Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ithekro]

Zandalari Paladins is pretty much a given at this point. It makes sense that to gain the trolls trust and entrance into the Horde, the "Adventurer" will help them regain the Light of Rezan.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

People are anti for different reasons, some don't like the idea of a race that looks very very similar to Blood Elves, some believe there is a lore discrepancy (There isn't.) People have their reasons, and dumbing down the entire anti-crowd to one idea/belief does them no service.

The fact we already have a Blood Elf varient(See Void Elves) shows they could of done High Elves but didn't. Hell if they wanted to, they could of used some Arcane magic onto their body to show difference.


OT: The argument that the Horde's faction identity has had blood Elves in the Horde since BC well....you're right except they don't mesh too well in the Horde, hence the backlash of sorts in BC. They'd be better off in Alliance but that time passed.

[Shinkishi]

OT: The argument that the Horde's faction identity has had blood Elves in the Horde since BC well....you're right except they don't mesh too well in the Horde, hence the backlash of sorts in BC. They'd be better off in Alliance but that time passed.

To build off of this, I'm wondering something. For people that don't want high elves on the Alliance because they believe it will ruin the "faction identity" of the Horde, what does this mean exactly? Is it just race, lore, model, all of those things? What is faction identity to you?

[Ithekro]

Well how about advocate to have one of your own models used

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If one can find a lore reason for the Horde to have said model they can have them. No skin off my faction if we get a group that decides to join the Horde. Just as long as it is a believable reason. Remember, before the Third War, the Humans and Forsaken had the same story. Both were humans. In fact if you go back to the Second War, you could say that Humans, Kul'Tirans, Gilnaens, and Forseken, all had the same story (more or less). They were all the "Humans".

But Humans spend a lot of time killing other humans in the game. Orcs only slightly less on killing orcs until WoD. Trolls will be killing a lot of trolls, dwarves will be killing a lot of dwarves. So take any particular rebellious or criminal faction...and hand them over to the other side. And then you have playable humans on the Horde, or playable orcs on the Alliance. It is not that hard really. The biggest problem is to come up for a reason for the Horde or Alliance to trust these sorts of groups at all, and for these groups to have a reason to throw their lot in with a large political power to fight their enemies. Most of these sorts of groups are considered "evil" in game, and some of them actually are evil. Others have legitimate grievances against their usual faction.

Lets come up with something random. AU Draenor. The Orcs are coming back, but supposedly it has been some 30 years or more since we players left out Garrisons behind. In that time, what has happened to the Draenei on the planet? Did they ally with the orcs since Valen's death? They might harbor some issues, but the Draenei did wish to coexist with the orcs. So could Yrel's forces be convinced to join the Horde? If someone can spin the tale to paint the Alliance in a bad light due to Azerite, than yes, she could be brought in as an avenging angel for the Horde. Is it likely? No. Not unless their is a twist in the story that makes Sylvanas not look like the Lich Queen and the Horde is on the path to destruction. But that is but one option for playable Draenei in the Horde...and not even being former Burning Legion members, which is the usual suggestion.

Another would be for Defais Brotherhod in Westfall gaining enough military and political support, via the Horde, to carve out a tiny nation on Stormwind's flank. Humans for the Horde.

Or Frostborn Dwarves decide their former king, Muradin, has been gone too long, and get in comfy with the Taunka and together join the Horde, because the Alliance abandoned them. Dwarves in the Horde.

[Jokubas]

For year after year we patiently waited for playable High Elves, but then we finally got a system tailor made for these kinds of races... and they gave us almost the complete opposite of what we wanted as a 'compromise'.

I think this is one of the things that bothered me the most about the announcement. I have wanted high elves since we didn't know all of the launch races, but after blood elves were added, I accepted that the way playable races were added would not make high elves a good choice. And then the Allied Race system is revealed, and it seems like it was designed specifically to address the issues with high elves.

People might already take it for granted, but before the Allied Race system, we expected things like mag'har orcs or Dark Iron dwarves to really just be new customization options for existing races. Most people expected mag'har to literally just be a single new skin color choice for orcs. Most of the Allied Races we have so far, are ones that people had no problem expecting in the existing systems.

Allied Races, however, allow the possibility for a race that doesn't have many changes, and doesn't have a parent race, to just be added as part of a group, and not need to be super special. Even the fact that Blizzard chose Allied Races instead of Sub-Races seemed tailored to high elves, since one of the biggest questions about high elves even in sub-race discussions was "what race would they be considered a sub-race of?"

