Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Mace]

ofc there are, I'm not delusional, as I recognise there are. This is just the best, most efficient and most effective way for all the reasons I've been harping on about in the last 7 pages. Guys like you balk at this cos you don't wanna lose that stuff from the horde - I'm not saying your feelings aren't legit, they are, and you have a right to feel them, doesn't stop that outcome being the best. and losing Silvermoon and Suramar is not the end of the world either, who knows it might actually be a better development for the both the horde and the remnant group in so many ways.

@General Zanjin :


Bottom Line:
1. Elves don't fit on the horde. At least not the original Wc1 - classic wow horde. It's not to say that they can't, they can, they just don't fit very well and shouldn't be made to if you want to preserve or enhance that clear dividing line and retain that original authenticity of the factions. Do you understand this?

2. Blizzard will do whatever they want, just know that blood elves and night elves gloriously exhibiting the fullness of the best of the alliance races isn't good for the factions and the core theme the game is built on and that they profess to want to endure and remain the heart of the factions. Elves in the state they are on the horde, is undermining this completely. Do you understand this?

3. Horde elves in their current state, won't help alliance regain the popularity and attract the players it needs. Make the elves greater and established on the alliance and you'll solve this. They can do this by
a) Just building up the alliance elves more, with great new capitals and zones that eclipse what the horde has leaving the horde elves intact.
b) Taking the Thalassian and Night elf assets form the horde, replacing what the horde lose with Troll, orc, tauren and goblin assets, and fixing it on the alliance
c) Let the elf assets become a neutral thing with access to both elves on both factions, building and writing elves mainly on the alliance hence forth.

of these 3 choices (b) is the best. Choice (a) involves a lot more work and doesn't solve the alliance bastardization of the horde. There is such a thing as too much elves if they're so prevalent on both factions. Choice (c) I don't think will shift enough player flow to the alliance, you really want more of those horde elf hardcore fans coming back, and I think the elves on the horde are still too prevalent with this option though not so much as in option (a). Option b) is the most effective and efficient route.

Never forget, for I do not, that they can do what they want, but make no mistake, those elves like they are right now on the horde, are alliance's best on the horde - and no matter how much you may like that, especially the bragging rights and superiority complex you get from it, it's not good for the integrity of the factions and just wrong for the faction theme. Do you understand this?

Their choices are simple:
1. Change and redefine the horde, to something new different. this has already happened in part - and the current state is not good, the horde doesn't feel cohesive and feels like it can't be any one thing clear or defined, certainly not what it once was. So it's opting for the multicultural plethora, which more fits a neutral city than a faction. It's not working. So the option are a) to take it somewhere totally different than what it's ever been or b) change the elves on it to fit the other horde races or c) change the orcs/tauren/trolls and all the others to fit a new norm that the elves can play a vibrant part of

It feels so false though, like you're bending over backwards and changing everything..just to keep the elves on the horde and make them relevant or fit, something that's not even necessary - and begs the question is it worth it? Just for feel good factor and bragging rights (as Ravenmoon puts it) from the horde elf fanbase? For a race that's not really horde and was only there to fill numbers, it's succeeded in that task, therefore no longer needs it's prominence and the cherry top assets of the alliance padding and inflating it and ultimately feeding further imbalance and distortion.

2. Re-enforce the horde, restore it back to it's original vision. Clear distinct different entities in the horde and alliance. Different collectives who's differences are great enough to always make complete reconciliation impossible. As it stands in the current farcical place it is, the horde and alliance are so similar, any amount of war seems pointless, why are they fighting.. they share so much in common, the very conflict they feel is the heart of the franchise they've undermined by the dilution of the horde with alliance races which in turn has weakened the alliance - when the best of it is instead on the enemy faction. Do you understand this?

Blood elves joining the horde is interesting story for a short period, but as permanent fixture? It's bad.

