Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Imperator4321]

Tbh, Suramar doesnt need to stay horde at all it's the kaldorei civilization, horde already have the civilisation of the trolls and all their playable races, why do they need the civilization of the night elves too?
They dont..

The Civilization that the Kal'dorei rejected, the Nightborne of Suramar represent the legacy of the Highborne of the Kal'dorei Empire, the one that embraced the arcane and rejected Elune/Nature, saying the Kal'dorei should have Suramar is ridiculous when Suramar represents everything the Kal'Dorei rejected when they turned against the culture of Azshara and the Highborne why would they now want something that they rejected 10,000 years ago when they exiled the Highborne under pain of death.

It's no longer their civilisation it's been 10,000 since the Highborne and Kal'dorei split, the Highborne went on to become Sin'dorei and Nightborne the cultures and civilisation changed, Does Quel'thalas also belong to the Kal'dorei since the Sin'dorei were once highborne as well? No because Suramar and Quel'thalas currently have nothing in common with what the Kal'dorei civilisation is about (Elune and nature) and represent what they rejected (the culture of the highborne).

[elbleuet]

That sounds so badass, I wish they kept that exchange!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTiBaM9ahTY 4:15

[ravenmoon]

The Civilization that the Kal'dorei rejected, the Nightborne of Suramar represent the legacy of the Highborne of the Kal'dorei Empire, the one that embraced the arcane and rejected Elune/Nature, saying the Kal'dorei should have Suramar is ridiculous when Suramar represents everything the Kal'Dorei rejected when they turned against the culture of Azshara and the Highborne why would they now want something that they rejected 10,000 years ago when they exiled the Highborne under pain of death.

The long vigil is over, many kaldorei returned to civilization when Darnassus was built in addition, Highborne returned too, to claim that the night elves shouldnt have their own civilization because during the long vigil they forewent civilization is a poor veiled excuse, conveniently ignoring those very kaldorei then had it returned after the long vigil. That you think they somehow wouldn't need or want their own cities smacks of a poor excuse to try and justify that the horde should keep something that never belonged to them.


Might as well say Night elves shouldnt have Eldre'thalas or any kaldorei city ever again, including Darnassus, your reason being they abandoned their cities and their civilization before, therefore they shouldnt , even though those who lived in Darnassus returned to it, as well ad the Highborne who never abandoned it.

Your argument makes no sense. Civilization might not be for every kaldorei, but it has never needed to be. There is a need for a race to have it's own civilization, and to have that dominant and stronger on the horde spits on the kaldorei and the alliance they are dominant on, especially while they are homeless, and night elf kind is predominantly alliance, not horde.

Face it, there are compelling arguments for both Siovermoon and Suramar to return to the high elves and the night elves, and I feel they should.

The horde doesnt need them, the original races where these civilizations come from and are built are originally alliance races and were initially dominant on the alliance

- - - Updated - - -

It's no longer their civilisation it's been 10,000 since the Highborne and Kal'dorei split, the Highborne went on to become Sin'dorei and Nightborne the cultures and civilisation changed, Does Quel'thalas also belong to the Kal'dorei since the Sin'dorei were once highborne as well? No because Suramar and Quel'thalas currently have nothing in common with what the Kal'dorei civilisation is about (Elune and nature) and represent what they rejected (the culture of the highborne).

Yet another poster ignoring or forgetting that Highborne are still Kaldorei, sure the entire race of high elves came off a bunch of them, but kaldorei still are Highborne and Highborne come from kaldorei and still do.

Not to mention that Highborne as a caste and group are once more part of the Darnassian society willingly, and they have added more Highborne to their number from Darnassians who had laid that aside 10,000 years ago , and new Darnassians who are very talented in the arcane.

To try to paint both kaldorei civilization, arcane magic, and Highborne as something not kaldorei is just silly, it is part of the race, always has been and continues to be, whether it's a large part of one group, or a tiny part of another, whatever the relative numbers are and the interaction - all the pre-sundering civilization is kaldorei, all the long vigil is kaldorei, all the Highborne, Nightborne, Suramar, Darnassus, Val'sharah, Ashenvale, Azsuna, Cathedral of Eternal night, Temples of Elune, Black Rook Hold, Moonguard Stronghold - whether ruins or pristine, forest or city, all those things are kaldorei.

I love how to try to keep claim on it, these things are conveniently omitted by horde advocates and actively tried to be recast in the light of a new race that has nothing to do with the kaldorei.


Whether you want to admit it or not, the Sin'dorei are from and of the high elves, the Shal'dorei are from and of the Kaldorei - they are not horde native races, they are alliance races that have had a group aligned with the horde, and then overloaded with the best assets of the high elf and night elf peoples to feed the egos of horde players who don't really need them or care of them, and at the expense of alliance players who just see their stuff thrown to the horde without much need any longer. Horde overtook alliance as the dominant faction way way back. The horde never needed the Nightborne or Suramar, they already had Forsaken and Blood elves for arcane magic and an elven city that doesn't really fit on their faction. They didn't need Suramar.

Furthermore, with Dazar'alor being so amazing they don't need Silvermoon either, in fact, work should go into more amazing troll and orc cities rather than giving the horde elven stuff, while much loved elven races on the alliance side are homeless, watching origin cities like Suramar for the Darnassians, and Silvermoon for the Void elves and high elves sitting on the horde because the horde must simply have the best of everything, even the alliance races' things.

[Mace]

The Civilization that the Kal'dorei rejected, the Nightborne of Suramar represent the legacy of the Highborne of the Kal'dorei Empire, the one that embraced the arcane and rejected Elune/Nature, saying the Kal'dorei should have Suramar is ridiculous when Suramar represents everything the Kal'Dorei rejected when they turned against the culture of Azshara and the Highborne why would they now want something that they rejected 10,000 years ago when they exiled the Highborne under pain of death.
.