The Allied Race system addressed concerns about new race and sub-race discussions that didn't matter to anything people wanted except high elves.

And then the system is announced alongside "Void Elves".

It's funny that the current endless threads started with my "High elves, Void elves and what could have been" thread. It was my last lament as I had given up hope, but it sparked the void elf discussion threads, in which a lot of people were voicing their desires and fears about void elves.

I never knew about that thread, but I appreciate it. It's kinda weird that the Allied Race system felt like the biggest hope, while simultaneously launching with Void Elves, which felt like the ultimate crushing of hope.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back is a good way to put it, though.

I didn't realize how many other people wanted high elves, and I'm used to people preemptively compromising, so I was assuming most people would be appeased by Void Elves and I'd be fighting alone. In the end though, Void Elves might end up being the biggest boon to high elf fans after all, because they've become a symbol. People who thought they were alone now have something to point to as an example of what they didn't want, that they really do care about high elves, and high elves specifically, not just some vague elf concept that can be compromised on.

[seleri]

Neat, so then you'd be fine with playable Titans, Old Gods, Sha, and Void Lords? Afterall lore is a weak arguing point.

Just because something is in the game, does not mean it should be playable.

I don't think those are a great comparison to something like high elves and I personally wouldn't add those to the game, but if Blizzard wants to come up with new lore to justify those being playable and most importantly give them a model that works as a playable race then sure, I wouldn't whine about it.

Pandaren were an exception that they weren't happy with. Void elves were the high elf compromise. Nightborne not only have a thinner silhouette than night elves, but were given to the Horde in return for the Alliance getting void elves.

You say that the silhouette argument is weak, but it's not just about silhouettes. It's also about theme and feel. That's why so many high elf fans aren't happy with void elves. Nightborne don't have access to the night elves' most iconic class because they have different themes; it's the same thing. They were willing to sacrifice the silhouette for high elf fans, but took away the theme and feel in return. It's not a copy in the way that high elves would be. That's not new information though, it just bears repeating because people keep trying to discredit longstanding design philosophies with the same weak evidence. You're welcome to speculate that their ideas have changed, but your argument here doesn't prove anything.

Is there a source for Horde getting nightborne because Alliance got void elves? I assume, if anything, it was the other way around since void elves seem to have been made up at the last minute. Also, as far as I'm aware, Ghostcrawler was the only one that ever said anything about not being happy with how pandaren turned out.

As for a theme, I'm sure Blizzard could differentiate them enough just as much as they did nightborne to night elves. These days blood elves seem to be leaning very heavily into the Light elves theme, so they could make high elves lean into the wilderness/ranger theme. Assuming they even wanted to make them a full fledged race, that is.

Again, I personally don't care much one way or the other if they ever become playable. I just think they will eventually in some form, even if it isn't as an actual race.

[FlubberPuddy]

Neat, so then you'd be fine with playable Titans, Old Gods, Sha, and Void Lords? Afterall lore is a weak arguing point.

Just because something is in the game, does not mean it should be playable.

I fully expect the Anti-HE crowd to make these kinds of threads if HEs do happen

[Sorrior]

Fine you want HE then ask for Forest Trolls too then we are set

I want all the classics back. From forest trolls to high elves and ogres

[Strippling]

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If one can find a lore reason for the Horde to have said model they can have them. No skin off my faction if we get a group that decides to join the Horde. Just as long as it is a believable reason. Remember, before the Third War, the Humans and Forsaken had the same story. Both were humans. In fact if you go back to the Second War, you could say that Humans, Kul'Tirans, Gilnaens, and Forseken, all had the same story (more or less). They were all the "Humans".

But Humans spend a lot of time killing other humans in the game. Orcs only slightly less on killing orcs until WoD. Trolls will be killing a lot of trolls, dwarves will be killing a lot of dwarves. So take any particular rebellious or criminal faction...and hand them over to the other side. And then you have playable humans on the Horde, or playable orcs on the Alliance. It is not that hard really. The biggest problem is to come up for a reason for the Horde or Alliance to trust these sorts of groups at all, and for these groups to have a reason to throw their lot in with a large political power to fight their enemies. Most of these sorts of groups are considered "evil" in game, and some of them actually are evil. Others have legitimate grievances against their usual faction.

