Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ielenia]

Personally, I have no problem with elf customization being given to the forsaken model. But to say that what other users propose such as being able to choose between one mode or another and being able to customize them separately is something possible! There are those who say it can't be done, but the worgen show that they can.

The worgen is not exactly a prime example to use, considering you still look like a furry anthro wolf 9/10 you're engaging with world content, and 10/10 times when you're engaged in combat. A "forsaken blood elf"-- and, just to be clear, I'm talking about the straight-back blood elf model, used for Dark Rangers and Sylvanas, here-- would not suddenly and immediately turn into a "forsaken human" the moment they get into combat. They'd remain as a blood elf the entire time.

Just to be clear, as far as my position goes:
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" into an allied race? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" look like the Wretched? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken humans" look like actual blood elves, only pale skin and red eyes? Then we have a problem.

nowadays you go to the hairdresser as an old european human and you can go out as a young asian human.

Well, yes, you can. But here's the thing: your human character still looks like a human character, regardless if you look european, asian, or african. A forsaken character would no longer look like a forsaken anymore if they look like a blood elf.

undead elf who want to play the people who ask for them are those who are part of the forsaken and have a lore as forsaken. forsaken are not only undead human. and I repeat the character can change race when they change faction I don't see what the problem is.

You're making a false equivalence, here. The player character changing race when they switch factions is not something that exists within the lore. Thrall wouldn't suddenly become a human if he decided to defect to the Alliance. Hell, Renzik "The Shiv" is an Alliance goblin and didn't turn into a worgen or gnome when he switched factions. That's a game mechanic.

[Triceron]

You talk about context, yet you remain fixated on the specific, literal meaning of the wording I used on my original response, despite me explaining the context behind it. Multiple times. But when you engage in the same mistake you accuse me of, you refuse to own up to it, hiding behind this "context" excuse while at the same time denying the context behind my argument.

Yes, because there is no point to you making a difference between Navy and Nation. The context is whether Kul Tirans looked human.

The context of your argument is the silhouettes of Undead

You talk about context, yet you remain fixated on the specific, literal meaning of the wording I used on my original response, despite me explaining the context behind it. Multiple times. But when you engage in the same mistake you accuse me of, you refuse to own up to it, hiding behind this "context" excuse while at the same time denying the context behind my argument.

Then you say

Again, no. I'm talking about the silhouettes when I talk about visual identity. You'd know that if you bothered to read my posts in which I repeat the word "silhouette" over and over and over and over again.
.

This is why I hound you on your own use of the word

You literally use it to defend your argument despite knowing I have called you out on your fallacies surrounding silhouettes.

If your argument regarding Visual Identity is about silhouettes then you need to acknowledge Blizzard isn't abiding their own rules on silhouettes. Your reasoning is unsound.

You have been utterly dishonest in your arguments. I caught you again going back to talking about silhouettes despite you trying to defend yourself saying I am picking your argument out of context. The context is RIGHT HERE in your own quote! YOU are saying your argument about visual identity is about the silhouettes!

Silhouettes to certain races are not fixed. They are absolutely customizable now. There is no reason Undead should stay exclusive to any silhouette, considering they already aren't.

[Rhlor]

Sorry, but that does not really make sense. Worgen as a race are based on them being werewolves, their ability to shift back into humans is given by their backstory, in which they learned how to control their worgen ferocity. Still, they can't maintain their former shapes and form of the worgen transform them when they are face danger (thus when they are in combat). Some of them embraced their new lives fully and do not shift into humans at all. There is virtually no lore reason to demand 100% time human worgen, that does not make sense. Again, if you want to have non-cursed gilnean, you are free to make regular human and create your own backstory for him/her. There is no difference between regular stormwindian humans and non-cursed gilneans in terms of their models. In the same way, as a human, you can easily pretend to be kul tiran, or dalarani... or even a member of any human kingdom. You have that option in the game already, so there is no need for other race to have these options.




I'm sorry, but I have no idea what is your point on this. Faction changes are paid customer service which have nothing to do with anything lore-related. My point was that when it comes to Forsaken, they are indeed lorewise made of several races. Playable undead are humans (well, undead humans) which are told to be major part of Forsaken community. Blizzard made it pretty clear over the years, and while they used dark rangers (undead elves) among their ranks too, majority of Forsaken identity was build on the fact that they are undead humans of Lordaeron. Providing undead elf option to the Horde feels justified for me, I believe Horde players should have that option. I don't think adding another model to the Forsaken is the right way to do, for reasons I explained in my previous posts.

