Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ardenaso]

He was also mind controlled by dreadlord, as was later discovered by Sylvanas. He was always described as racist bastard, but I would not be surprised if his decision to execute Kael and his people was made under dreadlords influence... but I really doubt Sylvanas would share this information with blood elves. She most likely kept it secret from them.

but IMO I don't want it to be "Garithos was already under Detheroc's spell when he executed Kael" that would greatly cheapen the plot and I think it would be whitewashed greatly

[Tanaria]

He was also mind controlled by dreadlord, as was later discovered by Sylvanas. He was always described as racist bastard, but I would not be surprised if his decision to execute Kael and his people was made under dreadlords influence... but I really doubt Sylvanas would share this information with blood elves. She most likely kept it secret from them.

That isn't part of the common lore.
If anything, it might suggest that Garithos sent Jennalla to a particular station to rid himself of her. Remember, his goal was to retake Lordaeron, but it would be by the hands of Humans (and Dwarves, but they weren't highly regarded either.)

When Kael escaped with Vashj, Garithos was furious, but returned his sights to Lordaeron. It was then, he was corrupted and possessed by the Dreadlords.

Garithos hated the Elves because he blamed them for the loss of his family.

Plus, Garithos wasn't the reason why the Blood Elves joined the Horde. The Blood Elves of Quel'Thalas had tried various times to seek out the Alliance and request aid. It never happened. The first taste of aid came from the hand of Sylvanas and the Forsaken. It was then, the Alliance did send a force to Quel'Thalas...but it wasn't to help, it was to spy and attack the Blood Elves, on-sight. Those Night Elves shouldn't have been there. They were a hindrance to Quel'Thalas' time of desperate need.

[Vaedan]

That isn't part of the common lore.
If anything, it might suggest that Garithos sent Jennalla to a particular station to rid himself of her. Remember, his goal was to retake Lordaeron, but it would be by the hands of Humans (and Dwarves, but they weren't highly regarded either.)

When Kael escaped with Vashj, Garithos was furious, but returned his sights to Lordaeron. It was then, he was corrupted and possessed by the Dreadlords.

Garithos hated the Elves because he blamed them for the loss of his family.

Plus, Garithos wasn't the reason why the Blood Elves joined the Horde. The Blood Elves of Quel'Thalas had tried various times to seek out the Alliance and request aid. It never happened. The first taste of aid came from the hand of Sylvanas and the Forsaken. It was then, the Alliance did send a force to Quel'Thalas...but it wasn't to help, it was to spy and attack the Blood Elves, on-sight. Those Night Elves shouldn't have been there. They were a hindrance to Quel'Thalas' time of desperate need.

Make no mistake, I don't believe Garithos would be good on elves at any time. He was racist, not just towards elves, he treated dwarves as trash as well, but he had special hatred towards elves. My point was if the execution (a rather extreme measure) was influenced by Dreadlord. Well, likely not... but we don't really know when exactly he become under influence of the dreadlord, so the possibility is here.

I know Garithos was not the reason - I even said so in a post before that, no need to repeat the reasons of blood elves joining the Horde for 100th time. Everybody knows that. I agree night elves had nothing to do in Quel'thalas in that time and were dealt with accordingly, yet we still don't really know what they were up to and who sent them here. It seemed they wanted to spy on blood elves, perhaps draenei told them of their involvement in sabotaging Exodar and their actions in Azuremyst/Bloodmyst? I guess night elves were suspecting blood elves to be up to no good and decided to construct scrying stones to spy on them. It is just weird they out of sudden decided to act hostile towards them, while few years ago they were all friendly and helpful. The lore regarding relations of kaldorei and sin'dorei is actually quite inconsistent, but I guess it is the price of paving the path of sin'dorei to the Horde.

[Beloren]

Well, while I agree with you that his claims that Horde elves should be merged into the Alliance are extreme and will never happen (and it is not even necessary), I can't take you seriously on most matter either. You accuse him of bias (rightfully so), painting it as such a bad thing, yet you are also heavily biased and you even proudly display your bias. It is not bad to have favorites, everybody does... but don't be a hypocrite and don't blame others from what you are doing yourself.



I'm not sure if you are just trying to provoke Ravenmoon by intentional cherrypicking, or if you are failing the lore yourself too. You know, highlighting only certain parts of the story without larger context can be used on the Horde too.

Blood elves are so weak race. They can't even reclaim their homeland, which is still scourge infested as seen in Three Sisters, so pretty loooooong after Lich King was defeated and Scourge severly weakened. During Amani crisis, they were so weak they had to invite other weaklings to help them.

