Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Lastgope]

If they want to restore the purity of the identity of the factions, or go back tot he clear distinctions of a more traditional era, the elves have to greatly reduce on the horde or change to something else. They cannot retain the high elf and night elven civilization, they must gain something different and new, kinda like the naga did, that while elven, is clearly no longer high elven or kaldorei civilization or alliancey. But if they want to remain alliancey, they must lose their prominence and fade to the background while other horde core races become far more prominent and attractive. You do this by taking Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar away from them, back to the alliance, and raising up the profile and extravagance of trolls like Zul'drak, Zul'farak, orcs, with new stuff like maybe a Grommash city, Goblin Kezan and Undermine et c etc.

This sounds extremely awful honestly and I am glad Blizzard would never do this.

I like the blending of different cultures and hate when they try to make each Faction so cookie cutter.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

This thread really went to shit with the hardcore people claiming Elves "belong" to either faction huh.

[ravenmoon]

This sounds extremely awful honestly and I am glad Blizzard would never do this.

I like the blending of different cultures and hate when they try to make each Faction so cookie cutter.

YEh, that's what alliance fans felt when blood elves went horde, and it was repeated again when the Nightborne went horde - it could have been handled better imo.


some people like the mixed confusion that is the horde just so they can continue to have blood elves, but not realising that they will never lose blood elves, just the prominence and glorification of the high elves, which is the alliance.

There is a confusion here. You will never lose the beautiful models you enjoy playing, but you must lose the alliance kingdoms on the horde through the elves for a more traditional puritan horde faction that is distinct from the alliance. The breaking has already happened, and cannot be undone in wow, but it can be reshaped and tweaked.

However I am fully aware some people won't like this, no matter what you do, some people won't like it, they just have to decide what they want for the game, and what they believe to be best. I think their philosophy is distinctive factions, that's the whole fuss about not removing the faction restrictions or allowing cross faction play or players to choose any faction regardless of race, yet they have both the high elf kingdom and the night elf civilization sitting large as life on the horde - it's a contradiction.

But maybe they are happy with that compromise. I feel that they can do better and it would be better as I have outlined, - but none of my outlines involve stopping blood elves and Nightborne from being playable on the horde or losing the models you already have.

- - - Updated - - -

Zul-Troll places aren't Horde. They are enemies of the Horde.
Kezan got blown up with volcanos
Grommash City doesn't exist. It's called Warsong Hold

You're fascinating sometimes, do you bother to try to understand what you read, or just close your mind after the first statement you read that you don't like???? .. you answer a proposal with a fact.. incredible - the proposal is the elven territories that get lost be replaced with more troll/orc territories and assets,.. it won't be a replacement if they're already on the horde now would it.

[Traveler Voltin]

why continue to argue with the delusional ones who want to take horde cities?

[elbleuet]

why continue to argue with the delusional ones who want to take horde cities?

Like some Horde posters saying Void elves would never have fair skin options ? Or that Alleria would be Horde at heart when she'd eventually return ?

[Traveler Voltin]

Like some Horde posters saying Void elves would never have fair skin options ? Or that Alleria would be Horde at heart when she'd eventually return ?

I didnt really care about the skin color.
as for Alleria i thought she would be neutral.

[Imperator4321]

Yes ofc history, you don't have to be historically aligned with the alliance, although historically the high elves have aligned a lot more with the humans than the horde.

Historically, both the night elves, form the kaldorei civilization that started this all through to the high elves epitomise the best of what is represented and identified as alliance.

sure the faction itself is affiliation based, but it's given an identity and theme that the lves and humans, dwarves and gnomes all share and are based on. This has bene the case HISTORICALLY, from the kaldorei empire to present

The Kaldorei civilization has been the highest level of this type of thing
Followed by the Thalassian kingdom
Then Dalaran
Then the human kingdoms
The dwarves
The gnomes

Their theme, their magical affinity, their relations etc.. it's all alliance themed. and this is what I mean by history.

The upper echelons (the highborne) of the Kaldorei empire was marked by arrogance, hubris and utter devotion to azshara (a power hungry megalomaniac), the highborne nearly doomed azeroth by aligning with the Legion. the fact that the Kaldorei excised most of their highborne culture and exiled the surviving highborne from their society should tell you they do not look back on their ancient empire with any degree of fondness. the Nightborne were either so devoted to Elisande or too reliant on the Nightwell to lose it they willingly aligned themselves with the Burning Legion.