Lets come up with something random. AU Draenor. The Orcs are coming back, but supposedly it has been some 30 years or more since we players left out Garrisons behind. In that time, what has happened to the Draenei on the planet? Did they ally with the orcs since Valen's death? They might harbor some issues, but the Draenei did wish to coexist with the orcs. So could Yrel's forces be convinced to join the Horde? If someone can spin the tale to paint the Alliance in a bad light due to Azerite, than yes, she could be brought in as an avenging angel for the Horde. Is it likely? No. Not unless their is a twist in the story that makes Sylvanas not look like the Lich Queen and the Horde is on the path to destruction. But that is but one option for playable Draenei in the Horde...and not even being former Burning Legion members, which is the usual suggestion.

Another would be for Defais Brotherhod in Westfall gaining enough military and political support, via the Horde, to carve out a tiny nation on Stormwind's flank. Humans for the Horde.

Or Frostborn Dwarves decide their former king, Muradin, has been gone too long, and get in comfy with the Taunka and together join the Horde, because the Alliance abandoned them. Dwarves in the Horde.

I get where you are coming from... but have players been advocating for playable Alterac humans on the Horde (which realistically makes as much sense lore wise as HE do), or playable AU draenei or dwarfs? No not really.... because it feels like it goes against the design of the game (which is faction vs faction... or in other words faction pride).

Lore and gameplay are separate entities. Lore-wise, yes... HE are alliance. Gameplay-wise, would playable HE be practical? Not really. Why..?? Saturating both the Horde and Alliance with the same elf would detract from faction identity (a core feature of this MMO) and to a lot of people adding an almost carbon copy of BE to the Alliance would feel bland, ESPECIALLY after VE were added.

[Jastall]

The Standing lore is that there have been High Elves in Alliance since Day 1 of WoW, whether you like it or not. They've also had a presence on Alliance in all expansions sans WoD.

So yeah if you want to go by respecting the standing lore, then High Elves have promise. This shit meme of "Blood Elves are High Elves" only started when Ion said his thing, for years everyone understood what was meant by having playable High Elves before that.

Now suddenly everyone's seem to forgotten conveniently all the times they've been showcased around Alliance.

Um, no. That was said way before Ion's comment. He just added credence to the idea that High Elves are in too many ways, far too similar to Blood Elves to be a credible playable race.

Yes, the Silver Covenant was overused. Blame that one on Blizzard refusing to write anything for the Alliance that doesn't involve humans or their pet elves.

[Sigxy]

Even a Blizzard admin joined the discrod channel. Not only they are constantly blue post both the US and EU High Elf thread, now Blizz joined the Discord as well. They are listening, it's happening.



and for any that does not believe me she is the EU admin, she has a blue post in the eu helf thread you can go and check

I wouldn't say 'constant' would be the right word. '.' And no offense but I really doubt that is the same person. Knowing Blizzard, they wouldn't really go join these player-made groups with the exact same name & portrait. Only time I've personally seen it happen was when the wow forums were down and one of them made an account here on MMO-Champion and mentioning something about it.

Not to mention, if it is the legit person - you just gave people a way to contact that one straight away with that information shown. Blizzard knows better.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I get where you are coming from... but have players been advocating for playable Alterac humans on the Horde (which realistically makes as much sense lore wise as HE do), or playable AU draenei or dwarfs? No not really.... because it feels like it goes against the design of the game (which is faction vs faction... or in other words faction pride).

Lore and gameplay are separate entities. Lore-wise, yes... HE are alliance. Gameplay-wise, would playable HE be practical? Not really. Why..?? Saturating both the Horde and Alliance with the same elf would detract from faction identity (a core feature of this MMO) and to a lot of people adding an almost carbon copy of BE to the Alliance would feel bland, ESPECIALLY after VE were added.

Not the same and Humans and Orcs on opposing sides has been a core theme in Warcraft since forever. Guess where the High Elves were at one point, OPPOSING THE HORDE. Alterac Humans aren't really different, just regular humans with at best a different accent. High Elves make more sense as a race then Alterac so stop making stuff up. AU Draenei are more or less the same damn thing.

Also the core identity of the Horde was already altered when Blood Elves entered the Picture. So once again..please stop with the argument. Horde has Shal'dorei and Blood Elves, their identity isn't exactly what it used to be(I never advocated Nightborne going on Horde anyways).