Nightborne are such a weak race. We raided them and crushed them to dust even when they were empowered by Nightwell. They can't even stand on their own without the help from the Horde. What a failure.

See? Your horde elves are pretty much the same weakling as you claim alliance elves to be.



Ravenmoon have a point that aesteticaly, they are actually closer to the Alliance. Horde elves break Horde's aestetic integrity by bringing high culture to the faction defined mostly by their tribal themes and more rugged assets. It can be good or bad thing, it just depends on your point of view. I actually don't really like it, so most of my Horde characters are not elves, since I don't really feel I fit in the faction. I will not deny others may feel different about it, and it is ok.

Well, for gameplay reasons, they will certainly remain Horde. For lore reasons, blood elves have no solid reason to stick with the Horde anymore. Given their history of leaving factions the minute they outlived their need for them, I wonder what special Horde has to offer to the Quel'thalas. Thalassians always put their nation above all others. We have not seen any real contribution from the Horde to well-being of Quel'thalas since... TBC? Even then, it was mostly provided by Sylvanas and the Forsaken. On the other hand, Horde dragged blood elves into numerous conflicts, resulting in further loses on sin'dorei population, yet they did not bother even send reinforcements to Ghostlands in times of Amani Crisis, or did not help blood elves reclaim Ghostlands. So I'm actually pretty interested what make your elf characters so happy about the Horde?

It seems to me that the best thing blood elves could do is to officialy leave Horde and remain neutral (which means not joining the Alliance), invite all high elves back to Quel'thalas to let them help their nation and gave them opportunity to deal with problems in their homeland, after decades they were contributing to either Alliance or Horde efforts... but as I said, gameplay reasons make this impossible.

Gameplay doesn’t make this impossible at all.

Quel’thalas could still go neutral, remember that they don’t need the entire nation to be in the horde to be playable.

All you need is for some of those elves to declare they are still loyal to the horde and insist the player blood elf is one such.

His kingdom can be neutral with some individuals choosing the alliance as high elves or void elves and others choosing the horde as blood elves while the nation itself is neutral.

Exactly the same with Suramar. Most of the Nightborne could become neutral including state. Hell the Arcan’dor could even return most to their night elf appearance healing the distortion of the nightwell and a few who remain Nightborne in appearance choose to be horde loyal. One such is the player character.

Gameplay is unaffected by this. Gameplay only needs horde players to continue to be able to play as blood elves or Nightborne, truth is it doesn’t require all blood elves and all Nightborne to be aligned to the horde or alliance.

[Vaedan]

Gameplay doesn’t make this impossible at all.

Quel’thalas could still go neutral, remember that they don’t need the entire nation to be in the horde to be playable.

All you need is for some of those elves to declare they are still loyal to the horde and insist the player blood elf is one such.

His kingdom can be neutral with some individuals choosing the alliance as high elves or void elves and others choosing the horde as blood elves while the nation itself is neutral.

Exactly the same with Suramar. Most of the Nightborne could become neutral including state. Hell the Arcan’dor could even return most to their night elf appearance healing the distortion of the nightwell and a few who remain Nightborne in appearance choose to be horde loyal. One such is the player character.

Gameplay is unaffected by this. Gameplay only needs horde players to continue to be able to play as blood elves or Nightborne, truth is it doesn’t require all blood elves and all Nightborne to be aligned to the horde or alliance.

You are right, it is not entirely impossible, but I don't find it really likely, even though I would welcome something similar. I can imagine some Horde players feeling bad about one of their capitals becoming neutral... on the other hand, capital cities other than Stormwind and Orgrimmar serve little purpose nowadays and are mostly used for roleplay. It would not change player experience drastically.

[Tanaria]

Gameplay doesn’t make this impossible at all.

Quel’thalas could still go neutral, remember that they don’t need the entire nation to be in the horde to be playable.

All you need is for some of those elves to declare they are still loyal to the horde and insist the player blood elf is one such.

His kingdom can be neutral with some individuals choosing the alliance as high elves or void elves and others choosing the horde as blood elves while the nation itself is neutral.

Exactly the same with Suramar. Most of the Nightborne could become neutral including state. Hell the Arcan’dor could even return most to their night elf appearance healing the distortion of the nightwell and a few who remain Nightborne in appearance choose to be horde loyal. One such is the player character.

Gameplay is unaffected by this. Gameplay only needs horde players to continue to be able to play as blood elves or Nightborne, truth is it doesn’t require all blood elves and all Nightborne to be aligned to the horde or alliance.

