Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ielenia]

it is proven that the ability to transform in a voidforfm is due to her eating the dark naaru, period, you think what we have is nto enough is completely you own problem

Then show the proof. Show me any lore passage that specifically states that Alleria got her ability to take on a void form from absorbing L'ura's energies. Or a developer tweet stating exactly that. You can't, because there is none. This is you stating your headcanon as fact because there is no conclusive evidence against it. That is not how facts and hypothesis work, and I've explained it to you several times.

you said silhouette isn't the point, then you said is visual identify and now is silhouette all over again, it doesn't matter how you spin it, its pointless, you are using double standards, 2 different races share silhouettes and visual identity across factions, one race already have 2 visual identities, and you are trying to say they can't do that with forsake because ~~reasons~~

No, when I'm talking about visual identity I'm talking about the silhouette of the player model, and I've said so multiple times in the past:

That's not the issue. The issue is that this completely changes the character's silhouette and model. It has nothing to do with "amount of work required" and more like messing with the visual identity of the player race. That's like saying we should give player customization to the human race to make them as short and as bulky as the dwarves. Or make orcs be able to be taller and much lankier like trolls.

Challenge? This isn't even a challenge. Draenei have the same silhouette as draenei. Dwarves have the same silhouette as dwarves. Thalassian elves have the same silhouette as thalassian elves. Highborne elves have the same silhouette as highborne elves. Whereas humans do not have the same silhouette as thalassian elves.

Sand trolls do not alter the visual identity of the trolls. They still possess the same exact silhouette. In other words: a troll is still a troll

So you make a question talking about "human models to the forsaken" to which I respond to with an answer about the human model to the fosaken, and you dishonestly respond to my argument with a "blood elf model to the forsaken" argument. Really? And no, because it muddles the visual identity of the playable race. Forsaken have a defined silhouette.

It's not double-standards. You failing to understand my argument does not make my argument fallacious. This has nothing to do with using another race's skin color, and everything to do with having more than one silhouette for the race. It doesn't matter that the nightborne look like night elves. It doesn't matter that void elves look like blood elves. Because I'm not talking about two separate races sharing a silhouette. I'm talking about a race's OWN INDIVIDUAL VISUAL IDENTITY in the form of their own silhoettes. Each race has their own silhouette.

And, interestingly enough, all but one of the quotes above were made in response to you, so you cannot accuse me of "moving the goalposts" since you've been aware of what I'm talking about for at least a whole week.

As i said a hypothesis need either a way to test it or need to be based on something, you don't have both, you can't test what you proposed and you have nothing as base

Wrong. A hypothesis does not need to be tested to be a hypothesis. A claim of fact (i.e. what you have been doing this entire time) is what needs to be tested and tested positive to be a fact. As for the basis of my hypothesis? It's fits in what we know of the lore: we have no confirmation whatsoever that Alleria could not transform prior to taking the naaru's energies.

you are saying they are the same just because they "voidform" come on now, you did better than that

Both abilities infuse one's body with void energies and changes them, granting enhanced power. Hypothesizing that both are similar enough to be the same is as valid as saying they're too different. However, if you want to claim one as fact and the other as false, it's your burden to prove that.

Again, not going to keep playing your game, you can stay with your ~~hypothesis~~ and double standarts, we already got our quota in this topic

Again, there is zero double-standards in what I'm writing here. I'm starting to think you don't know what the term means. Again, prove your case, don't just state your claims are fact.

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IYou said it yourself the worgen have human form and wolf form! And now the human form and the wolf form can be customized separately! blizz could do the same with the forsaken that you can choose between undead elf and undead human customize and play with the appearance that you like the most.

The problem with this is, how Vaedan mentioned: a worgen will be a furry anthro wolf 90% if the time, especially if they're engaged in world content, fighting mobs, considering your human form immediately changes into worgen form the moment your character enters combat and cannot be changed back to human until you leave combat.

A blood elf model for the forsaken wouldn't happen like this. They'd be an undead blood elf 100% of the time. They wouldn't "revert to human forsaken" when entering combat.

I would be more accepting of this if the "forsaken blood elves" looked like the Wretched:


But I'm assuming this isn't what the people are looking for, considering they point at Sylvanas and her Dark Rangers when they ask for "undead blood elves":

[Vaedan]

You know that when you change your faction, you change your race, right?



I think now that you can do something like customizing two characters separately on the same screen as worgen do, it's something that could be done for forsaken.

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Since the worgen can customize human form and wolf form separately on the same screen, you could do the same with forsaken to customize and choose between undead human and undead elf!