The Elves of Quel'thalas were smug, distant and aloof allies at best who only supported other nations for self serving reasons with a few exceptions who genuinely supported the alliance, when the power they had hoarded and relied on for centuries was taken they resorted to unsavory methods to survive and their leader almost doomed Azeroth to sate their addiction to power, it took nearly being destroyed by that for them to realize how far they had fallen.

you must have a really negative view of the alliance if you think that the Kaldorei empire (and suramar before the nighthold raid) or Quel'thalas are civilisations the Alliance embody or should seek to replicate, the fact that the Nightborne, Blood Elves and Highborne all nearly doomed Azeroth for similar reasons (addiction to arcane power, smug/arrogant sense of superiority, devotion to a singular figure) should tell you they were an incredibly flawed people who who's culture either destroyed them or had to change their ways in order to not be a active danger to Azeroth.

[ravenmoon]

The upper echelons (the highborne) of the Kaldorei empire was marked by arrogance, hubris and utter devotion to azshara (a power hungry megalomaniac), the highborne nearly doomed azeroth by aligning with the Legion. the fact that the Kaldorei excised most of their highborne culture and exiled the surviving highborne from their society should tell you they do not look back on their ancient empire with any degree of fondness. the Nightborne were either so devoted to Elisande or too reliant on the Nightwell to lose it they willingly aligned themselves with the Burning Legion.

The Elves of Quel'thalas were smug, distant and aloof allies at best who only supported other nations for self serving reasons with a few exceptions who genuinely supported the alliance, when the power they had hoarded and relied on for centuries was taken they resorted to unsavory methods to survive and their leader almost doomed Azeroth to sate their addiction to power, it took nearly being destroyed by that for them to realize how far they had fallen.

you must have a really negative view of the alliance if you think that the Kaldorei empire (and suramar before the nighthold raid) or Quel'thalas are civilisations the Alliance embody or should seek to replicate, the fact that the Nightborne, Blood Elves and Highborne all nearly doomed Azeroth for similar reasons (addiction to arcane power, smug/arrogant sense of superiority, devotion to a singular figure) should tell you they were an incredibly flawed people who who's culture either destroyed them or had to change their ways in order to not be a active danger to Azeroth.

The high elves were in the alliance -, the blood elves are those people in all round

The kaldorei civilization is the more advanced , but earlier version - they both share all the major traits, themes, character, views, ideologies etc that all alliance races that came together shared. and off course, the kaldorei and the Highborne themselves were members their first.

Not only that, if the blood elves and Nightborne had continued in the vein of Kael'thas and Elisande of 2.0 and 7.0, they at least would have been somewhat different, but they didn't, the Nightborne restore the kaldorei original goody goody two shoes nobility and uprightness - you see this in Thalyssra's noble character and values. They are very much alliance, and kaldorei.

Blizzard decided to do away with the different group the Kael'thas blood elves and the Elisande Nightborne in both instances were becoming, killed them off, and basically the remaining masses were the good guys, very much in their original identity.

Now, they're not exactly the same, no one ever is, if you claim the small changes in the blood elves or even Nightborne some how disqualify them, then you might as well claim that the changes in every human nation, and alliance race somehow disqualifies them, but ofc, I'm not talking about all the alliance races being identical.

They differ amongst themselves, and even within each race, they differ, as you can clearly see kaldorei priesthood are different from druids are different from Highborne are different from Illidari -- as Bronzebeards are different from Dark irons and Wildhammers and even between themselves are different according sometimes to their trade or creed or code.

Yet the races that have traditionally made up the alliance are characterised by their similarities

Theme
Nature
Characteristics
Appearances
Values
Sense of law and order /right and wrong
Interests
Culture
Attitudes and views of civilization and life
Ideologies
Religions
Focuses
etc etc

They are not identical, but they have a wide berth of commonality in those things, and trust me high elf/blood elf, night elf incl Highborne/Nightborne belong to that group alongside humans, dwarves, draenei, gnomes - that's where they fit.

They do not fit with orcs, trolls, goblins, tauren etc.

Now if blizzard had done to the elves on crossing over what they did to the Forsaken undead - they'd have felt different enough. Kael'thas' blood elves and Elisande's Nightborne could have worked for leading to something different from the very alliancey high elves and Kaldorei, but they didn't. An even better example were what they did with the Naga and San'layn, clearly elven, and elven off shoot, but different enough from what is kaldorei and kaldorei civilization and Thalassian to definitely not feel like they're alliance.

And I feel they must make that move now. The alliance needs the boost fully regaining the high elves and kaldorei civilization would bring an the horde can afford to lose those alliance vestiges.

