with European ancestry who have been in the 'New World' for several generations. Sure, they might be Europeans genetically, but America is the land they know and call home. Quel'dorei like that are far more likely to stay with the Kirin Tor, even after the attempt to lynch Kael'thas in the city. An Anglo-American is probably not gonna suddenly become British if, through some diplomatic disaster, Prince Charles is put on death row in the United States.

[Rhlor]

But my point is that such explicit notion -the Quel'lithien being expelled of QT for refusing to partake on mana siphoning- only existed on ItSotS, which itself was written post BC, so the whole idea of of mana siphoning being so reviled ethically was fanon -because pre BC it was always also linked to downright fel siphoning-

Do indeed that's the issue, by the time ItSotS codified it, it already made it a highly contextual situation that only applied for the Quel'lithien and really, the idea as a whole that High Elves looked mana siphoning as a whole as morally reprehensibly was always more fan interpretation than anything solid previous to that.

That's the thing, it was always fanon, and even when ItSotS further contextualized it, people still, to this day, run with that.

the blood elves of quel'thalas never fel siphoning. the encyclopedia of warcraft says they always fed on mana wyrm

[Ardenaso]

was there any High Elf in Quel'thalas during the time of Scourging that remained in the Alliance? (Umbric and Void Elves not included), on the other way around there's Kael'thas and Rommath. Aethas is most likely in his teens that time as he was ignorant of the Garithossing

the mystery of "where was Vereesa and the would-be Sunreavers and Silver Covenant at the time of Garithossing" is still unexplained

I don't think the post-Second War schism is a good basis for the Alliance loyal High Elf or Blood Elf, there's Mehlar Dawnblade, and once again Kael'thas and Rommath

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yeah, all good points.

I think a philosophical split after the Second War is a far more interesting basis for the schism.

It's also worth considering that with how old Dalaran is and how long the high elves have had ties with it, it's quite possible that for several generations of high elves, Dalaran is all they have ever known. Kind of like with Americans with European ancestry who have been in the 'New World' for several generations. Sure, they might be Europeans genetically, but America is the land they know and call home. Quel'dorei like that are far more likely to stay with the Kirin Tor, even after the attempt to lynch Kael'thas in the city. An Anglo-American is probably not gonna suddenly become British if, through some diplomatic disaster, Prince Charles is put on death row in the United States.

I actually think of that a lot tbh. It's entirely possible many young elves only knew Dalaran by reason of being born there, I also think it would have been a rite of passage to go to Quel'thalas at a point in their lives, to know "the homeland". Maybe some would still chose to remain in Dalaran, maybe some would re-settle to QT. Nonetheless, it's highly unlikely that in 3k years of living in the city there weren't elven births in the city, so then it truly becomes the question of what would these elves see as their true home? Dalaran or Quel'thalas?

And I mean, the fact that ultimately like 10% of the remaining thalassians didn't become Blood Elves, it could certainly imply this was the case for a number of them, now represented by the neutral and SC population of Dalaran.

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the blood elves of quel'thalas never fel siphoning. the encyclopedia of warcraft says they always fed on mana wyrm

Way to miss the point.

[Rhlor]

One last time, we have absolutely zero evidence that Allerian elves have any bad relations towards Alleria because of that Sunwell accident... it's purely assumption on your part, not backed up by any canon information from the game, so stop taking it as granted. It's not. It's just a theory at best, and not really convincing theory.

Another thing is, that while elves of Allerian stronghold expressed homesickness, they also expressed that they are not going back home because of the direction Silvermoon government has taken. That should be enough for you to consider their loyalities.

You should also think about horde aligned High Elves. Once high elf decide to go red team, he will be most likely asked to take on identity of a blood elf, since it's pretty important for sin'dorei society, and being high elf means being oblivious to hardship they had to endure in order to survive. Being called high elf is not a good thing among sin'dorei. You should know that...

