Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Triceron]

It's not a fallacy when it's a fact that the playable forsaken are humans from Lordaeron. And it's a fact that making a forsaken look like a blood elf completely changes the playable race's visual identity.

It is a fallacy that your reasoning assumes Forsaken WILL ALWAYS BE EXCLUSIVELY visually represented as Human. It is a fallacy that you claim races have a FIXED visual identity.

Context, you must remember context of your own argument.

The core problem you are using reasoning and evidence that reaches beyond your subjective opinion that they should stay represented as Humans. One example of your reasoning is that they have always been represented by Forsaken Human, implying they should always be. While this does support your argument, that reasoning also implies it can not be changed and that is simply wrong. It is wrong in context of how Blizzard has relaxed their rules on visual identity AND racial diversity (within a playable race) without stating it publicly. It is wrong in the face of Blizzard diversifying the visual identity of races, such as adding fat and thin humans or trolls that aren't all using the same body type. This absolutely applies to the Forsaken, who are uniquely referred to as a collective and not to any specific race. This is also important to note that the starting zone is now Exiles Reach, and that there are no longer going to be unique starting zones with lore limitations behind them. Sand Trolls can be added as customization because the Troll race is no longer exclusive to being Darkspear Tribesmen.

What you don't understand is we are addressing the reasons you are using, not making a statement ourselves that Blizzard SHOULD open up visual diversity within a race. This is not an attack on your beliefs, it is literally criticizing your understanding of what visual identity really means in WoW today. The context of keeping exclusive visual identity is absolutely meaningless today, by Blizzard's own standards. This is what we are pointing out to you.

The issue is not your belief, the issue is specifically your reasoning is outdated and irrelevant to the changes that Blizzard are making today. The Forsaken have never been exclusive to Humans, the Forsaken are not singularly visually represented by any race (considering we have plenty of non-Human Forsaken NPCS), the Player race Forsaken has customization options that break their silhouettes (Bones, no bones, possible hunch removal in the future). Even the lore states openly that the Forsaken are comprised of a number of different races collectively, which is very unique to them and not to any other playable race in the game. Pointing all of this out is NOT an attack on your beliefs.

Its like if someone said all Orcs shouldn't have straight backs, then that is a belief one can have. However if they say only Thrall can have a straight back because he was raised by humans while other Orcs were not, then that is not a good reason because it doesn't limit or exclude other Orcs from having straight back options. Nothing is wrong with having the opinion to keep Orcs with hunches, but everything is wrong with assuming Thrall can be the only Orc with a straight back because of his unique upbringing. If I point out the fallacy of the reasoning, I am not arguing against the belief that Orcs should keep their hunch exclusively. The point is that being raised by humans has no relevance to Player Orcs having posture customization options. The reasoning is unsound. Since Blizzard has implemented this feature with zero lore explanation, we can infer that Orcs kept a hunched back due to a technical limitations and overlooked customizations, instead of assuming the Orc hunch is a fixed visual identity.

[Alanar]

Races aren't classes and classes aren't races. And you can still recognize which race the druids and the demon hunters are by looking at their forms.

It doesnt matter if you are purely talking about fixed sillhouettes. Being race or class doesnt matter on that front. Your character can even be 100% of the time be an entirely differnt race with toys, so that would be confusing as well of you are refering to visual identity.

Maybe you are just not very clear on what you are refering to. Because a fixed sillhouette is broken when you can change your stance in a barbershop right?

[Yarathir]

1, maybe 2 more patches until blonde hair for Void Elves.

How are you feeling about it?

[Kyriani]

1, maybe 2 more patches until blonde hair for Void Elves.

How are you feeling about it?

I am more concerned about black and white hair myself... though I wouldn't mind a few other colors as well. I'm just not fixated on blonde specifically.

[Varodoc]

They'll give them more hair colours once ALL allied races receive the same amount of attention that core races got. It's a matter of when, not if.

I wonder what the haters will focus on after Void elves have blonde hair... maybe the colour of the lipstick? Or the colour of the in-game racial icons?

[Yarathir]

They'll give them more hair colours once ALL allied races receive the same amount of attention that core races got. It's a matter of when, not if.

I wonder what the haters will focus on after Void elves have blonde hair... maybe the colour of the nail polish? Or the colour of the in-game racial icons?

