Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Strippling]

snip

I feel like you're putting wayyyy too much importance on fel and it's position within blood elf society. It was literally a phase they went through (and by they I don't even mean all of blood elf society) for a short period, and shortly thereafter they quickly returned to their roots. It's like you're attempting to define them by one phase throughout their entire existence, despite the fact that the phase was short lived and for the most part they returned to their "standard" practices. Yes the fel created a slight physical change (as is apparent in their eyes), but the cultural implications were far less and for the most part their culture has remained the same. Why push so hard for "felblood" options when that was never a part of the blood elven society that are playable, and based on the little exposure they did have to fel it simply resulted in green eyes (not felblood elves). And DH should remain their own separate thing.

Blood elves have other aspects that should take priority over "fel" options. These include farstrider options (tattoos similar to Alleria who was a farstrider, feathers, braided hair options), magister options (tattoos similar to Rommath, runic markings like the box cover art), blood knight options (golden phoenix tattoos??, golden glowing hair??). In addition, dark ranger options should be made available... though I'd be fine with this becoming a forsaken customization option (though logisitcally it'd make more sense to just give BE the options as the model already exists).

[Ielenia]

that is a fact, unless proved otherwise

This is not how facts work, Syegfryed. A fact isn't a fact "because it wasn't proven otherwise". A fact is a fact because it has been PROVEN to be a fact. 1+1=2 is a fact not because people haven't proven that 1+1=11 or 1+1=apple. 1+1=2 is a fact because it has been proven to be a fact.

To say "it's a fact unless proven otherwise" is to state your headcanon as fact. It's to say "I have a magical two-headed invisible pink unicorn living in my backyard that only reveals itself to those it finds worthy. And that's a fact because you cannot prove it otherwise."

Are you being intentionally dense now? cause i literally just said void elf visual identity change, and you are telling me forsaken visual identity can't

again, double standats

Again, no. I'm talking about the silhouettes when I talk about visual identity. You'd know that if you bothered to read my posts in which I repeat the word "silhouette" over and over and over and over again.

the official canon is that she get her voidform and every other major void elf power after sucking the naaru,

Wrong. You're asserting your headcanon as "official canon", because nowhere at all it says that it was eating the fallen naaru's energies that gave Alleria the power to transform. Nothing in the game's lore, nothing in the books, and nothing from Blizzard developer interviews or tweets.

again, your headcanon that she already had voidform and she only got the ability to creat portals -despite both being the void elf signature racials - is just bonkers, you are living in your own dream

First: both void form and spatial rift being the void elf's racial abilities in no way proves that Alleria bot both at the same time from eating the fallen naaru's energies.
Two: again you demean my hypothesis, calling it "bonkers" this time, and yet again you do it without ever explaining why it's "bonkers" or "nonsensical" or "absurd". It feels you're just trying to sweep my hypothesis under the rug. An hypothesis, mind you, that is perfectly possibly within the current canon lore presented so far.

it was, just like others void elves,, unless again, you have something to show otherwise

Again: a fact is not a fact because it hasn't been proven otherwise. A fact is a fact because it has been proven to be a fact. Something you have not done at all so far. You only asserted it's a fact, with zero evidence.

there is no evidence against that because it is the truth LOL.

Again, that is not how "truth" or "facts" work, dude. Truths are not truths because they haven't been proven to be false, but rather because they have been proven to be truths, and nothing in the game proves your headcanon as true.

it is not, again,a hypoteis need to be testable, you need to have something to base off, you hve nothing, you are just making this up to support your argument.

nothing suggest that, nothing implies that, nothing even hint that, evrything lead to he gaining those stuff, including her voidform, aftr the naaru.

Wrong. A fact needs to be testable to confirm it is a fact. A hypothesis is not deemed "false" just because it cannot be tested. An example?
"I hypothesize that no planet within the andromeda galaxy is populated by technologically advanced civilizations."
"Is there any way we can test that hypothesis?"
"No"
"Then all planets within the andromeda galaxy is populated by technologically advanced civilizations."
This is your logic regarding our debate, here. An hypothesis that cannot be tested is just that: a hypothesis, a possibility. If it can be tested, then it stops being a hypothesis and becomes either a false statement or a true statement. I.e., a lie or a fact, respectively.

one is a racial the other is a priest ability, sharing name does't make the thing the same

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Voidform

So what's the relevance that one is a class ability and the other is a racial ability? You're basically saying an ability that transforms you into a void form is not the same as an ability that does the exact same thing, i.e., transforming you into a void form... and not giving a single explanation as to why they're not the same thing. In-game tooltips that describe the mechanical functionality of an ability are not lore.

again false equivalences, her new voidform was something she gained aft sucking the naaru,

Prove it.

thats why they show imeediately after it,

That's not conclusive evidence.

f she already knew she would pop up to fight it,

Not really. At no point Alleria has ever been in grave danger to require using it. In fact, some of her lines indicate that Alleria has at first resisted using using more of the void:
Alleria Windrunner says: "I have not turned away from that path. You know why I resisted."