Forsaken elf is just a pandora box, which would resulted in many possible requests and I'm not sure where it would lead. For that reason, I believe undead options on blood elves are lesser evil. Ideal case for me are undead elves as separate allied race. I get you are fiercely opposed to idea of undead customizations for blood elves and I accept reasons for your opinion, even though I do not agree with them on 100%... but I don't really know why separate allied race of undead elves is an issue for you.

I am saying that it is not impossible to do it, it is not something that takes excessive work, if they can do it with the worgen they can do the same with the forsaken. the undead elf who want to play those who ask are part of the forsaken.

Now tell me what are your reasons why you don't like this idea. also if you give undead elf to blood elves it would be very bad in regards to lore and you would also have undead paladin.

- - - Updated - - -

The worgen is not exactly a prime example to use, considering you still look like a furry anthro wolf 9/10 you're engaging with world content, and 10/10 times when you're engaged in combat. A "forsaken blood elf"-- and, just to be clear, I'm talking about the straight-back blood elf model, used for Dark Rangers and Sylvanas, here-- would not suddenly and immediately turn into a "forsaken human" the moment they get into combat. They'd remain as a blood elf the entire time.

Just to be clear, as far as my position goes:
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" into an allied race? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken blood elves" look like the Wretched? Fine by me.
• Want to make "forsaken humans" look like actual blood elves, only pale skin and red eyes? Then we have a problem.


Well, yes, you can. But here's the thing: your human character still looks like a human character, regardless if you look european, asian, or african. A forsaken character would no longer look like a forsaken anymore if they look like a blood elf.


You're making a false equivalence, here. The player character changing race when they switch factions is not something that exists within the lore. Thrall wouldn't suddenly become a human if he decided to defect to the Alliance. Hell, Renzik "The Shiv" is an Alliance goblin and didn't turn into a worgen or gnome when he switched factions. That's a game mechanic.

What is the explanation in the tradition to go from African human to Asian human?

What I'm talking about is that it can be done mechanically! and it is proven that it can be done thanks to the worgen! that you can customize two different models on the same screen is something that is there!
I think it could be done with forsaken and many people would be happy
I would like to know what the problem is?

[Vaedan]

What is the explanation in the tradition to go from African human to Asian human?

What I'm talking about is that it can be done mechanically! and it is proven that it can be done thanks to the worgen! that you can customize two different models on the same screen is something that is there!
I think it could be done with forsaken and many people would be happy
I would like to know what the problem is?

Well, the problem is that in case of worgen, it is used as a customization option for your character. You use both appearances actually, one on your worgen form and the second for your human form. While your worgen form is dominant and you use it most of time, it is fair to customize your human form, since you have ability to transform into one. In the end, Blizzard does not need to create anything new for worgen human forms, they just baked in existing human customization for that separate worgen form. End of story.

What you suggest is straight up swapping base character model with something completely different. The problem is that needs of undead elves does not end with the blood elf model on the Forsaken. They'd eventually need another features, like hairstyles, skin tones, etc., since you just can't copy Forsaken features to blood elves, because, surprise, they have different model so Blizz need to adjust these features for elf model or create new one. In that matter, why just not add new allied race, which have the same result of providing undead elf fantasy for the Horde, without possible side effects in terms of bugs and possible character customization chaos?

[Rhlor]

Well, I think there are better ways to implement that. My issues with that:
- Forsaken would be the only race which can alter their base model. It could easily snowball into community demanding so many other options which could result in a mess in character options. You know, even Kul Tirans are their own allied race and are not another model variant for humans, DESPITE BEING JUST HUMANS, but hardened by harsh environments.
- I don't really like the idea of a thing so fundamentally important to your character, as a race, to be changed so easily. Yes, undead are kind of race (I'd describe it more as a condition), they clearly made their own society and culture, but I don't think it is good idea to mix classic undead model and blood elf model in one race. It makes blood elves even less unique and priviledge Forsaken among other playable races
- Worgen customization was lately pretty much bugged, there were severe issues with that when patch went live, so I guess it is not that easy to implement, but I can't really tell, I'm not expert on this matter. I imagine that adding option to alter base character models could eventually lead into various buggs. I don't know if you noticed, but even now, if you make forsaken with the non-decayed skin, you still have holes in your cloaks in a place where Forsaken used to have their spine bones exposed. The fact that Blizz can't really handle separate worgen customizations and new Forsaken features does not really make me really happy about them experimenting with more base models on one race. On the other hand, making brand new race with specific features or swapping new skin on existing race is something we've seen they can do easily.