Also this is all irrelevant, it is still kaldorei civilization, kaldorei assets that are shown and given to the horde instead. And the best of it too.

Talk about cultural changes, acceptance and rejection is clearly an internal affair that the kaldorei would determine, but to say the kaldorei can't have Suramar because of that reason makes no sense to me.

Might as well say the kaldorei can't have Dire Maul, and can't have Darnassus too - it's effectively saying sorry, night elves can't have night elf stuff, any longer because in the previous era that ended, they had turned away from all these things.

You would also say night elves can't have Highborne - but wait they do, and add night elves can't have arcane magic - but wait they do, in fact as long as it is tied or connected to their origin or their past they can't have it - let's ignore the fact that it's theirs, let's ignore the fact hat clearly the kaldorei have moved on from the long vigil and now are incorporating all aspects of their past.

But why say these things? because you want to invalidate any claim the night elves have to their own assets, as if you'd convince us that they shouldn't have Suramar or any kaldorei city - when really it's the horde that shouldn't have them. Horde doesn't need them, it's the main assets of an alliance race, what's it doing on their? Except giving horde fan service at the expense of yet another core alliance race.

And woebetide any alliance player asks or states it should return to the night elves and not stay in the horde - here come the 101 reasons trying to invalidate any reason. It's b/s reasoning ofc, you'd have to ignore everything that has happened to the night elves since wow began, and then try and reject everything about them prior to the sundering as not being part of them. Which you can't do.

Bottom line, all of this is kaldorei stuff and should be present with the kaldorei - for good or ill, they really need to stop giving the horde the best stuff of the elves. The horde don't need it, the alliance does and it doesn't really belong or fit on the horde and the ideals they created for it. They talk in one breadth of honouring the heart of warcraft by sticking to these two factions, yet warp them beyond recognition in the next breadth by overloading the horde with elves they clearly no longer need the boost from and continuing to basically nerf and rub alliance races that aren't human in the ground.

it's like they want to make their stuff as crappy as possible. I get they love the horde, but surely at some point, they have to realise constantly giving the best of everything you do for the races to the horde isn't actually going to go down well with everyone.

[Imperator4321]

Also this is all irrelevant, it is still kaldorei civilization, kaldorei assets that are shown and given to the horde instead. And the best of it too.

Talk about cultural changes, acceptance and rejection is clearly an internal affair that the kaldorei would determine, but to say the kaldorei can't have Suramar because of that reason makes no sense to me.

Might as well say the kaldorei can't have Dire Maul, and can't have Darnassus too - it's effectively saying sorry, night elves can't have night elf stuff, any longer because in the previous era that ended, they had turned away from all these things.

You would also say night elves can't have Highborne - but wait they do, and add night elves can't have arcane magic - but wait they do, in fact as long as it is tied or connected to their origin or their past they can't have it - let's ignore the fact that it's theirs, let's ignore the fact hat clearly the kaldorei have moved on from the long vigil and now are incorporating all aspects of their past.

But why say these things? because you want to invalidate any claim the night elves have to their own assets, as if you'd convince us that they shouldn't have Suramar or any kaldorei city - when really it's the horde that shouldn't have them. Horde doesn't need them, it's the main assets of an alliance race, what's it doing on their? Except giving horde fan service at the expense of yet another core alliance race.

And woebetide any alliance player asks or states it should return to the night elves and not stay in the horde - here come the 101 reasons trying to invalidate any reason. It's b/s reasoning ofc, you'd have to ignore everything that has happened to the night elves since wow began, and then try and reject everything about them prior to the sundering as not being part of them. Which you can't do.

Bottom line, all of this is kaldorei stuff and should be present with the kaldorei - for good or ill, they really need to stop giving the horde the best stuff of the elves. The horde don't need it, the alliance does and it doesn't really belong or fit on the horde and the ideals they created for it. They talk in one breadth of honouring the heart of warcraft by sticking to these two factions, yet warp them beyond recognition in the next breadth by overloading the horde with elves they clearly no longer need the boost from and continuing to basically nerf and rub alliance races that aren't human in the ground.

it's like they want to make their stuff as crappy as possible. I get they love the horde, but surely at some point, they have to realise constantly giving the best of everything you do for the races to the horde isn't actually going to go down well with everyone.

The Nightborne are the remnants of pre-sundering Kal'dorei society specifically the Highborne who rejected Elune and reverance of Nature to instead revere the Arcane & Well of Eternity, the Nightborne continued this they simply replaced the well of eternity with the Nightwell for 10,000 years they continued this while their Kal'dorei exiled the highborne who continued to practice arcane magic and those highborne became the Quel'Dorei who rejected Elune and the Night to revere the Sun.

The Nightborne, Kal'dorei, Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei all came from the same original culture but they all changed over the 10,000 years they were seperated. Suramar stopped being a representitation of night elf civilisation when the Kal'dorei rejected the Arcane and lavish/self indulgent lifestyle of the highborne for a simplistic life of reverance of elune and nature.

The Kal'dorei allowing the Shen'dralar back into their society does not represent any great reclaimation of their previous culture, the Shen'dralar and those who choose to learn from them and become mages were treated with suspicion and outright hostility they are tolerated but not accepted by any means (same way warlocks are treated in majority of other societies on azeroth).

I'm not fine with the treatment of the Kal'dorei by the writers using them as the go-to punching bag of the horde in every almost every conflict between the alliance and horde sucked and i sympathize with their fans even though i don't play Night elves (or any elves) myself but the writing of the Sin'dorei and Nightborne joining the horde was perfectly fine in the context it was provided, the Sin'dorei joining the Horde was motivated by a desire for survival, the alliance (from their perspective) had abandoned them, they had a line of communication with the horde (via sylvanas) and the forsaken were they closest political neightbors, the horde was originally characterized by outcasts joining together for survival which perfectly fits the characterization the Blood Elves were given in Burning Crusade.

