Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Vaedan]

On your post, I think its a great suggestion and like you said solving a bunch of problems that we had a discussion about couple of days ago. The only problem is that with bfa the horde trust with the san layn is a little broken, we would need some help to get these guys in. Any suggestions?

That's most likely true. The thing is, we don't have any Horde PoV of san'layn working with them. We don't even know if other Horde members were aware of san'layn taking their part in war campaign, or if they know how they treated fellow Forsaken on Crimson Wail... it was just Alliance who witnessed it, so I'd say this shit has not really sailed yet. Possible scenario:

- After Sylvanas raided Icecrown and Scourge went out of control, a Scourge presence in Quel'thalas grew into serious threat. With Undercity destroyed and Sylvanas compromised, Forsaken abandoned their duty in Ghostlands to take care of their own problems. Blood elves found themselves facing increasing Scourge attacks on key position. A group of San'layn approached blood elves with offer for aid.

I think if san'layn show that they are more then bloodthirsty vampiric undeads and that they still care about their homeland, there can be a way for them to rejoin the Horde. Dark rangers already made it clear Quel'thalas is still important for them, so san'layn could do the same.
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[Alanar]

You call my examples bogus, yet make a bogus example yourself. Is the "blood elf forsaken" going turn into a "human forsaken" the moment they enter combat? Nine times out of ten, when you, as a Horde, see a worgen around, they're in worgen form. Also, people don't play Worgen because they want to look like humans, mind you.


I'm not "deciding" anything. I'm just stating the facts as to why the idea is nonsensical.


That's a non-answer. If "Blizzard wants", they can decide to remove the forsaken playable race from the game. If "Blizzard wants", they can add full-sized Titans as a playable race. If "Blizzard wants", they can add a playable farmer class into the game.


How do you know that "kul'tirans should not look different from Stormwind humans"?


It's not semantics. Again, the playable forsaken race is the humans that died in Lordaeron when the Scourge invaded.


If you think you can prove that there were a sizable population of elves living in Lordaeron at the time of the Scourge invasion, big enough to warrant becoming playable, feel free. Just keep in mind that all the living high elves around weren't enough to warrant an allied race of their own, according to Blizzard's eyes.

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And Turalyon is still the leader of the Army of the Light.


I fail to see where I ever said I want the requests to stop or even that I want them to stop.


So has been the request to play as high elves as their own separate race.


You want facts? Here are some facts: Sylvanas is a banshee, the player character is a zombie. Sylvanas is an elf, the player character is a human. Making the forsaken playable race look like blood elves messes with the visual identity of the playable race.

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So you openly admit to using red herrings? Is that is?


One: I never said anything about "eating dark naaru".
Two: So you think that elves are risking their lives, willingly going through a trap that is intended to convert them into thralls of the Void Lords, and hoping to have it interrupted at the right time, risking death, or worse, being slaves of the Void Lords, is more likely than them undergoing a safer, more controlled process created by Locus Walker? Is that it?


While you state your headcanons as fact?


It is the same. So what if they don't go all the way, because "dark naarus" are a rare commodity to come by, especially one that falls "naturally".






Nope. Again, Sylvanas is an elf, and the player forsaken is a human. That's like saying my lightforged draenei should be able to look like a human since the leader of the Army of the Light is a human.


I suppose I should use simpler words, then? Considering I literally wrote the explanation and you even quoted it, but still act as if I didn't. Ok, here goes: dwarves are dwarves, elves are elves. But humans are not elves.


... Really? Did you play Legion at all? Did you forget Alleria absorbing void energies more than once as you progress the quest line with her and Locus Walker? And what do you think a "dark naaru" is? It's pure void.


Humans are the face of the Alliance, and one of the two defining faces of the franchises. I honestly doubt Blizzard would add a 'human allied race' or 'human customization' to the Horde, just like I doubt Blizzard would ever add an 'orc allied race' or 'orc customization' to the Alliance.


It's not. If a Horde player sees a thalassian elf in the distance, and its outline, nameplate or targeting circle is red, then it's unmistakably a void elf. But if it's green (or blue) isn't unmistakably a blood elf.


Yes, they are.


We also had way, WAY more high elves in the world than brown orcs. And what was the reason that the developers game for the reason why high elves aren't eligible to be a playable race, again? I think it has to do with population, or lack thereof...

This is a mess wow... No way I will be quoting every single thing like I said earlier. You still seem to miss the obvious fact we are talking about.

*Sylvanas
*banshee
*ghoul
*abommination

Are all called forsaken in the forsaken as in qualifying themselves as a forsaken also the race you play which are called like this. No one cares if you play a zombi or a ghoul.. in this case. No you play a forsaken. Not hard to grasp.

Your Turalyon argument is laughable now.. you keep getting back to it when you its a realy bad argument and you got pointed out multiple times about it now. You play a lightforged draenei.. if I wanted to.play a human Id roll one

Anything else I missed... yea alot, but I will.leave ot here and enjoy the discussion you have with sigfryd. You got proven wrong on so many levels its not even funny anymore.

#popcorn


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That's most likely true. The thing is, we don't have any Horde PoV of san'layn working with them. We don't even know if other Horde members were aware of san'layn taking their part in war campaign, or if they know how they treated fellow Forsaken on Crimson Wail... it was just Alliance who witnessed it, so I'd say this shit has not really sailed yet. Possible scenario:

- After Sylvanas raided Icecrown and Scourge went out of control, a Scourge presence in Quel'thalas grew into serious threat. With Undercity destroyed and Sylvanas compromised, Forsaken abandoned their duty in Ghostlands to take care of their own problems. Blood elves found themselves facing increasing Scourge attacks on key position. A group of San'layn approached blood elves with offer for aid.

I think if san'layn show that they are more then bloodthirsty vampiric undeads and that they still care about their homeland, there can be a way for them to rejoin the Horde. Dark rangers already made it clear Quel'thalas is still important for them, so san'layn could do the same.
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True, we only saw it through the eyes of the alliance and not horde. Talanji was there and she was super skeptical about them and since Sylvanas was the one to reqruit them, I think the horde would be skeptical.