Having undead elf allied race is the best possible scenario because:
- You provide Horde players a fantasy they've been asking for years
- As an allied race, they'd get their own specific thematics and features, thus letting Forsaken and Blood elves being unique in their own way, not dilluting their features
- You'd avoid the mess of having more base models on one race. Undead elves will always stay undead elves.
- Lorewise, they could be part of Forsaken easily. Dark Irons are separate allied race, yet they are united within the Alliance under Council of Three Hammers in the same way as Bronzebeards and Wildhammers. They could essentialy implement undead elf allied race in the same logic as they did Dark Irons.

On this matter, I'm actually on the same boat as Ielenia.



I'd only add that adding forsaken elves which looks like wretched (use the same model as regular forsaken) would probably result in quite a lot of players not really satisfied with these options and would still request Sylvanas-style undead elves.

What could the community demand? they would have to be alternate models of a group living in the same society.
At this moment I can think of broken and draenei, and the truth is if someone wants to play broken it would be good if they could.

the blood elves are no longer unique our model all our batteries and almost all our eye colors have the void elves too. at least the undead elf of the forsaken would have unique skin and eye colors.

forsaken are not a race, they are a society of different types of undead.

It doesn't bother me that they have an allied race. but to say that what another user proposed as that forsaken players can choose between two models is impossible is what I do not agree with. I think it is something that can be done.

on the other hand I still don't understand why we discussed these things in the high elf thread

[Vaedan]

What could the community demand? they would have to be alternate models of a group living in the same society.
At this moment I can think of broken and draenei, and the truth is if someone wants to play broken it would be good if they could.

Demand is for playable undead elves. As usual, there are many opinions how it should be implemented, since everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

the blood elves are no longer unique our model all our batteries and almost all our eye colors have the void elves too. at least the undead elf of the forsaken would have unique skin and eye colors.

Not true. Void elves got majority of blood elf skin tones, but their eye colors are not exactly the same. They are really similar, but not the same and blood elves still keep their green and gold eyes exclusive for them. There are still many things in which are blood elves different to void elves at the moment - hairstyles, hair colors, facial hairs, jewelery. I agree blood elves did not get that many options as some other races did, like night elves or dwarves. Scars and tattoos would be really appropriate features for them.

Honestly, don't forget that blue colors were a void elf thing before and it was mostly used to differentiate them from blood elves, yet blood elves got quite a lot options on blue eye and hair colors. While these are not the exact same tones from void elves, it still resulted into blood elves breaking into void elf visual fantasy in the same way void elves broke into blood elf visual fantasy when they got their fair skins. I don't say it is bad, I actually don't mind these options on blood elves at all, but I just think it is unfair to say that blood elves are the only one who lost their unique features, while it applies to void elves as well, in a lesser way.

forsaken are not a race, they are a society of different types of undead.

It doesn't bother me that they have an allied race. but to say that what another user proposed as that forsaken players can choose between two models is impossible is what I do not agree with. I think it is something that can be done.

Sure, it is not impossible. I agree something can be done and there are several ways to implement them. We can only discuss what way is most appropriate.

on the other hand I still don't understand why we discussed these things in the high elf thread

Well, no offense, but you are the one who always heat up the discussion in the slightest sign of the topic of san'layn or undead elves. If you don't like to discuss it, don't bring it up to the discussion.

Also, this thread turned into a some kind of united thalassian discussion, so I guess it is OK to discuss san'layn or undead elves too, but I agree that this discussion evolved into something which is probably not fitting into this thread.

[Ielenia]

What is the explanation in the tradition to go from African human to Asian human?

It doesn't matter. I'm not talking about skin colors. That was never in question.