Also, think a little about what you've said: you're claiming Alleria could only transform after eating the fallen energies of the Naaru. That implies that transforming a blood/high elf into a void elf requires the energies of a fallen naaru, which you have admitted are incredibly rare. According to you, the energies of a fallen demigod are not enough to trigger the void elf transformation, which is what Nhal'athoth is:
Locus-Walker says: "The heart of a demigod. This is no mere token, Alleria."

So how are more void elves coming to be?

you are making shit up trying to disregard something w lready know as truth

NO ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH because the truth has never been stated. You're asserting your headcanons as facts, here. Which is incredibly ironic considering you're dismissing my hypothesis because they're "headcanon". Actually, twice as incredibly ironic considering that's a huge double-standard from you, considering you're constantly accusing me of double-standards here. Erroneously, too, I might add.

everything came from the naary LOL, its the very void elf racials,

"Everything came from the naaru."
"It's the very void elf racials."
Are you saying the void elves are consuming fallen naarus, then?

if she got one she got the other, stop cherry picking

Prove it. Your headcanons are not facts.

[Garfurion]

First: both void form and spatial rift being the void elf's racial abilities in no way proves that Alleria bot both at the same time from eating the fallen naaru's energies.

Alleria could make void portals during the thousand year war story so that ability can just be taught by Locuswalker, and doesn't require eating Dark Naaru's or hearts of Void Reverants like Nhal'athoth.

[Rhlor]

Indeed, and it's not like the fel aspects of the Blood Elves don't fit the Horde, who at large understand the necessity of them, and while Orgrimmar seems to segregate them, Undead had no isses with them. So yeah, with the Illidari being a thing, I would really like if Silvermoon because the centre of fel studies on the Horde, approached on a safe way with lots of counter measures -one would think the Sunwell itself would work as an excellent countermeasure-

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Indeed, it really doesn't feel like BE visually represent some of their core cultural aspects beyond eye color, which is true for both their Fel and Light themes. If it was like humans and they simply had a lot of options it wouldn't be much of a deal, but with both Fel and Light being such marked aspects of BE culture -with them being one of the few races that embraced Fel usage, and even when that has been downplayed, it still remains as an important aspect through Demon Hunters- have so little visual representation.

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The point I am making is against the reductive moralization that Fel is a bad thing and that BE's should have felt ashamed of using it, that they "need" to move past it, when Legion started with the recontextualization of cosmic powers, specifically with Fel used as a tool by two classes now for the common good.

Besides, to say BE's ditched their reliance on Fel when they still have warlocks, doesn't look accurate at all. To pretend Blood Elves just moved on from using fel because the Sunwell was reignited feels like a real whitewash of their story, not because it lost prominence it means it disappeared, specially when we keep seeing BE warlocks showing up, and Blood Mages are far more closer to Warlocks than Mages (reminded these Blood Mages are not "Blood Magic" users like Blood Trolls)

humans and gnomes can be warlocks.

it was rommath the grand magister of quelthalas who said that Fel was no longer used.

[Ielenia]

Alleria could make void portals during the thousand year war story so that ability can just be taught by Locuswalker, and doesn't require eating Dark Naaru's or hearts of Void Reverants like Nhal'athoth.

I'm going by what the game says, and Locus-Walker specifically says to "take the power of the portals".

[Kyriani]

I'm going by what the game says, and Locus-Walker specifically says to "take the power of the portals".

I'm pretty sure that line is telling Alleria to take the power of the portals as in "absorb their void energy", not "take the power to open portals" because we clearly see Alleria already opening Void Portals long before she has her encounters with Nhal'athoth and L'ura.

[Ielenia]

I'm pretty sure that line is telling Alleria to take the power of the portals as in "absorb their void energy", not "take the power to open portals" because we clearly see Alleria already opening Void Portals long before she has her encounters with Nhal'athoth and L'ura.

At what point do we see her creating void portals? The Argus questline was over two years ago, so my memory isn't perfect.

[Kyriani]

At what point do we see her creating void portals? The Argus questline was over two years ago, so my memory isn't perfect.

