Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Agreed! I especially like the idea of customization options and armor being included.

As an aside, it's interesting that sexual dimorphism has affected the wings more than anything else, with females having wings on their arms and males on their back.

I mean it's fun because that's mostly because the made model is based off Dreadlords, but the female one from Arakkoa;

[Kyriani]

Wanna be hopeful about it, but yeah, I do think how they have revisited the Void Elves from being made purposefully dichotomous to blood elves, to now give them a big overlap of skin tones and eye colors, does suggest a change of philosophy.

The faction war itself can't exist forever on the same form, and maybe a mercenary mode that lifts faction restrictions will happen someday, but who knows.

An Aside about Blood Elves

I really appreciate that there's an overlap between VE and BE where the "Traditional High Elf Fantasy" exists, but I does really make me wish BE's had something more on their end of the spectrum, and while to me that has usually been more undead class unrestricted options, I think I'm also into the idea of bringing fel back to a more prominent place -for example, by reintroducing illidari to BE society- It would bring the Blood Elves full circle just like Legion did with Illidan, with BE players more fel based options not limited to Demon Hunters and most importantly, set up the biggest contrast within a race, between Light Worshipers and Fel users. To actualize Blood Elves both as what they were introduced as and what they became at the end of BC would be swell.

I guess it's only a matter of time until we find out how Blizzard will handle the allied race customizations. But what you said about the Blood Elves sounds very intriguing! It would be interesting to see both the fel and undead theme added to Blood Elves without class restrictions and how Blizzard might interweave those elements into Blood Elves as a whole. I know some people might complain about fel or undead Paladins but I do agree with you that Blood Elves should have additional thematic options to choose from.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I guess it's only a matter of time until we find out how Blizzard will handle the allied race customizations. But what you said about the Blood Elves sounds very intriguing! It would be interesting to see both the fel and undead theme added to Blood Elves without class restrictions and how Blizzard might interweave those elements into Blood Elves as a whole. I know some people might complain about fel or undead Paladins but I do agree with you that Blood Elves should have additional thematic options to choose from.

Indeed; what's the biggest thing for me is that Fel was such a central theme of Blood Elves when introduced on BC, and it has been slowly eroded over time. But with Legion bringing Demon Hunters as a playable class, it really looped things back to BC in more ways than one.

So it would be great to see BE Illidari returning to Quel'thalas, and Fel usage being respected as part of the BE identity as per Warlocks and Demon Hunters and not something they just got rid of when the Sunwell got reignited.

Pretty much the same for undead skins, but that serves more of a gameplay purpose because I do see undead elves as more forsaken than part of BE society, yet it would be very interesting to see undead elves recognized as both BE and Forsaken lorewise.

And all that stands on the way is the restrictive nature of the Paladin Archetype. Things would be so much more easy if Paladin was conceptualized more as a sacred warrior, like Priests are to spiritual belief, instead of being so limited by one single school of magic/philosophy (Which is kinda also true for Demon Hunters, but even Death Knights make use of both Frost, Blood and Shadow magic besides Death magic)

[Vaedan]

Indeed; what's the biggest thing for me is that Fel was such a central theme of Blood Elves when introduced on BC, and it has been slowly eroded over time. But with Legion bringing Demon Hunters as a playable class, it really looped things back to BC in more ways than one.

So it would be great to see BE Illidari returning to Quel'thalas, and Fel usage being respected as part of the BE identity as per Warlocks and Demon Hunters and not something they just got rid of when the Sunwell got reignited.

Pretty much the same for undead skins, but that serves more of a gameplay purpose because I do see undead elves as more forsaken than part of BE society, yet it would be very interesting to see undead elves recognized as both BE and Forsaken lorewise.

And all that stands on the way is the restrictive nature of the Paladin Archetype. Things would be so much more easy if Paladin was conceptualized more as a sacred warrior, like Priests are to spiritual belief, instead of being so limited by one single school of magic/philosophy (Which is kinda also true for Demon Hunters, but even Death Knights make use of both Frost, Blood and Shadow magic besides Death magic)

Agreed. Blood elves were implemented by pragmatists who by any means necessary rebuild their society. They were notorious for using various sources of magic and that created image of power hungry elves who are not above doing shady things to reach their objective. That image of blood elves was interesting to many. It is indeed natural that their society will now lean more towards light, given it is part of the Sunwell's nature now, but I still feel they lost something which made them attractive and made them more organic fit within the Horde.

[Syegfryed]

You're wrong in that regard

unless they show otherwise, everything else will be just speculation from your part and we stick with what we have for sure, they didn't undergo the same thing, they are not Alleria.

I'm not. You're trying to force "double standards" into my arguments by attempting to shoehorn into my arguments something I never said to begin with. Again, the fact other races share similar silhouettes is irrelevant to my arguments regarding a race's own visual identity.

You are using double standarts because the race visual identity of void elves has already being mixed with another race, they have the visual identity of 2 different races(void and high elves) therefore there is no problem with forsaken having that as well, your argument of silhouette is completely bs

Because those who are accusing me of "double standards" are doing the exact same thing you are doing: trying to inject something I never said into my arguments.

or maybe because you are, indeed, using double standarts, but you are so full of yourself with bias that you cannot see it.

