1. #22781
    Quote Originally Posted by Valandale View Post
    I don't even get this current flame war, the blood elves are high elves who forsook their old name to honor the fallen, the High Elves that remained with the Alliance didn't see the point. At this point Quel'thalas is lost, the High Elves don't need the Sunwell like they used to and as long as Quel' danas remains neutral they can still make pilgrimages there. They should just found a new nation, there is no one in the line of Sunstrider alive to have any loyalty to, unless they bring back that WC3 Eldin character. In any case, the Blood Elves just can't be reconciled with at the moment, and until blizzard bothers getting rid of the shitty Alliance v. Horde story or manages to make it actually mean something, it's pointless. Conveniently in BfA there were lots of islands that had expeditions to them that could be settled by varying exiled/homeless/newly enfranchised races. It'd be nice for something to come out of that waste of development. If we can call those developed in any sense of the word. Build up all the races instead of leaving them constantly refugeed in other cities for several expansions. Take a break from war and destruction and actually rebuild the World of Warcraft.

    Nightborne going horde was unexpected due to the dual faction input, but like void elves, they seem to have been a rush/half baked job by blizzard, and while void elves eventually got more attention, the nightborne have been left in the dust. Besides, them being hypocrites and betraying the Night Elves is in fact, ancient history, they betrayed them during the War of the Ancients and betrayed them again to then march on their homeland. The Nightborne are all about self-preservation and isolation so they didn't want any overtures of influence coming from Darnassus in all likelihood, since a the time the Night Elves outnumbered and controlled a great deal more of Elvish civilization, (they probably still do). But the storytelling blizzard did was freaking awful and had zero nuance or exposition. "The Alliance likes to wash out other cultures!" despite the fact the Dwarves, Draenei and Night elves have much stronger racial identities than trolls or tauren in the horde. It's all spikes. At least in the alliance you can tell when it's a dwarf forge/cannon tower or elvish/draenic settlement.

    Most of the issues just get get traced back to Blizzard not bothering to tell a decent story or give appropriate details. All of the reasoning behind the splits of the High Elves/Blood Elves could be explained better, but it's just not really looked into by the writers. Same can be said for why the Nightborne chose a war mongering faction to join despite just barely surviving a Burning Legion occupation and then civil war.
    Probably because the motivations for such faction changes were never because of story or lore, but for evening out player numbers.

    As such it wasn’t a high priority to dedicate more resources to telling a compelling story because such doesn’t really matter either.

    I pose these questions to the detractors.

    So what if there are alliance races on the horde?
    So what if it is the best of the alliance on the horde?
    So what if the identity of the horde has been altered because of it?

    Blizzard were fully aware of what they were doing, what it meant and still did it.

    They obviously don’t quite put the same value on integrity, identity, consistency etc of factions, races or their story as you fans do.

    Game systems, playability, functionality, eye candy etc are all higher priority.

    Why any of this surprises any of you who have seen proof over and over again is beyond me.

    Equally as silly is fighting each other over something it’s creators barely care about. Especially since you all clearly love the same things and the same racial groups. It’s silly.

    High elves and night elves will surely rise in prominence on the alliance, it’s already happening and their is great popular demand for it , that is clear.

    Yet at the same time it is highly unlikely Silvermoon or Suramar are going anywhere either - it just seems rather unnecessary to happen and I don’t think they care enough to make that sorta change. For any of the reasons promoted here.

    They are more likely to build the night elves a mega New Zin’Azshari and a cool void elf city than transfer Silvermoon and Suramar to the alliance.

    The most likely scenario is you will see no infrastructure changes or cities etc, you’ll just see Night elves and void elves as well as high elves play bigger roles in the alliance and be very bad ass.

    If I were in blizzard, 10.0 would have a badass amazing elven city alliance elves can call home, linked to the void and the stars touching both the Kaldorei and ren’dorei with quel’dorei ordering carried out by Highborne and high elves. Basically they all play a role. And that’s it.

    1 city, cool enough to make you really happy. and feel good, no more.

  2. #22782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Probably because the motivations for such faction changes were never because of story or lore, but for evening out player numbers.

    As such it wasn’t a high priority to dedicate more resources to telling a compelling story because such doesn’t really matter either.

    I pose these questions to the detractors.

    So what if there are alliance races on the horde?
    So what if it is the best of the alliance on the horde?
    So what if the identity of the horde has been altered because of it?