"nooo you will turn into a blueberry if you enter combat even though most rpers dont enter combat while rping!!!"
"nooo your name will still say VOID elf, it's not real, it's not real!! YOU'RE NOT REAL."

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

You will get your undead elves but they will be Venthyr. Besides, they are glorious. What more could you want from undead elves? A thousand times more interesting than another brand of High Elf.

Not gonna speak for everyone, but... yeah, If we got Venthyr over undead elves, I'm all in. Alternatively, undead/san'layn elves are also popular because as most AR, they are just reskins of existing models, so for most people they are more likely than Venthyr. At the end of the day, most elven variations would simply be more efficient across the board.

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I hope that ends up being the case if Blizzard does decide to go that way. It can be tiring seeing so much arguing back and forth on a topic.

Wanna be hopeful about it, but yeah, I do think how they have revisited the Void Elves from being made purposefully dichotomous to blood elves, to now give them a big overlap of skin tones and eye colors, does suggest a change of philosophy.

The faction war itself can't exist forever on the same form, and maybe a mercenary mode that lifts faction restrictions will happen someday, but who knows.

An Aside about Blood Elves

I really appreciate that there's an overlap between VE and BE where the "Traditional High Elf Fantasy" exists, but I does really make me wish BE's had something more on their end of the spectrum, and while to me that has usually been more undead class unrestricted options, I think I'm also into the idea of bringing fel back to a more prominent place -for example, by reintroducing illidari to BE society- It would bring the Blood Elves full circle just like Legion did with Illidan, with BE players more fel based options not limited to Demon Hunters and most importantly, set up the biggest contrast within a race, between Light Worshipers and Fel users. To actualize Blood Elves both as what they were introduced as and what they became at the end of BC would be swell.

[FossilFree]

If they add Venthyr, I hope they get a Stoneborn form. It could be like a racial version of metamorphosis or if Worgen form was a damage cooldown instead of permanent.

[Edward Wu]

I really hope they add the Maldraxxus gladiator race. I wouldn't mind playing a DK one.

[shoc]

If they add Venthyr, I hope they get a Stoneborn form. It could be like a racial version of metamorphosis or if Worgen form was a damage cooldown instead of permanent.

I would love that, especially since there's also a female Gargoyle model too. If they retain some armor and skin/hair color features while transformed it would be even cooler.

[Traycor]

YOU'RE NOT REAL.

The truth finally comes out.

[Rhlor]

I would love that, especially since there's also a female Gargoyle model too. If they retain some armor and skin/hair color features while transformed it would be even cooler.

look soo cool!!

[FossilFree]

I would love that, especially since there's also a female Gargoyle model too. If they retain some armor and skin/hair color features while transformed it would be even cooler.

Agreed! I especially like the idea of customization options and armor being included.

As an aside, it's interesting that sexual dimorphism has affected the wings more than anything else, with females having wings on their arms and males on their back.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Agreed! I especially like the idea of customization options and armor being included.

As an aside, it's interesting that sexual dimorphism has affected the wings more than anything else, with females having wings on their arms and males on their back.

I mean it's fun because that's mostly because the made model is based off Dreadlords, but the female one from Arakkoa;

[Kyriani]

Wanna be hopeful about it, but yeah, I do think how they have revisited the Void Elves from being made purposefully dichotomous to blood elves, to now give them a big overlap of skin tones and eye colors, does suggest a change of philosophy.

The faction war itself can't exist forever on the same form, and maybe a mercenary mode that lifts faction restrictions will happen someday, but who knows.

An Aside about Blood Elves

I really appreciate that there's an overlap between VE and BE where the "Traditional High Elf Fantasy" exists, but I does really make me wish BE's had something more on their end of the spectrum, and while to me that has usually been more undead class unrestricted options, I think I'm also into the idea of bringing fel back to a more prominent place -for example, by reintroducing illidari to BE society- It would bring the Blood Elves full circle just like Legion did with Illidan, with BE players more fel based options not limited to Demon Hunters and most importantly, set up the biggest contrast within a race, between Light Worshipers and Fel users. To actualize Blood Elves both as what they were introduced as and what they became at the end of BC would be swell.