No. It is not. It is "canon source" that Alleria got her power to create portals from the fallen Naaru: "Locus-Walker yells: Seize the power of the portals, Alleria! It can become your weapon!" It is not "canon source" the claim that moment was when Alleria was first able to take on a void form.

you are implying the "newborn power" he said is the portals alone, again, BS

you are shifting goalposts, trying to pass that i didn't said her power to open void portals was fom the void, when that was not the point.

newsflash, the ability to open portals is as new as the ability to transform into a void form, just like the void elves who almost became etheral, they got both racials

saying Alleria already had the voidform is a completely nonsensical headcanon you have and you are tying o paint as possible because "you can refute that" again, appel to ignorance

(1) Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

the other way around is truth as well, like i said.

(2) "Void form" doesn't seem to be that hard a technique to learn and control, considering shadow priests can do it rather early in their careers.

those are completely different things.

(3) The "new powers" Locus Walker was referring to was most likely the powers to open portals, as he pointed out, himself, during the fight.

most likely in your "rumble" opinion, cause is common sense that was ALSO the ability to transform into a void state, because she got imediately after she suck the naaru

Because I taught you that concept.

haha, you sure did

It also doesn't mean she couldn't.

it means, if she could, ti would have being mentioned, or she could have done it before

No, I'm not. The "appeal to ignorance" fallacy means asserting your conclusion as true because there is no evidence to the contrary.

a right you are just "giving hypothesis", thats the difference "hypothesis" let alone you trying to pass those as posible and/or to undermine what we have

Really? You're going to dismiss canon evidence, now? It's right there, black on white: "Locus-Walker yells: Seize the power of the portals, Alleria! It can become your weapon!"

one thing is not the other thing, you are trying to make the whole package coming from her sucking the naaru to be just about the portals, that is just confirmations bias.

The problm you think just the portal ability coming from the naaru, and its everything.

You dismissing canon evidence and asserting your own headcanons as fact does not mean my propositions are based on "literally nothing".

you don't have canon from the nonsenses you said, you are backpedaling and twisting things to fit more, like you bringin the portal quotes thinking you are "giving canon evidence", laughable.

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Indeed; what's the biggest thing for me is that Fel was such a central theme of Blood Elves when introduced on BC, and it has been slowly eroded over time. But with Legion bringing Demon Hunters as a playable class, it really looped things back to BC in more ways than one.

just as a note, their theme in tbc was exactly going against that, with the sunwell being cleaned in the end, so in he very expansion they already had ditch that

[Ardenaso]

Agreed. Blood elves were implemented by pragmatists who by any means necessary rebuild their society. They were notorious for using various sources of magic and that created image of power hungry elves who are not above doing shady things to reach their objective. That image of blood elves was interesting to many. It is indeed natural that their society will now lean more towards light, given it is part of the Sunwell's nature now, but I still feel they lost something which made them attractive and made them more organic fit within the Horde.

I hope at least they command the Light still; I want to see an epic metal scene where a Blood Knight makes a Lightforged Draenei turn inside out

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also, was there any flavor text or comment from Theramore High Elves about Blood Elves joining Horde? they had at least some interactions with them around Warcraft 3. There's High Elf priests helping de-fel Grom; and so I thought maybe they'd get convinced to perhaps fully commit to the Horde as not just part-time allies but permanent allies

[Ielenia]

unless they show otherwise, everything else will be just speculation from your part and we stick with what we have for sure, they didn't undergo the same thing, they are not Alleria.

So you say that "everything is speculation", except your headcanon? You're assuming as fact there is a third method for void elf transformation, despite Blizzard never, ever showing that there is a third method. You can't dismiss my speculation for being speculation, while you assume your own speculations as fact. This is especially damning considering you removed the rest of the argument that lays out the evidence that supports my hypothesis.

You are using double standarts because the race visual identity of void elves has already being mixed with another race,

or maybe because you are, indeed, using double standarts, but you are so full of yourself with bias that you cannot see it.

Are you being intentionally dense now? How many times must I repeat that two races sharing a similar silhouette is immaterial to my argument since that is not something I'm arguing about!? I'm not talking about "races sharing silhouettes", I'm talking about a playable race's own visual identity. You keep attacking an argument I never made and ignore the one I'm actually making.

you are implying the "newborn power" he said is the portals alone, again, BS

Let it be on record that you are ignoring official canon lore and supplanting it with your own head canon of which you have no conclusive evidence of. Locus Walker specifically says "take the power of the portals" so it can "be her weapon" in the very same fight that precedes the "let's test your new powers" line.

you are shifting goalposts, trying to pass that i didn't said her power to open void portals was fom the void, when that was not the point.