[Kyphael]

It's not "we don't want you to have it." It's that we have a vision of the game in which factions remain distinct. High elves for the Alliance are one example of an addition that would erode that vision. It's not spite, it's an honest difference in opinion of what the game should be.

Lore-wise, if you played Warcraft 3, and you'll probably say comparing an RTS to the MMO is apples to oranges, but still... lore-wise, alliance had High Elves first. Not to mention we already have the Thalassian model, even if it's a f**ked up version with cow lick emo hairstyles. I'd gladly give up Nathanos' model for high elf models with markings/tattoos. I don't know you'd personally love it but many in the horde would. There's also the Pandaren already eroding that vision of faction distinction. Sure, they weren't part of the original vanilla horde, but they are now.

[Kyphael]

And pro-high elf supporter arguments are "we wan't to play the prettiest model in game! wah wah" essentially veiled in "MUH HIGH ELVES ARE BLUE EYED BLOOD ELVES... ON THE ALLIANCE". Fact of the matter is that the thalassian elf model and story has been a core part of the Horde since TBC... not the alliance. It seems that pro-high elf supporters for the most part essentially just want to be able to play a pretty normal skinned elf on the blue side and throw any reason they can muster up to try and justify it. Bro, the reality is is that thalassian elves are a CORE part and big identity to the Horde and for that reason alone there is a lot of push back from non pro-high elf supporters. To you and other pro-high elf supporters it doesn't seem like a big deal... because you want them. To others (the non-supporters), we are trying to maintain our faction identity.

Side note... I'd probably be less upset if HE were to use the human model with pointy ears added. The model shouldn't be slimmed down though, else it'd be pushing the boundaries of resembling BE too much. On top of that, I wouldn't want HE to detract from the BE or VE story development (INCLUDING stealing development time which could be used for the existing playable thalassian elves). At this current stage, I can't see where HE fit in the story. It seems like the story is going to focus more on rivalry between BE and VE (light vs void). To add HE would just seem out of place IMO.

Oh really? Is that why so many Horde purist players crap on the blood elves for becoming part of the Horde? You know how many horde players I've come across that told me they don't hang out in Silvermoon because it looks like an alliance city? The Thalassian elves have been part of Horde lore since TBC. If we're going by lore, the high elves were part of the alliance for much, much longer, dating back even further back than Warcraft 3. That pretty much debunks that argument. Not to mention Blizzard itself has dabbled with the thought of putting blood elves in the alliance even after TBC when Varian said to Jaina in-game he had been negotiating the blood elves potentially returning to the alliance.

If the compromise must be half human/half elves, sure, I'll take it, I don't mind, I'm a Tolkien fan myself aside from WoW and wouldn't mind making elves resembling that. Plus it would give Alleria's son an unique model. But Blizzard might be too lazy to design half-human elves and might find it easier to slap on markings on blood elves and call it a day.

[Ithekro]

I get where you are coming from... but have players been advocating for playable Alterac humans on the Horde (which realistically makes as much sense lore wise as HE do), or playable AU draenei or dwarfs? No not really.... because it feels like it goes against the design of the game (which is faction vs faction... or in other words faction pride).

Lore and gameplay are separate entities. Lore-wise, yes... HE are alliance. Gameplay-wise, would playable HE be practical? Not really. Why..?? Saturating both the Horde and Alliance with the same elf would detract from faction identity (a core feature of this MMO) and to a lot of people adding an almost carbon copy of BE to the Alliance would feel bland, ESPECIALLY after VE were added.

The other races aren't asked for a lot because most of them don't actually exist in the game for people to see or want to emulate. High Elves are in the game and people want to play as them. Similarly to ogres being in game and people wanting to play them, or Tuskar for that matter. If there is a species in the game that looks like it could be played, there will be people wanting to play it. With High Elves it is more so that they are an old race in Warcraft, and have been in game for a very, very log time now. And people have wanted to play them for a very, very long time now. Those that just wanted the model or race without the other strings attached went Blood Elf as soon at it appeared. But the rest that wanted specifically the High Elves that you can see that are in the Alliance, they have been holding out for a very, very long time.

I don't see a problem of with oversaturation. The if you are worried that all the elves would detract from the faction identity, well it is sort of too late for the Horde for that, given that the Horde identity is Orc, not elf, while for the Alliance it shouldn't be that much of a problem given the hoops one need to jump though to get an Allied Race, much less populate a server with them. So the Humans and Night Elves should still remain the most populous race in the Alliance, even after the High Elves are introduced. It would take time and effort of make enough High Elves to over-shadow those two, while Blood Elves are as simple as purchasing the game.