Also, Auric was seen in Quel'thalas ONLY during Quel'dalar questline. He is not been shown here any later. He was not here during Cataclysm, not even during MoP, not at any time later. We've seen Alleria's visit to Sunwell, and guess what, Auric was not present. He is in fact not citizen of Silvermoon. What's worth mentioning, while things get bad during that quest and Quel'delar rejects Lor'themar, Rommanth instantly accuses Auric from treachery, showing us what does they think about him. He is merely allowed at Sunwell, they are not being friendly towards him.

You have been also shown numerous sources from devs of the game stating they are not going to change status of existing NPCs or doing brand new NPCs. All you they'll do is to add new customizations to "no name" NPCs which wanders the cities, like town guards, etc.

elves from allerian stronghold had a problem with blood elves loyal to kael and whenever they speak they do so in reference to them!

[elbleuet]

elves from allerian stronghold had a problem with blood elves loyal to kael and whenever they speak they do so in reference to them!

Given they're hostile to the Horde too even after the reopening of the Dark Portal, they seem to have a problem with you too.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

was there any High Elf in Quel'thalas during the time of Scourging that remained in the Alliance? (Umbric and Void Elves not included), on the other way around there's Kael'thas and Rommath. Aethas is most likely in his teens that time as he was ignorant of the Garithossing

the mystery of "where was Vereesa and the would-be Sunreavers and Silver Covenant at the time of Garithossing" is still unexplained

I don't think it's a mystery at all.

Chronicles tells us that most of the Dalaran citizenry was evacuated before the city fell during the Third War. Lo and Behold, come Wrath, we find out that a considerable part of the city is High Elves, including Vereesa and her alliance stallwart group. I think the implication is simple; Dalaran's population is mostly the same it was before the Third War, and only a section of the elves of it under Kael'thas returned to Quel'thalas and became Blood Elves.

I think the only thing that remains vague is whether the Sunreavers as a whole are elves that went with Kael, became blood elves, and then came back, or if they could possibly be elves that remained as Dalaran population since the Third War and only recently rejoined. All we truly have as any sort of evidence is that most Sunreavers have green eyes, so they would have returned to Quel'thalas at one point. Still, I think it's entirely likely that some Dalarani elves joined the Blood Elves at the dawn of Wotlk.

I don't think the post-Second War schism is a good basis for the Alliance loyal High Elf or Blood Elf, there's Mehlar Dawnblade, and once again Kael'thas and Rommath

That's literally just 3 elves tho, contrasted the whole of the high elves we see as members of the alliance, and as neutral Kirin Tor.

2 of those are Elves that were in Dalaran and returned to Quel'thalas and become blood elves -and one that was 100% just studying there since he was the prince-, which is also the most likely origin of Sunreavers. And the third one is as far as we know the only confirmed elf that lived in human lands and returned to Quel'thalas outside that, and still I think it makes him a good representation of High Elves returning to QT post fall/during rebuilding.

Of course a broad ideological separation would not account for every elf, nor it should. The point is that High Elves that were diasporic were far more likely to remain on the alliance, not that ALL diasporic elves remained on the alliance. Of course some of them would return to the homeland as per the 3 you point out.

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elves from allerian stronghold had a problem with blood elves loyal to kael and whenever they speak they do so in reference to them!

They are literally still part of the alliance, tagged as alliance members. Dear lord.

[Rhlor]

I actually think of that a lot tbh. It's entirely possible many young elves only knew Dalaran by reason of being born there, I also think it would have been a rite of passage to go to Quel'thalas at a point in their lives, to know "the homeland". Maybe some would still chose to remain in Dalaran, maybe some would re-settle to QT. Nonetheless, it's highly unlikely that in 3k years of living in the city there weren't elven births in the city, so then it truly becomes the question of what would these elves see as their true home? Dalaran or Quel'thalas?

And I mean, the fact that ultimately like 10% of the remaining thalassians didn't become Blood Elves, it could certainly imply this was the case for a number of them, now represented by the neutral and SC population of Dalaran.

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Way to miss the point.