But you are using Locus Walker's "let's test your new powers" line as evidence that was the time Alleria acquired the power to take on a void form, completely ignoring that this fight was about taking the fallen naaru's ability to create portals.

newsflash, the ability to open portals is as new as the ability to transform into a void form, just like the void elves who almost became etheral, they got both racials

Could that moment be the moment Alleria also acquired the ability to take on a void form? It could, yes. But Locus Walker's lines in no way supports that idea. And void elves having the Spatial Rift racial in no way, shape or form prove that Alleria got both abilities at the same time during her fight with the dark naaru.

saying Alleria already had the voidform is a completely nonsensical headcanon

Why? Why is it "nonsensical"? You've repeated that claim multiple times, and yet you never explained what makes an explanation that is perfectly logical and consistent with the lore "nonsensical".

you have and you are tying o paint as possible because "you can refute that" again, appel to ignorance

That is not what appeal to ignorance is. An appeal to ignorance is to assert an idea as FACT because there is no evidence against it. It is what you are doing when you say that "it's a fact" that Alleria acquired the ability to take on a void form when she absorbed the naaru. Because there is no evidence against it.

the other way around is truth as well, like i said.

No, it's not. Not in this case. You cannot say something does not exist just because you can't see it. The idea that Alleria may have already known how to transform but did not do so until absorbing the naaru is a valid hypothesis.

those are completely different things.

They are? Prove it, then. Show me the official lore or developer quote that states the two are "completely different things".

most likely in your "rumble" opinion, cause is common sense that was ALSO the ability to transform into a void state, because she got imediately after she suck the naaru

Again, you are ironically engaging in this "appeal to ignorance" fallacy you accuse me of when you state, as fact, that Alleria acquired her ability to transform into a void form the moment she absorbed the naaru, considering there is no official statement dictating so.

it means, if she could, ti would have being mentioned, or she could have done it before

Not really. At no point in the questing campaign in Argus it was required for Alleria to take on the void form. And as for mentioning it, again, why should it have been mentioned? When has Anduin ever mentioned "hey, did you know I can resurrect thousands of people at the same time in the middle of combat?" or Sylvanas saying "hey, did you know I can turn into an incorporeal banshee without losing my physical body?" before demonstrating said abilities?

a right you are just "giving hypothesis", thats the difference "hypothesis" let alone you trying to pass those as posible and/or to undermine what we have

Please read the difference between offering an alternative explanation (i.e. what I'm doing) and asserting an explanation as true while declaring all others as false (i.e. what you're doing).

one thing is not the other thing, you are trying to make the whole package coming from her sucking the naaru to be just about the portals, that is just confirmations bias.

That's not confirmation bias. At all. You're trying to be fancy throwing different fallacy names toward me, but none stick because none applies to what I'm doing, here. What I'm saying is that Alleria transforming into a void form at that moment in time in no way proves as a fact that was the moment she acquired the ability to transform.

The problm you think just the portal ability coming from the naaru, and its everything.

Considering it's the dark naaru itself creating the portals, I think it's not that illogical to think that the ability to summon portals came from the fallen naaru. And as for "everything", that is a claim you have to prove. And so far, you haven't. For all your accusations that I "don't have canon evidence", you so far failed to prove a single shred of evidence that points to the idea that Alleria could only transform after absorbing L'ura's energies.

So far, you have only stated your headcanon that "it's everything" as fact. Zero evidence.

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It doesnt matter if you are purely talking about fixed sillhouettes. Being race or class doesnt matter on that front. Your character can even be 100% of the time be an entirely differnt race with toys, so that would be confusing as well of you are refering to visual identity.

Maybe you are just not very clear on what you are refering to. Because a fixed sillhouette is broken when you can change your stance in a barbershop right?

No, because a hunched orc does not suddenly look like a blood elf, or a goblin, or a troll, or a night elf, or a mechagnome, etc, when he stands straight. An orc still looks like an orc.

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It is a fallacy that your reasoning assumes Forsaken WILL ALWAYS BE EXCLUSIVELY visually represented as Human. It is a fallacy that you claim races have a FIXED visual identity.

Context, you must remember context of your own argument.

I'm honestly starting to have trouble taking you seriously, right now.

You talk about context, yet you remain fixated on the specific, literal meaning of the wording I used on my original response, despite me explaining the context behind it. Multiple times. But when you engage in the same mistake you accuse me of, you refuse to own up to it, hiding behind this "context" excuse while at the same time denying the context behind my argument.

[Swnem]

Not gonna speak for everyone, but... yeah, If we got Venthyr over undead elves, I'm all in. Alternatively, undead/san'layn elves are also popular because as most AR, they are just reskins of existing models, so for most people they are more likely than Venthyr. At the end of the day, most elven variations would simply be more efficient across the board.

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Wanna be hopeful about it, but yeah, I do think how they have revisited the Void Elves from being made purposefully dichotomous to blood elves, to now give them a big overlap of skin tones and eye colors, does suggest a change of philosophy.

The faction war itself can't exist forever on the same form, and maybe a mercenary mode that lifts faction restrictions will happen someday, but who knows.

An Aside about Blood Elves

I really appreciate that there's an overlap between VE and BE where the "Traditional High Elf Fantasy" exists, but I does really make me wish BE's had something more on their end of the spectrum, and while to me that has usually been more undead class unrestricted options, I think I'm also into the idea of bringing fel back to a more prominent place -for example, by reintroducing illidari to BE society- It would bring the Blood Elves full circle just like Legion did with Illidan, with BE players more fel based options not limited to Demon Hunters and most importantly, set up the biggest contrast within a race, between Light Worshipers and Fel users. To actualize Blood Elves both as what they were introduced as and what they became at the end of BC would be swell.