Well, you completely miss the fact that this interface for worgen is not to give them different model options, it is meant to provide worgen option to customize their human form, which is there for lore reasons, since all worgen are gilnean humans who managed to master their curse. You don't have the choice of being either worgen or human. You are worgen who can turn into human when not in combat.

Well, obviously I know you race change if you faction change, that's not even what I meant. Read carefuly. I wrote that elf option for Forsaken alters your base model to completely different race, which is illogical as a customization feature.

Forsaken elf is completely different case to worgen. First of all, Forsaken are a group made mostly of undead humans, other races are a minority in their ranks (as opposed to worgen, which ALL were humans before they were cursed). Secondly, elf option being an customization for Forsaken, you would have these options available all the time, so you could change it at will, which is really weird at best. You go to barber shop as undead human and leave as undead elf? I know you can change a lot things now, but there is certain line Blizzard should not cross. That's also the reason I believe undead elves should be either their own allied race, or customization options for blood elves. With being it's own allied race, you'd have access to it's own features, customizations, backstory and you would not be able to "race change" in barber shop. Your character would be forever an elf...

Undead options for blood elves would serve pretty similar problem. You could at will turn undead and not undead, which is weird, but still it's not as weird as race changing via Forsaken elf option. Death knights also have options to not look like undead, so I guess it is more logical to give that option to blood elves if anything. It would be way more easy to implement for Blizzard, since it means just giving undead textures for blood elves, on the contrary to adding whole new model for the Forsaken.

The problem with this is, how Vaedan mentioned: a worgen will be a furry anthro wolf 90% if the time, especially if they're engaged in world content, fighting mobs, considering your human form immediately changes into worgen form the moment your character enters combat and cannot be changed back to human until you leave combat.

A blood elf model for the forsaken wouldn't happen like this. They'd be an undead blood elf 100% of the time. They wouldn't "revert to human forsaken" when entering combat.

I would be more accepting of this if the "forsaken blood elves" looked like the Wretched:


But I'm assuming this isn't what the people are looking for, considering they point at Sylvanas and her Dark Rangers when they ask for "undead blood elves":

Exactly this. I can certainly imagine Blizz adding wretched-like elf features for undead to represent Forsaken consists of other races too. I'm also sure some people would like those options and would play them, but as you said, it is definitely what are people asking for. Players who wanted undead elves in style of Dark Ranger and Sylvanas would not be satisfied with this and would still ask for these options. Just look at void elves. They were meant as a high elf compromise for the Alliance, which find its fans, but the community did not really accepted in a way Blizzard likely expected and continued their request for high elves. Now, after 3 years, we have high elf skin options on void elves and likely other features added in the future when allied races get their turn with new customizations.

Discussing worgen is pointless in this discussion, since there is no choice for the player what model he wants to have on his character. Human for is just another layer of customizations. Some races have tattoos, horns, various stuff in hair, like leaves, feathers, flowers... worgen have human form, but in the end, their worgen form is what matters, since they spend most of the game in that model and are not able to make it any different.

[Rhlor]

Then show the proof. Show me any lore passage that specifically states that Alleria got her ability to take on a void form from absorbing L'ura's energies. Or a developer tweet stating exactly that. You can't, because there is none. This is you stating your headcanon as fact because there is no conclusive evidence against it. That is not how facts and hypothesis work, and I've explained it to you several times.


No, when I'm talking about visual identity I'm talking about the silhouette of the player model, and I've said so multiple times in the past:





And, interestingly enough, all but one of the quotes above were made in response to you, so you cannot accuse me of "moving the goalposts" since you've been aware of what I'm talking about for at least a whole week.


Wrong. A hypothesis does not need to be tested to be a hypothesis. A claim of fact (i.e. what you have been doing this entire time) is what needs to be tested and tested positive to be a fact. As for the basis of my hypothesis? It's fits in what we know of the lore: we have no confirmation whatsoever that Alleria could not transform prior to taking the naaru's energies.


Both abilities infuse one's body with void energies and changes them, granting enhanced power. Hypothesizing that both are similar enough to be the same is as valid as saying they're too different. However, if you want to claim one as fact and the other as false, it's your burden to prove that.


Again, there is zero double-standards in what I'm writing here. I'm starting to think you don't know what the term means. Again, prove your case, don't just state your claims are fact.

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The problem with this is, how Vaedan mentioned: a worgen will be a furry anthro wolf 90% if the time, especially if they're engaged in world content, fighting mobs, considering your human form immediately changes into worgen form the moment your character enters combat and cannot be changed back to human until you leave combat.

A blood elf model for the forsaken wouldn't happen like this. They'd be an undead blood elf 100% of the time. They wouldn't "revert to human forsaken" when entering combat.