What I'm talking about is that it can be done mechanically!

It doesn't matter. I'm not talking about what can or cannot be mechanically done. That was never in question.

and it is proven that it can be done thanks to the worgen! that you can customize two different models on the same screen is something that is there!

The worgen are forced to transform into worgen form the moment they enter combat, hence why they're not a valid example for the claim that "worgen can do this, so could the forsaken", considering that implies that the "blood elf forsaken" would turn into "human forsaken" the moment they enter combat.

I think it could be done with forsaken and many people would be happy
I would like to know what the problem is?

The problem comes with muddling the visual identity of the playable race, as being a "straight back, pale, red-eyed blood elf" is a complete departure of the race's already established silhouette. In that term, it's like giving humans the customization options to look exactly like dwarves, as short and stocky as they are. Or the ability for orcs to look exactly like trolls. Worgen have a fixed silhouette: they're furry anthro wolves, because regardless if you want to stay as human as much as possible or not, you will always look like a worgen when you're engaged in PvP or PvE fights. A "blood elf forsaken" will not be forced to be a "human forsaken" when they enter combat.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, because there is no point to you making a difference between Navy and Nation. The context is whether Kul Tirans looked human.

And yet there is a whole difference between "part of the navy" and "the entirety of the nation". That's like saying you've seen the whole house after you've seen only the garage.

You literally use it to defend your argument despite knowing I have called you out on your fallacies surrounding silhouettes.

The only "fallacies" you claim exist is because people keep saying "void elves and blood elves already look the same". And that is not what I'm talking about.

If your argument regarding Visual Identity is about silhouettes then you need to acknowledge Blizzard isn't abiding their own rules on silhouettes. Your reasoning is unsound.

But they are. And I've explained why.

Silhouettes to certain races are not fixed. They are absolutely customizable now.

To an extent. An orc still looks like an orc, straight back or hunched. A troll still looks like a troll, Darkspear or Sandfury. A night elf still looks like a night elf, long thick ears or short thin ears.

Your argument basically means "hey, I can change the size of my night elf's ears, that means Blizzard should have no problems allowing my night elf to look like a dwarf!"

[Triceron]

What could the community demand? they would have to be alternate models of a group living in the same society.
At this moment I can think of broken and draenei, and the truth is if someone wants to play broken it would be good if they could.

Broken is definitely the biggest option, but beyond that there is plenty of customization to be had.

Thin humans have been pretty big demand since we saw the Kul Tirans, and people have have been asking for that.

Fat Draenei options has also been something suggested on these boards, just a bigger belly to go with all the brawn already present on the Draenei. There's plenty of proportional change stuff that could be applied all around, taller Dwarves to better represent Wildhammer or Worgen with Tails or even Elves with shorter ears. We *may* even go as far as suggesting bladefists for Orcs.

- - - Updated - - -

And yet there is a whole difference between "part of the navy" and "the entirety of the nation". That's like saying you've seen the whole house after you've seen only the garage.

Right. You are absolutely right. I made that mistake.

So I ask you why you think the difference of the house and the garage is important when your question is 'How do you know the family living there look human?'

The only "fallacies" you claim exist is because people keep saying "void elves and blood elves already look the same".

This is one of your problems. You are arguing with so many different people that you are lumping all arguments against you as one.

I've pointed out Worgen. You STILL have not addressed this properly in the context of a race that actively breaks their own silhouette. You simply dismiss it using statistics that you completely made up. 9/10 they're in Worgen form, what does that matter when the point is they can BREAK the silhouette of their form and take up the look of another race! That is the whole POINT of your argument, that a race should maintain one singular silhouette and not look like any other race. And the Worgen has TWO different forms it can take up at will!

But they are. And I've explained why.

And each one of your explanations has been refuted easily by Blizzard's own examples of customization.

To an extent. An orc still looks like an orc, straight back or hunched. A troll still looks like a troll, Darkspear or Sandfury. A night elf still looks like a night elf, long thick ears or short thin ears.

Your argument basically means "hey, I can change the size of my night elf's ears, that means Blizzard should have no problems allowing my night elf to look like a dwarf!"

If Night Elves and Dwarves were main races mentioned under the Forsaken, then yes it would make sense. Just like Broken would make sense for the Draenei.