Before we meet up with Locus Walker, when we're escorting Arkhaan through Mac'aree. He goes all bonkers and she opens a portal into the Void so we can follow him. Then we fight him and kill him. Then Locus Walker shows up. Then Alleria opens another portal that lets you slip through the Void unseen by the ethereals as you gather info from quest clickies and meet them on the other side.

She kinda does it a lot actually.

[Ielenia]

Before we meet up with Locus Walker, when we're escorting Arkhaan through Mac'aree. He goes all bonkers and she opens a portal into the Void so we can follow him. Then we fight him and kill him. Then Locus Walker shows up. Then Alleria opens another portal that lets you slip through the Void unseen by the ethereals as you gather info from quest clickies and meet them on the other side.

She kinda does it a lot actually.

Actually, your first claim she made a portal, the portal was actually created by Arkhaan himself, and you can see it here. The portal persists, as seen here, and you go through it with Alleria, and it is Locus-Walker that pulls you and Alleria out of the void.

As for your second claim, the portal was made by Locus-Walker. Well, we're not actually shown him creating the portal, as when we get there the portal is already there, but it is behind him and not behind Alleria, and Locus Walker wants Alleria and you to go through the portal with him because he wants to "show her something". So all that heavily implies that it was him that opened said portal, not her.

[Kyriani]

Actually, your first claim she made a portal, the portal was actually created by Arkhaan himself, and you can see it here. The portal persists, as seen here, and you go through it with Alleria, and it is Locus-Walker that pulls you and Alleria out of the void.

As for your second claim, the portal was made by Locus-Walker. Well, we're not actually shown him creating the portal, as when we get there the portal is already there, but it is behind him and not behind Alleria, and Locus Walker wants Alleria and you to go through the portal with him because he wants to "show her something". So all that heavily implies that it was him that opened said portal, not her.

Hmmm.. I believe your recounting of events is more accurate than mine. I still don't think Locus Walker's directive to drain the portals meant draining the ability to open portals (that doesn't make sense to me). I think he meant draining the portals to close them so they stop spitting out mobs, not attain some sort of ability to open them. Still your recounting does bring into question just when Alleria gained the ability to open portals. Since I haven't read A Thousand Years of War I can't say for certain what she has done before we meet her in Argus.

[Syegfryed]

This is not how facts work, Syegfryed. A fact isn't a fact "because it wasn't proven otherwise". A fact is a fact because it has been PROVEN to be a fact. 1+1=2 is a fact not because people haven't proven that 1+1=11 or 1+1=apple. 1+1=2 is a fact because it has been proven to be a fact.

it is proven that the ability to transform in a voidforfm is due to her eating the dark naaru, period, you think what we have is nto enough is completely you own problem

Again, no. I'm talking about the silhouettes when I talk about visual identity. You'd know that if you bothered to read my posts in which I repeat the word "silhouette" over and over and over and over again.

you said silhouette isn't the point, then you said is visual identify and now is silhouette all over again, it doesn't matter how you spin it, its pointless, you are using double standards, 2 different races share silhouettes and visual identity across factions, one race already have 2 visual identities, and you are trying to say they can't do that with forsake because ~~reasons~~

Wrong. A fact needs to be testable to confirm it is a fact. A hypothesis is not deemed "false" just because it cannot be tested. An example?

As i said a hypothesis need either a way to test it or need to be based on something, you don't have both, you can't test what you proposed and you have nothing as base

So what's the relevance that one is a class ability and the other is a racial ability? You're basically saying an ability that transforms you into a void form is not the same as an ability that does the exact same thing, i.e., transforming you into a void form...

you are saying they are the same just because they "voidform" come on now, you did better than that

and not giving a single explanation as to why they're not the same thing. In-game tooltips that describe the mechanical functionality of an ability are not lore.

Again, not going to keep playing your game, you can stay with your ~~hypothesis~~ and double standarts, we already got our quota in this topic

[Melsiren]

This thread has been a wild fucking ride.

[Garfurion]

I'm going by what the game says, and Locus-Walker specifically says to "take the power of the portals".

The Thousand year war story is just as much canon lore as the game is, and to me it seems quite clear that Locus-Walker taught her the power to create portals:


He stared into the soulstone again. "Interesting. You may have a unique destiny, Alleria Windrunner. Go
to him. I've taught you how." He returned the soulstone to her.

Alleria hesitated. "I do not know where the Xenedar is."

"Yes, you do. You hold its location in your hand."

It took her a moment to understand. She could see the eredar's work in this stone because the two
stones were linked. The assassin had intended to have them together around its neck.
She didn't need to know where the eredar was, because she knew where the other stone was.

She looked back at the Locus-Walker. "I suppose our bargain is ended, then."