I would be more accepting of this if the "forsaken blood elves" looked like the Wretched:


But I'm assuming this isn't what the people are looking for, considering they point at Sylvanas and her Dark Rangers when they ask for "undead blood elves":

Personally, I have no problem with elf customization being given to the forsaken model. But to say that what other users propose such as being able to choose between one mode or another and being able to customize them separately is something possible! There are those who say it can't be done, but the worgen show that they can.

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Well, you completely miss the fact that this interface for worgen is not to give them different model options, it is meant to provide worgen option to customize their human form, which is there for lore reasons, since all worgen are gilnean humans who managed to master their curse. You don't have the choice of being either worgen or human. You are worgen who can turn into human when not in combat.

Well, obviously I know you race change if you faction change, that's not even what I meant. Read carefuly. I wrote that elf option for Forsaken alters your base model to completely different race, which is illogical as a customization feature.

Forsaken elf is completely different case to worgen. First of all, Forsaken are a group made mostly of undead humans, other races are a minority in their ranks (as opposed to worgen, which ALL were humans before they were cursed). Secondly, elf option being an customization for Forsaken, you would have these options available all the time, so you could change it at will, which is really weird at best. You go to barber shop as undead human and leave as undead elf? I know you can change a lot things now, but there is certain line Blizzard should not cross. That's also the reason I believe undead elves should be either their own allied race, or customization options for blood elves. With being it's own allied race, you'd have access to it's own features, customizations, backstory and you would not be able to "race change" in barber shop. Your character would be forever an elf...

Undead options for blood elves would serve pretty similar problem. You could at will turn undead and not undead, which is weird, but still it's not as weird as race changing via Forsaken elf option. Death knights also have options to not look like undead, so I guess it is more logical to give that option to blood elves if anything. It would be way more easy to implement for Blizzard, since it means just giving undead textures for blood elves, on the contrary to adding whole new model for the Forsaken.

nowadays you go to the hairdresser as an old european human and you can go out as a young asian human.

undead elf who want to play the people who ask for them are those who are part of the forsaken and have a lore as forsaken. forsaken are not only undead human. and I repeat the character can change race when they change faction I don't see what the problem is.

if you want to be able to choose to keep human form all the time when you play worgen i will support you!

[Vaedan]

nowadays you go to the hairdresser as an old european human and you can go out as a young asian human.

But you are still human. You can't change human to elf, or to any other race. Your race stay the same. You are altering sub-race, which Blizz showed is acceptable in customizations.

undead elf who want to play the people who ask for them are those who are part of the forsaken and have a lore as forsaken. forsaken are not only undead human. and I repeat the character can change race when they change faction I don't see what the problem is.

I don't know why are you still bringing up faction change? I never talked about it.¨I didn't mean the paid customer service - you can't really take that into discussion, since it is not connected to lore in any way. All I was talking about is that humans =/= elves and since playable Forsaken are meant to be humans, it's quite weird for them to have option to alter their base model. Sure, lorewise, there are non-human Forsaken. For that reason, I suggest an allied race for this group. In that way, you'd avoid that Forsaken as the only race in the game would be able to substantialy alter their base model.

if you want to be able to choose to keep human form all the time when you play worgen i will support you!

Well, if you want to look like human all the time, then you can already play human and don't bother with worgen at all. If you want your character to be non-cursed gilnean, you can just make regular human and make gilneas-style transmog. There is actually really no valid reason for allowing worgen to keep their human for all the time. As a matter of fact, they are worgen and that is their identity now.

[Rhlor]

But you are still human. You can't change human to elf, or to any other race. Your race stay the same. You are altering sub-race, which Blizz showed is acceptable in customizations.



I don't know why are you still bringing up faction change? I never talked about it.¨I didn't mean the paid customer service - you can't really take that into discussion, since it is not connected to lore in any way. All I was talking about is that humans =/= elves and since playable Forsaken are meant to be humans, it's quite weird for them to have option to alter their base model. Sure, lorewise, there are non-human Forsaken. For that reason, I suggest an allied race for this group. In that way, you'd avoid that Forsaken as the only race in the game would be able to substantialy alter their base model.



Well, if you want to look like human all the time, then you can already play human and don't bother with worgen at all. If you want your character to be non-cursed gilnean, you can just make regular human and make gilneas-style transmog. There is actually really no valid reason for allowing worgen to keep their human for all the time. As a matter of fact, they are worgen and that is their identity now.

maybe you like the lore of gilneas and want to live the experience of a gilnean and not a human of stormwind, But you are the one who talks about how they cannot maintain the human form. If you think that it would be fair that they can keep the human form to match the forsaken, that's fine with me.

when you change faction you change race then you can go from being an orc to a human. it makes less sense that forsaken can choose between undead human and undead elf that are part of forsaken.