Yea I would lile to see them on tbe horde, but I think Kael is a character who could play a key role in helping them recover and maybe even help them with their curse.
Could be an inyeresting story.

[Ielenia]

Why does that matter when allied races of Void Elves, which are a *fraction* of the remaining High Elves that didn't become Blood Elves, were all allowed to exist as their own playable race?

Don't argue with me. Argue with Blizzard, since that was their explanation as to why high elves cannot be a playable race of their own.

Also Forsaken Elves did not need to *live in Lordaeron at the time of the Scourge*, they were part of the Alliance in WC3 as represented by Priests and Sorceresses fighting alongside Lordaeron troops and would have died on the battlefield just the same. Also there are those that were raised afterwards like the Dark Rangers who followed Sylvanas and pledged themselves under the Forsaken banner. Exiles Reach is also a perfect way to incorporate a Forsaken Elf allied race into the game.

So you're saying that if one picks "forsaken blood elf" customization, their only option for starter zone would be Exiles' Reach? Because the actual forsaken's starting zone is a Lordaeron cemetery.

Dude, if you can make a statement like 'People don't play Worgen because they want to look like humans' then you shouldn't be asking me to prove why 'People won't bat an eye if they get Forsaken Elves'. Don't be asinine.

Not the same thing. People don't play worgen to look like humans, but a "forsaken blood elf" player would be playing one to look like a blood elf. Because that is the reason they would chose that customization option. Also, I never asked you to "prove people won't bat an eye if they get forsaken elves". That was never my argument, nor have I ever wrote something like that. I simply pointed out how it muddles the playable race's visual identity.

Jaina and Daelin were both in Warcraft 3 and in WoW and look like regular Humans. Majority of the Proudmoore family look no different than Stormwind humans. The entire Kul Tiran fleet in WC3 AND in Reforged were represented by the standard human models. This is especially the case with Reforged considering they made model variations for plenty of 'sub' races, like Fel Orcs, Troll tribes, differences between Yetis and Sasquatches, etc.

That's how I know

I don't think Warcraft 3 should be used as a comparison of how characters look like, considering night elves and high/blood elves were of the same height back then. Also, Kul'Tiras' population has been depicted as being diverse, with humans looking big like the allied race, normal-looking like the Stormwind humans, and small and frail using the forsaken skeleton model.

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This is a mess... and hilarious at the same time. I cant take you serious anymore.

Like you ever were, considering your examples. Funny how you call my posts "mess" yet you fail to properly address the points I made.

[Alanar]

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Like you ever were, considering your examples. Funny how you call my posts "mess" yet you fail to properly address the points I made.

Its the other way around. You started quoting me with your nonsense. You got proven wrong enough. I have a point.. you never had one.

[Triceron]

So you're saying that if one picks "forsaken blood elf" customization, their only option for starter zone would be Exiles' Reach? Because the actual forsaken's starting zone is a Lordaeron cemetery.

They can be treated as their own allied race. Whether they start at Lordaeron cemetary would be met with the same inconsistency you get with Wildhammers starting in Ironforge or Sand Trolls starting in Orgrimmar. Take it up with Blizzard if you have a problem with this, I didn't decide for this to happen nor would I decide where Forsaken Elves have their *actual* starting zone.

As I said, Exile's Reach is the perfect way to incorporate them. I didn't say that the game lore isn't fucked up anywhere else, because as I said the lore is already fucked up and not to be considered a factor in deciding what race or customization to choose. If it were up to me, Lightforged and Pandaren DK's wouldn't be a thing either, but here we stand with both.

Not the same thing. People don't play worgen to look like humans, but a "forsaken blood elf" player would be playing one to look like a blood elf. Because that is the reason they would chose that customization option. Also, I never asked you to "prove people won't bat an eye if they get forsaken elves". That was never my argument, nor have I ever wrote something like that. I simply pointed out how it muddles the playable race's visual identity.

Er, you can literally go back a few pages and you see yourself. Page 1115, bottom of your own reply.

Me: No one is gonna bat an eye at undead Elves being used as a forsaken model if they open that option.
You: How do you know that?

You literally asked me to prove how I know. You didn't counter with visual identity, you said 'How do you know'. Then later you reply to me with the same lines of 'People don't roll Worgen to play Human form'. That's bullshit, and I'm calling you out on it. Don't even try to defend your hypocrisy here.

I don't think Warcraft 3 should be used as a comparison of how characters look like, considering night elves and high/blood elves were of the same height back then. Also, Kul'Tiras' population has been depicted as being diverse, with humans looking big like the allied race, normal-looking like the Stormwind humans, and small and frail using the forsaken skeleton model.

Roll back here. You asked me How I KNOW that Kul Tirans look like regular humans. You can't deny this with 'well WC3 isn't a good comparison' when you're using examples of Night Elf and Blood Elf height in TBC RETCONNING in a visual height difference that was never stated in lore or visually represented in the games prior to TBC. Did you forget that all High Elves in Vanilla WoW were all using Night Elf models??

This is a perfect example of how a NEW ADDITION in WoW retcons all previous representations in lore. So why is it so hard for you to accept that Forsaken Elves being playable would forcibly change your current perception that Forsaken are only Lordaeron Humans? You seem to be okay with Night Elves and Blood Elves having a height difference despite them being depicted as being the same in Vanilla/Classic WoW. You seem to be okay with Kul Tiran looking diverse despite them looking the same as regular humans in all depictions before BFA, such as Jaina and every Proudmoore. Yet you're making this Forsaken issue the hill you're going to die on? There is nothing in Forsaken lore that says they could not comprise of other races. In fact the lore itself includes multiple subraces within its own faction, such as undead Elves, Abominations and even a Dreadlord.