I think there are different reasons and not one specifically.
Hawkspear and his followers first had a problem with eating mana wyrm and later had a conflict with nathanos who at that time was an ally of quelthalas, Vereesa I think she must have been angry that quelthalas joined the horde because the orcs killed her brother and the high elves of allerian stronghold did not have a conflict with the blood elves of quelthalas had a problem with kael and his followers

[Varodoc]

Auric and his people should just join the void elves and be done with it. Their little band is literally called "Allerian", very clearly they are hardcore Alleria fanboys.

[Rhlor]

I don't think it's a mystery at all.

Chronicles tells us that most of the Dalaran citizenry was evacuated before the city fell during the Third War. Lo and Behold, come Wrath, we find out that a considerable part of the city is High Elves, including Vereesa and her alliance stallwart group. I think the implication is simple; Dalaran's population is mostly the same it was before the Third War, and only a section of the elves of it under Kael'thas returned to Quel'thalas and became Blood Elves.

I think the only thing that remains vague is whether the Sunreavers as a whole are elves that went with Kael, became blood elves, and then came back, or if they could possibly be elves that remained as Dalaran population since the Third War and only recently rejoined. All we truly have as any sort of evidence is that most Sunreavers have green eyes, so they would have returned to Quel'thalas at one point. Still, I think it's entirely likely that some Dalarani elves joined the Blood Elves at the dawn of Wotlk.




That's literally just 3 elves tho, contrasted the whole of the high elves we see as members of the alliance, and as neutral Kirin Tor.

2 of those are Elves that were in Dalaran and returned to Quel'thalas and become blood elves -and one that was 100% just studying there since he was the prince-, which is also the most likely origin of Sunreavers. And the third one is as far as we know the only confirmed elf that lived in human lands and returned to Quel'thalas outside that, and still I think it makes him a good representation of High Elves returning to QT post fall/during rebuilding.

Of course a broad ideological separation would not account for every elf, nor it should. The point is that High Elves that were diasporic were far more likely to remain on the alliance, not that ALL diasporic elves remained on the alliance. Of course some of them would return to the homeland as per the 3 you point out.

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They are literally still part of the alliance, tagged as alliance members. Dear lord.

Yes, I know, but because they believed that the high elves of Quelthalas were also followers of Kael.
Quotes

The opening of the Dark Portal brought news of my people's fate. In a way, my exile shielded me from sharing in their downfall, but to see the Farstriders throw their lot in with Kael'thas...

I never imagined my one-time brethren capable of such a thing.

The homecoming I once dreamt of will never happen. This forest is the only home I have left.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Theloria_Shadecloak

but now everyone knows that the blood elves of quelthalas are not the same group as kael's followers

Ros'eleth works alongside the blood elves as a member of Unseen Path

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Auric and his people should just join the void elves and be done with it. Their little band is literally called "Allerian", very clearly they are hardcore Alleria fanboys.

allerian stronghold was a settlement built before the destruction of draenor.

[Varodoc]

Yes, I know, but because they believed that the high elves of Quelthalas were also followers of Kael.
Quotes

The opening of the Dark Portal brought news of my people's fate. In a way, my exile shielded me from sharing in their downfall, but to see the Farstriders throw their lot in with Kael'thas...

I never imagined my one-time brethren capable of such a thing.

The homecoming I once dreamt of will never happen. This forest is the only home I have left.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Theloria_Shadecloak

but now everyone knows that the blood elves of quelthalas are not the same group as kael's followers

Ros'eleth works alongside the blood elves as a member of Unseen Path

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allerian stronghold was a settlement built before the destruction of draenor.

Ok... thanks for the trivia?

[Ardenaso]

I don't think it's a mystery at all.

Chronicles tells us that most of the Dalaran citizenry was evacuated before the city fell during the Third War. Lo and Behold, come Wrath, we find out that a considerable part of the city is High Elves, including Vereesa and her alliance stallwart group. I think the implication is simple; Dalaran's population is mostly the same it was before the Third War, and only a section of the elves of it under Kael'thas returned to Quel'thalas and became Blood Elves.