Been saying that about blood elves for a while in this thread.
The problem isn't void elves getting similar customizations, it's the blood elf identity that is not so visually present as the void elf one.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Agreed. Blood elves were implemented by pragmatists who by any means necessary rebuild their society. They were notorious for using various sources of magic and that created image of power hungry elves who are not above doing shady things to reach their objective. That image of blood elves was interesting to many. It is indeed natural that their society will now lean more towards light, given it is part of the Sunwell's nature now, but I still feel they lost something which made them attractive and made them more organic fit within the Horde.

Indeed, and it's not like the fel aspects of the Blood Elves don't fit the Horde, who at large understand the necessity of them, and while Orgrimmar seems to segregate them, Undead had no isses with them. So yeah, with the Illidari being a thing, I would really like if Silvermoon because the centre of fel studies on the Horde, approached on a safe way with lots of counter measures -one would think the Sunwell itself would work as an excellent countermeasure-

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Been saying that about blood elves for a while in this thread.
The problem isn't void elves getting similar customizations, it's the blood elf identity that is not so visually present as the void elf one.

Indeed, it really doesn't feel like BE visually represent some of their core cultural aspects beyond eye color, which is true for both their Fel and Light themes. If it was like humans and they simply had a lot of options it wouldn't be much of a deal, but with both Fel and Light being such marked aspects of BE culture -with them being one of the few races that embraced Fel usage, and even when that has been downplayed, it still remains as an important aspect through Demon Hunters- have so little visual representation.

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just as a note, their theme in tbc was exactly going against that, with the sunwell being cleaned in the end, so in he very expansion they already had ditch that

The point I am making is against the reductive moralization that Fel is a bad thing and that BE's should have felt ashamed of using it, that they "need" to move past it, when Legion started with the recontextualization of cosmic powers, specifically with Fel used as a tool by two classes now for the common good.

Besides, to say BE's ditched their reliance on Fel when they still have warlocks, doesn't look accurate at all. To pretend Blood Elves just moved on from using fel because the Sunwell was reignited feels like a real whitewash of their story, not because it lost prominence it means it disappeared, specially when we keep seeing BE warlocks showing up, and Blood Mages are far more closer to Warlocks than Mages (reminded these Blood Mages are not "Blood Magic" users like Blood Trolls)

[shoc]

Indeed, and it's not like the fel aspects of the Blood Elves don't fit the Horde, who at large understand the necessity of them, and while Orgrimmar seems to segregate them, Undead had no isses with them. So yeah, with the Illidari being a thing, I would really like if Silvermoon because the centre of fel studies on the Horde, approached on a safe way with lots of counter measures -one would think the Sunwell itself would work as an excellent countermeasure-

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Indeed, it really doesn't feel like BE visually represent some of their core cultural aspects beyond eye color, which is true for both their Fel and Light themes. If it was like humans and they simply had a lot of options it wouldn't be much of a deal, but with both Fel and Light being such marked aspects of BE culture -with them being one of the few races that embraced Fel usage, and even when that has been downplayed, it still remains as an important aspect through Demon Hunters- have so little visual representation.

Wouldn't it be cool if Kayn Sunfury came back to challenge Lorthemar as leader of the Blood Elves, and bring some casual Fel use back into Blood Elf society? They have the Sunwell now so they won't become utterly addicted to it again, but it should be safe for recreational use. There's no reason not to see them back unless they are too antisocial for it, the villain Blood Elves in TBC (the Sunfury no relation to Kayn Sunfury) rejoined the main Horde Blood Elf faction a long time ago.

Kayn could use the Fel Hammer to shoot the Vindicaar down for good to affirm his allegiance to the Horde so we can argue about why the Blood Elves don't just use the Fel Hammer to wipe out the Alliance instead. Plus the man has this coin which we could totally retroactively say was foreshadowing all along.



All just so that Demon Hunter features aren't class locked which would be worth it IMO, give "Horde High Elves" a way to distinguish themselves. I think people are pissy because now the Void Elves can be classic High Elves AND Void Elves while Blood Elves 'only' have generic High Elves. Basically opening up 'Felblood Elf' in this way would be choice.

No new player is going to look at the below and say 'poppa what makes the Blood Elves a Horde race' and need a lecture on politics and cultural identity for it to make sense. The fact that Blood Elf Warlocks don't already get Demon Hunter options is criminal.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Wouldn't it be cool if Kayn Sunfury came back to challenge Lorthemar as leader of the Blood Elves, and bring some casual Fel use back into Blood Elf society? They have the Sunwell now so they won't become utterly addicted to it again, but it should be safe for recreational use. There's no reason not to see them back unless they are too antisocial for it, the villain Blood Elves in TBC (the Sunfury no relation to Kayn Sunfury) rejoined the main Horde Blood Elf faction a long time ago.

Kayn could use the Fel Hammer to shoot the Vindicaar down for good to affirm his allegiance to the Horde so we can argue about why the Blood Elves don't just use the Fel Hammer to wipe out the Alliance instead. Plus the man has this coin which we could totally retroactively say was foreshadowing all along.