While comprised primarily of undead humans, the Forsaken are a diverse faction that include several different races at their biological core. However, they have all assumed their racial identity as "Forsaken," due to their shared goals and loyalties.[10]

The only case you can make is that they are currently focused on Humans of Lordaeron, but that is not reason to exclude any other races beyond undead Human. The Forsaken do not discriminate between races, they are united in being undead that are free from the Scourge influence.

How can you say 'Kul Tiran is depicted as being diverse' while using fallacious logic to argue the Forsaken is only comprised of undead Humans? It is already a standing fact that undead Elves are amongst their ranks. That's more than anyone can say about Sand Trolls in the Horde.

The lore isn't the reason why they're not considered right now, only the Dev's being willing or not to make it a reality. Same would apply to why Wildhammers aren't getting their own Allied Race when they absolutely should; it's a case of the Devs deciding not to do it and not a matter of lore or visual identity.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

it depends, im sure thing all colors in existence to everyone here seems reduldant but the main point here is how this also affect "equal" races.

Like dark iron and normal dwarves still have different set of color differeence, in skin and hair, same for other allied races, if void elves don't have skin difference, at least let he hair color be different.



So, you want void elves to essentially be 2 playable races? cause that is the thing, if you give then everything they will be blood elves and void elves

there must be a difference, and of course will be arbitrary, everything is.




their hair grow tentacles dude, do you see tentacles in their bodies? no, but you see in the hair, meaning the hair act different, you can hide your void energy in the skin, but it will show in the hair, so it does make sense



Alleria also is a different case, she ate a dark naaru, she didn't undergo the same ritual the other did, you are using double standarts here.



Lore argument don't hold much ground anymore, so you can't keep using that as defining factory, yes it is a arbitrary distinction to set then apart, like they have done with all allied races, orcs and maghar have different haircolors and hairstyles, same for dark iron and the others, i can't fathom why void elves are better than everyone else to receive a better treatment and become 2 races in one.

And it make totally sense in a lore and design kind of way to make lighter colors to be exclusive to blood elves, since their relationship with the light and the sunwell, and make darker colors exclusive to Void elves. due to their void mutation, this way everyone feels unique in their own game and fantasy, while sharing the same shenanigans of high elves.

Like rly, you guys got the skin color, isn't that enough to rp HE anyway? talked so much about consensus but nothing will be ok until they got everything? a He isn't a HE until they got the legolas hair?

Hey as long as you admit its an arbitrary lore non-compliant reasoning, fine by me. You just want to enforce distinction, I get it, but what I am saying is that it seems pointless when all the rest is shared; and I'm not saying that aesthetic differentiation shouldn't exist, at the contrary, I feel aesthetic differentiation can be far more meaningful than simply segregating hair color. The only that avenue succeeds is in denying an iconic HE look on VE's, which is kinda basic from either side, hence why the problem just seems petty.

Cause again, VE's already can look like High Elves, is just that they are limited to black hair, so it's really nothing short of pettiness to push for a denial of anything close to a HE hair color on VE's, because if you actually cared for aesthetic differentiation, you'd be asking yourself more how lighter hair colors -and in what shade- could fit a uniquely VE aesthetic.

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perhaps I haven't whined enough for Alteraci Human and perhaps Ogres and Furbolgs

also, it's quite sad and disheartening to see that the same people who clamored for High Elves or at least fair skinned Void Elves are also the ones who want to deny me Alteraci Human

I mean I hope it doesn't come of a surprise, but a lot of people wanted high elves because they are alliance edgelords, so of course they are gonna be against anything interesting for the horde.

[Strippling]

light undead like calia for forsaken allied race

I mean sure why not. Why not nathanos style options for undead too? Dark ranger options can still exist via blood elves or forsaken as well.

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Really? Where is this happening? I've gone through the entire Telogrus Rift, and didn't see any void elf being created. Only high/blood elves standing around, and void elves ALREADY created.


If you want to go that way, "no where it is stated that they are NOT transforming via different means", and applying a little bit of basic logic here, we can agree that new elves are created though a different process than the one that transformed Umbric's group.

And considering Locus Walker is there, once again, logic dictates that it's much more likely that the new void elves are being created through Locus Walker's teachings, considering he is quite adept at such.

Such a weak argument. Like I said, as it stands the playable void elf was created via a different method to Alleria. It's the lore and no where does it state that void elves have now adopted a transformation method similar to Alleria's. Speculate all you want, that's all it is though... mere speculation. Until otherwise stated by Blizzard.

Insults. The last resort of those without arguments.

Nearly every one of your replies to me and several other people on this thread include some form of insult toward us. You're a hypocrite.

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This is my point. The top part.
Its not hard to understand that.. same count for Nathanos, sylvanas, calia and garrosh, but appearntly sylvanas isnt forsaken enough and old examples of garrosh appearntly dont count altho its the exact same thing. Nathanos is forsaken and human, but you also dont have the option to look like him. Malfurion same story.. I can go on.. what s pointless discussion.. what is he trying to achieve?

So hes having the same discussion with 3 people now lmao.

Yea I'd ignore him. He has a history of doing this.

There is no valid counter argument to the fact that many races cannot look like their leaders, so void elves don't deserve any special treatment that has not been afforded to other races. To this day forsaken still cannot look like Sylvanas, nor can they look like Calia or Nathanos, all of whom are/were leader figures for the forsaken.

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Well, in the same logic, any playable troll should be only jungle troll of Darkspear tribe and their thematics should reflect that and any playable dwarf should be mountain dwarf of Bronzebeard clan and their thematics should reflect that, and yet here we are with sand troll and wildhammer thematics baked into troll and dwarf core races. Devs also told us they intend to expand high elf fantasy on both sides, so it's safe to expect void elves getting more high elf option in the future. The question is how it will be implemented and how Blizzard will chose to differentiate void elves and blood elves after that, because there should be some differences.