Or Suramar and Silvermoon stay and remain as Horde cities.

Also, the Arcan'dor doesn't and never has changed the Nightborne to Night Elves.
The Nightborne injested a titan artifact...the Eye of Aman'thul - the power of that is far greater than what a mortal druid and mage could conjure.

Nightfallen are restored to Nightborne, thanks to the Arcan'dor. We have no evidence to suggest that Nightborne are transformed to Night Elves.

[Beloren]

Or Suramar and Silvermoon stay and remain as Horde cities.

That's not essential for gameplay purposes anymore than Teldrassil and Darnassus need to be around for gameplay purposes, they do not.

Orgrimmar and Stormwind don't need to be around either for gameplay purposes, nor do all humans need to be part of the alliance (which they aren't) for gameplay purposes.

Gameplay only requires that the races already playable continue to be playable on their faction, that's all, that only requires some individuals, it doesn't require every person of that race, or every faction, group etc, nor does it require captical cities and territory.

Darksepear trolls are only one tribe of jungle trolls not all jungle trolls. Blizzard has done this from the start.

Also, the Arcan'dor doesn't and never has changed the Nightborne to Night Elves.
The Nightborne injested a titan artifact...the Eye of Aman'thul - the power of that is far greater than what a mortal druid and mage could conjure.

Nightfallen are restored to Nightborne, thanks to the Arcan'dor. We have no evidence to suggest that Nightborne are transformed to Night Elves.

I wasn't saying it has, I was agreeing that it could, and it's not anymore far fetched than any of the story of the nightfallen.

But you are not incorrect that so far the Arcan'dor has not changed the Nightborne to Night elves, that doesn't mean it cannot or will not.

Stating the facts is all very well and good, but it's not like I declared this to have happened, - unless you don't understand what the word "could" means and are incapable of understanding context. While your dedication to fact is appreciated, why does your response make it seem like I am suggesting the Arcan'dor has done that?

Look, I'll interject with you and your friend right here, I'm neither for or against any of you or Ravenmoon's arguments, preferences or prejudices, stating something is likely or possible, shouldn't warrant quoting obvious facts we are all aware of. May I ask why you do it when it is unwarranted? It feels more honest to admit anything is possible, but that you'd prefer it not to happen. If I didn't know better I'd say you are passively aggressively responding to suggestions you don't like, quoting facts that aren't warranted .. it's like responding to a person who says "hell for all we know, we could travel to the stars" with "there has been no instance in history where we have been able to travel to the stars" almost as if to imply a suggestion or imagined possibility isn't possible - it's un-necessary, I want to know why you do this. Ofc my assertion could be entirely wrong too, so I ask you to explain, if you'd care to.

Do not perceive this as an attack, I am merely curious, and perhaps wonder if you have noticed this, perhaps you can explain.

[FlubberPuddy]

I assume Classic will have a major rework, remaster, and re-overhaul?

No, the whole point of the "Classic" editions of WoW are to restore to what it was at the time it was made. Like a museum piece. I wouldn't expect any overhauls or reworks/remasters.

[Beloren]

You are right, it is not entirely impossible, but I don't find it really likely, even though I would welcome something similar. I can imagine some Horde players feeling bad about one of their capitals becoming neutral... on the other hand, capital cities other than Stormwind and Orgrimmar serve little purpose nowadays and are mostly used for roleplay. It would not change player experience drastically.

Yeh. The story should allow extreme situations to happen. In SWTOR the Empire is destroyed and the Republic conquered at one point.

That’s story. Do drastic things if you must, just make em good.

Besides the harder the fall the more incredible the rise can be

[FlubberPuddy]

They only started fixing it in legion so thats not very long ago.. and like every blizzcon before that had people asking about illidan. Its about time i would say.

I mentioned it exactly for those reasons.

They started it internally much earlier, just us public got to see the fixes finally during legion. But they came out years earlier essentially saying that they know their TBC lore of the major characters was trash (thus would try to fix it later which we saw during Legion). I recall even Metzen saying at the 2010 Blizzcon that they were having a book done on Kael'thas.

Looks like potentially it got cancelled, and we're just seeing what they were gonna do with Kael within Shadowlands instead.

[delus]

Gameplay doesn’t make this impossible at all.

Quel’thalas could still go neutral, remember that they don’t need the entire nation to be in the horde to be playable.

All you need is for some of those elves to declare they are still loyal to the horde and insist the player blood elf is one such.