Blizzard have been harping on about the core of Warcraft is the horde and the alliance, going back to the essence and heart of the RTS and the earlier works, yet they're the very ones that have undermined this and now at a point they actually don't need this state of affairs, aren't reversing it, but instead make it worse adding the Nightborne and the best of the alliance civilizations on their enemies - it's messed up, great for horde elf fans, but horrible for everyone else, alliance and hardcore horde native fans.

The franchise badly needs that core simplicity and clear recognition not just in aesthetics but in theme and meaning of what horde is and alliance is, it will never be achieved with the horde elves so prominent. They need to take a back seat and be significantly reduced

3. Now the horde feels half like the alliance. The alliance still feels like the alliance but deprived of half it's heart, the core of the elves, still on the horde.. it's shit for the alliance. No matter which way you look at it. We all know that, it's absolutely shite. It's not rocket science to see what needs to be done. Do you understand this? i.e. what NEEDS to be done, not what's comfortable and acceptable for the horde elf fans.

They've basically given the best of the rivals to their canonical enemies. i.e. The best portions of the alliance to the horde in Silvermoon and Suramar - the high elf and night elf civilizations - meanwhile the actual high elves and night elves are homeless, refugees, with ruins, remnant while this very alliance group thrives on the horde.

Off course alliance fans aren't going to be okay with this. It's not going to sit right with them, and they'll continuously be asking as topics like this one shows. Because the way elves were written into the Wow is so tied into the fabric and core of the alliance. You'd have to completely change the alliance and/or completely change the elves on the horde in which case what we have in Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar cease to be what they were originally were, the things that made them so popular and desirable and established in the heart of the fans, especially alliance fans.. all this to box fit them into the horde? Really? Sure the buildings might stay the same, like in any occupation, but it's no longer those kingdoms, those desirable kingdoms that inspired many alliance fans - which begs the question why? why do that? Just to keep elves on the horde? I entirely agree that they should et them keep their models, those elven races on the horde themselves don't need to be significant, if you want to restore the heart of your factions and the core ethos of the game that is in the factions. Do new things for the horde instead, I would say it's better for everyone to now build original horde ones, whether building existing horde races like they did with the Zandalari or introducing new ones.

Raven's suggestions might work, I have another, introduce newer more exciting races to the horde, and while the alliance gets new races too, they're not exciting, the true excitement is in the resurgence and return of both the kaldorei and Thalassian civilizations.

[Traveler Voltin]

oh god there is another one.

[Mace]

I'm brutally honest. Start getting excited about fan fiction that will never happen and you set yourself up for disappointment.
Quel'Thalas will not become a Thalassian Utopia. Too much bad blood has already happened. It's the city where the majority of the surviving populace live...the majority being, the Blood Elves.

Tanaria, a word of warning to you, your faith in your words is incredible, but greatly misplaced. You are setting yourself up for a fall if you emotionally invest too much in trying to keep the status quo you love so much. Everything changes, be careful. Step away a little, you'd save yourself un-necessary disappointment when things shift in ways you don't like... and one thing I've known about this life, is that they will , you can count on it - there will be highs and there will be lows.

- - - Updated - - -

oh god there is another one.

That one is for YOUR benefit. I highly recommend you read it carefully and consider everything said. I'll edit in some bolds to help highlight the most important points that are absolutely essential

[Traveler Voltin]

Silvermoon and the high elves were part of the alliance for 1 war then left. a minority does not represent the majority.
Silvermoon is horde now until WoW dies.

Suramar has not been part of the night elfs for 10,000 years.

Nightborne and Blood elves are horde themed. the people against this are delusional people who think all pretty races must be alliance and "good".

[ravenmoon]

@ravenmoon the Alliance finally gets to play their elf fantasy, I want to play the chaos human or bandit fantasy while allied with beasts. The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race, the Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return

it's not really "homogenizing the Horde" given they aren't as elegant as the Blood Elves and Highborne and they aren't lawful boring like Alliance Humans;

Point is they're alliance and humans, with alilance cultures.