The Blood elves joining an alliance of convienence with the Horde also fits their previous history with the Alliance whom they only ever supported when it directly served to benefit/protect Quel'thalas. They only allied with Arathor to defeat the Amani, they only started supporting the Alliance of Lordaeron when the Horde threatened Quel'thalas, they left as soon as the alliance no longer served their interests after the Second War.

The Nightborne joined because of their commonality with the Blood Elves, their shared heritage as highborne, and their similar struggles with arcane addiction. Tyrande was distrusting and dismissive of the Nightborne and their plight only interested in stopping the legion in suramar.Maybe if Mordent Evenshade or a representitive from another alliance race was there instead of Tyrande the Nightborne would have had a more positive view of the Alliance but thats not what happened and as written the Nightborne joining the Horde was perfectly justified in the text provided.

[Beloren]

The Nightborne are the remnants of pre-sundering Kal'dorei society specifically the Highborne who rejected Elune and reverance of Nature to instead revere the Arcane & Well of Eternity, the Nightborne continued this they simply replaced the well of eternity with the Nightwell for 10,000 years they continued this while their Kal'dorei exiled the highborne who continued to practice arcane magic and those highborne became the Quel'Dorei who rejected Elune and the Night to revere the Sun.

Rejection of Elune or nature is not confirmed as a feature of the Suramar community that stayed behind and later became Nightborne, the emphasis is the continuous excessive use of arcane magic, not the abandoning of nature or Elune, those aren't touched on.

In fact we see evidence of Elune in both the playable priest class and the priest statues in the city, and nature practice as it was in the Kaldorei pre-sundering society around the time of the invasion, continued on when we see the effects of High Botanist Tel'arn and his small army of nature wielders - this is basically the kaldorei civilization state continued on.

While the rejection of arcane magic is a major feature of the surviving Hyjal refugees from WotA in their aim to prevent the Legion's return, a state that ended in WC3 (you mustn't forget), the rejection of nature and Elune is not part of the Suramar narrative, not even mentioned, which means it holds no significance in characterising the Nightborne.

The same can be said of the Highborne from Dire Maul who have re-established the caste and growing it from arcane talented Darnassians, theirs is an arcane focus, in the kaldorei Highborne tradition -

you may highlight both the Highborne and Nightborne as lacking aspects like the strong nature reverence or Elune faith that the rest of the Darnassians have, but it doesn't change their nature as kaldorei or being part of the Kaldorei lore and another facet of this elven people.

It is what it is, the Nightborne and Highborne are no less Kaldorei in their culture and relevance than the Darnassians, they just emphasise another part of it.

The Nightborne, Kal'dorei, Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei all came from the same original culture but they all changed over the 10,000 years they were seperated. Suramar stopped being a representitation of night elf civilisation when the Kal'dorei rejected the Arcane and lavish/self indulgent lifestyle of the highborne for a simplistic life of reverance of elune and nature.

The Nightborne and Highborne kaldorei are still in a major Kaldorei culture. The Darnassians may have deviated into a fusion of the pre-arcane era nature reverence with a priesthood that adapted to cope with the times, their culture is also fully Kaldorei.

You must recognise that though the Thalassian Quel'dorei comes form them and have similarities to them, both the Shalassian and Shen'dralar peoples, their city and their culture are actually Kaldorei, always were and always will be unless blizzard decides to evolve them to something else separate from their history down the line (like they did with the Thalassians). These are the groups that show how the high elves connect to the Night elves. They don't stop becoming night elves or Kaldorei because they feel closer to the culture of the Thalassians than they do the current Darnassians.

You need to recognise that the Thalassian culture is a derived version of the Kaldorei culture in lore, and the culture of the Highborne and Nightborne is the kaldorei culture it was derived from. It is still kaldorei.

The Kal'dorei allowing the Shen'dralar back into their society does not represent any great reclaimation of their previous culture, the Shen'dralar and those who choose to learn from them and become mages were treated with suspicion and outright hostility they are tolerated but not accepted by any means (same way warlocks are treated in majority of other societies on azeroth).

This is correct, neither does it have to represent a great reclamation of that portion of the kaldorei culture. The fact is that what you see in the Nightborne and Shen'dralar is still Kaldorei, whether it becomes popular amongst the Darnassians or remains contained to the Highborne amongst them and the Nightborne on the horde.

It is acceptable for a large race to have different views on life, and for a long lived race to have more than one culture, focus and attribute. It doesn't erase or stop it from being Kaldorei.

I'm not fine with the treatment of the Kal'dorei by the writers using them as the go-to punching bag of the horde in every almost every conflict between the alliance and horde sucked and i sympathize with their fans even though i don't play Night elves (or any elves) myself but the writing of the Sin'dorei and Nightborne joining the horde was perfectly fine in the context it was provided, the Sin'dorei joining the Horde was motivated by a desire for survival, the alliance (from their perspective) had abandoned them, they had a line of communication with the horde (via sylvanas) and the forsaken were they closest political neightbors, the horde was originally characterized by outcasts joining together for survival which perfectly fits the characterization the Blood Elves were given in Burning Crusade.

I think you and Mace agree on this one. I am in partial agreement, I think they erred by nerfing one of their most popular races, but the blood elves and the horde were the direct beneficiaries of this - many of the developments we like on the horde, especially the elven ones would not have happened if they didn't got that root. And while many alliance fans now call for the reversal of the elven trend, I do question why it has to be at the expense of the horde elves - i mean do they HAVE to claim Silvermoon and Suramar? Why not just build a new amazing city for both Night elves, like Zin'azshari, and void/high elves?