Perhaps the best way is for the blood elves to develop into something new and unique not seen before, away from their high elven roots, same with the Nightborne, and stories can be written, this is what Mace feels would be the best, I think because it would eventually replace what was lost with something of relatively impressive grade.
but it isn't the only option, I am okay with that one because the blood elves and Nightborne that remain on the horde would not be high elven or kaldorei civilization based anymore, but something new, possibly more horde like, possibly unique, but other options involve just minimising them and putting them in the background, work could be focused on making the Orcs , Trolls and Goblins more impressive and attractive in ways that continue to match the horde theme.

My most preferred option is taking the elves into neutrality, both Night and Thalassians, all have good reason to be neutral (Darnassian Kaldorei - have the events of BFA to justify it, Blood elves in that very high elven character should be finding the horde too much. Nightborne in the Thalyssra vein would be disgusted with the horde for Teldrassil and Sylvanas' actions and shift to neutrality. Void elves currently don't have motive, but it's easy to see the alliance, with get too suspicious especially if the void elves go a bit out of control and unstable.

What that leaves is is neutral elven nations where individuals can decide whether to keep their old loyalties. the player character would be by default one that keeps those loyalties. What this does is take the elves out of the horde equation and the alliance too, as kingdoms, even though players can still play their races on the two factions. Blizzard can then write much stronger roles with individual elves teaming up with the alliance more often, even though their nations aren't. This fits more. I neutrality, the elves still feel very alliance, because that's what they are, it's the horde that would feel different, more original form this, despite blood elven players still running around and Nightborne ones.

This is my preferred option, but it's also the least likely because it is the least polarising of the options. And blizzard seems to favour strong themes and sharp distinctions - which the blood elves and Nightborne are a contradiction the way they are currently.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Snip

JFC, how can you write paragraph after paragraph of to just trying to justify that factions should follow an aesthetic grouping rather than in universe beneficial political relations?

FFS, groups of people in Warcraft have literally split and chosen Horde or Alliance based on what benefits them politically since Alterac started working with the Horde.

With every expansion it becomes clearer and clearer that Horde and Alliance represent two superpowers that nations must choose if they are to be relevant in world politics, and every alliance has consequences, with more groups splitting/showing dissent towards the factions they chose.

Blood Elves literally chose the Horde because it was more beneficial for them to join them; it was a political decision -in universe, of course there were out of universe reasons as well-

The surface dichotomy between "bestial" and "civilized" races of each faction that WoW presented was already subverted 2 YEARS LATER, 14 YEARS AGO! Factions have gone beyond surface distinctions for like 85% of its life and you still clamor for factional distinction that makes aesthetic and thematic sense.

This is not dumb in a stupid way, this is dumb in a "I refuse to accept what the setting has been for most of its existence", willfully delusional, and you, personally have not just derailed the Night Elf Thread with what you want the game to be, now you are doing the same with the High Elf one. FFS

[Traveler Voltin]

by Official standards havent the Silvermoon and the blood elves been in the Horde longer than Silvermoon and the high elves when they were in the alliance in WC2?

[Varodoc]

Still hoping for short ear options for Void elves... come on Blizzard, make it happen!

[Ogren]

JFC, how can you write paragraph after paragraph of to just trying to justify that factions should follow an aesthetic grouping rather than in universe beneficial political relations?

FFS, groups of people in Warcraft have literally split and chosen Horde or Alliance based on what benefits them politically since Alterac started working with the Horde.

With every expansion it becomes clearer and clearer that Horde and Alliance represent two superpowers that nations must choose if they are to be relevant in world politics, and every alliance has consequences, with more groups splitting/showing dissent towards the factions they chose.

Blood Elves literally chose the Horde because it was more beneficial for them to join them; it was a political decision -in universe, of course there were out of universe reasons as well-

The surface dichotomy between "bestial" and "civilized" races of each faction that WoW presented was already subverted 2 YEARS LATER, 14 YEARS AGO! Factions have gone beyond surface distinctions for like 85% of its life and you still clamor for factional distinction that makes aesthetic and thematic sense.

This is not dumb in a stupid way, this is dumb in a "I refuse to accept what the setting has been for most of its existence", willfully delusional, and you, personally have not just derailed the Night Elf Thread with what you want the game to be, now you are doing the same with the High Elf one. FFS

On one issue I do kind of agree with it's that I think Blizzard could do more to make Alliance races more attractive, specifically Humans and Night Elves. They did well to make Void Elves more visually appealing by giving them more options, but I'd still love if they had made alternate body shapes for Humans or Night Elves to reduce how overly caricaturized they look, I know the game prides itself on exaggerated graphics but I would still love to play a Human that more resembles a Blood Elf or Void Elf in body shape and silhouette rather than the caveman humans we're stuck with.