"Oh… I believe we will meet again," he mused.

She reached through the soulstone, used what the Locus-Walker had taught her. The portal to the
Xenedar opened instantly.



The text from the L'ura fight in game is much more ambiguous:

Locus-Walker first yells:

Take her shadow for your own, Alleria! Do as I trained you!

and

Siphon the portal energy! The naaru's weakness will become your strength!


So apparently there already were portals (visible to us or not) and Alleria should siphon them using what Locus-Walker taught her.

He then yells:


Seize the power of the portals, Alleria! It can become your weapon!


To me this sounds like he tells her to use the power of the portals that were already there against L'ura. Not create portals to use against L'ura.

[Alanar]

This thread has been a wild fucking ride.

This thread is more like a 24/7 sibling discussion which never ends.

[Varodoc]

This thread has been a wild fucking ride.

I mean, people don't want to listen to the rules. I have mentioned many times how anti-helfers/velfers should be quiet, because a mod already said a few hundreds pages ago that this is a thread for THEORY-CRAFTING and NOT for shutting down said theories, but people don't want to listen and mods have abandoned this place. If people don't want to listen to rules, you're not going to get a good thread.

If you cut all the pages that have anti-helfers/velfers arguing with people because they are bothered by the skin color of a fictional race, you won't have 1125 pages, you will have 125 pages.

Y'all, this thread started with some awesome potential to discuss things that could make High Elves stand out and worth it as an allied race. The OP has so many cool ideas in it, and there was clearly a lot of effort put into it. While we're not saying this has to be a "pro high elf" only thread, coming into here just to say "it's never happening" and stomp all over each other isn't okay.

It doesn't matter if the devs hypothetically do say that it will never happen. People are still allowed to speculate and have fun with ideas. A lot of you seem to only post in here to destroy that and rile others up, and that needs to stop.

This, by the way, was some 800 pages ago. I'm not surprised mods gave up on this cesspool.

[Vaedan]

you said silhouette isn't the point, then you said is visual identify and now is silhouette all over again, it doesn't matter how you spin it, its pointless, you are using double standards, 2 different races share silhouettes and visual identity across factions, one race already have 2 visual identities, and you are trying to say they can't do that with forsake because ~~reasons~~

Well, they very well may do that, but I wouldn't say you can really compare blood elf/void elf duality to undead human/undead elf duality on Forsaken. You are right that thalassian race have two visual identities, but it also now occupies two factions and elves of each faction have their own theme. Forsaken are exclusive on the Horde and most likely will stay that way.

Secondly, blood elves or void elves can't chose from two completely different models to represent their character, their differences are based on different textures and different features like hairstyles, colors, etc. They are not fundamentally two distinct races, they are variants of the same race on two separate factions. Actually, no race have the option to alter their base modelto something different, the closest one are worgen with their worgen and human form, but even then human form is only for RP and is non-combat only, so you spend like 90% of games content in worgen form. Giving Forsaken option to have blood elf silluette could be possible I guess, I'd have no issue with that lorewise. I find it quite unlikely though, since there are possibly other more easy ways to implement playable undead elf options to the game, like separate allied race, or undead textures on blood elves.

This thread is more like a 24/7 sibling discussion which never ends.

Lol, that is so true. It started as "Alliance kid: I like your elf toys, I want it too. I remember having similar before! Horde kid: NO, those are my elf toys, I don't want to share, Dad Blizzard gave it to me" and now it is "Alliance teen: I like your hairstyle and haircolor, I'd like to try it for myself. Horde teen: NO, you better stay away from my haircolor!"

I can't wait how deep this rabbit hole will take us.

[Rhlor]

I mean, people don't want to listen to the rules. I have mentioned many times how anti-helfers/velfers should be quiet, because a mod already said a few hundreds pages ago that this is a thread for THEORY-CRAFTING and NOT for shutting down said theories, but people don't want to listen and mods have abandoned this place. If people don't want to listen to rules, you're not going to get a good thread.

If you cut all the pages that have anti-helfers/velfers arguing with people because they are bothered by the skin color of a fictional race, you won't have 1125 pages, you will have 125 pages.



This, by the way, was some 800 pages ago. I'm not surprised mods gave up on this cesspool.

I at least saw that the mods banned that user in two occasions with a fascist speech that insulted people.

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Well, they very well may do that, but I wouldn't say you can really compare blood elf/void elf duality to undead human/undead elf duality on Forsaken. You are right that thalassian race have two visual identities, but it also now occupies two factions and elves of each faction have their own theme. Forsaken are exclusive on the Horde and most likely will stay that way.