The problem is that Blizz is already blurring the lines on both groups. At first, they added all blood elf skins to void elves, which was unneccessary. I guess few natural skin would be just fine, adding all blood elf palette was kind of overkill for me. Tanned and black skin tones do not really fit void elf theme at all, and yet here we are. In the same way, blue hair color themes do not really fit into blood elf theme, it definitely blurs the lines between them and void elves and yet, here we are. I know these colors were imported from blood elf DKs, but still blue hair used to be a feature which was one those which set void elves apart.

Don't forget that devs claimed these new customizations are meant as a way for players to bring their RP better into the reality and it does not need to followed by the lore all the times.

A major flaw with your argument is that neither trolls or dwarves cross faction boundaries. Trolls were given options to look like other troll tribes, none of which are available to the Alliance. Dwarves were given options to look like wildhammer, who aren't available to Horde players.

The issue with void elves is that the more "natural" options you give them the closer you make them to blood elves. The argument of giving them different shades of blonde, etc... is also pointless because regardless, natural hair colors no matter the shade would make them closer to a blood elf than to a void elf... which is silly given that the race is VOID ELF. Blood elves have a right to have customizations and thematics that are unique to them. Void elves were given some options to look like a high elf, but to me it is still very important that every race available should have visuals that distinguish them from other races... it's what makes race selection important and meaningful from a gameplay perspective. Any "high elf" option for void elves only makes them closer to blood elves and further away from their actual theme... the void. Some options were given, but any further customizations options should focus on the void aspect of the race as that is what they are first and foremost.

Again, the argument for dwarves or trolls is irrelevant in this discussion because none of the options that they were given make them look similar to other races, especially races that are CORE to the opposing faction.

Faction distinction should be maintained, and so should racial distinction. Both are important aspects of the game.

[Ielenia]

Its the other way around. You started quoting me with your nonsense. You got proven wrong enough. I have a point.. you never had one.

You mean I have not been proven wrong, considering on my original response to you, I wrote nothing but facts: your argument does not work regarding Sylvanas, for reasons I have repeated countless times.

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Er, you can literally go back a few pages and you see yourself. Page 1115, bottom of your own reply.

Me: No one is gonna bat an eye at undead Elves being used as a forsaken model if they open that option.
You: How do you know that?

You literally asked me to prove how I know. You didn't counter with visual identity, you said 'How do you know'. Then later you reply to me with the same lines of 'People don't roll Worgen to play Human form'. That's bullshit, and I'm calling you out on it. Don't even try to defend your hypocrisy here.

True. I did post that question. However, that question is valid, because you decided to shoulder the burden of proof by making a 'positive claim' that "no one would bat an eye to forsaken looking like blood elves".

Roll back here. You asked me How I KNOW that Kul Tirans look like regular humans. You can't deny this with 'well WC3 isn't a good comparison' when you're using examples of Night Elf and Blood Elf height in TBC RETCONNING in a visual height difference that was never stated in lore or visually represented in the games prior to TBC. Did you forget that all High Elves in Vanilla WoW were all using Night Elf models??

Yes, I asked how you know, because we never saw the nation of kul'tiras. We've seen only a small sample of them. To "know" means a fact. And we never saw any official information on how kul'tirans should look like compared to Stormwind humans.

How can you say 'Kul Tiran is depicted as being diverse' while using fallacious logic to argue the Forsaken is only comprised of undead Humans? It is already a standing fact that undead Elves are amongst their ranks. That's more than anyone can say about Sand Trolls in the Horde.

Sand trolls do not alter the visual identity of the trolls. They still possess the same exact silhouette. In other words: a troll is still a troll

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Such a weak argument.

Demeaning my argument and nothing else. Looks like this is just an attempt to avoid having to deal with the arguments than anything.

Like I said, as it stands the playable void elf was created via a different method to Alleria.

In other words, you are asserting your headcanon as fact?

Because, "as it stands", we have seen no conclusive proof either way, but considering void elves now have access to fair skin, it heavily implies that we're going through the same process Alleria went through.

It's the lore

Your headcanon is not official lore.

and no where does it state that void elves have now adopted a transformation method similar to Alleria's.

By that token, "no where does it state that the void elves have not adopted a transformation method similar to Alleria's". On top of that, as I mentioned above, the fact void elf players have access to uncorrupted skin options, implies that they are indeed using a transformation method similar to the one Alleria went through.

Speculate all you want, that's all it is though... mere speculation. Until otherwise stated by Blizzard.

It hasn't stopped you from stating your headcanon as fact, though.

Nearly every one of your replies to me and several other people on this thread include some form of insult toward us. You're a hypocrite.

More insults. Funny. I have not insulted anyone. Unless you count "not agreeing with you" as an insult.

[Triceron]

True. I did post that question. However, that question is valid, because you decided to shoulder the burden of proof by making a 'positive claim' that "no one would bat an eye to forsaken looking like blood elves".

And you did the same by making the statement that people don't play Worgen for the Human forms. You can't back that claim.

I have a Worgen DK. I chose Worgen because the racials were better than what Humans had at the time. I use the Stormwind transmog set primarily in human form in PVP, it looks pretty terrible with the Worgen form stretching it out. If I had the option to stay in Human form in combat, I would use it.

Yes, I asked how you know, because we never saw the nation of kul'tiras. We've seen only a small sample of them. To "know" means a fact. And we never saw any official information on how kul'tirans should look like compared to Stormwind humans.

We have seen the full nation of Kul Tiras in Warcraft 3. Rexxar's campaign goes over this entirely. Again, what we have in there represents all of Warcraft lore as we know it.

What you actually want to say is we had yet to see a version of Kul Tiras where we have diverse variations of Humans. That only exists because BFA effectively retconned everything we saw before it.

The simple answer is we have yet to see a playable variation of Forsaken that includes racial diversity such as Elves. Kul Tiran is as much Human as a Forsaken Elf would be a Forsaken. They don't need to look exactly like the core race you expect to be of that race or group.

Sand trolls do not alter the visual identity of the trolls. They still possess the same exact silhouette. In other words: a troll is still a troll

Why are you talking about visual identity of the troll when I specifically called it out for lacking lore? Are you simply replying without actually reading the context of these statements?