The Blood elves joining an alliance of convienence with the Horde also fits their previous history with the Alliance whom they only ever supported when it directly served to benefit/protect Quel'thalas. They only allied with Arathor to defeat the Amani, they only started supporting the Alliance of Lordaeron when the Horde threatened Quel'thalas, they left as soon as the alliance no longer served their interests after the Second War.

It's a retconned history, or rather a recast one, to present the high elves as more amenable, most don't buoy it, but who cares iif they don't, it's the lore right now. Whether they find it believable or not that High elves will side with the violent monsters who tried to destroy their kingdom over the mistreatment of a Prince that ended up selling his soul to the Legion - convinced or unconvinced, the explanation blizzard provide is a plausible one, whether they like it or not.

The Nightborne joined because of their commonality with the Blood Elves, their shared heritage as highborne, and their similar struggles with arcane addiction. Tyrande was distrusting and dismissive of the Nightborne and their plight only interested in stopping the legion in suramar.Maybe if Mordent Evenshade or a representitive from another alliance race was there instead of Tyrande the Nightborne would have had a more positive view of the Alliance but thats not what happened and as written the Nightborne joining the Horde was perfectly justified in the text provided.

Erm, it had more to do with Tyrande not pursuing relations, than commonality with the blood elves. Even Thalyssra highlights the commonality with the Darnassians as the logical choice for the Nightborne, but perhaps Elune's wisdom guided Tyrande from renewing that bond.

She acknowledges there is greater commonality and bond between them and the kaldorei and this is what was expected, except Tyrande doesn't show up, only Liadrin does to pursue relationships. There is sufficient commonality between blood elf and nightborne for it to work too- though commonality is really irrelevant here.

Some have indeed suggested what you have suggested, that Tyrande could have had a more positive view, it's quite possible - she is the one that rescued Darth'remar part of the palace Highborne that were directly responsible for portalling the demons in, and she doesn't hold them with the same suspicion her boyfriend (now husband did). She also fights for Illidan releasing him, she is the one that stands with her husband in lifting the ban on the Highborne and arguing for the Shen'dralar and Darnassians to unite (this was famously opposed by Maiev), it stands to reason she could just have easily had a very different more compassionate approach to the Nightborne.

Still, I would point out to the naysayers, that Tyrande's actual reaction in 7.1 is also plausible, there was a realistic chance she would be angry and embarrassed about the Nightborne - Kaldorei are proud people, and this is the city she and the majority of the Night elves with all their principles and virtue come from, now the embarrassment of their addiction and the folly of letting the legion in again is on display for the whole world, and the people she thought either dead or at least partially heroes for opposing Azshara and the Legion 10k years ago, have now instead foolishly opened up to it... again.. and now she must risk her life and that of noble people who did so 10k years ago for a group that decided not to go the distance with weaponry and power that really could have saved lives in the kaldorei resistance.

Yet that power has been used to turn them into crippled addicts and sold to the legion who can now use it to claim the victory so many lives have been denied.

Tyrande's sceptical and angry reaction is not implausible. But it's not really the cause of the Nightborne choosing the horde, it helped though (and was written that way), Tyrande does help the Nightborne and her former city despite her anger, and the Nightborne do prove themselves by this time staying to fight.

The reason they go horde is because Tyrande snubs them, she doesn't show up, but Liadrin also compassionate and respectful during the war is the one that shows up - it is that simple.

The Nightborne have more in common with the alliance that boasts Kaldorei, including a Highborne community led by the Shen'dralar, as well as High elves. They chose horde because the blood elves pursued them.

But is that a good reason for all of them to remain horde after witnessing the events of Tel

[Rhlor]

please create a thread to talk about shal'dorei, kaldorei and suramar. this is the high elf thread!

[elbleuet]

please create a thread to talk about shal'dorei, kaldorei and suramar. this is the high elf thread!

I believe blood elves have their own thread too.

[Varodoc]

Looks like those ugly purple brutes aren't so popular if they don't even have their own megathread

[Mace]

The Nightborne are the remnants of pre-sundering Kal'dorei society specifically the Highborne who rejected Elune and reverance of Nature to instead revere the Arcane & Well of Eternity, the Nightborne continued this they simply replaced the well of eternity with the Nightwell for 10,000 years they continued this while their Kal'dorei exiled the highborne who continued to practice arcane magic and those highborne became the Quel'Dorei who rejected Elune and the Night to revere the Sun.

The Nightborne, Kal'dorei, Quel'dorei/Sin'dorei all came from the same original culture but they all changed over the 10,000 years they were seperated. Suramar stopped being a representitation of night elf civilisation when the Kal'dorei rejected the Arcane and lavish/self indulgent lifestyle of the highborne for a simplistic life of reverance of elune and nature.

The Kal'dorei allowing the Shen'dralar back into their society does not represent any great reclaimation of their previous culture, the Shen'dralar and those who choose to learn from them and become mages were treated with suspicion and outright hostility they are tolerated but not accepted by any means (same way warlocks are treated in majority of other societies on azeroth).

I'm not fine with the treatment of the Kal'dorei by the writers using them as the go-to punching bag of the horde in every almost every conflict between the alliance and horde sucked and i sympathize with their fans even though i don't play Night elves (or any elves) myself but the writing of the Sin'dorei and Nightborne joining the horde was perfectly fine in the context it was provided, the Sin'dorei joining the Horde was motivated by a desire for survival, the alliance (from their perspective) had abandoned them, they had a line of communication with the horde (via sylvanas) and the forsaken were they closest political neightbors, the horde was originally characterized by outcasts joining together for survival which perfectly fits the characterization the Blood Elves were given in Burning Crusade.

The Blood elves joining an alliance of convienence with the Horde also fits their previous history with the Alliance whom they only ever supported when it directly served to benefit/protect Quel'thalas. They only allied with Arathor to defeat the Amani, they only started supporting the Alliance of Lordaeron when the Horde threatened Quel'thalas, they left as soon as the alliance no longer served their interests after the Second War.