All just so that Demon Hunter features aren't class locked which would be worth it IMO, give "Horde High Elves" a way to distinguish themselves. I think people are pissy because now the Void Elves can be classic High Elves AND Void Elves while Blood Elves 'only' have generic High Elves. Basically opening up 'Felblood Elf' in this way would be choice.

No new player is going to look at the below and say 'poppa what makes the Blood Elves a Horde race' and need a lecture on politics and cultural identity for it to make sense. The fact that Blood Elf Warlocks don't already get Demon Hunter options is criminal.

Basically; Blood Elves have basically already a strong story with the Fel and now with the Illidari, it's just a shame nothing is being used; folding Illidari back into the BE opens so many possibilities -even NB DH-

Right now the BE "council" Is Lor'themar, Halduron and Rommath; Now think of adding Liadrin and Kayn -they can make canonical that Aldrius became the leader of the Illidari, so Kayn brings his loyalists to Silvermoon- Now that would be a cool ass Blood Elven council that reflected all aspects of their culture.

It's not that good that VE can represent more fantasies even when they are still framed as only Void Scholars, but it's neither that good that Blood Elves, having deep light and fel themes, only get representation of them on their eye color.

Yes Demon Hunter options should be unlocked to all claseess, and yes Blood Elves shoould get golden light tattoos. All that's in the way is the Paladin class and its restrictive thematics, but that doesnpt stop BE warlocks from having blue, or even more egregious, golden eyes, so a gameplay/lore segregation is already understood. And if the restrictions to Paladin class is all there is, well then just lock DH skins from Paladins; would rather one class being locked from the options, than all classes BUT one.

-And the same could be done with Undead Elves now that we are here, and in that way, all these derivatives are sufficiently represented through BE's and we can move forward with other AR ideas-

The problem is not that VE's get to share BE assets, the problem is that BE's should not be so restricted when their lore is so much more nuanced, and it really comes down to customization options not reflecting all the possibilities a BE has within the lore.

[shoc]

Basically; Blood Elves have basically already a strong story with the Fel and now with the Illidari, it's just a shame nothing is being used; folding Illidari back into the BE opens so many possibilities -even NB DH-

Right now the BE "council" Is Lor'themar, Halduron and Rommath; Now think of adding Liadrin and Kayn -they can make canonical that Aldrius became the leader of the Illidari, so Kayn brings his loyalists to Silvermoon- Now that would be a cool ass Blood Elven council that reflected all aspects of their culture.

It's not that good that VE can represent more fantasies even when they are still framed as only Void Scholars, but it's neither that good that Blood Elves, having deep light and fel themes, only get representation of them on their eye color.

Yes Demon Hunter options should be unlocked to all claseess, and yes Blood Elves shoould get golden light tattoos. All that's in the way is the Paladin class and its restrictive thematics, but that doesnpt stop BE warlocks from having blue, or even more egregious, golden eyes, so a gameplay/lore segregation is already understood. And if the restrictions to Paladin class is all there is, well then just lock DH skins from Paladins; would rather one class being locked from the options, than all classes BUT one.

-And the same could be done with Undead Elves now that we are here, and in that way, all these derivatives are sufficiently represented through BE's and we can move forward with other AR ideas-

The problem is not that VE's get to share BE assets, the problem is that BE's should not be so restricted when their lore is so much more nuanced, and it really comes down to customization options not reflecting all the possibilities a BE has within the lore.

Even a Fel Blood Elf Paladin would be really cool. If you recall the Blood Elves during TBC were still using power siphoned from a defeated Naaru and Blood Elf Paladins had a unique ability called Seal of Blood. Since then the game has normalized everything between factions but there was once a time when the Blood Elves were playable as evil Paladins. Its unconventional but I don't think the lore would prohibit the existence of Fel Blood Elf Paladins and Priests. Regardless, rule of cool should win here.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Even a Fel Blood Elf Paladin would be really cool. If you recall the Blood Elves during TBC were still using power siphoned from a defeated Naaru and Blood Elf Paladins had a unique ability called Seal of Blood. Since then the game has normalized everything between factions but there was once a time when the Blood Elves were playable as evil Paladins. Its unconventional but I don't think the lore would prohibit the existence of Fel Blood Elf Paladins and Priests. Regardless, rule of cool should win here.

Oh yeah I personally fully agree with that -Paladin, mechanically wise- should be more than a Holy Warrior and more of a Warrior imbued by what they deem sacred, whatever that might be. It would expand the class fantasy so much more, so many possibilities. We know Tyrant Velhari isn't a "paladin" but a fel perversion of it, or an analogue, and it's just a cool ass concept.

But that all depends whether Paladin as an archetype remains as restrictive as it has always been, or if rule of cool is brought up. And again, it's not like it would "break" lore, as the whole point is about reframing gameplay archetypes and not retconing the lore of what a paladin is, much like all the NPC analogues we already see in game.

[Rhlor]

Wouldn't it be cool if Kayn Sunfury came back to challenge Lorthemar as leader of the Blood Elves, and bring some casual Fel use back into Blood Elf society? They have the Sunwell now so they won't become utterly addicted to it again, but it should be safe for recreational use. There's no reason not to see them back unless they are too antisocial for it, the villain Blood Elves in TBC (the Sunfury no relation to Kayn Sunfury) rejoined the main Horde Blood Elf faction a long time ago.