I guess it's only a matter of time until we find out how Blizzard will handle the allied race customizations. But what you said about the Blood Elves sounds very intriguing! It would be interesting to see both the fel and undead theme added to Blood Elves without class restrictions and how Blizzard might interweave those elements into Blood Elves as a whole. I know some people might complain about fel or undead Paladins but I do agree with you that Blood Elves should have additional thematic options to choose from.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I guess it's only a matter of time until we find out how Blizzard will handle the allied race customizations. But what you said about the Blood Elves sounds very intriguing! It would be interesting to see both the fel and undead theme added to Blood Elves without class restrictions and how Blizzard might interweave those elements into Blood Elves as a whole. I know some people might complain about fel or undead Paladins but I do agree with you that Blood Elves should have additional thematic options to choose from.

Indeed; what's the biggest thing for me is that Fel was such a central theme of Blood Elves when introduced on BC, and it has been slowly eroded over time. But with Legion bringing Demon Hunters as a playable class, it really looped things back to BC in more ways than one.

So it would be great to see BE Illidari returning to Quel'thalas, and Fel usage being respected as part of the BE identity as per Warlocks and Demon Hunters and not something they just got rid of when the Sunwell got reignited.

Pretty much the same for undead skins, but that serves more of a gameplay purpose because I do see undead elves as more forsaken than part of BE society, yet it would be very interesting to see undead elves recognized as both BE and Forsaken lorewise.

And all that stands on the way is the restrictive nature of the Paladin Archetype. Things would be so much more easy if Paladin was conceptualized more as a sacred warrior, like Priests are to spiritual belief, instead of being so limited by one single school of magic/philosophy (Which is kinda also true for Demon Hunters, but even Death Knights make use of both Frost, Blood and Shadow magic besides Death magic)

[Vaedan]

Indeed; what's the biggest thing for me is that Fel was such a central theme of Blood Elves when introduced on BC, and it has been slowly eroded over time. But with Legion bringing Demon Hunters as a playable class, it really looped things back to BC in more ways than one.

So it would be great to see BE Illidari returning to Quel'thalas, and Fel usage being respected as part of the BE identity as per Warlocks and Demon Hunters and not something they just got rid of when the Sunwell got reignited.

Pretty much the same for undead skins, but that serves more of a gameplay purpose because I do see undead elves as more forsaken than part of BE society, yet it would be very interesting to see undead elves recognized as both BE and Forsaken lorewise.

And all that stands on the way is the restrictive nature of the Paladin Archetype. Things would be so much more easy if Paladin was conceptualized more as a sacred warrior, like Priests are to spiritual belief, instead of being so limited by one single school of magic/philosophy (Which is kinda also true for Demon Hunters, but even Death Knights make use of both Frost, Blood and Shadow magic besides Death magic)

Agreed. Blood elves were implemented by pragmatists who by any means necessary rebuild their society. They were notorious for using various sources of magic and that created image of power hungry elves who are not above doing shady things to reach their objective. That image of blood elves was interesting to many. It is indeed natural that their society will now lean more towards light, given it is part of the Sunwell's nature now, but I still feel they lost something which made them attractive and made them more organic fit within the Horde.

[Syegfryed]

You're wrong in that regard

unless they show otherwise, everything else will be just speculation from your part and we stick with what we have for sure, they didn't undergo the same thing, they are not Alleria.

I'm not. You're trying to force "double standards" into my arguments by attempting to shoehorn into my arguments something I never said to begin with. Again, the fact other races share similar silhouettes is irrelevant to my arguments regarding a race's own visual identity.

You are using double standarts because the race visual identity of void elves has already being mixed with another race, they have the visual identity of 2 different races(void and high elves) therefore there is no problem with forsaken having that as well, your argument of silhouette is completely bs

Because those who are accusing me of "double standards" are doing the exact same thing you are doing: trying to inject something I never said into my arguments.

or maybe because you are, indeed, using double standarts, but you are so full of yourself with bias that you cannot see it.

No. It is not. It is "canon source" that Alleria got her power to create portals from the fallen Naaru: "Locus-Walker yells: Seize the power of the portals, Alleria! It can become your weapon!" It is not "canon source" the claim that moment was when Alleria was first able to take on a void form.

you are implying the "newborn power" he said is the portals alone, again, BS

you are shifting goalposts, trying to pass that i didn't said her power to open void portals was fom the void, when that was not the point.

newsflash, the ability to open portals is as new as the ability to transform into a void form, just like the void elves who almost became etheral, they got both racials

saying Alleria already had the voidform is a completely nonsensical headcanon you have and you are tying o paint as possible because "you can refute that" again, appel to ignorance

(1) Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

the other way around is truth as well, like i said.