The Nightborne joined because of their commonality with the Blood Elves, their shared heritage as highborne, and their similar struggles with arcane addiction. Tyrande was distrusting and dismissive of the Nightborne and their plight only interested in stopping the legion in suramar.Maybe if Mordent Evenshade or a representitive from another alliance race was there instead of Tyrande the Nightborne would have had a more positive view of the Alliance but thats not what happened and as written the Nightborne joining the Horde was perfectly justified in the text provided.

@Beloren answered this very well, and let me highlight what resonated with me the most, in his response:

you may highlight both the Highborne and Nightborne as lacking aspects like the strong nature reverence or Elune faith that the rest of the Darnassians have, but it doesn't change their nature as kaldorei or being part of the Kaldorei lore and another facet of this elven people.

It is what it is, the Nightborne and Highborne are no less Kaldorei in their culture and relevance than the Darnassians, they just emphasise another part of it.

Spot on here

The Nightborne and Highborne kaldorei are still in a major Kaldorei culture. The Darnassians may have deviated into a fusion of the pre-arcane era nature reverence with a priesthood that adapted to cope with the times, their culture is also fully Kaldorei.

You need to recognise that the Thalassian culture is a derived version of the Kaldorei culture in lore, and the culture of the Highborne and Nightborne is the kaldorei culture it was derived from. It is still kaldorei.

Also this, in particular the bolded part. People may cry and scream about the similarity of the Nightbonre to the blood elves, but there is no denying the Nightborne are showing you kaldorei pre-sundering culture, not Thalassian culture, and this is also the culture of the Darnassian Highborne. You are being shown Kaldorei culture, and that part of it is similar to the Thalassian, because the Thalassians are a culture evolved from that part.


People too easily forget that high elves and night elves are Elves, they have far more in common than not, but the faction divide creates that illusion. And blizzard are all to happy to foster it, so they emphasise the Elune nature side in the night elves, more than the arcane side that holds the commonality with the high elves. But it's there, quite plainly in the lore, and easily evidenced in the Nightborne and Shen'dralar Highborne as being very Kaldorei.

THe night elves are the elf progenitor raec, just like the Zandalari are for the trolls.

And while many alliance fans now call for the reversal of the elven trend, I do question why it has to be at the expense of the horde elves - i mean do they HAVE to claim Silvermoon and Suramar? Why not just build a new amazing city for both Night elves, like Zin'azshari, and void/high elves?

Because for the alliance to grow, it has to come at the expense of the horde. The horde growth through the blood elves, took alliance fans over - it was at the expense of the alliance, both in losing the high elves (as playable) and in the stunted development, suppression and nerfing of the night elves so they would be amazing or attractive.

Now the horde has the far greater numbers in the elder game, you need some of that population back. You won't get it back if the horde elves remain so pretty and pristinely radiant on the horde - the most effective way, as Ravenmoon puts it, is to take Sivermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar from the horde and blow up the high/void elves and night elves so they are very attractive and awesome again. This will lure some of the hardcores back, at least the elf lovers. Inspiring them to make things work on the alliance, and reducing the horde elf fanaticism which is a distortion on the identity and spirit of the horde.

Face it the elves in their pristine advanced culture don't fit with the horde races, but the alliance ones, and now the horde is popular (which is the reason why we had them so amazing on the horde), they don't need to stay there. You only need a token remnant pretty much like the void elves are on the alliance, to remain on the horde, and shift the full force and presentation of the Thalassians and night people to be present on the alliance which is where both blood elves and Nightborne come from.

That's why. The horde has to lose for the alliance to gain. This is the way.

[Beloren]

Looks like those ugly purple brutes aren't so popular if they don't even have their own megathread

Haha, they never were, only a couple of people seem to care at all about them, and it's their sheer stubbornness that keeps conversations on them going.

You find out most people talk about high/blood/void elves far far more. Night elves/Nightborne are only slightly more popular than races like dwarves, orcs, trolls and Draenei, nothing compared to Thalassians in terms of player reaction.

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Because for the alliance to grow, it has to come at the expense of the horde. The horde growth through the blood elves, took alliance fans over - it was at the expense of the alliance, both in losing the high elves (as playable) and in the stunted development, suppression and nerfing of the night elves so they would be amazing or attractive.

Now the horde has the far greater numbers in the elder game, you need some of that population back. You won't get it back if the horde elves remain so pretty and pristinely radiant on the horde - the most effective way, as Ravenmoon puts it, is to take Sivermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar from the horde and blow up the high/void elves and night elves so they are very attractive and awesome again. This will lure some of the hardcores back, at least the elf lovers. Inspiring them to make things work on the alliance, and reducing the horde elf fanaticism which is a distortion on the identity and spirit of the horde.

Face it the elves in their pristine advanced culture don't fit with the horde races, but the alliance ones, and now the horde is popular (which is the reason why we had them so amazing on the horde), they don't need to stay there. You only need a token remnant pretty much like the void elves are on the alliance, to remain on the horde, and shift the full force and presentation of the Thalassians and night people to be present on the alliance which is where both blood elves and Nightborne come from.

That's why. The horde has to lose for the alliance to gain. This is the way.

Well, I feel they don't have to lose these things to draw alliance players back. I wrote something about it here:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52840127

That was one of my main points in the post a few replies above yours, if you want to check it out.

The alliance is still playable in a 60/40 ratio and in 65/35 or even 80/20 because of the technologies that came in.

The need to improve the alliance from the gameplay point of view I.e to improve the quality of the game isn’t really there, not like it was in classic for improving the horde when none of the technologies like xrealm/LFG/R etc and same faction activities like Same faction BGs/arenas were around.