Both Human and Elves are specific to the Forsaken. From a lore perspective, it absolutely makes sense.

If your issue is the 'barbershop' then honestly you have nothing to worry about since plastic surgery to the point of faction/race changing already exists as a service beyond that.

[Rhlor]

Broken is definitely the biggest option, but beyond that there is plenty of customization to be had.

Thin humans have been pretty big demand since we saw the Kul Tirans, and people have have been asking for that.

Fat Draenei options has also been something suggested on these boards, just a bigger belly to go with all the brawn already present on the Draenei. There's plenty of proportional change stuff that could be applied all around, taller Dwarves to better represent Wildhammer or Worgen with Tails or even Elves with shorter ears. We *may* even go as far as suggesting bladefists for Orcs.

If people want to play slim kultiran I think it is good that they have the option.
for my part I am not going to continue contaminating the high elf thread with this discussion create a dark ranger thread if you want to discuss this issue you can do it there
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ion-Megathread

[Edoll]

If people want to play slim kultiran I think it is good that they have the option.
for my part I am not going to continue contaminating the high elf thread with this discussion create a dark ranger thread if you want to discuss this issue you can do it there
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ion-Megathread

Thank you for making a separate thread. I mean that sincerely.

[Rhlor]

Thank you for making a separate thread. I mean that sincerely.

I think it is the best if people want to talk about that topic, now they can do in the other thread

[Ielenia]

Right. You are absolutely right. I made that mistake.

So I ask you why you think the difference of the house and the garage is important when your question is 'How do you know the family living there look human?'

No, that is not my question. I never asked about the family being in that garage. I made a comparison, with the whole population of Kul'Tiras being the house, and the part of the navy you saw in Warcraft 3 being the garage.

This is one of your problems. You are arguing with so many different people that you are lumping all arguments against you as one.

I've pointed out Worgen. You STILL have not addressed this properly in the context of a race that actively breaks their own silhouette. You simply dismiss it using statistics that you completely made up. 9/10 they're in Worgen form, what does that matter when the point is they can BREAK the silhouette of their form and take up the look of another race! That is the whole POINT of your argument, that a race should maintain one singular silhouette and not look like any other race. And the Worgen has TWO different forms it can take up at will!

Did I make up the statistic that a worgen player will be a furry anthro wolf 100% of the time when engaged in combat? You accuse me of "dismissing" things, but you are dismissing things as well. You are dismissing the fact that worgens cannot look like anything but worgens when engaged in combat, whereas a "blood elf forsaken" would look like a blood elf 100% of the time. They wouldn't instantly change into a forsaken human the moment they get into combat. That is a crucial detail that helps preserve the worgen's visual identity.

If Night Elves and Dwarves were main races mentioned under the Forsaken, then yes it would make sense. Just like Broken would make sense for the Draenei.

If you're going by that argument, remember that blood elves are not mentioned as one of the forsaken's "main races". Humans are: "While comprised primarily of undead humans, the Forsaken are a diverse faction that include several different races at their biological core. However, they have all assumed their racial identity as "Forsaken," due to their shared goals and loyalties."

Both Human and Elves are specific to the Forsaken. From a lore perspective, it absolutely makes sense.

And gnomes. And night elves. But either way, it's irrelevant. The fact that the forsaken is comprised of "mostly humans" is what you should be concerned about.

If your issue is the 'barbershop'

It's not, and I can't even understand how you could possibly have gotten that idea.

[FossilFree]

This thread is about High Elves. Since High Elves are now found in both the Blood Elf variety and the Void Elf variety, it is perfectly reasonable to discuss Blood Elves receiving their overdue San'layn options in this thread.

[Shadesmarr]

Some of the void elf customizations make them look exactly like the High elves. I think they fell into the same category as Wildhammer Dwarves.

[Triceron]

No, that is not my question. I never asked about the family being in that garage. I made a comparison, with the whole population of Kul'Tiras being the house, and the part of the navy you saw in Warcraft 3 being the garage.

And do you remember the context of that? It was to prove if Kul Tirans looked like regular Humans. Which it did.

We see regular Humans amongst Kul Tirans just as we see the large and thin types. Blizzard decided to go *expand the diversity* of Humans by including a playable Large Human variation for Kul Tirans. Despite having a vastly different silhouette, we still regard them as Human.