Kayn could use the Fel Hammer to shoot the Vindicaar down for good to affirm his allegiance to the Horde so we can argue about why the Blood Elves don't just use the Fel Hammer to wipe out the Alliance instead. Plus the man has this coin which we could totally retroactively say was foreshadowing all along.



All just so that Demon Hunter features aren't class locked which would be worth it IMO, give "Horde High Elves" a way to distinguish themselves. I think people are pissy because now the Void Elves can be classic High Elves AND Void Elves while Blood Elves 'only' have generic High Elves. Basically opening up 'Felblood Elf' in this way would be choice.

No new player is going to look at the below and say 'poppa what makes the Blood Elves a Horde race' and need a lecture on politics and cultural identity for it to make sense. The fact that Blood Elf Warlocks don't already get Demon Hunter options is criminal.

Kayn said that the Illidari after defeating the legion would retake the black temple.
the illidari are their own faction and i guess they must be in black temple now.

[Syegfryed]

The point I am making is against the reductive moralization that Fel is a bad thing and that BE's should have felt ashamed of using it, that they "need" to move past it, when Legion started with the recontextualization of cosmic powers, specifically with Fel used as a tool by two classes now for the common good.

i don't disagree, i prefer the elves from wc3, before all the retcons and stuff, that made me like then more, just can't like then in wow

Besides, to say BE's ditched their reliance on Fel when they still have warlocks, doesn't look accurate at all.

they would not lose one playable class in the end of the expansion just because their lore/theme went another direction, like, many races can be warlocks and are firmly against fel and dark magic like humans and orcs

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So you say that "everything is speculation", except your headcanon? You're assuming as fact

that is a fact, unless proved otherwise

there is a third method for void elf transformation, despite Blizzard never, ever showing that there is a third method.

Unless is exactly like alleria, you cannot claim it is the same so you need to be exactly like alleria, end

Are you being intentionally dense now? How many times must I repeat that two races sharing a similar silhouette is immaterial to my argument since that is not something I'm arguing about!? I'm not talking about "races sharing silhouettes", I'm talking about a playable race's own visual identity. You keep attacking an argument I never made and ignore the one I'm actually making.

Are you being intentionally dense now? cause i literally just said void elf visual identity change, and you are telling me forsaken visual identity can't

again, double standats

Let it be on record that you are ignoring official canon lore and supplanting it with your own head canon of which you have no conclusive evidence of. Locus Walker specifically says "take the power of the portals" so it can "be her weapon" in the very same fight that precedes the "let's test your new powers" line.

the official canon is that she get her voidform and every other major void elf power after sucking the naaru, again, your headcanon that she already had voidform and she only got the ability to creat portals -despite both being the void elf signature racials - is just bonkers, you are living in your own dream

Could that moment be the moment Alleria also acquired the ability to take on a void form? It could, yes

it was, just like others void elves,, unless again, you have something to show otherwise

That is not what appeal to ignorance is. An appeal to ignorance is to assert an idea as FACT because there is no evidence against it. It is what you are doing when you say that "it's a fact" that Alleria acquired the ability to take on a void form when she absorbed the naaru. Because there is no evidence against it.

there is no evidence against that because it is the truth LOL.

No, it's not. Not in this case. You cannot say something does not exist just because you can't see it. The idea that Alleria may have already known how to transform but did not do so until absorbing the naaru is a valid hypothesis.

it is not, again,a hypoteis need to be testable, you need to have something to base off, you hve nothing, you are just making this up to support your argument.

nothing suggest that, nothing implies that, nothing even hint that, evrything lead to he gaining those stuff, including her voidform, aftr the naaru.

They are? Prove it, then. Show me the official lore or developer quote that states the two are "completely different things".

one is a racial the other is a priest ability, sharing name does't make the thing the same

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Voidform

Activated by casting Void Eruption. Twists your Shadowform with the powers of the Void, increasing spell damage you deal by 10%, reducing the cooldown on Mind Blast by 1.5 sec, and granting an additional 0.5% Haste every 1 sec.

Your Insanity will drain increasingly fast until it reaches 0 and Voidform ends.

Entropic Embrace is a passive racial ability for all void elves, providing a chance for your abilities to empower you with the essence of the Void.

Has a 33% chance to proc, the buff gained also has a 1 minute internal cooldown.
The buff does not grant a flat 5% damage boost, it causes all attacks made during the duration to also deal 5% of that attack as shadowfrost damage in a separate action.
Alleria Windrunner has a similar form that she gained after draining the dark naaru L'ura, but unlike Entropic Embrace's passive effect, Alleria can transform at will.