[DeicideUH]

The Allied Race system addressed concerns about new race and sub-race discussions that didn't matter to anything people wanted except high elves.

And then the system is announced alongside "Void Elves".

I couldn't believe when I saw that greyish purple elf in the trailer.

I never knew about that thread, but I appreciate it. It's kinda weird that the Allied Race system felt like the biggest hope, while simultaneously launching with Void Elves, which felt like the ultimate crushing of hope.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back is a good way to put it, though.

I didn't realize how many other people wanted high elves, and I'm used to people preemptively compromising, so I was assuming most people would be appeased by Void Elves and I'd be fighting alone. In the end though, Void Elves might end up being the biggest boon to high elf fans after all, because they've become a symbol. People who thought they were alone now have something to point to as an example of what they didn't want, that they really do care about high elves, and high elves specifically, not just some vague elf concept that can be compromised on.

Most forums were very hostile to people asking for high elves. Every thread anywhere is often suffocated by the no-helf crowd, so many of us just stayed silent.

The threads in the official forums were no exception. Even when they were about void elves, there were all sort of people going there and saying that we were asking too much and that void elves as they were are compromise enough. But, once Jan 30th came out and people finally were able to make a void elf... well, that sparked something in the forums. Alurna had the courage to start a true high elf thread, and more and more people started to come in there to say their support. While the thread is sustained by a core of regulars, there's no shortage of supporters appearing (and never coming back) all the time.

And, seeing your avatar and signature, I must add: let's get hopeful for ogres next!

[The Flavour Cat]

The High Elf mount should be an updated unicorn model that doesn't look like the coursers of Broken Isles (Straight horns, not curved!).

[Oswen]

As I already said in the past Alliance players were never to blame to ask for playable High elves mostly because Blizzard kept dangling the carrot in front of them for years even after the Blood Elf inclusion on the Horde.

When Legion launched I called that Nightborne would be eventually added on the Horde side and I was expecting a form of High Elves to join the Alliance to mirror them.
Void Elves ended up being datamined and I expected those to be that eventual form of High Elves except that, to my surprise, they weren't; Blizzard decided to pull off another thalassian subset instead of "evolving" those already present on the Alliance.
This decision could mean many things, did they really want to preserve High Elves for other purposes? Did they just "forget" or don't care about those? Would Blizzard really go on and add yet another race with the thalassian model on the Alliance while the Horde, which has Blood Elves as a core race, would only have one?

I want to believe that Blizzard has a purpose for them and they probably have since they now added High elves spellweavers in warfronts; I personally see the half elf option as the most reasonable since, as many have already said, even the game mentions through different ways that High Elves are being slowly "assimilated" by humans.
However I am also noticing that while High Elves have been requested since Vanilla we never arrived to a point as vocal as the one we are seeing right now, I believe that Blizzard *will* act "soon enough" and give a definitive answer to those fans: their voices can't be ignored at this point (and they are probably tired to hear the same questions over and over).

I am not saying they will or should happen but I would not be surprised at this point if High Elves (regular, vanilla ones) would become playable without any sort of compromise.
If that's the case Blizzard will want to compensate the Horde in some way, I can see two scenarios:

1- Reverse TBC: Horde gains access to the Draenei skeleton with a group Eredar joining (yes they are demons, but they would count as humanoid just like Forsaken aren't undead for gameplay reasons).

2- Kul Tiran model: Kul Tiran are a very unique Allied Race, with a custom model and animations; I could see the Horde having access to it for a Mok'nathal Allied Race (using the new probably based on Kul Tirans Rexxar model) or even pure Ogres.

[Eapoe]

At this point I hope Blizzard puts in HE...and they join the Horde. Seriously, just one of those dawning moments: "Hey, the Alliance betrayed us and left us to die at the hands of the Legion and other various forces, fuck those pricks. For the Horde! Lok to...how do you say it again?"

[Ithekro]

At this point I hope Blizzard puts in HE...and they join the Horde. Seriously, just one of those dawning moments: "Hey, the Alliance betrayed us and left us to die at the hands of the Legion and other various forces, fuck those pricks. For the Horde! Lok to...how do you say it again?"

"Its 'Like Tar' or something, duh."