Probably off-topic tangent for me there, but I think it goes hand in hand with me at least agreeing I do wish the Alliance played up more strongly its theme of being a beautiful and illustrious faction with more prim and proper races than the more brutal Horde. (And these things can be done without taking away from Blood Elves or Nightborne, which I agree should be left alone there, just make the Alliance more visually pleasing in its race options.)

[Ardenaso]

by Official standards havent the Silvermoon and the blood elves been in the Horde longer than Silvermoon and the high elves when they were in the alliance in WC2?

Yep,

9 years on the Horde (year 25 to present)

vs.

2 years in the Alliance of Lordaeron in WC2 (year 4-6) and many months but not more than a year in WC3 (year 20-21)

and 20 seconds in the Grand Alliance lols (year 29)

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

On one issue I do kind of agree with it's that I think Blizzard could do more to make Alliance races more attractive, specifically Humans and Night Elves. They did well to make Void Elves more visually appealing by giving them more options, but I'd still love if they had made alternate body shapes for Humans or Night Elves to reduce how overly caricaturized they look, I know the game prides itself on exaggerated graphics but I would still love to play a Human that more resembles a Blood Elf or Void Elf in body shape and silhouette rather than the caveman humans we're stuck with.

Probably off-topic tangent for me there, but I think it goes hand in hand with me at least agreeing I do wish the Alliance played up more strongly its theme of being a beautiful and illustrious faction with more prim and proper races than the more brutal Horde. (And these things can be done without taking away from Blood Elves or Nightborne, which I agree should be left alone there, just make the Alliance more visually pleasing in its race options.)

Honestly the whole "I do wish the Alliance played up more strongly its theme of being a beautiful and illustrious faction with more prim and proper races than the more brutal Horde" just irks me, sorry. Since BE's were introduced, that former dichotomy is gone; like like it or not, the Horde now has the two "fanciest" races in Azeroth.

But while a wholeheartedly disagree that one faction should be the "prettier" one; I do agree that the alliance does need more visual appeal, specially when it just seems to be overrun by human medieval fantasy aesthetics; I agree that the human model is not that appealing, and to a degree, I think I understand wanting something fancier on the Alliance.

IMO, it could be Half Elves based on Dalaran, Highborne reclaiming their heritage, or who knows, Kyrian.

[Imperator4321]

I think this is the incorrect way of viewing the Quel'dorei in terms of which faction they fit better into.

They're an ancient people whose individual members live to be several thousands years old. To them, all the recent wars are like nothing. It's last month to you and me. They must be thinking very differently of time than the Orcs and Humans do. So the Second War means nothing, and the Third War means nothing.

But what does matter, then? Well, culture, and trade, I would imagine. They're a civilized people of magic users who live in great towns and towers. They want fine fabrics, good food and all the commodities of "modern life". Their existence for thousands of years has been that of luxury, privilege, magic practice, learning, and so on.

Are they able to acquire those things and support that lifestyle as members of the Horde, cut off from their neighbouring nations on the Eastern Kingdoms? Well, probably not. The Nightborne of Suramar might provide the answer, but to be honest their civilization seems fairly tiny right now. It is my impression that Ironforge and Stormwind are proper kingdoms with agriculture, trade, and so on.

I think the only logical thing for the Quel'dorei would be to leave the Horde and become neutral, locking themselves up inside Quel'thalas to mend and prosper. They'd probably seek to establish trade relations with both factions, or some sort of armistice with the Alliance.

But I don't see how remaining on the Horde would be beneficial to them now that the threat of extinction has passed and the Alliance has reclaimed Lordaeron from the Undead.

I feel this would be the wrong direction for the Blood Elves, their arrogance and desire to isolate themselves from the rest of Azeroth, only supporting their allies when it suited them is to an extent what led them to their state in Burning Crusade where they were far more morally ambigious, vengeance obsessed and desperate to survive which nearly led their people to further ruin with their leader aligning himself with the Burning Legion.

Having the Blood Elves return to being isolated and only concerned with Quel'thalas would essentially undo any positive development their people had after the relighting of the Sunwell essentially returning them to their pre-WC3 state, the end of TBC was very much framed the Blood Elves redemption after an entire expansion showing their darker side (mana draining, light draining, silencing outspoken critics of their leaders) and having them continue to find support and comradery in the horde is a much stronger story beat for the blood elves than them simply returning to their pre TBC way of looking at the world.

