1. #21321
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    High Elves are Trolls. Think about it. The tribe of Dark Trolls that settled around the Well of Eternity evolved into Night Elves who evolved into the High Elves (and Nightborne). Blood Elves, High Elves, Void Elves, Nightborne, Night Elf, Zandalari Trolls, are all just part of one big genealogical Troll family. Just because they adapted to new magic or new environments doesn't make them not Trolls. You can take the Elf out of the Troll but you can't take the Troll out of the Elf. /thread
    I just wonder what the trolls' ultimate origins are. Did they evolve from dinosaurs? Or birds maybe? They do share the backwards pointing toe with modern raptors (like eagles), only with nails instead of talons.

  2. #21322
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I guess its because of the heated discussion or hated thread this has become over the years and I think blizz just noticed and added the blue eyes to both races, thus making that choice were they belong to the players.

    I mean I am not here to discuss where they belong. But the change kinda stopped the discussion which I though was a good choice. Idk about that in current lore.. they feel more like a kirin tor thing these days and now obviously they are repreaented on both sides. Thats why that discussion is dead.

    I understand you feel this way.. but shadowlands made it so they are on both sides.. so no point in discussing why thry should be alliance with warcraft 2 to silver covenant arguments. Its done.

    I dissagree on your point that lore is unaffected. Its a pretty sensitive subject as you probably know. So my guess they will just leave the high elves in the middle like they did for years. Over the years more and more places were high elves lived.. have all become wretched or worse. I always took that of a sign. But now things have changed to let players decide were they feel like they should belong. Remember your opinion on where they belong is only an opinion and lore moves forward right?

    Its just a highly requested option for the alliance. Giving to both was the only option.. in the end.
    Is it that hard to understand that not because a Blood Elf can get blue eyes they are now a High Elf? This is my issue with your argument, it's completely aesthetically surface.

    I think people would be overjoyed to have blue eyes on the Horde as they claimed they wanted, but to keep saying "Now the horde has high elves" feels disingenuous to that point.

    Blood Elves are as much High Elves as they were before getting blue eyes, unless we -in the lore- get a Horde group of self-denominational High Elves, things remain pretty much the same, with the groups that actually refer to themselves as High Elves being either on the alliance (Silver Covenant and scattered around the Alliance) or neutral (Dalaran)

    But honestly, if all you are focusing is on the blue eyes as a litmus test to what a High Elf is, sure, go ahead. If aesthetics are all you are concerned about, that's no issue of mine and you do you.

  3. #21323
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Honestly that's such a sticking point for me; the whole point of the name is simply denominational and should not carry any value connotations, but yeah, people on both sides keep trying to use the nomenclature issue as some sort of win, when it's literally just a classification issue.

    And while I would be the first to jump on an official name change, "High Elf" as the name for both the Pre-Third War and Modern incarnations is how it is, so we gotta learn to deal with that as a whole.

    High Elf means both things, but we gotta learn to contextualize, so honestly the best choice would be to simply clarify within each context, because as much as you don't like the modern usage of the term, it's the only canonical way we have to them as entities. So the best I've got so far is Pre-Third War High Elves, and Modern High Elves. If they share the name, we gotta make a distinction.

    Personally, I like to use the term "Thalassian" when referring to the race + derivatives as a whole as well, because that way you bypass the whole High Elf issue and refer to every group of post-exile Highborne (VE,HE,BE)



    Indeed; as I said, with things as they are, we gotta learn to talk about it, but boy would it be 100% much easier if the remaining High Elves just changed their name. The name's importance from our perspective is simply in terms of classification. The Highvale Elves already seemed to have changed their name by cataclysm; interestingly, they are never referred as High Elves, but Highvale Elves in their quests. That seems very interesting.

    So honestly, for clarity's sake, and understanding that the name from our perspective only serves a purpose, I REALLY wish they changed it. Honestly if it came to actually just dropping the High and just referring to themselves as "elves" would be enough; that way we would simply add origin to any specific group -Like say, Silver Covenant Elves or Dalarani Elves-

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    Dude, you have to learn to separate the aesthetics from the lore usage of the term "High Elf", otherwise this conversation is utterly fraught.

    I keep saying that "High Elves as a group don't exist on the Horde" and you keep answering with "But they can look like High Elves" completely dismissing the nuance we are talking about, which is about what each group refers to themselves within the lore.

    Do you understand there's a difference between High Elf as a race in the biological sense, and High Elf as a political/ideological group? It's the same thing as Tushuii/Huojin; they are both pandaren, the same race, but each group calls themselves differently.

    And again, you can 100% call your blue eyed elf on the Horde a High Elf, but what I am saying -and you refuse to engage with as a statement- is that in the lore, there aren't any groups of self denominational High Elves in the Horde. Can you please try to understand that fact within the context I am presenting?
    There it says that it adds the high elves as a race! and that everyone can choose where they want their high elf (race) to align. if you play a blood elf with high elf customization you are a high elf and if you play a void elf with high elf customization you are a high elf.