[Vaedan]

maybe you like the lore of gilneas and want to live the experience of a gilnean and not a human of stormwind, But you are the one who talks about how they cannot maintain the human form. If you think that it would be fair that they can keep the human form to match the forsaken, that's fine with me.

Sorry, but that does not really make sense. Worgen as a race are based on them being werewolves, their ability to shift back into humans is given by their backstory, in which they learned how to control their worgen ferocity. Still, they can't maintain their former shapes and form of the worgen transform them when they are face danger (thus when they are in combat). Some of them embraced their new lives fully and do not shift into humans at all. There is virtually no lore reason to demand 100% time human worgen, that does not make sense. Again, if you want to have non-cursed gilnean, you are free to make regular human and create your own backstory for him/her. There is no difference between regular stormwindian humans and non-cursed gilneans in terms of their models. In the same way, as a human, you can easily pretend to be kul tiran, or dalarani... or even a member of any human kingdom. You have that option in the game already, so there is no need for other race to have these options.

when you change faction you change race then you can go from being an orc to a human. it makes less sense that forsaken can choose between undead human and undead elf that are part of forsaken.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what is your point on this. Faction changes are paid customer service which have nothing to do with anything lore-related. My point was that when it comes to Forsaken, they are indeed lorewise made of several races. Playable undead are humans (well, undead humans) which are told to be major part of Forsaken community. Blizzard made it pretty clear over the years, and while they used dark rangers (undead elves) among their ranks too, majority of Forsaken identity was build on the fact that they are undead humans of Lordaeron. Providing undead elf option to the Horde feels justified for me, I believe Horde players should have that option. I don't think adding another model to the Forsaken is the right way to do, for reasons I explained in my previous posts.

Forsaken elf is just a pandora box, which would resulted in many possible requests and I'm not sure where it would lead. For that reason, I believe undead options on blood elves are lesser evil. Ideal case for me are undead elves as separate allied race. I get you are fiercely opposed to idea of undead customizations for blood elves and I accept reasons for your opinion, even though I do not agree with them on 100%... but I don't really know why separate allied race of undead elves is an issue for you.

[Ielenia]

Personally, I have no problem with elf customization being given to the forsaken model. But to say that what other users propose such as being able to choose between one mode or another and being able to customize them separately is something possible! There are those who say it can't be done, but the worgen show that they can.

The worgen is not exactly a prime example to use, considering you still look like a furry anthro wolf 9/10 you're engaging with world content, and 10/10 times when you're engaged in combat. A "forsaken blood elf"-- and, just to be clear, I'm talking about the straight-back blood elf model, used for Dark Rangers and Sylvanas, here-- would not suddenly and immediately turn into a "forsaken human" the moment they get into combat. They'd remain as a blood elf the entire time.

Just to be clear, as far as my position goes:
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" into an allied race? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" look like the Wretched? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken humans" look like actual blood elves, only pale skin and red eyes? Then we have a problem.

nowadays you go to the hairdresser as an old european human and you can go out as a young asian human.

Well, yes, you can. But here's the thing: your human character still looks like a human character, regardless if you look european, asian, or african. A forsaken character would no longer look like a forsaken anymore if they look like a blood elf.

undead elf who want to play the people who ask for them are those who are part of the forsaken and have a lore as forsaken. forsaken are not only undead human. and I repeat the character can change race when they change faction I don't see what the problem is.

You're making a false equivalence, here. The player character changing race when they switch factions is not something that exists within the lore. Thrall wouldn't suddenly become a human if he decided to defect to the Alliance. Hell, Renzik "The Shiv" is an Alliance goblin and didn't turn into a worgen or gnome when he switched factions. That's a game mechanic.

[Triceron]

You talk about context, yet you remain fixated on the specific, literal meaning of the wording I used on my original response, despite me explaining the context behind it. Multiple times. But when you engage in the same mistake you accuse me of, you refuse to own up to it, hiding behind this "context" excuse while at the same time denying the context behind my argument.

Yes, because there is no point to you making a difference between Navy and Nation. The context is whether Kul Tirans looked human.

The context of your argument is the silhouettes of Undead

You talk about context, yet you remain fixated on the specific, literal meaning of the wording I used on my original response, despite me explaining the context behind it. Multiple times. But when you engage in the same mistake you accuse me of, you refuse to own up to it, hiding behind this "context" excuse while at the same time denying the context behind my argument.