2 different things

no you gonna say they are the same doing different things because "it is a vallid hypotesis"

Again, you are ironically engaging in this "appeal to ignorance" fallacy you accuse me of when you state, as fact, that Alleria acquired her ability to transform into a void form the moment she absorbed the naaru, considering there is no official statement dictating so.

because it was, you are using now the perfectionist fallacy, you do not want believe in somethign that is truth because there is no "oficial statement"

Not really. At no point in the questing campaign in Argus it was required for Alleria to take on the void form. And as for mentioning it, again, why should it have been mentioned? When has Anduin ever mentioned "hey, did you know I can resurrect thousands of people at the same time in the middle of combat?" or Sylvanas saying "hey, did you know I can turn into an incorporeal banshee without losing my physical body?" before demonstrating said abilities?

again false equivalences, her new voidform was something she gained aft sucking the naaru, thats why they show imeediately after it, if she already knew she would pop up to fight it, again, compltely nonsensical "hypothesis" just trying to support your nonsense argument that elves should be like her.

Please read the difference between offering an alternative explanation (i.e. what I'm doing) and asserting an explanation as true while declaring all others as false (i.e. what you're doing).

you are making shit up trying to disregard something w lready know as truth

That's not confirmation bias. At all. You're trying to be fancy throwing different fallacy names toward me, but none stick because none applies to what I'm doing, here. What I'm saying is that Alleria transforming into a void form at that moment in time in no way proves as a fact that was the moment she acquired the ability to transform.

Considering it's the dark naaru itself creating the portals, I think it's not that illogical to think that the ability to summon portals came from the fallen naaru. And as for "everything", that is a claim you have to prove. And so far, you haven't. For all your accusations that I "don't have canon evidence", you so far failed to prove a single shred of evidence that points to the idea that Alleria could only transform after absorbing L'ura's energies.

everything came from the naary LOL, its the very void elf racials, if she got one she got the other, stop cherry picking

[Garfurion]

Besides, to say BE's ditched their reliance on Fel when they still have warlocks, doesn't look accurate at all. To pretend Blood Elves just moved on from using fel because the Sunwell was reignited feels like a real whitewash of their story, not because it lost prominence it means it disappeared, specially when we keep seeing BE warlocks showing up, and Blood Mages are far more closer to Warlocks than Mages (reminded these Blood Mages are not "Blood Magic" users like Blood Trolls)

Humans have warlocks as well, but it's made clear that they operate outside normal society. I can imagine the same holds true for Blood Elves, especially after they saw what using fel did to Kael'thas.

I also don't think fel usage is or ever was an iconic aspect of Blood Elves. The Blood Elves may originally have been designed as fel junkies but that was very quickly retconned to "normal mana" junkies, down playing their reliance on fel. Most Blood Elves never actively used fel or drained fel energy.

[Strippling]

snip

I feel like you're putting wayyyy too much importance on fel and it's position within blood elf society. It was literally a phase they went through (and by they I don't even mean all of blood elf society) for a short period, and shortly thereafter they quickly returned to their roots. It's like you're attempting to define them by one phase throughout their entire existence, despite the fact that the phase was short lived and for the most part they returned to their "standard" practices. Yes the fel created a slight physical change (as is apparent in their eyes), but the cultural implications were far less and for the most part their culture has remained the same. Why push so hard for "felblood" options when that was never a part of the blood elven society that are playable, and based on the little exposure they did have to fel it simply resulted in green eyes (not felblood elves). And DH should remain their own separate thing.

Blood elves have other aspects that should take priority over "fel" options. These include farstrider options (tattoos similar to Alleria who was a farstrider, feathers, braided hair options), magister options (tattoos similar to Rommath, runic markings like the box cover art), blood knight options (golden phoenix tattoos??, golden glowing hair??). In addition, dark ranger options should be made available... though I'd be fine with this becoming a forsaken customization option (though logisitcally it'd make more sense to just give BE the options as the model already exists).

[Ielenia]

that is a fact, unless proved otherwise

This is not how facts work, Syegfryed. A fact isn't a fact "because it wasn't proven otherwise". A fact is a fact because it has been PROVEN to be a fact. 1+1=2 is a fact not because people haven't proven that 1+1=11 or 1+1=apple. 1+1=2 is a fact because it has been proven to be a fact.

To say "it's a fact unless proven otherwise" is to state your headcanon as fact. It's to say "I have a magical two-headed invisible pink unicorn living in my backyard that only reveals itself to those it finds worthy. And that's a fact because you cannot prove it otherwise."

Are you being intentionally dense now? cause i literally just said void elf visual identity change, and you are telling me forsaken visual identity can't

again, double standats

Again, no. I'm talking about the silhouettes when I talk about visual identity. You'd know that if you bothered to read my posts in which I repeat the word "silhouette" over and over and over and over again.

the official canon is that she get her voidform and every other major void elf power after sucking the naaru,

Wrong. You're asserting your headcanon as "official canon", because nowhere at all it says that it was eating the fallen naaru's energies that gave Alleria the power to transform. Nothing in the game's lore, nothing in the books, and nothing from Blizzard developer interviews or tweets.

again, your headcanon that she already had voidform and she only got the ability to creat portals -despite both being the void elf signature racials - is just bonkers, you are living in your own dream

First: both void form and spatial rift being the void elf's racial abilities in no way proves that Alleria bot both at the same time from eating the fallen naaru's energies.
Two: again you demean my hypothesis, calling it "bonkers" this time, and yet again you do it without ever explaining why it's "bonkers" or "nonsensical" or "absurd". It feels you're just trying to sweep my hypothesis under the rug. An hypothesis, mind you, that is perfectly possibly within the current canon lore presented so far.

it was, just like others void elves,, unless again, you have something to show otherwise

Again: a fact is not a fact because it hasn't been proven otherwise. A fact is a fact because it has been proven to be a fact. Something you have not done at all so far. You only asserted it's a fact, with zero evidence.

there is no evidence against that because it is the truth LOL.