  4. #21324
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    There it says that it adds the high elves as a race! and that everyone can choose where they want their high elf (race) to align. if you play a blood elf with high elf customization you are a high elf and if you play a void elf with high elf customization you are a high elf.
    ...And you are still unable or downright unwilling to understand what I am trying to say.

    Dude, I literally said

    And again, you can 100% call your blue eyed elf on the Horde a High Elf
    So it's either willful ignorance or utter lack of reading comprehension.

  5. #21325
    Some people simply will not settle for anything less than the Silver Covenant High Elves being made playable, despite being a footnote in the lore with no future.

    That's what they've worked themselves up to want over a decade of whining for playable High Elves and Void Elves (despite adding novel characteristics) hurts their precious sense of bizarre virtual racial purity.

  6. #21326
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    I just wonder what the trolls' ultimate origins are. Did they evolve from dinosaurs? Or birds maybe? They do share the backwards pointing toe with modern raptors (like eagles), only with nails instead of talons.
    there's one certain animal that has tusks, same skin palette as Zandalari, and regenerates insanely; I think that one?
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  7. #21327
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    ...And you are still unable or downright unwilling to understand what I am trying to say.

    Dude, I literally said



    So it's either willful ignorance or utter lack of reading comprehension.
    is what the developers say! that the customizations represent races: high elf or sand trolls for example. high elves are a race for blizzard! that's the difference between you and me, that you talk about one thing and I say what the devs say!

  8. #21328
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    You could say that.. I think many will dissagree.
    There are currenrtly 2 people here having exact this discussion.
    I was just thinking about that. It makes sense. You could just RP as a Blood Elf that wanted to join the Alliance but couldn't since everytime they tried it was thwarted and Alleria was the perfect chance.

  9. #21329
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    I was just thinking about that. It makes sense. You could just RP as a Blood Elf that wanted to join the Alliance but couldn't since everytime they tried it was thwarted and Alleria was the perfect chance.
    in the new book shadow rising there is a blood elf rogue who works for the alliance as a spy in the horde

  10. #21330
    Dreadlord Phaelia's Avatar
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    What’s hilarious to me, is that now that it’s good for them, the prohelfers are super happy with what devs say and use it as law. Makes me smile.
    ”I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me."-Sylvanas Windrunner

  11. #21331
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    in the new book shadow rising there is a blood elf rogue who works for the alliance as a spy in the horde
    Why does that sound a lot like Valeera Sanguinar? In that case, she's been "alliance" since before Vanilla.

  12. #21332
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Why does that sound a lot like Valeera Sanguinar? In that case, she's been "alliance" since before Vanilla.
    nope
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Narsilla_Keensight

  13. #21333
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    Ah, a mercenary sort of. Don't think I'd ever roleplay something like that but to each their own.

    But still though. Considering Alleria is regarded as such a big hero it makes sense that there would be Blood Elves who'd want to side with her.

  14. #21334
    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    despite being a footnote in the lore with no future
    You mean like the Void Elves? My dude, we just had a whole fucking void patch and the two (yes, TWO) whole void elves anyone cares about were barely in it. In a false alternate future that holds no meaning whatsoever.

    Don't be mad that the people hated on your diaper cyborgs. We have spoken.
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    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  15. #21335
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    High Elf means both things, but we gotta learn to contextualize, so honestly the best choice would be to simply clarify within each context, because as much as you don't like the modern usage of the term, it's the only canonical way we have to them as entities. So the best I've got so far is Pre-Third War High Elves, and Modern High Elves. If they share the name, we gotta make a distinction.
    It is used for that, we understand the context, but it also used for the race, and blizzard don't want to drop that, if they did, it would be way more easy to make the distinction, but still lies th problem of in that way, blood elf would not be the high elf, despite being. It all gets messy and no one would wan to feel robbed by
    Personally, I like to use the term "Thalassian" when referring to the race + derivatives as a whole as well, because that way you bypass the whole High Elf issue and refer to every group of post-exile Highborne (VE,HE,BE)
    isn't thallasian just another name for high elf, like quel'dorei? i still think its better for the ones in the alliance change their names, because thematically, they do not retain the traits of the high elf of old, high elf by now should be a defunct term since no elf alive today live like then, every one by now have some sort of fundamental difference, and by irony or no, the ones who most resemble then are from blood elves. The highvale elvs xample you gave is a good example of this, they have nothing to do with the high elves of the second war anymore, why they should be called high elves, and not highvale elves?


    So honestly, for clarity's sake, and understanding that the name from our perspective only serves a purpose, I REALLY wish they changed it. Honestly if it came to actually just dropping the High and just referring to themselves as "elves" would be enough; that way we would simply add origin to any specific group -Like say, Silver Covenant Elves or Dalarani Elves-
    i don't think just calling then elves work, because night elves are over there too, it would goes against normal nomenclature of species, the same problem of trolls, thy never are "just trolls"

    But is indeed just things blizzard will never "fix" in their lore, despite being so healthy for the game

  16. #21336
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaelia View Post
    What’s hilarious to me, is that now that it’s good for them, the prohelfers are super happy with what devs say and use it as law. Makes me smile.
    That can go both ways. People that used to be so super happy with what the devs say and use it as law (remember, "The Horde is waiting for you"?) who now hate the word of the devs since they no longer hold that view.