Did I make up the statistic that a worgen player will be a furry anthro wolf 100% of the time when engaged in combat? You accuse me of "dismissing" things, but you are dismissing things as well. You are dismissing the fact that worgens cannot look like anything but worgens when engaged in combat, whereas a "blood elf forsaken" would look like a blood elf 100% of the time. They wouldn't instantly change into a forsaken human the moment they get into combat. That is a crucial detail that helps preserve the worgen's visual identity.

Is your argument that a Forsaken would change forms in combat? No. Your argument is that a race would be breaking a FIXED silhouette by being given customization options. Beyond that you threw in a bunch of made up statistics so you can dismiss Worgen for having a 'fixed silhouette' 9/10, even though the entire issue you present isn't whether or not the Worgen has a unique silhouette.

Your issue is with a race breaking its visuals to incorporate more customization. Worgen ALREADY do that. It doesn't matter if it happens in combat or out of combat, if your issue is that a race BREAKS its visual identity then by all means you would be arguing against the existence of Worgen.

If you're going by that argument, remember that blood elves are not mentioned as one of the forsaken's "main races". Humans are: "While comprised primarily of undead humans, the Forsaken are a diverse faction that include several different races at their biological core. However, they have all assumed their racial identity as "Forsaken," due to their shared goals and loyalties."

What exactly is the problem here? Forsaken would still be mostly comprised of Humans if Elf became a customizable option. You are literally illustrating an opening for Non-Humans to be added to the Forsaken. It does not say exclusively, it says mostly. So where is the problem?

This is wording that literally spits in the face of treating Forsaken as an exclusively-human race.



Here is the main problem with this whole thing. A normal conversation is supposed to bridge opinions to the point where there can be garnered a mutual understanding, even if opinions differ or disagree. As I've said many times, I'm not arguing against whether this SHOULD or SHOULD NOT happen, but I am pointing out the flaws in the reasoning you are using. Yet what I see is you defending these points arbitrarily for, what I assume, the sake of 'not losing an argument', and that is taking us further and further away from the actual point of the conversation.

Let's try to establish a basic understanding. It's simply enough to understand that you *want* Forsaken to retain their Human look because that is what they already look like, and no other race has options to change their entire race. You are correct that a race that has an established association to a particular design shouldn't alter it completely to look like something else.

The problem with your argument though is that your statements blanketly apply to all other races when you mention things about silhouette, or bring up lore of 'mostly humans' as a reason not to have Forsaken. Well I'm sure the lore doesn't account for real player statistics, and the Horde is not comprised of 40% Blood Elves in the lore despite the real life statistic. This is where I think you need to compromise here, that lore and visual customization is not a reflection of what the game itself wants to pass off as meaningful lore or representation of a certain race.

[Syegfryed]

Well, they very well may do that, but I wouldn't say you can really compare blood elf/void elf duality to undead human/undead elf duality on Forsaken. You are right that thalassian race have two visual identities, but it also now occupies two factions and elves of each faction have their own theme. Forsaken are exclusive on the Horde and most likely will stay that way.

and? still see no problem/difference here

Secondly, blood elves or void elves can't chose from two completely different models to represent their character

At this point is, literally, a non issue, since they can look like two differnt races, forsaken is a forsaken regardless if look like an elf or a human

their differences are based on different textures and different features like hairstyles, colors, etc.

things that people on this threat are wanting to be removed btw

they are not fundamentally two distinct races, they are variants of the same race on two separate factions.

Void elves can still emulate 2 different races, looking like another race, so point still stands

Actually, no race have the option to alter their base modelto something different, the closest one are worgen with their worgen and human form, but even then human form is only for RP and is non-combat only, so you spend like 90% of games content in worgen form. Giving Forsaken option to have blood elf silluette could be possible I guess, I'd have no issue with that lorewise. I find it quite unlikely though, since there are possibly other more easy ways to implement playable undead elf options to the game, like separate allied race, or undead textures on blood elves.

of course is unlikely, the problem is people using double standards about "my void elf should look like alleria, we should look exactly like the leader of our race, even when we are not alleria!, but Forsakens cannot look like sylvanas or nathanos though, they are not like then!1!!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Humans have warlocks as well, but it's made clear that they operate outside normal society. I can imagine the same holds true for Blood Elves, especially after they saw what using fel did to Kael'thas.