Part of your reason for not having Forsaken Elf is because they don't fit the Lordaeron starting zone, or simply calling them out as 'aggregates'. Neither would Sand Trolls if they were to start in Orgrimmar or the Echo Isles. Sand Trolls in the Horde have no unique starting zone to call their own, heck I'm not even sure if they are being given proper lore to tie them into the Horde. Exiles Reach simply overlooks all those issues instead of providing specific lore. It's the perfect place to add *ANY* outlier races into the game.

[Syegfryed]

Hey as long as you admit its an arbitrary lore non-compliant reasoning, fine by me. You just want to enforce distinction, I get it, but what I am saying is that it seems pointless when all the rest is shared;

Like i said, everything is arbitrary, especially if it is to set equal races different, both in appearence and thematic, just like normal Dwarves will not get flaming beards and hair, its arbtirary but make sense to make dark iron unique and normal dwarves a thing on their on

and I'm not saying that aesthetic differentiation shouldn't exist, at the contrary, I feel aesthetic differentiation can be far more meaningful than simply segregating hair color. The only that avenue succeeds is in denying an iconic HE look on VE's, which is kinda basic from either side, hence why the problem just seems petty.

what more meaning than that? there is literally nothing left to make then different with skin being shared, hair color is th only thing "big" that have left" to their work on a difference in thematic, like i said, darker for void elves, lighter for blood elves.

Blonde hair is not such iconic for HE either, like, what i see pettyis people getting something they should not, that is the skin color, that was the whole point of the previous demands, but also demanding everything the blood elves have, im pretty sure the world isn't going to fall and your "he" experience" will not be ruined if you don't have one hair colo option, because again, you are not a HE, but a VE

Cause again, VE's already can look like High Elves, is just that they are limited to black hair, so it's really nothing short of pettiness to push for a denial of anything close to a HE hair color on VE's, because if you actually cared for aesthetic differentiation, you'd be asking yourself more how lighter hair colors -and in what shade- could fit a uniquely VE aesthetic.

you see pettiness in not wanting to VE rob all blood elves options, i see pettiness in wanting all blood elves options

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So you openly admit to using red herrings? Is that is?

bold of you to use the word i teach you before

One: I never said anything about "eating dark naaru".

So you openly admit to using red herrings? Is that is?

the irony

Two: So you think that elves are risking their lives, willingly going through a trap that is intended to convert them into thralls of the Void Lords, and hoping to have it interrupted at the right time, risking death, or worse, being slaves of the Void Lords, is more likely than them undergoing a safer, more controlled process created by Locus Walker? Is that it?

nice strawman here, but gain, no matter how you spin it, thy did not overgo the same thing as alleria, therefore they are not the same, your argumment falls appart

While you state your headcanons as fact?

maybe you did not realized yet but your extrapolation and nonsensical are also headcnaon dude, you are so up your high horse you didn't get that

It is the same.

While you state your headcanons as fact?

So what if they don't go all the way, because "dark naarus" are a rare commodity to come by, especially one that falls "naturally".

you are making shit up

Nope. Again, Sylvanas is an elf, and the player forsaken is a human. That's like saying my lightforged draenei should be able to look like a human since the leader of the Army of the Light is a human.

nope. Again, you are using double standarts, the playable race is not army of the light, is lighforged draenei, while forsaken is the playable race

I suppose I should use simpler words, then? Considering I literally wrote the explanation and you even quoted it, but still act as if I didn't. Ok, here goes: dwarves are dwarves, elves are elves. But humans are not elves.

its laughble how you are using rbitrry and double tandarts answer like they make some logic when it litrally matters fuck nothing

Forsaken is a group of undead, any udnead would fall for that, if you are trying to use the obnoxious logic that if you leader is one way then you have to give undead elves to forsaken, because they are not "undead human of lordaeron" they are Forsaken


void elves are not high elves either, void elves didn't eat a dark naru either, again, bullshit double standarts

... Really? Did you play Legion at all? Did you forget Alleria absorbing void energies more than once as you progress the quest line with her and Locus Walker?

she did absorb more than once but she didn't become a void elf until she ate the naaru

And what do you think a "dark naaru" is? It's pure void.

bold of you to assume a headcanon to make a explanation so simple and wrong

Humans are the face of the Alliance, and one of the two defining faces of the franchises. I honestly doubt Blizzard would add a 'human allied race' or 'human customization' to the Horde, just like I doubt Blizzard would ever add an 'orc allied race' or 'orc customization' to the Alliance.

and since elves are a horde race, there is no problem in letting forsaken chose unded elf am i right? cause elves are horde for 13 years

It's not. If a Horde player sees a thalassian elf in the distance, and its outline, nameplate or targeting circle is red, then it's unmistakably a void elf. But if it's green (or blue) isn't unmistakably a blood elf.

tell me again why this dumb logic matters, especially when there is a infinity of toys to change race, the model is already shared by factions, there is literally no problem in sharing bewtein races of he same faction

it doesn't matter, he will se a horde player anyway

Yes, they are.

While you state your headcanons as fact?

because void elves are not the same race as other elves, they are literally, elves mutated/changed by the void. Again, wrong, hedcanon, using double standarts, you are a talking contradiction;

We also had way, WAY more high elves in the world than brown orcs.

what bullshit are you saying? high elves are almost extinct, they are less than the gnomes exiles, and they keep dying, the only "major" group of high elves are in the silver covenant and they are so few they can't make up an entire squad, they need someone else to stand like in isle of thunder and suramar

While you saw, TONS brown orcs since the dark portal had opened, maybe you don't kno becuse you obviouslly don't play horde, but there was a lot of brown orcs from wtlk to mop, hell, they ven are majority in the siege lol

And what was the reason that the developers game for the reason why high elves aren't eligible to be a playable race, again? I think it has to do with population, or lack thereof...

your premis is false, therefore your argument is invalid.

[Ielenia]

And you did the same by making the statement that people don't play Worgen for the Human forms. You can't back that claim.