(2) "Void form" doesn't seem to be that hard a technique to learn and control, considering shadow priests can do it rather early in their careers.

those are completely different things.

(3) The "new powers" Locus Walker was referring to was most likely the powers to open portals, as he pointed out, himself, during the fight.

most likely in your "rumble" opinion, cause is common sense that was ALSO the ability to transform into a void state, because she got imediately after she suck the naaru

Because I taught you that concept.

haha, you sure did

It also doesn't mean she couldn't.

it means, if she could, ti would have being mentioned, or she could have done it before

No, I'm not. The "appeal to ignorance" fallacy means asserting your conclusion as true because there is no evidence to the contrary.

a right you are just "giving hypothesis", thats the difference "hypothesis" let alone you trying to pass those as posible and/or to undermine what we have

Really? You're going to dismiss canon evidence, now? It's right there, black on white: "Locus-Walker yells: Seize the power of the portals, Alleria! It can become your weapon!"

one thing is not the other thing, you are trying to make the whole package coming from her sucking the naaru to be just about the portals, that is just confirmations bias.

The problm you think just the portal ability coming from the naaru, and its everything.

You dismissing canon evidence and asserting your own headcanons as fact does not mean my propositions are based on "literally nothing".

you don't have canon from the nonsenses you said, you are backpedaling and twisting things to fit more, like you bringin the portal quotes thinking you are "giving canon evidence", laughable.

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Indeed; what's the biggest thing for me is that Fel was such a central theme of Blood Elves when introduced on BC, and it has been slowly eroded over time. But with Legion bringing Demon Hunters as a playable class, it really looped things back to BC in more ways than one.

just as a note, their theme in tbc was exactly going against that, with the sunwell being cleaned in the end, so in he very expansion they already had ditch that

[Ardenaso]

Agreed. Blood elves were implemented by pragmatists who by any means necessary rebuild their society. They were notorious for using various sources of magic and that created image of power hungry elves who are not above doing shady things to reach their objective. That image of blood elves was interesting to many. It is indeed natural that their society will now lean more towards light, given it is part of the Sunwell's nature now, but I still feel they lost something which made them attractive and made them more organic fit within the Horde.

I hope at least they command the Light still; I want to see an epic metal scene where a Blood Knight makes a Lightforged Draenei turn inside out

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also, was there any flavor text or comment from Theramore High Elves about Blood Elves joining Horde? they had at least some interactions with them around Warcraft 3. There's High Elf priests helping de-fel Grom; and so I thought maybe they'd get convinced to perhaps fully commit to the Horde as not just part-time allies but permanent allies

[Ielenia]

unless they show otherwise, everything else will be just speculation from your part and we stick with what we have for sure, they didn't undergo the same thing, they are not Alleria.

So you say that "everything is speculation", except your headcanon? You're assuming as fact there is a third method for void elf transformation, despite Blizzard never, ever showing that there is a third method. You can't dismiss my speculation for being speculation, while you assume your own speculations as fact. This is especially damning considering you removed the rest of the argument that lays out the evidence that supports my hypothesis.

You are using double standarts because the race visual identity of void elves has already being mixed with another race,

or maybe because you are, indeed, using double standarts, but you are so full of yourself with bias that you cannot see it.

Are you being intentionally dense now? How many times must I repeat that two races sharing a similar silhouette is immaterial to my argument since that is not something I'm arguing about!? I'm not talking about "races sharing silhouettes", I'm talking about a playable race's own visual identity. You keep attacking an argument I never made and ignore the one I'm actually making.

you are implying the "newborn power" he said is the portals alone, again, BS

Let it be on record that you are ignoring official canon lore and supplanting it with your own head canon of which you have no conclusive evidence of. Locus Walker specifically says "take the power of the portals" so it can "be her weapon" in the very same fight that precedes the "let's test your new powers" line.

you are shifting goalposts, trying to pass that i didn't said her power to open void portals was fom the void, when that was not the point.