I also don't think fel usage is or ever was an iconic aspect of Blood Elves. The Blood Elves may originally have been designed as fel junkies but that was very quickly retconned to "normal mana" junkies, down playing their reliance on fel. Most Blood Elves never actively used fel or drained fel energy.

Iconic does not mean widespread, and what it's clear BE's created a lot of leeway when it came to fel usage because of necessity, but even when the reignited Sunwell, we haven't seen if they have walked back on much of it or making Warlocks "shunned"

As late as BfA we have "Fervent Warscryers" in Nazmir that use blood magic, they seem far closer to Warlocks than Mages, it does make me question if Warlocks as part of BE society have been leaning more to "Blood Mages" than active fel users.

But yeah, it's more about the role fel had in BE culture as part of their survival, even if it wasn't the majority who actively used fel. It speaks more about the openess BE warlocks have to act, which I think it's just more than human ones.

[Syegfryed]

Then show the proof. Show me any lore passage that specifically states that Alleria got her ability to take on a void form from absorbing L'ura's energies. Or a developer tweet stating exactly that.

The perfecionicst fallacy is a variation of the False Dilemma Fallacy, also called the Continuum Fallacy. It goes something like this:

If Policy X does not meet all the objectives as well as i want it to (ie perfectly), then Policy X should be rejected/is false.

This principle downgrades X simply because it isn't perfect. It says in effect " Either the policy is perfect. else we must reject it/is not vallid"

No, when I'm talking about visual identity I'm talking about the silhouette of the player model, and I've said so multiple times in the past:

Again, either way, you are wrong, 2 different races, of 2 different factions already share silhoute and visual identity.
there is a race already who have 2 visual idenety of 2 different races, again, pointless

Both abilities infuse one's body with void energies and changes them, granting enhanced power.

still different in essence since they do different things and act different, even so, the voidin shadow priests is not a permanent change

Hypothesizing

, you should hold yourself a bit in your theories and "hypothesis" you are just going off the roads all the time

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I feel like you're putting wayyyy too much importance on fel and it's position within blood elf society. It was literally a phase they went through (and by they I don't even mean all of blood elf society) for a short period, and shortly thereafter they quickly returned to their roots. It's like you're attempting to define them by one phase throughout their entire existence, despite the fact that the phase was short lived and for the most part they returned to their "standard" practices. Yes the fel created a slight physical change (as is apparent in their eyes), but the cultural implications were far less and for the most part their culture has remained the same. Why push so hard for "felblood" options when that was never a part of the blood elven society that are playable, and based on the little exposure they did have to fel it simply resulted in green eyes (not felblood elves). And DH should remain their own separate thing.

Blood elves have other aspects that should take priority over "fel" options. These include farstrider options (tattoos similar to Alleria who was a farstrider, feathers, braided hair options), magister options (tattoos similar to Rommath, runic markings like the box cover art), blood knight options (golden phoenix tattoos??, golden glowing hair??). In addition, dark ranger options should be made available... though I'd be fine with this becoming a forsaken customization option (though logisitcally it'd make more sense to just give BE the options as the model already exists).

Sure, I agree all those other organizations are also important roles in BE society, my point is that people tend to discount Fel's relevance as just a trend, when I am saying that its impact may have been deeper.

I'm not saying Fel is an outright cornerstone of present BE culture, but I'm talking more about its potential based on how important it was for a while, and that given how we are moving past presenting magic schools as inherently good or evil, Blood Elves have the perfect context to represent a more positive portrayal of Fel usage in a society, and in a personal note, I do think a race/culture where Light and Fel have prominent societal roles would be pretty damn interesting.

Fel is fun and TBH I think it would just be neat to have it bee more integral to a race's aesthetic, and really BE's are set for it, all it takes is Kayn Sunfury reintegrating to BE society -and maybe even have all the Kael'thas followers that didn't die at the Sunwell being reformed- But overal I'm just very into the idea of Liadrin and Kayn interacting. IMO that's a big issue of light worshipping races, they lack contrasts, and again, BE are kinda perfect for it, to present both extremes.

[Rhlor]

please use this thread to discuss this
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ion-Megathread