  17. #21337
    Dreadlord Phaelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FossilFree View Post
    That can go both ways. People that used to be so super happy with what the devs say and use it as law (remember, "The Horde is waiting for you"?) who now hate the word of the devs since they no longer hold that view.
    That’s what I mean though. I’m not disputing anything the devs are saying but they fought it tooth and nail back then. :shrug:
    ”I've walked the realms of the dead. I have seen the infinite dark. Nothing you say. Or do. Could possibly frighten me."-Sylvanas Windrunner

  18. #21338
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Is it that hard to understand that not because a Blood Elf can get blue eyes they are now a High Elf? This is my issue with your argument, it's completely aesthetically surface.

    I think people would be overjoyed to have blue eyes on the Horde as they claimed they wanted, but to keep saying "Now the horde has high elves" feels disingenuous to that point.

    Blood Elves are as much High Elves as they were before getting blue eyes, unless we -in the lore- get a Horde group of self-denominational High Elves, things remain pretty much the same, with the groups that actually refer to themselves as High Elves being either on the alliance (Silver Covenant and scattered around the Alliance) or neutral (Dalaran)

    But honestly, if all you are focusing is on the blue eyes as a litmus test to what a High Elf is, sure, go ahead. If aesthetics are all you are concerned about, that's no issue of mine and you do you.
    You seem to not understand me or its flying over your head. I mean I already told you why and what. I keep repeating myself and you started quoting me for what? To tell me its not about the aesthetics? Well its all about that in the end. Its about costumization. We never had a discussion about alliance or horde, because I already told you that discussion is dead now since both sides have high elf options.
    Honestly.. because you clearly dont understand what I mean with the past look high elves had and what people wanted from high elves. This thread was for a long time about the blue eyes because guess what.. that was the only difference between the two lookwise. Now that, that is changed with void elves having blue eyes with for example black hair.. yea I get it.

    Doesnt take away the fact that players have been crying over light hair, blue eyes look for years. I was refering to that particular look as the look people know and wanted. You are able to look like one and identify as one.. and you are on the horde or the alliance. Your choice.. but..If you feel like a kirin tor elf or silver covenant elf.. no one cares because thats just the rp part of it for yourself only.

    Now you claim you dont care about that. Then what is? A high elf tag? Not understanding you look like a high elf, but your are still a void or blood elf in the tag?

    You dont need to explain to me that both blood elves and void elves have options NOW to look like one and imo blood elves look and feel like the real deal and void elves not so much to come back to my innitial point.

    But I pass for repeating myself over and over again dude.
    Try reading a post before quoting.. I mean most of the stuff you keep saying I already said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shoc View Post
    Some people simply will not settle for anything less than the Silver Covenant High Elves being made playable, despite being a footnote in the lore with no future.

    That's what they've worked themselves up to want over a decade of whining for playable High Elves and Void Elves (despite adding novel characteristics) hurts their precious sense of bizarre virtual racial purity.
    This is kinda true. They should be happy they are able to rp as one on both factions.

    That discussion is dead choc and happy so.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2020-10-08 at 09:21 AM.

  19. #21339
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    You are essentially not saying anything. Which is feat on itself.

    If not, next time I will find my way to the ignore button, so anything else sir?
    How ironic. Ignore if you wish, wouldn't be the end of my world.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaelia View Post
    That’s what I mean though. I’m not disputing anything the devs are saying but they fought it tooth and nail back then. :shrug:
    And he's saying the defenders at the time, likewise did the same thing you're accusing one group of doing now. If both groups are supposedly doing something (I personally disagree but that's a different topic I don't wanna get into) then there's not really any significance to point it out only on one side.

    Yet most of those who opposed Alliance getting High Elf customization appear to do that very often -> accuse High Elf fans of doing certain things and not even acknowledging it happened with Blood Elf fans as well.

  20. #21340
    Quote Originally Posted by Phaelia View Post
    That’s what I mean though. I’m not disputing anything the devs are saying but they fought it tooth and nail back then. :shrug:
    I stood by what the devs said back then (for example, I agreed that "the Horde is waiting for you" if you wanted to play a blonde light skinned elf), but have accepted the devs change of view on the matter. I do hope that some distinction remains between blood elves and void elves, namely that void elves retain dark/cool hair colors (so as to not just be a copy pasta of blood elves), but at the end of the day if they choose to give them natural hair colors then it is what it is and I'll be fine.

    Many pro helfers however were vehemently against what the devs said back then (because it opposed their opinions), and now they hold the devs words as gospel now that it suits their agenda. /shrug. Many hypocrites among that community.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

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