Then you say

Again, no. I'm talking about the silhouettes when I talk about visual identity. You'd know that if you bothered to read my posts in which I repeat the word "silhouette" over and over and over and over again.
.

This is why I hound you on your own use of the word

You literally use it to defend your argument despite knowing I have called you out on your fallacies surrounding silhouettes.

If your argument regarding Visual Identity is about silhouettes then you need to acknowledge Blizzard isn't abiding their own rules on silhouettes. Your reasoning is unsound.

You have been utterly dishonest in your arguments. I caught you again going back to talking about silhouettes despite you trying to defend yourself saying I am picking your argument out of context. The context is RIGHT HERE in your own quote! YOU are saying your argument about visual identity is about the silhouettes!

Silhouettes to certain races are not fixed. They are absolutely customizable now. There is no reason Undead should stay exclusive to any silhouette, considering they already aren't.

[Rhlor]

Sorry, but that does not really make sense. Worgen as a race are based on them being werewolves, their ability to shift back into humans is given by their backstory, in which they learned how to control their worgen ferocity. Still, they can't maintain their former shapes and form of the worgen transform them when they are face danger (thus when they are in combat). Some of them embraced their new lives fully and do not shift into humans at all. There is virtually no lore reason to demand 100% time human worgen, that does not make sense. Again, if you want to have non-cursed gilnean, you are free to make regular human and create your own backstory for him/her. There is no difference between regular stormwindian humans and non-cursed gilneans in terms of their models. In the same way, as a human, you can easily pretend to be kul tiran, or dalarani... or even a member of any human kingdom. You have that option in the game already, so there is no need for other race to have these options.




I'm sorry, but I have no idea what is your point on this. Faction changes are paid customer service which have nothing to do with anything lore-related. My point was that when it comes to Forsaken, they are indeed lorewise made of several races. Playable undead are humans (well, undead humans) which are told to be major part of Forsaken community. Blizzard made it pretty clear over the years, and while they used dark rangers (undead elves) among their ranks too, majority of Forsaken identity was build on the fact that they are undead humans of Lordaeron. Providing undead elf option to the Horde feels justified for me, I believe Horde players should have that option. I don't think adding another model to the Forsaken is the right way to do, for reasons I explained in my previous posts.

Forsaken elf is just a pandora box, which would resulted in many possible requests and I'm not sure where it would lead. For that reason, I believe undead options on blood elves are lesser evil. Ideal case for me are undead elves as separate allied race. I get you are fiercely opposed to idea of undead customizations for blood elves and I accept reasons for your opinion, even though I do not agree with them on 100%... but I don't really know why separate allied race of undead elves is an issue for you.

I am saying that it is not impossible to do it, it is not something that takes excessive work, if they can do it with the worgen they can do the same with the forsaken. the undead elf who want to play those who ask are part of the forsaken.

Now tell me what are your reasons why you don't like this idea. also if you give undead elf to blood elves it would be very bad in regards to lore and you would also have undead paladin.

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The worgen is not exactly a prime example to use, considering you still look like a furry anthro wolf 9/10 you're engaging with world content, and 10/10 times when you're engaged in combat. A "forsaken blood elf"-- and, just to be clear, I'm talking about the straight-back blood elf model, used for Dark Rangers and Sylvanas, here-- would not suddenly and immediately turn into a "forsaken human" the moment they get into combat. They'd remain as a blood elf the entire time.

Just to be clear, as far as my position goes:
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" into an allied race? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" look like the Wretched? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken humans" look like actual blood elves, only pale skin and red eyes? Then we have a problem.


Well, yes, you can. But here's the thing: your human character still looks like a human character, regardless if you look european, asian, or african. A forsaken character would no longer look like a forsaken anymore if they look like a blood elf.


You're making a false equivalence, here. The player character changing race when they switch factions is not something that exists within the lore. Thrall wouldn't suddenly become a human if he decided to defect to the Alliance. Hell, Renzik "The Shiv" is an Alliance goblin and didn't turn into a worgen or gnome when he switched factions. That's a game mechanic.

What is the explanation in the tradition to go from African human to Asian human?

What I'm talking about is that it can be done mechanically! and it is proven that it can be done thanks to the worgen! that you can customize two different models on the same screen is something that is there!
I think it could be done with forsaken and many people would be happy
I would like to know what the problem is?

[Vaedan]

What is the explanation in the tradition to go from African human to Asian human?

What I'm talking about is that it can be done mechanically! and it is proven that it can be done thanks to the worgen! that you can customize two different models on the same screen is something that is there!
I think it could be done with forsaken and many people would be happy
I would like to know what the problem is?