Secondly, blood elves or void elves can't chose from two completely different models to represent their character, their differences are based on different textures and different features like hairstyles, colors, etc. They are not fundamentally two distinct races, they are variants of the same race on two separate factions. Actually, no race have the option to alter their base modelto something different, the closest one are worgen with their worgen and human form, but even then human form is only for RP and is non-combat only, so you spend like 90% of games content in worgen form. Giving Forsaken option to have blood elf silluette could be possible I guess, I'd have no issue with that lorewise. I find it quite unlikely though, since there are possibly other more easy ways to implement playable undead elf options to the game, like separate allied race, or undead textures on blood elves.



Lol, that is so true. It started as "Alliance kid: I like your elf toys, I want it too. I remember having similar before! Horde kid: NO, those are my elf toys, I don't want to share, Dad Blizzard gave it to me" and now it is "Alliance teen: I like your hairstyle and haircolor, I'd like to try it for myself. Horde teen: NO, you better stay away from my haircolor!"

I can't wait how deep this rabbit hole will take us.

You said it yourself the worgen have human form and wolf form! And now the human form and the wolf form can be customized separately! blizz could do the same with the forsaken that you can choose between undead elf and undead human customize and play with the appearance that you like the most.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316505/...in-shadowlands

[Alanar]

Lol, that is so true. It started as "Alliance kid: I like your elf toys, I want it too. I remember having similar before! Horde kid: NO, those are my elf toys, I don't want to share, Dad Blizzard gave it to me" and now it is "Alliance teen: I like your hairstyle and haircolor, I'd like to try it for myself. Horde teen: NO, you better stay away from my haircolor!"

I can't wait how deep this rabbit hole will take us.

That is exactly what I was thinking and its 100% accurate

[Vaedan]

I at least saw that the mods banned that user in two occasions with a fascist speech that insulted people.

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You said it yourself the worgen have human form and wolf form! And now the human form and the wolf form can be customized separately! blizz could do the same with the forsaken that you can choose between undead elf and undead human customize and play with the appearance that you like the most.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=316505/...in-shadowlands

What I also told is that worgen are nowhere close to the option of elf model on Forsaken. Worgen are meant to be worgen, their human form is just lore flavor and you don't have any means to maintain it in combat, so you can be in your human for only when afking in Stormwind or whatever city is base of operation at the time. Undead elf option on Forsaken would mean there is only one race which can alter its BASE model at will, which is really weird. You enter barber shop as undead HUMAN and leave as undead ELF. That means barbers now can race change? Why not the other races have that option too then? That's something completely different then finally having option to customize your cursed wolf form and former uncorrupted human for at will, since you know, worgen are former gilneans, they only have option to shift back into their original shape. It makes little sense to change the race you were before you turned undead... and playable Forsaken are former humans. The solution is to add undead elves as separate allied race with their own features.

[Rhlor]

What I also told is that worgen are nowhere close to the option of elf model on Forsaken. Worgen are meant to be worgen, their human form is just lore flavor and you don't have any means to maintain it in combat, so you can be in your human for only when afking in Stormwind or whatever city is base of operation at the time. Undead elf option on Forsaken would mean there is only one race which can alter its BASE model at will, which is really weird. You enter barber shop as undead HUMAN and leave as undead ELF. That means barbers now can race change? Why not the other races have that option too then? That's something completely different then finally having option to customize your cursed wolf form and former uncorrupted human for at will, since you know, worgen are former gilneans, they only have option to shift back into their original shape. It makes little sense to change the race you were before you turned undead... and playable Forsaken are former humans. The solution is to add undead elves as separate allied race with their own features.

You know that when you change your faction, you change your race, right?



I think now that you can do something like customizing two characters separately on the same screen as worgen do, it's something that could be done for forsaken.

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it is proven that the ability to transform in a voidforfm is due to her eating the dark naaru, period, you think what we have is nto enough is completely you own problem




you said silhouette isn't the point, then you said is visual identify and now is silhouette all over again, it doesn't matter how you spin it, its pointless, you are using double standards, 2 different races share silhouettes and visual identity across factions, one race already have 2 visual identities, and you are trying to say they can't do that with forsake because ~~reasons~~



As i said a hypothesis need either a way to test it or need to be based on something, you don't have both, you can't test what you proposed and you have nothing as base


you are saying they are the same just because they "voidform" come on now, you did better than that





Again, not going to keep playing your game, you can stay with your ~~hypothesis~~ and double standarts, we already got our quota in this topic

Since the worgen can customize human form and wolf form separately on the same screen, you could do the same with forsaken to customize and choose between undead human and undead elf!