They'd have to change and become more horde like in attitude and activity to prevent homogenisation. Now they could temporarily join the horde, like in WC2, that's good story telling, but they cannot remain there as they are, they must either be destroyed, return to the alliance or be completely changed form what they once were.

And such is the how the horde elves also need to go. My option is that they largely return to the alliance. But blizzard could massacre them like they did the Night elves and the High elves. Furthermore the remnant that remains could then be completely changed to if the horde, and grow, but if they are to remain those fancy alliancey elves on the horde as blood elves and Nightborne, in that state they must be tiny and never overshadow or outshine the core horde races.

it's just astounding how fixated with horde elves some of these horde elf fanbois are on here, that they have on care or desire for the integrity of the horde, and would be okay with keeping this broken state just to keep the fancy stuff on their current main's faction for bragging rights and the pleasure of sticking it to alliance fans. But then that's the very contentious attitude blizzard has tried to cultivate between it's fans. shame intelligent people are allowing themselves to be blinded, unable to see what is so clearly in front of them. Because they have invested a lot of emotional energy in a state they never should have been comfortable or settled with because it was always alien/foreign to the horde and clearly from the alliance. For people who hate the alliance so much, they certainly love the very alliance nature of the blood elves and Nightborne. And they don't realise their emotions on this are irrational - they shouldn't be hating me for pointing this out nor getting worked up.

[elbleuet]

you refuse to listen like Ravenmoon. Silvermoon and most of the high elf population left the alliance after WC2. a few "token" elves staying behind does not make it them an alliance race.

Actually it does.

A race fighting for the Alliance since the very beginning of Warcraft is an Alliance race.

Numbers are don't matter. See the void elves.
Having a capital city doesn't matter either. See the worgens. A race without a capital of their own.

[ravenmoon]

Nightborne and Blood elves are horde themed. the people against this are delusional people who think all pretty races must be alliance and "good".

there you go again, thinking this is about being pretty. Name me characteristics, attributes and nature of the blood elves and Nightborne that is horde themed?

Nobility
High Civilisation
Arcane magic
Religion
Culture
Character

These are all alliance characteristics that the elves and humans are the epitomy of. There is nothing "horde" about them. They are basically alliance on the horde.

[elbleuet]

Silvermoon is horde now until WoW dies.

Just like Lordaeron I suppose ?

[ravenmoon]

Actually it does.

A race fighting for the Alliance since the very beginning of Warcraft is an Alliance race.

Numbers are don't matter. See the void elves.
Having a capital city don't matter either. See the worgens. A race without a capital of their own.

I know right, it's like he doesn't notice the homeless night elves, void elves and high elves (core alliance races), as well as Worgen, gnomes and Pandas (i.e. most of the alliance) that's refugeed at this point but somehow still part of the alliance, but all of a sudden he can't see that homeless and very small numbers of blood elves and Nightborne can still be horde.

He's okay with accepting Night elves without a city and being a remnant near extinct race, same with high elves and void elves, gnomes too - but no, all of a sudden it fails to qualify as a race if i'ts on the horde.

[Traveler Voltin]

Just like Lordaeron I suppose ?

its still in horde hands.

[Varodoc]

Well... we've already seen all races in service of the Void - humans, night elves, tauren, orcs, undead, murlocs, ogres,... so void elves are no exception. They have one big advantage over other races - they are trained how to resist whispers, so they have better chances to not fall to the madness then other races who meddle with the Void.

There is also another big difference - void elves do not worship Void or any entity connected to that. They use it as a tool, they earned these powers themselves, they were not "gifted" them by some another being, which they are then obliged to serve. Other void users got their powers from the Old Gods, whom they are obliged to serve.

Humans, night elves, tauren, orcs, undead, murlocs, ogres... they are all just children playing at a game. Alleria Windrunner is the first mortal to successfully defy the shadows' whispers, and the Ren'dorei are her students. She is on a completely different level than these lowly mongrel races. She's in a tier of her own. Many have tried to bend the Void before her, but because they were weak, they all failed.