Well, the problem is that in case of worgen, it is used as a customization option for your character. You use both appearances actually, one on your worgen form and the second for your human form. While your worgen form is dominant and you use it most of time, it is fair to customize your human form, since you have ability to transform into one. In the end, Blizzard does not need to create anything new for worgen human forms, they just baked in existing human customization for that separate worgen form. End of story.

What you suggest is straight up swapping base character model with something completely different. The problem is that needs of undead elves does not end with the blood elf model on the Forsaken. They'd eventually need another features, like hairstyles, skin tones, etc., since you just can't copy Forsaken features to blood elves, because, surprise, they have different model so Blizz need to adjust these features for elf model or create new one. In that matter, why just not add new allied race, which have the same result of providing undead elf fantasy for the Horde, without possible side effects in terms of bugs and possible character customization chaos?

[Rhlor]

Well, I think there are better ways to implement that. My issues with that:
- Forsaken would be the only race which can alter their base model. It could easily snowball into community demanding so many other options which could result in a mess in character options. You know, even Kul Tirans are their own allied race and are not another model variant for humans, DESPITE BEING JUST HUMANS, but hardened by harsh environments.
- I don't really like the idea of a thing so fundamentally important to your character, as a race, to be changed so easily. Yes, undead are kind of race (I'd describe it more as a condition), they clearly made their own society and culture, but I don't think it is good idea to mix classic undead model and blood elf model in one race. It makes blood elves even less unique and priviledge Forsaken among other playable races
- Worgen customization was lately pretty much bugged, there were severe issues with that when patch went live, so I guess it is not that easy to implement, but I can't really tell, I'm not expert on this matter. I imagine that adding option to alter base character models could eventually lead into various buggs. I don't know if you noticed, but even now, if you make forsaken with the non-decayed skin, you still have holes in your cloaks in a place where Forsaken used to have their spine bones exposed. The fact that Blizz can't really handle separate worgen customizations and new Forsaken features does not really make me really happy about them experimenting with more base models on one race. On the other hand, making brand new race with specific features or swapping new skin on existing race is something we've seen they can do easily.

Having undead elf allied race is the best possible scenario because:
- You provide Horde players a fantasy they've been asking for years
- As an allied race, they'd get their own specific thematics and features, thus letting Forsaken and Blood elves being unique in their own way, not dilluting their features
- You'd avoid the mess of having more base models on one race. Undead elves will always stay undead elves.
- Lorewise, they could be part of Forsaken easily. Dark Irons are separate allied race, yet they are united within the Alliance under Council of Three Hammers in the same way as Bronzebeards and Wildhammers. They could essentialy implement undead elf allied race in the same logic as they did Dark Irons.

On this matter, I'm actually on the same boat as Ielenia.



I'd only add that adding forsaken elves which looks like wretched (use the same model as regular forsaken) would probably result in quite a lot of players not really satisfied with these options and would still request Sylvanas-style undead elves.

What could the community demand? they would have to be alternate models of a group living in the same society.
At this moment I can think of broken and draenei, and the truth is if someone wants to play broken it would be good if they could.

the blood elves are no longer unique our model all our batteries and almost all our eye colors have the void elves too. at least the undead elf of the forsaken would have unique skin and eye colors.

forsaken are not a race, they are a society of different types of undead.

It doesn't bother me that they have an allied race. but to say that what another user proposed as that forsaken players can choose between two models is impossible is what I do not agree with. I think it is something that can be done.

on the other hand I still don't understand why we discussed these things in the high elf thread

[Vaedan]

What could the community demand? they would have to be alternate models of a group living in the same society.
At this moment I can think of broken and draenei, and the truth is if someone wants to play broken it would be good if they could.

Demand is for playable undead elves. As usual, there are many opinions how it should be implemented, since everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

the blood elves are no longer unique our model all our batteries and almost all our eye colors have the void elves too. at least the undead elf of the forsaken would have unique skin and eye colors.

Not true. Void elves got majority of blood elf skin tones, but their eye colors are not exactly the same. They are really similar, but not the same and blood elves still keep their green and gold eyes exclusive for them. There are still many things in which are blood elves different to void elves at the moment - hairstyles, hair colors, facial hairs, jewelery. I agree blood elves did not get that many options as some other races did, like night elves or dwarves. Scars and tattoos would be really appropriate features for them.