Again, that is not how "truth" or "facts" work, dude. Truths are not truths because they haven't been proven to be false, but rather because they have been proven to be truths, and nothing in the game proves your headcanon as true.

it is not, again,a hypoteis need to be testable, you need to have something to base off, you hve nothing, you are just making this up to support your argument.

nothing suggest that, nothing implies that, nothing even hint that, evrything lead to he gaining those stuff, including her voidform, aftr the naaru.

Wrong. A fact needs to be testable to confirm it is a fact. A hypothesis is not deemed "false" just because it cannot be tested. An example?
"I hypothesize that no planet within the andromeda galaxy is populated by technologically advanced civilizations."
"Is there any way we can test that hypothesis?"
"No"
"Then all planets within the andromeda galaxy is populated by technologically advanced civilizations."
This is your logic regarding our debate, here. An hypothesis that cannot be tested is just that: a hypothesis, a possibility. If it can be tested, then it stops being a hypothesis and becomes either a false statement or a true statement. I.e., a lie or a fact, respectively.

one is a racial the other is a priest ability, sharing name does't make the thing the same

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Voidform

So what's the relevance that one is a class ability and the other is a racial ability? You're basically saying an ability that transforms you into a void form is not the same as an ability that does the exact same thing, i.e., transforming you into a void form... and not giving a single explanation as to why they're not the same thing. In-game tooltips that describe the mechanical functionality of an ability are not lore.

again false equivalences, her new voidform was something she gained aft sucking the naaru,

Prove it.

thats why they show imeediately after it,

That's not conclusive evidence.

f she already knew she would pop up to fight it,

Not really. At no point Alleria has ever been in grave danger to require using it. In fact, some of her lines indicate that Alleria has at first resisted using using more of the void:
Alleria Windrunner says: "I have not turned away from that path. You know why I resisted."

Also, think a little about what you've said: you're claiming Alleria could only transform after eating the fallen energies of the Naaru. That implies that transforming a blood/high elf into a void elf requires the energies of a fallen naaru, which you have admitted are incredibly rare. According to you, the energies of a fallen demigod are not enough to trigger the void elf transformation, which is what Nhal'athoth is:
Locus-Walker says: "The heart of a demigod. This is no mere token, Alleria."

So how are more void elves coming to be?

you are making shit up trying to disregard something w lready know as truth

NO ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH because the truth has never been stated. You're asserting your headcanons as facts, here. Which is incredibly ironic considering you're dismissing my hypothesis because they're "headcanon". Actually, twice as incredibly ironic considering that's a huge double-standard from you, considering you're constantly accusing me of double-standards here. Erroneously, too, I might add.

everything came from the naary LOL, its the very void elf racials,

"Everything came from the naaru."
"It's the very void elf racials."
Are you saying the void elves are consuming fallen naarus, then?

if she got one she got the other, stop cherry picking

Prove it. Your headcanons are not facts.

[Garfurion]

First: both void form and spatial rift being the void elf's racial abilities in no way proves that Alleria bot both at the same time from eating the fallen naaru's energies.

Alleria could make void portals during the thousand year war story so that ability can just be taught by Locuswalker, and doesn't require eating Dark Naaru's or hearts of Void Reverants like Nhal'athoth.

[Rhlor]

Indeed, and it's not like the fel aspects of the Blood Elves don't fit the Horde, who at large understand the necessity of them, and while Orgrimmar seems to segregate them, Undead had no isses with them. So yeah, with the Illidari being a thing, I would really like if Silvermoon because the centre of fel studies on the Horde, approached on a safe way with lots of counter measures -one would think the Sunwell itself would work as an excellent countermeasure-

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Indeed, it really doesn't feel like BE visually represent some of their core cultural aspects beyond eye color, which is true for both their Fel and Light themes. If it was like humans and they simply had a lot of options it wouldn't be much of a deal, but with both Fel and Light being such marked aspects of BE culture -with them being one of the few races that embraced Fel usage, and even when that has been downplayed, it still remains as an important aspect through Demon Hunters- have so little visual representation.

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The point I am making is against the reductive moralization that Fel is a bad thing and that BE's should have felt ashamed of using it, that they "need" to move past it, when Legion started with the recontextualization of cosmic powers, specifically with Fel used as a tool by two classes now for the common good.

Besides, to say BE's ditched their reliance on Fel when they still have warlocks, doesn't look accurate at all. To pretend Blood Elves just moved on from using fel because the Sunwell was reignited feels like a real whitewash of their story, not because it lost prominence it means it disappeared, specially when we keep seeing BE warlocks showing up, and Blood Mages are far more closer to Warlocks than Mages (reminded these Blood Mages are not "Blood Magic" users like Blood Trolls)

humans and gnomes can be warlocks.

it was rommath the grand magister of quelthalas who said that Fel was no longer used.