I have a Worgen DK. I chose Worgen because the racials were better than what Humans had at the time. I use the Stormwind transmog set primarily in human form in PVP, it looks pretty terrible with the Worgen form stretching it out. If I had the option to stay in Human form in combat, I would use it.

Sounds like you're more like the exception than the norm, to be fairly honest.

We have seen the full nation of Kul Tiras in Warcraft 3. Rexxar's campaign goes over this entirely. Again, what we have in there represents all of Warcraft lore as we know it.

You mean the bonus campaign from WC3? By 'nation of Kul'Tiras', do you mean Theramore? Because Theramore was founded by Jaina with survivors from Lordaeron.

Why are you talking about visual identity of the troll when I specifically called it out for lacking lore? Are you simply replying without actually reading the context of these statements?

Because that is my argument, and always has been: the visual identity of the playable race.

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bold of you to use the word i teach you before

Repeating a lie does not make it any less of a lie. Also, you're dodging the question.

nice strawman here, but gain, no matter how you spin it, thy did not overgo the same thing as alleria, therefore they are not the same, your argumment falls appart

Again, you're stating headcanon as fact. We don't know what process they're going through. And, once again, by the simple fact that void elves have access to fair skin, heavily implies that they're going by the process Alleria went through.

maybe you did not realized yet but your extrapolation and nonsensical are also headcnaon dude, you are so up your high horse you didn't get that

Except you are the only one here stating headcanon as fact.

you are making shit up

So you're saying that dark naarus are rare, especially ones that fall naturally to the void? Is that it?

nope. Again, you are using double standarts, the playable race is not army of the light, is lighforged draenei, while forsaken is the playable race

It's not a double standard. It's basic logic. "Forsaken" may be the name of the playable race, but as a forsaken player, you play a zombified human that died in Lordaeron. As a race, your character is human.

its laughble how you are using rbitrry and double tandarts answer like they make some logic when it litrally matters fuck nothing

Forsaken is a group of undead, any udnead would fall for that, if you are trying to use the obnoxious logic that if you leader is one way then you have to give undead elves to forsaken, because they are not "undead human of lordaeron" they are Forsaken

You, as a forsaken, is a human from Lordaeron. You are not a blood elf from Silvermoon. Forsaken players cannot be blood elves because they're a different race than humans.

void elves are not high elves either, void elves didn't eat a dark naru either, again, bullshit double standarts

How do you know? Or are you stating headcanon as facts, again?

she did absorb more than once but she didn't become a void elf until she ate the naaru

How do you know she couldn't turn into void form before absorbing the Naaru? Just because she didn't, doesn't mean she couldn't. Aside from that, she already had void powers even at her first appearance.

and since elves are a horde race, there is no problem in letting forsaken chose unded elf am i right? cause elves are horde for 13 years

So you make a question talking about "human models to the forsaken" to which I respond to with an answer about the human model to the fosaken, and you dishonestly respond to my argument with a "blood elf model to the forsaken" argument. Really? And no, because it muddles the visual identity of the playable race. Forsaken have a defined silhouette.

tell me again why this dumb logic matters, especially when there is a infinity of toys to change race, the model is already shared by factions, there is literally no problem in sharing bewtein races of he same faction

it doesn't matter, he will se a horde player anyway

Using the 'toy' argument is meaningless, because those toys have short durations and long cooldowns, and always disappear on death. Each race in the game have defined, fixed silhouettes.

because void elves are not the same race as other elves, they are literally, elves mutated/changed by the void. Again, wrong, hedcanon, using double standarts, you are a talking contradiction;

So you're saying that if I lose an arm, I am no longer the same race as my family? Again, we have no confirmation whatsoever that being transformed into a void elf is a hereditary change, which is a pre-requisite for it to be considered a new race. Worgen, for example, are a different playable race than humans but are not a different race than humans, since the off-spring of two worgen is a non-worgen human.

what bullshit are you saying? high elves are almost extinct,

Their numbers around the world, i.e., the NPCs, were much, much greater in number than brown orcs pre-Mag'har AR.

your premis is false, therefore your argument is invalid.

It's not false. Answer the question, please.

[Triceron]

You mean the bonus campaign from WC3? By 'nation of Kul'Tiras', do you mean Theramore? Because Theramore was founded by Jaina with survivors from Lordaeron.

Er, Rexxars campaign had you fighting against the Kul Tiran Navy. People from Kul Tiras. Alongside the Lordaeron troops that looked no different from them.

That's how we know they look the same.

And if BFA can introduce a new type of Human that is distinct and still regard them as Human, then we can get a new type of Foesaken that is still Forsaken, whether it be the Calia variation or Sylvanas themed undead Elf. As allied races this is not a problem whatsoever.

[Alanar]

You mean I have not been proven wrong, considering on my original response to you, I wrote nothing but facts: your argument does not work regarding Sylvanas, for reasons I have repeated countless times.
.

Nope, again twisting words. I have been repeating facts over and over again to you! My argument still stand strong tbh and yes you got proven wrong again in this page as well. You are using double standards as I pointed out.
Again.. you quoted me with your nonsense not the other way arround.

You still hold tight to your weak turalyon argument? Dude that argument failed on 3 posters here now. You got called out, why continue argueinf with that? Sylvanas is still forsaken and turalyon still isnt a ligtforged dranei. Army of the light is the name of the group. Thats not a race. Forsaken is a race. Facts dude.

Till this day we are not able to look like Sylvanas or any other examples I provided you, you are not listening. Also I dont believe that your precious void elves deserve any special treatment for that matter. If you think they do.. say now then we know where you stand so we can ignore you.

[Syegfryed]

Repeating a lie does not make it any less of a lie.

you should say that to yourself, since you know, you are lying here

Again, you're stating headcanon as fact. We don't know what process they're going through

.