Honestly, don't forget that blue colors were a void elf thing before and it was mostly used to differentiate them from blood elves, yet blood elves got quite a lot options on blue eye and hair colors. While these are not the exact same tones from void elves, it still resulted into blood elves breaking into void elf visual fantasy in the same way void elves broke into blood elf visual fantasy when they got their fair skins. I don't say it is bad, I actually don't mind these options on blood elves at all, but I just think it is unfair to say that blood elves are the only one who lost their unique features, while it applies to void elves as well, in a lesser way.

forsaken are not a race, they are a society of different types of undead.

It doesn't bother me that they have an allied race. but to say that what another user proposed as that forsaken players can choose between two models is impossible is what I do not agree with. I think it is something that can be done.

Sure, it is not impossible. I agree something can be done and there are several ways to implement them. We can only discuss what way is most appropriate.

on the other hand I still don't understand why we discussed these things in the high elf thread

Well, no offense, but you are the one who always heat up the discussion in the slightest sign of the topic of san'layn or undead elves. If you don't like to discuss it, don't bring it up to the discussion.

Also, this thread turned into a some kind of united thalassian discussion, so I guess it is OK to discuss san'layn or undead elves too, but I agree that this discussion evolved into something which is probably not fitting into this thread.

[Ielenia]

What is the explanation in the tradition to go from African human to Asian human?

It doesn't matter. I'm not talking about skin colors. That was never in question.

What I'm talking about is that it can be done mechanically!

It doesn't matter. I'm not talking about what can or cannot be mechanically done. That was never in question.

and it is proven that it can be done thanks to the worgen! that you can customize two different models on the same screen is something that is there!

The worgen are forced to transform into worgen form the moment they enter combat, hence why they're not a valid example for the claim that "worgen can do this, so could the forsaken", considering that implies that the "blood elf forsaken" would turn into "human forsaken" the moment they enter combat.

I think it could be done with forsaken and many people would be happy
I would like to know what the problem is?

The problem comes with muddling the visual identity of the playable race, as being a "straight back, pale, red-eyed blood elf" is a complete departure of the race's already established silhouette. In that term, it's like giving humans the customization options to look exactly like dwarves, as short and stocky as they are. Or the ability for orcs to look exactly like trolls. Worgen have a fixed silhouette: they're furry anthro wolves, because regardless if you want to stay as human as much as possible or not, you will always look like a worgen when you're engaged in PvP or PvE fights. A "blood elf forsaken" will not be forced to be a "human forsaken" when they enter combat.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, because there is no point to you making a difference between Navy and Nation. The context is whether Kul Tirans looked human.

And yet there is a whole difference between "part of the navy" and "the entirety of the nation". That's like saying you've seen the whole house after you've seen only the garage.

You literally use it to defend your argument despite knowing I have called you out on your fallacies surrounding silhouettes.

The only "fallacies" you claim exist is because people keep saying "void elves and blood elves already look the same". And that is not what I'm talking about.

If your argument regarding Visual Identity is about silhouettes then you need to acknowledge Blizzard isn't abiding their own rules on silhouettes. Your reasoning is unsound.

But they are. And I've explained why.

Silhouettes to certain races are not fixed. They are absolutely customizable now.

To an extent. An orc still looks like an orc, straight back or hunched. A troll still looks like a troll, Darkspear or Sandfury. A night elf still looks like a night elf, long thick ears or short thin ears.

Your argument basically means "hey, I can change the size of my night elf's ears, that means Blizzard should have no problems allowing my night elf to look like a dwarf!"

[Triceron]

What could the community demand? they would have to be alternate models of a group living in the same society.
At this moment I can think of broken and draenei, and the truth is if someone wants to play broken it would be good if they could.

Broken is definitely the biggest option, but beyond that there is plenty of customization to be had.

Thin humans have been pretty big demand since we saw the Kul Tirans, and people have have been asking for that.

Fat Draenei options has also been something suggested on these boards, just a bigger belly to go with all the brawn already present on the Draenei. There's plenty of proportional change stuff that could be applied all around, taller Dwarves to better represent Wildhammer or Worgen with Tails or even Elves with shorter ears. We *may* even go as far as suggesting bladefists for Orcs.

- - - Updated - - -

And yet there is a whole difference between "part of the navy" and "the entirety of the nation". That's like saying you've seen the whole house after you've seen only the garage.

Right. You are absolutely right. I made that mistake.

So I ask you why you think the difference of the house and the garage is important when your question is 'How do you know the family living there look human?'

The only "fallacies" you claim exist is because people keep saying "void elves and blood elves already look the same".

This is one of your problems. You are arguing with so many different people that you are lumping all arguments against you as one.