His kingdom can be neutral with some individuals choosing the alliance as high elves or void elves and others choosing the horde as blood elves while the nation itself is neutral.

Exactly the same with Suramar. Most of the Nightborne could become neutral including state. Hell the Arcan’dor could even return most to their night elf appearance healing the distortion of the nightwell and a few who remain Nightborne in appearance choose to be horde loyal. One such is the player character.

Gameplay is unaffected by this. Gameplay only needs horde players to continue to be able to play as blood elves or Nightborne, truth is it doesn’t require all blood elves and all Nightborne to be aligned to the horde or alliance.

This should happen so that the rift between blood elves and void elves widens.

[Beloren]

This should happen so that the rift between blood elves and void elves widens.

Don’t get me wrong. I would personally prefer Silvermoon and Suramar to stay horde.

I’m just merely stating the other options are not implausible at all, nor are they far fetched and could even make for great story telling.

But I’d rather it not happen, and would rather they stay as is. If alliance need to get better elves blizzard should create new places for them, Night elves, even with Highborne have moved on long from Suramar, should build a new capital. The descriptions of Zin’Azshari fit both the colour scheme, aesthetic and combine city scape with nature well enough to suffice and match the alliance very well as seen in the Warbringers.

They should just leave the Nightborne alone and develop them as a night elf sub race apart from the Kaldorei and on the horde.

Same with Silvermoon, it should continue with the blood elves and be updated. Void elves and high elves should get a new home npersonally I feel Dalaran should be the defacto high elf home and the void elves should get an appropriate visually themed city.

If blizzard are smart it could have two versions, one in the normal realm that is high elf looking and one in the void realm that has alterations to both colour and minor features to look voidy.

Give them a plot or area somewhere and bingo new home.

[Traveler Voltin]

Certain posters in here are why some of the horde players want to just crush the alliance into dust.

[Edward Wu]

Certain posters in here are why some of the horde players want to just crush the alliance into dust.

I think you may need to step away from the computer for a bit and take a break.

[Traveler Voltin]

I think you may need to step away from the computer for a bit and take a break.

i am not the one here demanding blizzard give horde things to the alliance.

[Edward Wu]

i am not the one here demanding blizzard give horde things to the alliance.

High Elves aren't Horde. They've been Alliance since the IP's inception lol.

[Traveler Voltin]

High Elves aren't Horde. They've been Alliance since the IP's inception lol.

i wasnt talking about high elves. try again

[ravenmoon]

@Rhlor I've felt many things over the years, but I've come to the conclusion that in the end, the blood elves on the horde and the Nightborne on the horde are bad ideas, and have not helped.

I never thought they were the best way, but I also realised that they could have some advantage for the two factions that could be interesting and different... but in time, I feel the damage has been a lot worse for allowing this, and the product could have been a lot better with elves on the alliance only.

It's not the only problem, i think in their effort to raise the profile of the horde, they completely overshot, they didn't write a good and balanced story in ways that didn't make the alliance look naff, and continued it for too long, like they forgot what they were about.

I think the elves on the horde did that, and they grew to love their own creation and couldn't see how it messed it up, but they will see this. as long as they insist on two factions of the horde and alliance only, and as long as they want to preserve strong faction identities true to the original, elves prominent or glorified on the horde will undermine and destroy those effort.

- - - Updated - - -

That said, I do realise it cannot be undone, but the next best thing would be to discontinue progressing, promoting and glorifying the elves on the horde, and instead do that on the alliance mainly and chiefly. Alliance elves should be a lot more attractive and powerful/complete/wholesome on the alliance, in a way the horde ones only get a small part of that pie.

Horde focus should be predominantly focused on the horde core races, and the things that are greatest on the horde should not be pretty elven cities and kingdoms, but Troll and Orc ones, Tauren and Goblin ones.

The elves can have parts to play on the horde (they remian playable afterall), but they should small and specialised ones, they can be pivotal, but they shouldn't be grand, and should be more inconspicuous, behind the scenes, more implied than shown etc, pretty much how they've been conducting the alliance elves. And for horde elf fans like you horrified by the prospect, well, alliance fans have had to endure this for most of warcraft, you won't get pity from them, and you won't get pity from the core horde fans either.

This ish ow I currently feel.

[Traveler Voltin]

high elves left the alliance after WC2.
Suramar is was never alliance and they left the night elves when they shielded themselves away.

[OwenBurton]

But do not the ren'dorei have quel'dorei traits anyway? According to the latest patch expansion? So what differences does it make? The void elves' racials are probably superior to high elven ones anyway, even if they were introduced eventually.