I think the only thing that remains vague is whether the Sunreavers as a whole are elves that went with Kael, became blood elves, and then came back, or if they could possibly be elves that remained as Dalaran population since the Third War and only recently rejoined. All we truly have as any sort of evidence is that most Sunreavers have green eyes, so they would have returned to Quel'thalas at one point. Still, I think it's entirely likely that some Dalarani elves joined the Blood Elves at the dawn of Wotlk.

perhaps they were in Theramore during the time of Frozen Throne, I guess. Now begs the question why would the Silver Covenant have to go through their self-brought trouble of fighting for the Alliance and fighting their Blood Elf kin when they could just be neutral like Vereesa's own husband, and pre-MOP Jaina and just chill around in Dalaran and the Argent Crusade outposts

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I can't believe I myself have to question the High Elves' actual ulterior motives when not so long ago I was an Alliance fanboy going "the Blood Elves today are the same cowards who hid in Quel'thalas during the Second War and when Lordaeron was being Scourged"

[Rhlor]

perhaps they were in Theramore during the time of Frozen Throne, I guess. Now begs the question why would the Silver Covenant have to go through their self-brought trouble of fighting for the Alliance and fighting their Blood Elf kin when they could just be neutral like Vereesa's own husband, and pre-MOP Jaina and just chill around in Dalaran and the Argent Crusade outposts

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I can't believe I myself have to question the High Elves' actual ulterior motives when not so long ago I was an Alliance fanboy going "the Blood Elves today are the same cowards who hid in Quel'thalas during the Second War and when Lordaeron was being Scourged"

during the second war the elves of quelthalas sent aid against the horde until their final defeat, but instead the high elves alone had to fight against the forest trolls

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I think there are different reasons and not one specifically.
Hawkspear and his followers first had a problem with eating mana wyrm and later had a conflict with nathanos who at that time was an ally of quelthalas, Vereesa I think she must have been angry that quelthalas joined the horde because the orcs killed her brother and the high elves of allerian stronghold did not have a conflict with the blood elves of quelthalas had a problem with kael and his followers

Indeed, that's why I think the fanon of "High Elves are against mana syphoning ethically and thus oppose Blood Elves" is reductive and innacurate. That's the whole point, that we already have more nuanced reasons why some High Elves remained on the alliance rather than one single ethical issue.

I think a lot of High Elves had the same attitude of Vereesa, other already just had made the Alliance their home, etc, again, the point is that the ethics of mana siphoning as part of the schism is a) unnecessary and b) fanon

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Auric and his people should just join the void elves and be done with it. Their little band is literally called "Allerian", very clearly they are hardcore Alleria fanboys.

I have always aid VE's would have been made far more sense as Alleria's stalwarts on Outland. They all clearly respect her. I still think they would join her rn.

Auric himself I really don't know tho, because pretty much what defines his character is to allow all High Elves to visit the Sunwell, so I do think he would try to remain as neutral as possible, and joining a revolutionary entity that seeks to subvert BElven power would be a big no.

[Ardenaso]

That's literally just 3 elves tho, contrasted the whole of the high elves we see as members of the alliance, and as neutral Kirin Tor.

2 of those are Elves that were in Dalaran and returned to Quel'thalas and become blood elves -and one that was 100% just studying there since he was the prince-, which is also the most likely origin of Sunreavers. And the third one is as far as we know the only confirmed elf that lived in human lands and returned to Quel'thalas outside that, and still I think it makes him a good representation of High Elves returning to QT post fall/during rebuilding.

I don't think it was just Kael'thas and Rommath, surely there has to be around a hundred Magisters who came from Dalaran to arrive back at Silvermoon since everything is downscaled.

Also there's that Paladin Trainer in Orgrimmar that isn't a Blood Knight, so he may have been like Mehlar; also with the Blood/High Elf Paladins/Priests in the Argent Dawn/Crusade that at least some of them should consider going back to Quel'thalas

but yeah I guess I also have to agree with this one ↓

Of course a broad ideological separation would not account for every elf, nor it should. The point is that High Elves that were diasporic were far more likely to remain on the alliance, not that ALL diasporic elves remained on the alliance. Of course some of them would return to the homeland as per the 3 you point out.