I've pointed out Worgen. You STILL have not addressed this properly in the context of a race that actively breaks their own silhouette. You simply dismiss it using statistics that you completely made up. 9/10 they're in Worgen form, what does that matter when the point is they can BREAK the silhouette of their form and take up the look of another race! That is the whole POINT of your argument, that a race should maintain one singular silhouette and not look like any other race. And the Worgen has TWO different forms it can take up at will!

But they are. And I've explained why.

And each one of your explanations has been refuted easily by Blizzard's own examples of customization.

To an extent. An orc still looks like an orc, straight back or hunched. A troll still looks like a troll, Darkspear or Sandfury. A night elf still looks like a night elf, long thick ears or short thin ears.

Your argument basically means "hey, I can change the size of my night elf's ears, that means Blizzard should have no problems allowing my night elf to look like a dwarf!"

If Night Elves and Dwarves were main races mentioned under the Forsaken, then yes it would make sense. Just like Broken would make sense for the Draenei.

Both Human and Elves are specific to the Forsaken. From a lore perspective, it absolutely makes sense.

If your issue is the 'barbershop' then honestly you have nothing to worry about since plastic surgery to the point of faction/race changing already exists as a service beyond that.

[Rhlor]

Broken is definitely the biggest option, but beyond that there is plenty of customization to be had.

Thin humans have been pretty big demand since we saw the Kul Tirans, and people have have been asking for that.

Fat Draenei options has also been something suggested on these boards, just a bigger belly to go with all the brawn already present on the Draenei. There's plenty of proportional change stuff that could be applied all around, taller Dwarves to better represent Wildhammer or Worgen with Tails or even Elves with shorter ears. We *may* even go as far as suggesting bladefists for Orcs.

If people want to play slim kultiran I think it is good that they have the option.
for my part I am not going to continue contaminating the high elf thread with this discussion create a dark ranger thread if you want to discuss this issue you can do it there
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ion-Megathread

[Edoll]

If people want to play slim kultiran I think it is good that they have the option.
for my part I am not going to continue contaminating the high elf thread with this discussion create a dark ranger thread if you want to discuss this issue you can do it there
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ion-Megathread

Thank you for making a separate thread. I mean that sincerely.

[Rhlor]

Thank you for making a separate thread. I mean that sincerely.

I think it is the best if people want to talk about that topic, now they can do in the other thread

[Ielenia]

Right. You are absolutely right. I made that mistake.

So I ask you why you think the difference of the house and the garage is important when your question is 'How do you know the family living there look human?'

No, that is not my question. I never asked about the family being in that garage. I made a comparison, with the whole population of Kul'Tiras being the house, and the part of the navy you saw in Warcraft 3 being the garage.

This is one of your problems. You are arguing with so many different people that you are lumping all arguments against you as one.

I've pointed out Worgen. You STILL have not addressed this properly in the context of a race that actively breaks their own silhouette. You simply dismiss it using statistics that you completely made up. 9/10 they're in Worgen form, what does that matter when the point is they can BREAK the silhouette of their form and take up the look of another race! That is the whole POINT of your argument, that a race should maintain one singular silhouette and not look like any other race. And the Worgen has TWO different forms it can take up at will!

Did I make up the statistic that a worgen player will be a furry anthro wolf 100% of the time when engaged in combat? You accuse me of "dismissing" things, but you are dismissing things as well. You are dismissing the fact that worgens cannot look like anything but worgens when engaged in combat, whereas a "blood elf forsaken" would look like a blood elf 100% of the time. They wouldn't instantly change into a forsaken human the moment they get into combat. That is a crucial detail that helps preserve the worgen's visual identity.

If Night Elves and Dwarves were main races mentioned under the Forsaken, then yes it would make sense. Just like Broken would make sense for the Draenei.

If you're going by that argument, remember that blood elves are not mentioned as one of the forsaken's "main races". Humans are: "While comprised primarily of undead humans, the Forsaken are a diverse faction that include several different races at their biological core. However, they have all assumed their racial identity as "Forsaken," due to their shared goals and loyalties."

Both Human and Elves are specific to the Forsaken. From a lore perspective, it absolutely makes sense.

And gnomes. And night elves. But either way, it's irrelevant. The fact that the forsaken is comprised of "mostly humans" is what you should be concerned about.

If your issue is the 'barbershop'

It's not, and I can't even understand how you could possibly have gotten that idea.

[FossilFree]

This thread is about High Elves. Since High Elves are now found in both the Blood Elf variety and the Void Elf variety, it is perfectly reasonable to discuss Blood Elves receiving their overdue San'layn options in this thread.

[Shadesmarr]

Some of the void elf customizations make them look exactly like the High elves. I think they fell into the same category as Wildhammer Dwarves.