We know for a fact that is not the same as alleria, its up to you to prove it is

And, once again, by the simple fact that void elves have access to fair skin, heavily implies that they're going by the process Alleria went through.

no, this is your headcanon

Except you are the only one here stating headcanon as fact.

joy joy joy

So you're saying that dark naarus are rare, especially ones that fall naturally to the void? Is that it?

it is said by Locus walker that there are few cases of naaru falling into Void, hell, even normal naarus are rare to find, therefore, it would not be one in every corner to change every elf

It's not a double standard. It's basic logic. "Forsaken" may be the name of the playable race, but as a forsaken player, you play a zombified human that died in Lordaeron. As a race, your character is human.

thats exactly they should add elves and other dead aces, to represent you playing a forsaken, they are doing wrong, you should look like your leaders and reflect your organization

if you don't agree with that, but agre with void elves getting all blood elves stuff because ThEiR LeAdEr HaVe then its double standarts

You, as a forsaken, is a human from Lordaeron. You are not a blood elf from Silvermoon. Forsaken players cannot be blood elves because they're a different race than humans.

you as a void elf, is a elf changed and mutated by void energies, you are not Alleria windrunne. Void elves players cannot be Alleria windrunner because she udnergo a different method of transformation by eating a dark naaru.

How do you know? Or are you stating headcanon as facts, again?

because it is a fact, unless you can proof they are, since you are the one onjecting this information

How do you know she couldn't turn into void form before absorbing the Naaru?

you are saying that, prove it

Just because she didn't, doesn't mean she couldn't. Aside from that, she already had void powers even at her first appearance.

shadow priests already had void powers too, totally pointles, only when she absorbe she get the racial o change form.

because it muddles the visual identity of the playable race. Forsaken have a defined silhouette.

what a lod of horse shit you said here, seems like you are going beyond the double tandarts and entering the hypocyrsi grounds

try to show how "silhoute" means any shit

Using the 'toy' argument is meaningless, because those toys have short durations and long cooldowns, and always disappear on death. Each race in the game have defined, fixed silhouettes.

bull

shit

if differfent RACES of different FACTIONS cAn share silhouettes there is ZERO problems to races of the SAME faction to share that

So you're saying that if I lose an arm, I am no longer the same race as my family?

so, you are saying you are going to do false equivalence now? cute, tell me how cutting ana rmis the same of your body being chnged and mutated son

Again, we have no confirmation whatsoever that being transformed into a void elf is a hereditary change,

it doesn't matter if we have a confirmation or not, they are a different race, changed by void energies, they no longer are what they once were, you can stop with you headcanon

Their numbers around the world, i.e., the NPCs, were much, much greater in number than brown orcs pre-Mag'har AR.

false, unless you can prove that bs

It's not false. Answer the question, please.

it is false, brown orcs, from outland and draenor are bigger in numbers than any HE

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

So, after so many years, we finally have our high elves or what? Or is there something that is missing?

[Ielenia]

Nope, again twisting words. I have been repeating facts over and over again to you! My argument still stand strong tbh and yes you got proven wrong again in this page as well. You are using double standards as I pointed out.
Again.. you quoted me with your nonsense not the other way arround.

Misrepresentations and opinions stated as fact do not disprove me. What I posted was facts, as well. Sylvanas is a different race than the player forsaken. That is a fact.

You still hold tight to your weak turalyon argument? Dude that argument failed on 3 posters here now. You got called out, why continue argueinf with that? Sylvanas is still forsaken and turalyon still isnt a ligtforged dranei. Army of the light is the name of the group. Thats not a race. Forsaken is a race. Facts dude.

People not accepting that their requests require a complete alteration of the playable model's silhouette, just like the "lightforged draenei and Turalyon" example, and therefore being highly, highly unlikely to ever happen, is not me "being called out".

Till this day we are not able to look like Sylvanas or any other examples I provided you, you are not listening.

This is projection, considering I've listened to you, while you have not listened a single time when I laid out the reasons why this idea is highly unlikely to happen.

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you should say that to yourself, since you know, you are lying here

Dude, how arrogant and presumptuous of you to assume you "taught me a word", considering you can't even write correctly in english? Just in this post of yours we have pearls like "differfent" instead of "different", "its" instead of "it's", "aces" instead of "races", "udnergo", "proof" instead of "prove", "standart" instead of "standard", "hypocyrsi" instead of "hypocrisy", "onjecting" instead of... I don't know, "projecting"?

Look at your own weak grasp of English before you arrogantly go around spewing lies about teaching others.

We know for a fact that is not the same as alleria, its up to you to prove it is

So once again you're stating headcanon as fact. And funny how you love to go "it's up to you to prove it"-- sorry, "its up to you to prove it"-- when what I'm doing is offering alternate possibilities while you keep insisting that your headcanon is fact.

no, this is your headcanon

Dude, calling what I'm writing "headcanon" in no say disprove anything I'm saying, considering, as I wrote above, I'm offering alternate possibilities. You're the only one stating opinions as fact.

it is said by Locus walker that there are few cases of naaru falling into Void, hell, even normal naarus are rare to find, therefore, it would not be one in every corner to change every elf

So if you accept that as fact, why did you accuse me of "making shit up" when I wrote exactly that!? Because that's basically all that you've quoted from me before saying "you're making shit up".

thats exactly they should add elves and other dead aces, to represent you playing a forsaken, they are doing wrong, you should look like your leaders and reflect your organization

No, they shouldn't. Because, again, it messes with the visual identity of the playable race. Playable races have fixed silhouettes.

if you don't agree with that, but agre with void elves getting all blood elves stuff because ThEiR LeAdEr HaVe then its double standarts

It's not double-standards. You failing to understand my argument does not make my argument fallacious. This has nothing to do with using another race's skin color, and everything to do with having more than one silhouette for the race. It doesn't matter that the nightborne look like night elves. It doesn't matter that void elves look like blood elves. Because I'm not talking about two separate races sharing a silhouette. I'm talking about a race's OWN INDIVIDUAL VISUAL IDENTITY in the form of their own silhoettes. Each race has their own silhouette.

you as a void elf, is a elf changed and mutated by void energies, you are not Alleria windrunne. Void elves players cannot be Alleria windrunner because she udnergo a different method of transformation by eating a dark naaru.