She who was once a mere ranger, has now merged with two Void demi-gods and ascended to a higher state of existence:



Humans, night elves, tauren, orcs, undead, murlocs, ogres... how many of them have accomplished that? They have no right nor ground to judge her.

[Rhlor]

And a man's allowed to change his mind, i was a big advocate of elven unification, then elven conflict, and then back again, - I've just concluded actually the main problem is Elves on the horde. It's not working, it doesn't fit, and I don't think blizzard should be destroying their original horde just to make them work or stay there - not when the horde now only needs the models not the elf promotion and proliferation, glorification and assets on it. That's just bragging rights stuff that the alliance should be getting for an alliance race and encouraging/enticing players to switch to alliance and get passionately into playing them again. They know full well these elves matter more to alliance players than all it's races, they counted on that fact when they made the blood elves horde to lure a lot of these players over.

Now the horde no longer needs brighter alliance assets on it, it just needs the models to stay on, the shiny elves are actually ruining the vibe and integrity of the horde as it is making it too alliancey and simultaneously dulling and depriving the alliance - by making the best aspects of it horde. I know hordies have enjoyed the irony a lot, but it's time to end it. And have delighted in the torment it's caused alliance. You've had your kick for 14 years now, it's enough. It's at the heart of what's wrong with the whole faction set up. Alliance needs those elves, horde needs them gone - the solution really is straightforward, it would neither end Belves and Nightborne from being playable, nor will it end Warcraft, but rather it would heal the biggest problems with the factions. I see that now, which is why I'm no longer promoting swapping or conflict or unification, this is the problem right here: The Thalassian and Kaldorei civilizations and the majority of the elves should not be on the horde. Elves on the horde should be a minor thing, they should be big and established on the alliance.


Do not presume to know what I'd pick. I'll tell you plainly, I'd have Suramar it's own night elven kingdom, both factions would have access to it, but the Nightborne would predominantly be interacting and involved with the alliance races, and them and the kaldorei would be working things out in a long term story development arc concerning elves.

The night elves would have Kalimdor north and western portions where they'll continue to grow and develop in their own separate nation - I'd rather they not be alliance but neutral, but in the case where they have to be, they'd be alliance ofc.

There would be no exchange with Silvermoon, because Silvermoon would be high elven and with the alliance. New roles and places would be written for the void elves too, likely taking charge of Ghostlands and building a twin city there with a new future for the Thalassian people. blood elves, the remnant who chose to remain so and loyal to the horde would settle in Azshara and in time grow towns and cities there. I'd probably have the goblin city bombed, and restore Kezan and Undermine as two new goblin strongholds, allowing the blood elves to take over. the horde loyal Nightborne would be bound to the hip with them, their destiny tied and linked to them because that's exactly what the horde fans who want them want and care about. They don't care about anything deep about the Nightborne, just that the Nightborne stay as arm candy to the blood elves, and so that's exactly what the remnant Nightborne would be.. portal and chrono highly specialised experts.

There will be no exchange here. What the horde get for losing Quel'thalas/Silvermoon and Suramar are more Troll, Orc, Goblin and Tauren stuff. In comes Zul'drak, Zul'aman (for conflict with alliance controlled Quel'thalas), Zul'farak (redesigned). Undermine city, Kezan city. Gromash city (for Mag'har orcs in Northrend). And Icecrown Citadel and Dark Theramore for the forsaken.

Horde will lose Suramar, Quel'thalas (incl Silvermoon), lose Feralas and Desolace. Stonetalon, Moonglade, Hyjal are druid territories. In stonetalon, elves and tauren leave peacefully learning druidic ways - both groups protect it so that what happened under Garrosh never does

I'm thinking that everything you write is a joke because it sounds like a joke.
and you talk about bragging? The person who laughed and made fun of the horde players because in the exchange the alliance got the most played model of the horde? You bragged that the alliance got what it wanted and the horde got something it didn't ask for? And now that the alliance has what they asked for so much, you don't feel satisfied and want to steal our content. It's hard to believe that this is not a joke.