But you are using Locus Walker's "let's test your new powers" line as evidence that was the time Alleria acquired the power to take on a void form, completely ignoring that this fight was about taking the fallen naaru's ability to create portals.

newsflash, the ability to open portals is as new as the ability to transform into a void form, just like the void elves who almost became etheral, they got both racials

Could that moment be the moment Alleria also acquired the ability to take on a void form? It could, yes. But Locus Walker's lines in no way supports that idea. And void elves having the Spatial Rift racial in no way, shape or form prove that Alleria got both abilities at the same time during her fight with the dark naaru.

saying Alleria already had the voidform is a completely nonsensical headcanon

Why? Why is it "nonsensical"? You've repeated that claim multiple times, and yet you never explained what makes an explanation that is perfectly logical and consistent with the lore "nonsensical".

you have and you are tying o paint as possible because "you can refute that" again, appel to ignorance

That is not what appeal to ignorance is. An appeal to ignorance is to assert an idea as FACT because there is no evidence against it. It is what you are doing when you say that "it's a fact" that Alleria acquired the ability to take on a void form when she absorbed the naaru. Because there is no evidence against it.

the other way around is truth as well, like i said.

No, it's not. Not in this case. You cannot say something does not exist just because you can't see it. The idea that Alleria may have already known how to transform but did not do so until absorbing the naaru is a valid hypothesis.

those are completely different things.

They are? Prove it, then. Show me the official lore or developer quote that states the two are "completely different things".

most likely in your "rumble" opinion, cause is common sense that was ALSO the ability to transform into a void state, because she got imediately after she suck the naaru

Again, you are ironically engaging in this "appeal to ignorance" fallacy you accuse me of when you state, as fact, that Alleria acquired her ability to transform into a void form the moment she absorbed the naaru, considering there is no official statement dictating so.

it means, if she could, ti would have being mentioned, or she could have done it before

Not really. At no point in the questing campaign in Argus it was required for Alleria to take on the void form. And as for mentioning it, again, why should it have been mentioned? When has Anduin ever mentioned "hey, did you know I can resurrect thousands of people at the same time in the middle of combat?" or Sylvanas saying "hey, did you know I can turn into an incorporeal banshee without losing my physical body?" before demonstrating said abilities?

a right you are just "giving hypothesis", thats the difference "hypothesis" let alone you trying to pass those as posible and/or to undermine what we have

Please read the difference between offering an alternative explanation (i.e. what I'm doing) and asserting an explanation as true while declaring all others as false (i.e. what you're doing).

one thing is not the other thing, you are trying to make the whole package coming from her sucking the naaru to be just about the portals, that is just confirmations bias.

That's not confirmation bias. At all. You're trying to be fancy throwing different fallacy names toward me, but none stick because none applies to what I'm doing, here. What I'm saying is that Alleria transforming into a void form at that moment in time in no way proves as a fact that was the moment she acquired the ability to transform.

The problm you think just the portal ability coming from the naaru, and its everything.

Considering it's the dark naaru itself creating the portals, I think it's not that illogical to think that the ability to summon portals came from the fallen naaru. And as for "everything", that is a claim you have to prove. And so far, you haven't. For all your accusations that I "don't have canon evidence", you so far failed to prove a single shred of evidence that points to the idea that Alleria could only transform after absorbing L'ura's energies.

So far, you have only stated your headcanon that "it's everything" as fact. Zero evidence.

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It doesnt matter if you are purely talking about fixed sillhouettes. Being race or class doesnt matter on that front. Your character can even be 100% of the time be an entirely differnt race with toys, so that would be confusing as well of you are refering to visual identity.

Maybe you are just not very clear on what you are refering to. Because a fixed sillhouette is broken when you can change your stance in a barbershop right?

No, because a hunched orc does not suddenly look like a blood elf, or a goblin, or a troll, or a night elf, or a mechagnome, etc, when he stands straight. An orc still looks like an orc.

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It is a fallacy that your reasoning assumes Forsaken WILL ALWAYS BE EXCLUSIVELY visually represented as Human. It is a fallacy that you claim races have a FIXED visual identity.

Context, you must remember context of your own argument.

I'm honestly starting to have trouble taking you seriously, right now.

You talk about context, yet you remain fixated on the specific, literal meaning of the wording I used on my original response, despite me explaining the context behind it. Multiple times. But when you engage in the same mistake you accuse me of, you refuse to own up to it, hiding behind this "context" excuse while at the same time denying the context behind my argument.