Alleria eating a dark naaru or not is immaterial to the idea that newly void elves could be undergoing the same process.

because it is a fact, unless you can proof they are, since you are the one onjecting this information

Again... you state headcanon as fact, and now you go "disprove my headcanon". If you cannot, then it is fact. That's not how facts work, dude.

you are saying that, prove it

I'm not making claims of fact. You are. We do not know if Alleria could or could not transform before the end of the questline that ends with her eating the Naaru. Saying either way as fact is dishonest. And you are the only one stating opinions as fact.

shadow priests already had void powers too, totally pointles, only when she absorbe she get the racial o change form.

Two things you didn't think of when writing this weak attempt at 'gotcha': one, are you saying Alleria is a shadow priest, not a hunter? And two, shadow priests get void form earlier in their training instead of later.

if differfent RACES of different FACTIONS cAn share silhouettes there is ZERO problems to races of the SAME faction to share that

The fact you repeat this shows that you're not understanding what I'm writing, here. Either because you don't care to, or because you simply can't. Either way: I am not talking about two races sharing silhouettes.

so, you are saying you are going to do false equivalence now? cute, tell me how cutting ana rmis the same of your body being chnged and mutated son

it doesn't matter if we have a confirmation or not, they are a different race, changed by void energies, they no longer are what they once were, you can stop with you headcanon

It's not false equivalence. Because if the state of being a void elf is not hereditary, then void elves are not a new race, because that means their children would be normal blood elves. And if the state of being a void elf is not hereditary, then it means it makes the elf a "new race" just as much as losing an arm or a leg makes one into a different race as their kin.

If you want to claim as a fact that void elves are a new race (not "playable race", but actual race), then you have to prove your claim. And "they look different" is not sufficient evidence, considering the worgen look a whole lot more different than humans than VEs to BEs, yet are not a separate race.

false, unless you can prove that bs

Seriously? Can you name one brown orc settlement on Azeroth before the Mag'har allied race? High elves have settlements of their own. Brown orcs? I can't think of anything.

[Alanar]

Misrepresentations and opinions stated as fact do not disprove me. What I posted was facts, as well. Sylvanas is a different race than the player forsaken. That is a fact..

Sylvanas was a high elf in life and banshee as undead who claimed her body and eventually forming and calling themselves only as Forsaken. Forsaken is a race you play, like Nathanos he was human does he look anywhere close to the player? Nope, but hes still forsaken. Also you can talk to the dark ranger npc and I think she even speaks as in 'we' forsaken. She used to be a high elf ,But they no longer feel that way as explained. Sylvanas and her ranger have always been very repre for the forsaken as a race. Lillian Voss is one of those now that are representing the Forsaken, which is a good thing imo, but maybe if they upgraded her model and make a female forsaken model cool hopefully that would shift the interest. Anyway you can't blame the players, when Sylvanas and slowely more dark rangers over time were arround for 15 years ofc people want to look like their racial leaders.

Again your Turalyon example doesnt make any sense, because they are 2 seperate races which are both playable.
Lightforged d and human.

The use of Pandaren and Blood elves on the alliance side already made that line very thin, when both look identical on the battlefield with gear on. Allied races happened as well and if you look at visual identity in general then that is already a non issue and besides they will stay horde anyway so that would not suddenly be super confusing or what ever. People look at red text anyway if you were refering to that. Also the playable Orc race is able to change their silhouettes and they are still very visible as orcs for example.

Players should eventually be able to rp or feel more like a dark ranger/sylvanas look as forsaken if you ask me, hell even skeletons should be playable and skeletons in gear look cool as hell. Anyway many dark rangers are still in the horde. Your argument against it.. is just not enough realy.. with slowely more additional costumization added now to the game, I believe it's only a matter of time, but only if the request is there. In the end it's not actually changing the forsaken model in any way, I am thinking of an extra portrait icon on the side like the worgens have in the character creation screen who are able to alter their human appearance as well. The thing I agree to is that undead elves could be as much as a quest for blood elves instead of forsaken, but that is not the point.

[Triceron]

No, they shouldn't. Because, again, it messes with the visual identity of the playable race. Playable races have fixed silhouettes.

Again, false.

1: Worgen do not have fixed silhouettes. They can actively take up a form of another playable race; Human.
2: Some races have customizable options that change their animations or silhouette. Unbent Orcs, Forsaken without bone protrusions, Pandaren with and without tails.
3: Genders are already examples of multiple silhouettes within a race. We don't even consider Male Draenei and Female Draenei as anything other than Draenei.
4: Multiple (allied) races share the same silhouette, meaning distinct or unique silhouettes are not necessary to distinguish any given race. Confusing a Forsaken Elf for a Blood Elf has no more impact than confusing a Mag'har for an Orc, a Worgen for a Human etc. Visual identity is a non-issue when these lines are blurred between multiple, separate playable races.

Some races are shown to have flexible silhouettes through customization or racial choice. The whole fixed silhouette argument hasn't been relevant in years, and much of the additions in BFA onwards has shown us how their whole stance has changed, especially in matters of giving each faction races with unique silhouettes and distinguishing skin tones. Alliance 'High Elf' option would not be a thing if their stance had stayed with the idea that each faction had to be distinct.

[FossilFree]

I think Blood Elves should get San'layn options, it makes more sense. Forsaken should get Alteraci, only undead Alteraci in this case. Basically, tribal-looking options for Forsaken: braids, beards, tattoos, and the like.

[Triceron]

I think Blood Elves should get San'layn options, it makes more sense. Forsaken should get Alteraci, only undead Alteraci in this case. Basically, tribal-looking options for Forsaken: braids, beards, tattoos, and the like.

I'm all for the tribal tats, beards and braids, but I'm not sure why that would be associated with Alterac. The remnants of the Alteraci are nobles-turned-thieves, not exactly the tribal or barbaric sort.