You know well that most of the horde players are elves and what you want is to directly attack the content of the majority of the horde player base. do you really think this is reasonable or possible? Mythics pro players are a small minority in the total population of the game and as long as the horde has better racials than the alliance those players will not return because they care more about the racial troll! all of us who play wow know this!
the only thing you want is to be able to feel better yourself! you don't like horde players having things you want! and I remember very well how you acted haughty and mocking when the alliance got void elves. you just want to laugh and taunt horde players like you did at the time.
everything you propose is ridiculous. I heard some radical-minded alliance players who even wish to expel the entire horde from Azeroth but even in those cases they proposed that the blood elves have tempest keep as their new capital.
you have gone one step further! I never believed that there is actually talk of something like this of wanting to ruin the content of the majority of the player base of the other faction without giving anything in return for them.

[Vaedan]

its still in horde hands.

Only if you talk to Zidormi to take you to the past. The present Lordaeron is blighted and uninhabitable, thanks to Horde.

[Rhlor]

Just like Lordaeron I suppose ?

Yes, since the forsaken are returning and plan to rebuild the city according to what is written in the shadow rising

[Traveler Voltin]

Yes, since the forsaken are returning and plan to rebuild the city according to what is written in the shadow rising

i am curious how they plan to clean the blight up

[Rhlor]

i am curious how they plan to clean the blight up

according to exploring the eastern kingdoms. it is eliminated naturally with the passage of time, remember that the druids could clean the plague.

[elbleuet]

Yes, since the forsaken are returning and plan to rebuild the city according to what is written in the shadow rising

"Plan to rebuild"

Thanks for the laugh.

In Shadow Rising, I don't think there was a Lordaeron noble - wishing to take back former Alliance holdings - who sat on the Alliance throne back to that moment.

If you think Turalyon will let it happen just because you want him to do so, then you're fooling yourself.

The Horde no longer has any major power in the Eastern Kingdoms. You lost on all fronts. You even let an entire kingdom to be restored to its former glory.

[Rhlor]

"Plan to rebuild"

Thanks for the laugh.

In Shadow Rising, I don't think there was a Lordaeron noble - wishing to take back former Alliance holdings - who sat on the Alliance throne back to that moment.

If you think Turalyon will let it happen just because you want him to do so, then you're fooling yourself.

The Horde no longer has any major power in the Eastern Kingdoms. You lost on all fronts. You even let an entire kingdom to be restored to its former glory.

is what the book says. calia herself says that the home of the forsaken is lordaeron and that derek is the one in charge of the ships that bring the forsaken back to lordaeron. The horde lost power in the Eastern Kingdoms of this is undoubtedly made clear by exploring the eastern kingdoms where the alliance captures the south of Hillsbrad although it is still in ruins. but the Forsaken still control much of their original territory.

[Traveler Voltin]

"Plan to rebuild"

Thanks for the laugh.

In Shadow Rising, I don't think there was a Lordaeron noble - wishing to take back former Alliance holdings - who sat on the Alliance throne back to that moment.

If you think Turalyon will let it happen just because you want him to do so, then you're fooling yourself.

The Horde no longer has any major power in the Eastern Kingdoms. You lost on all fronts. You even let an entire kingdom to be restored to its former glory.

Horde still controls Hillbrad, Tiristal, and silverpine.

alliance only pushed them out of the Arathi highlands.

since when is Silvermoon not in the Eastern kingdoms?

[Ardenaso]

I hope the Argent Crusade won't allow the Alliance to claim Eastweald; Turalyon didn't do jack shit in cleansing Eastweald and Stratholme even though he had the Vindicaar and you're not gonna tell me he was in Stromgarde for like one canon year without stopping