This was the urgency that shifted the franchise focus to be horde centric to boost the horde and save the game that needed realms far more balanced then than they are now. As long as the alliance has the more human looking races people relate to, it makes sense for the tone of the game to be horde centric as the alliance nature will pull people to it by default before they switch.

It is also a bigger cash cow for blizzard triggering paid faction transfers which will be tolerated as long as the imbalance isn’t detrimental to the gameplay, which so far it hasn’t been, precisely because you can play alliance okay even if it’s just not as busy as the horde.

Finally I don’t think the devs want to, I think pushing the horde first for many years has developed an affection for those orcs and Tauren and trolls and it certainly fits the whole woke theme. Where blood elves and Nightborne give an aesthetic option for those who such things matter.

They can throw the alliance a few bones. I don’t think over powered racials is the answer, but making the alliance feel a lot more majestic might work.

Especially boosting night elves and void elves without affecting blood elves and Nightborne.

What I mean is that focus on making night elves the amazing Kaldorei of the best parts of both their pre-sundering empire and their long vigil period. Give them a Zin’Azsahri type amazing city, great forests with powerful Highborne And Moonguard Alongside powerfull Druids, rangers in nearby forests and Moon Priests operating great in both parts. Make them feel the massive powerful original elf race they were in the earlier lore and War of the Ancients, sort of like how the Zandalari are to trolls rather than just a much forest elf side group irrelevant and on the brink of extinction - this revival would be a powerful incentive attracting many to both the wild and high civilised sides of the Kaldorei and the Much broader fantasy they initially represented

You don’t need to give them Suramar or Silvermoon, just do them up great, improve their models a bit more.

Don’t stop with the Kaldorei, massively develop the void and high elves with new cool ideas and infrastructure and lore building.

Do likewise for void elves. Bring high elves in properly as a thing that is tied to void elves. Like void elves need a high elf pairing to access much more of the void without succumbing to its madness while high elves find their light powers are magnified by being bonded to a void elf as the light surges in reaction opposition. The pairing balances both high and void. Let these elves have the void/arcane, light/arcane focus while blood elves are more about arcane, fel and blood. They keep their paladins but they light/void thing becomes more an alliance Thalassian thing. Which fits the Alleria/Turalyon thing.

You can create a great new city for the void and high elves in 10.0 and a new legacy for the high elves tied to the new ren’dorei. Could be something interesting like a great Thalassian city that has a light and void mirror. The fans would love it, while the blood elves continue as is in Silvermoon and the horde.

Night Elves - the star arcane civilization
Moon and starlight
The night, night religion
High arcane/city And well
Forest wild half
Animals, half animals, World trees
Nature Druid wild magic.

Alliance Thalassians
Void arcane frost magic
Light arcane magic
Ranger wood elf Farstrider vibe

Blood elves have a more arcane, fel, blood crystal magic vibe thing going, much smaller on the paladin and ranger fronts.


This would boost the profile of the alliance as elves are really popular, wi thy out making horde ones feel bad or losing out.

The improved alliance elves will draw a few lore orientated players back to make things work on the alliance.

You need these people cos they are enthusiastic about playing the alliance for the great fantasy not just racials, so they’ll be devoted. And the fantasy of the Kaldorei civilization is the stars combined with it’s wild magic foresty long vigil other half is a very powerful one unique one offering something very different but equally attractive to the Thalassians. So is that of the high elves but in a new symbiotic void elf duality.

This Will be good because humans alone is obviously not enough. And great developments inspire the sort of people who would make their home on the alliance and expend the energy to build it up. Without this sort of inspiration they will not. That’s why you need to boost their elves a lot.

Then they will work extra hard to make guilds work and raids work, fuelled by the fantasy that is attractive and with more raiding guilds working into the alliance it will solve the main problem enough

The horde may still have the majority but the alliance would have options fuelled by the fantasy lovers who are inspired by the cool developments to the alliance elves.

I wouldn’t recommend nerfing blood elves or Nightborne by making them lose stufff, it’s not necessary and may prove harmful - causing damage to your playerbase unnecessarily.

All you need do is just let the elf focus be on the alliance for a couple of expansions in order to build their races up and re-establish their original attractiveness, especially the popular elves for a couple of expansions ( I recommend giving New Zin’Azshari and another void capital in the next expansion and really building both groups up considerably.

Fortunately we are at a stage where we can now afford to let alliance races shine in the lore without fearing people will abandon the horde, the racials don’t need to be changed, nor do the horde elves need to be nerfed.

The alliance elves need major boosting. That’s all

There, that's what I think should happen. Just quieten down on the blood elves/nightbonre for a couple of expansions, greatly develop Night elves and void/high elves, then bring em back into play on a more even footing, even if the alliance ones are ahead, - the horde ones don't really need to lose anything I would argue.

[Ardenaso]

meh, Suramar should just stay as Horde. If anything the Horde should get more Alliance content. Alteraci Humans for the Horde

[Rhlor]

@Beloren answered this very well, and let me highlight what resonated with me the most, in his response:



Spot on here


Also this, in particular the bolded part. People may cry and scream about the similarity of the Nightbonre to the blood elves, but there is no denying the Nightborne are showing you kaldorei pre-sundering culture, not Thalassian culture, and this is also the culture of the Darnassian Highborne. You are being shown Kaldorei culture, and that part of it is similar to the Thalassian, because the Thalassians are a culture evolved from that part.


People too easily forget that high elves and night elves are Elves, they have far more in common than not, but the faction divide creates that illusion. And blizzard are all to happy to foster it, so they emphasise the Elune nature side in the night elves, more than the arcane side that holds the commonality with the high elves. But it's there, quite plainly in the lore, and easily evidenced in the Nightborne and Shen'dralar Highborne as being very Kaldorei.

THe night elves are the elf progenitor raec, just like the Zandalari are for the trolls.