Personally i don't think they need to fit into the Horde aesthetically since the Horde isn't one culture, it's defined by the devs themselves as being made up of outcast, misunderstood and cast-off people united by a shared goal of survival despite their differences, theres no greater horde culture that the Blood Elves needed to adopt. additionally while they may not have fit aesthetically I think the Blood Elves (especially in TBC) very much fit the horde personality wise, being a vengeful people desperate to survive at any costs, while a lot of that TBC characterization has been undone since then i think the reasoning still holds true.

[Varodoc]

Yep,

9 years on the Horde (year 25 to present)

vs.

2 years in the Alliance of Lordaeron in WC2 (year 4-6) and many months but not more than a year in WC3 (year 20-21)

and 20 seconds in the Grand Alliance lols (year 29)

Wrong.

TBC takes place in Year 26, so 8 years.

Quel'Thalas has been in the Alliance for AT LEAST 10 years. They joined in Year 5, when the Second War began, and left some time between Year 15-18, when we have the splintering of the Alliance.

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Timeline

And this is ignoring the years of alliance between Humans and Quel'dorei during the Troll Wars, and the subsequent centuries of friendship and mutual protection between these two nations (just look at Dalaran).

So, No, Quel'Thalas has WAY MORE history with the Humans and the Alliance than the Horde. It is therefore not a surprise that Theron tried rejoining the Alliance in MoP.

[elbleuet]

Wrong.

TBC takes place in Year 26, so 8 years.

Quel'Thalas has been in the Alliance for AT LEAST 10 years. They joined in Year 5, when the Second War began, and left some time between Year 15-18, when we have the splintering of the Alliance.

Source: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Timeline

And this is ignoring the years of alliance between Humans and Quel'dorei during the Troll Wars, and the subsequent centuries of friendship and mutual protection between these two nations (just look at Dalaran).

So, No, Quel'Thalas has WAY MORE history with the Humans and the Alliance than the Horde. It is therefore not a surprise that Theron tried rejoining the Alliance in MoP.

Thanks for pointing this.

Quel'Thalas has been allied with Dalaran for +3k years.

Therefore, their alliance with the Horde is insignificant if we look at their past interractions with humans.

That's why Horde blood elves are purely gameplay. They litteraly have 0 reason to favor the Horde over their dalarani allies.

[Imperator4321]

But the Quel'dorei are no longer a vengeful, desperate people on the brink of extinction. They were for a brief moment in time, but as you yourself said, they've made an astonishing recovery and are now in control of their homeland and the Sunwell.

Like you said, the Horde is for survivors. Hell, the Worgen and Night Elves would fit better in the Horde than the Blood Elves if you look at it that way. The Quel'dorei now fit much better inside the Alliance again. But since you can't just take them from the Horde, I'd suggest neutrality instead. They no longer need the Horde. But they will need trade with the Alliance in the long run.

I think the best solution of all would be to gather all High Elves inside Silvermoon, and then let Void Elves and Blood Elves be two separate cults who follow Alleria and Sylvanas. Normal High Elves follow Vereesa and are neutral, while the others join Horde and Alliance.

Yes they were a vengeful, desperate people on the brink of extinction, they pulled themselves back from that before they allowed themselves to fall even further and instead of returning to their old ways and forgetting their allies, they decided to stand by those who had supported them in their darkest moments (the horde).

the lines between faction aesthetics have been blurred since TBC, holding onto the alliance as being civilised and nice as the horde as bestial and ugly was outdated in 2007 and is even more outdated now since the Horde now has the Nightborne and Zandalari (two remnants of once mighty empires) and the Alliance has the Worgen and Void Elves (two noble and proud people magically cursed and exiles from their homeland) the Worgen and Void Elves fit into the Alliance due to the way the story was written same way the Blood Elves fit into the Horde due to the way the story was written.

Do you really think that solution would be satisfying, telling players and those invested in the Blood Elves that they are esssentially a radical minority (not to mention Lor'themar wants nothing to do with Sylvanas now) in their own faction and the rest of their race/faction is "neutral" this accomplishes nothing aside making a single city neutral. actually you've basically just turned the entirety of the Blood Elves into the Sunreavers and Void Eves into the Silver Covenant with Silvermoon replacing Dalaran.

[Ardenaso]

and left some time between Year 15-18, when we have the splintering of the Alliance.

that's weird I thought WC2 ended at year 6

[Varodoc]

that's weird I thought WC2 ended at year 6

Quel'Thalas didn't leave right after the Second War. They stayed through the whole Invasion of Draenor and then the whole debacle surrounding the internment camps. That's what happens during those 10 or so years between the defeat of the orcs during the Second War and the splintering of the Alliance.