Because for the alliance to grow, it has to come at the expense of the horde. The horde growth through the blood elves, took alliance fans over - it was at the expense of the alliance, both in losing the high elves (as playable) and in the stunted development, suppression and nerfing of the night elves so they would be amazing or attractive.

Now the horde has the far greater numbers in the elder game, you need some of that population back. You won't get it back if the horde elves remain so pretty and pristinely radiant on the horde - the most effective way, as Ravenmoon puts it, is to take Sivermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar from the horde and blow up the high/void elves and night elves so they are very attractive and awesome again. This will lure some of the hardcores back, at least the elf lovers. Inspiring them to make things work on the alliance, and reducing the horde elf fanaticism which is a distortion on the identity and spirit of the horde.

Face it the elves in their pristine advanced culture don't fit with the horde races, but the alliance ones, and now the horde is popular (which is the reason why we had them so amazing on the horde), they don't need to stay there. You only need a token remnant pretty much like the void elves are on the alliance, to remain on the horde, and shift the full force and presentation of the Thalassians and night people to be present on the alliance which is where both blood elves and Nightborne come from.

That's why. The horde has to lose for the alliance to gain. This is the way.

make a thread to discuss this !! this is the high elf thread!

some moderator please !!

[elbleuet]

meh, Suramar should just stay as Horde. If anything the Horde should get more Alliance content. Alteraci Humans for the Horde

I would really love it.

make a thread to discuss this !! this is the high elf thread!

some moderator please !!

Just stop. You're the first discussing about Blood elves in this thread. Nightborne and Nightelves are somewhat linked to the High elves so why not.

[Vaedan]

The Civilization that the Kal'dorei rejected, the Nightborne of Suramar represent the legacy of the Highborne of the Kal'dorei Empire, the one that embraced the arcane and rejected Elune/Nature, saying the Kal'dorei should have Suramar is ridiculous when Suramar represents everything the Kal'Dorei rejected when they turned against the culture of Azshara and the Highborne why would they now want something that they rejected 10,000 years ago when they exiled the Highborne under pain of death.

It's no longer their civilisation it's been 10,000 since the Highborne and Kal'dorei split, the Highborne went on to become Sin'dorei and Nightborne the cultures and civilisation changed, Does Quel'thalas also belong to the Kal'dorei since the Sin'dorei were once highborne as well? No because Suramar and Quel'thalas currently have nothing in common with what the Kal'dorei civilisation is about (Elune and nature) and represent what they rejected (the culture of the highborne).

They had their reason for banning arcane magic from their society and that reason is no longer valid - Burning Legion is defeated and their invasion is no longer a huge threat. Not to mention that kaldorei have been transforming their worldview for years now, which eventually led shren'dalar returning and kaldorei training mages again. They are coming back to their arcane roots already, so there is no reason why this notion should not be further explored.

snip

To be honest, I would rather see it:

Dalaran - Alliance
Suramar - Neutral
Silvermoon - Neutral

I believe that with the addition of Zandalari, Horde magic side could be personalized mostly by them. They fit into the Horde way better then any elf ever could and they are formidable mages as well.

Silvermoon should be neutral because they never really cared about factions. They were always only temporary members of the Alliance and usually left when they saw fit, with some groups and invididuals maintaining their ties to that faction. I believe same should happen to Quel'thalas now - leave the Horde officialy, maintaining neutral position in the world politics and allowing its citizens to freely chose which faction they want to help, thus blood elves on the Horde and void elves on the Alliance gameplay-wise. The thing is, Horde did not really contributed meaningful help for Quel'thalas since they officialy joined it. Ghostlands are still undead-infested (meaning Horde did not provide enough support to reclaim the land) and during Amani crisis, Halduron had to invite Vereesa and her Silver Covenant Rangers to aid them, since he did not have enough men to protect his own land (which means Horde again did not send help and since there was a Alliance - Horde war going on, it is possible Garrosh requested blood elves to contribute on fronts he wanted to push). I don't think blood elves should forget Horde helped in their hour of need, but so did the Alliance eventually, in lesser extent.

[ravenmoon]

I would really love it.



Just stop. You're the first discussing about Blood elves in this thread. Nightborne and Nightelves are somewhat linked to the High elves so why not.

Thanks, exactly - he brings up the point, and the discussion I responded to was with respect to the high elves getting Silvermoon, and including the night elves getting Suramar as it was relevant the ensuing discussion was a handful of responses in relation, I believe everyone of those responses spoke about the high elves and Quel'thalas and some even mentioned the connection making them highly relevant.

Tbh, I just think he recognises the arguments have a point, doesnt want to concede this and so moves to block it..

[Mungho]

To be honest, I would rather see it:

Dalaran - Alliance
Suramar - Neutral
Silvermoon - Neutral

But what two Alliance cities would go neutral to balance that?

Looks like those ugly purple brutes aren't so popular if they don't even have their own megathread

Maybe Blizzard shouldn't have made them hideous abominations. They should have just copy-pasted the Night Elves as their model. Then done the same for the Alliance(with the BE model) so they could have their High Elves.

[ravenmoon]

They had their reason for banning arcane magic from their society and that reason is no longer valid - Burning Legion is defeated and their invasion is no longer a huge threat. Not to mention that kaldorei have been transforming their worldview for years now, which eventually led shren'dalar returning and kaldorei training mages again. They are coming back to their arcane roots already, so there is no reason why this notion should not be further explored.



To be honest, I would rather see it:

Dalaran - Alliance
Suramar - Neutral
Silvermoon - Neutral

I believe that with the addition of Zandalari, Horde magic side could be personalized mostly by them. They fit into the Horde way better then any elf ever could and they are formidable mages as well.

Silvermoon should be neutral because they never really cared about factions. They were always only temporary members of the Alliance and usually left when they saw fit, with some groups and invididuals maintaining their ties to that faction. I believe same should happen to Quel'thalas now - leave the Horde officialy, maintaining neutral position in the world politics and allowing its citizens to freely chose which faction they want to help, thus blood elves on the Horde and void elves on the Alliance gameplay-wise. The thing is, Horde did not really contributed meaningful help for Quel'thalas since they officialy joined it. Ghostlands are still undead-infested (meaning Horde did not provide enough support to reclaim the land) and during Amani crisis, Halduron had to invite Vereesa and her Silver Covenant Rangers to aid them, since he did not have enough men to protect his own land (which means Horde again did not send help and since there was a Alliance - Horde war going on, it is possible Garrosh requested blood elves to contribute on fronts he wanted to push). I don't think blood elves should forget Horde helped in their hour of need, but so did the Alliance eventually, in lesser extent.

Neutral would be the best option for blizzard they dont need to create new cities for night elves and high elves I mean why should they, this is exactly what Suramar and Silvermoon are already, nor do they need to deprive the horde groups angry the hardcore horde elf boris faction that are quite passionate on the forums

Neutral might also have the same effect, it will inadvertently raise the profile of the alliance elves strengthening their appeal and role, while at the same time diminishing the elven power appeal on the horde, shifting it to the alliance sufficiently.

Sharing is a loss to the horde and a reduction of the elven influence, not as much as I initially suggested, but it has always been the most sensible approach, the only problem is that it requires some sort of faction co-existence between horde and alliance in these zones and blizzard might be unwilling to do that with such a polarising race as the elves have turned out to be.

I feel, it's easy to create situations that necessitate and even force a cohabitation or a removal to neutral state while citizens in those cities can align themselves with whatever faction.. this happens in Dalaran, Shattrath and every neutral city of an expansion hub, anyway and could actually create interesting scenarios.

Lore wise, I can easily see enough Nightborne and Silvermoon residents choosing the alliance and night/high/void elves over the horde after rece t events and the nature and character of the elves as we know them...its far more alliance orientated anyway, and the citizens choosing to instead be more involved in global affairs like Dalaran instead of pandering to a faction, leaving faction loyalties down to individual choice of their citizens. Especially if this is the only way for peace and unity in a near extinct elven race world wide. Elf on elf fighting strictly prohibited in Quel'thalas and Suramar, which basically mea s most elves more I terested in unity and global affairs then fearing each other apart, but leaving room for player characters to still harbour grudges and kill each other outside the sanctuary zones and cities.

This works. Truth is they can do so many things, they just have to choose

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But what two Alliance cities would go neutral to balance that?

You wouldnt do that. The alliance needs gains, especially in the elven department, it's the horde that's over populated, this is one of the reasons why you are allowing the alliance elves to be able to have a home in their own cities and switching them to neutral.

You are not signing them over to the alliance completely because of the horde elf fans, but you want the alliance elves to be more attractive and away a small portion of hirde players over.

To this effect, you make no alliance city neutral, Silvermoon going horde, Sura,ar going horde, Dalaran going neutral and Lordaeron going horde were all alliance races' cities..

What you need is horde race cities to make up the loss.

Zul'Aman and Zul'drak as well as Zul'Farak go horde.

We all know in a neutral situation, the alliance will dominate the horde amongst the elves horde support and mentality is very much a minority to elves. While neuuptral, it will feel very alliancey. Bith Suramar and Silvermoon both feel very alliancey even though they are on the horde.

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Maybe Blizzard shouldn't have made them hideous abominations. They should have just copy-pasted the Night Elves as their model. Then done the same for the Alliance(with the BE model) so they could have their High Elves.

Maye blizzard should improve the night elves to look more attractive, so alliance members would be more focused on them than coveting high elves, and this problem would not be as large for hordies as it is today.

The problem is that hordies have loved having an alliance race that was designed as prettier and nicer than anything the alliance had, and enjoyed taking the kaldorei civilization city of Suramar too, with their rival elves deprived of it.. they've loved the sense of superiority it's given them, afterall, they desire to be better than their enemies in every way, and enjoy that this is the case with the elves.

This is why they are very reluctant and very unsupportive about the alliance races returning home to the alliance and being a thing there even though they are well aware both the night elves and high elves are an alliance thing, as is their Silvermoon and Suramar cities which are core to the heart and story of both the high elves and the night elves, yet are on the horde instead.. it makes them feel satisfied to see alliance tears.

This has nothing to do with what makes sense or good for the game, or right, it's all about satisfying those egos, and bragging rights - it's all pride and vanity. it's ruined the status quo. It's obvious to see it's better for both balance and the game that the alliance elves regain their losses and rise to prominence, as well as have their models properly improved and fixed. It will improve

[BaumanKing]

People in this thread need to understand the thought process of a professional writer:

- Alleria wants to reclaim Silvermoon.
- Umbric wants to reclaim Silvermoon.
- Vereesa wants to reclaim Silvermoon.
- Many in Silvermoon want to rejoin the Alliance.
- The Void Lords want Alleria to reclaim Silvermoon.
- Turalyon wants to reclaim former Alliance holdings, like they did with Stromgarde in BfA.

In “A Moment in Verse” there is also a line about Lor'themar having nightmares of the Sunwell being polluted by the Void after he allowed Alleria near it.

The alliance needs gains

According to "Exploring Azeroth" the Alliance got Arathi, Darkshore, Southshore and Lordamere Lake with Fenris Isle. The Horde got nothing after the Fourth War. There is only a small hint of the future restoration of Lordaeron, but that's it. So no, Silvermoon belongs to the Horde, and void elves should built their own city in space or join the Silver Covenant in Dalaran.

[Rhlor]

I would really love it.



Just stop. You're the first discussing about Blood elves in this thread. Nightborne and Nightelves are somewhat linked to the High elves so why not.

high elves of the horde who are the ones with blue eyes