    Blizzard were fully aware of what they were doing, what it meant and still did it.

    They obviously don’t quite put the same value on integrity, identity, consistency etc of factions, races or their story as you fans do.

    Game systems, playability, functionality, eye candy etc are all higher priority.

    Why any of this surprises any of you who have seen proof over and over again is beyond me.

    Equally as silly is fighting each other over something it’s creators barely care about. Especially since you all clearly love the same things and the same racial groups. It’s silly.

    High elves and night elves will surely rise in prominence on the alliance, it’s already happening and their is great popular demand for it , that is clear.

    Yet at the same time it is highly unlikely Silvermoon or Suramar are going anywhere either - it just seems rather unnecessary to happen and I don’t think they care enough to make that sorta change. For any of the reasons promoted here.

    They are more likely to build the night elves a mega New Zin’Azshari and a cool void elf city than transfer Silvermoon and Suramar to the alliance.

    The most likely scenario is you will see no infrastructure changes or cities etc, you’ll just see Night elves and void elves as well as high elves play bigger roles in the alliance and be very bad ass.

    If I were in blizzard, 10.0 would have a badass amazing elven city alliance elves can call home, linked to the void and the stars touching both the Kaldorei and ren’dorei with quel’dorei ordering carried out by Highborne and high elves. Basically they all play a role. And that’s it.

    1 city, cool enough to make you really happy. and feel good, no more.
    I don't think it matters which race are on which faction, or even if the factions matter at all at this point.

    A lot of my personal reason for playable actual high elves on alliance is because of the Warcraft 2 alliance races. And the only missing races from War2 are High Elves and Ogres.

    In that same reasoning we had an Orc clan side with the Alliance and a Human nation side with the Horde. Ever since then we have had races play both sides and neutral groups of all racial compositions. It really is not a problem. Any lore issue can be chalked up to an asspull, as we've seen with almost all the allied races.

    Just give the alliance an icon on the character creation screen for the main races. Have it give a flavored bit of High Elf info. Copy and paste the template from Void Elves, less the void-y bits. And voila.

    I hope the next expansion we revisit the changes that occur on Azeroth during our time in the Shadowlands.

  3. #22783
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post

    A lot of my personal reason for playable actual high elves on alliance is because of the Warcraft 2 alliance races. And the only missing races from War2 are High Elves and Ogres.
    forest trolls

  4. #22784
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I don't think it matters which race are on which faction, or even if the factions matter at all at this point.

    A lot of my personal reason for playable actual high elves on alliance is because of the Warcraft 2 alliance races. And the only missing races from War2 are High Elves and Ogres.

    In that same reasoning we had an Orc clan side with the Alliance and a Human nation side with the Horde. Ever since then we have had races play both sides and neutral groups of all racial compositions. It really is not a problem. Any lore issue can be chalked up to an asspull, as we've seen with almost all the allied races.

    Just give the alliance an icon on the character creation screen for the main races. Have it give a flavored bit of High Elf info. Copy and paste the template from Void Elves, less the void-y bits. And voila.

    I hope the next expansion we revisit the changes that occur on Azeroth during our time in the Shadowlands.
    Your observation is correct, but until the blood elves, such faction alignment swaps were temporary for specific story elements, they didn't alter the fabric of the horde or alliance by their collaboration or presence on the enemy faction.

    This is what has changed to detrimental affect by keeping the heart of the high elves and the kaldorei civilization on the horde. These are problematic to the faction identity.

    And I disagree with the poster that it isn't relevant. It is quite, and if they can't value or see the importance, they'll be operating crippled almost. It's an irrational obsession to change so much just to keep blood elves and night born on the horde, when they don't really belong there and never did, and have served their purpose in boosting the popularity of the faction.

    Now the nice things of the horde should come from horde races like Trolls (as we saw in Zuldazar) and can see in Zul'drak and rebuilt Zul'farak and Aman, as well as others like orcs, new Grommash City, Goblins - expanded Kezan, new Undermine, Tauren, and even forsaken having places like Icecrown Citadel.. meanwhile let the alliance races have their things, high elves have Silvermoon and Quel'thalas night elves have their kaldorei civilization - these things should not be on the horde, and aren't needed. To be honest the horde only needs the models playable, and that can happen with a remnant group of Nightborne and Blood elves - while the rest of the stuff returns tot he High elves and kaldorei - the reason why it has opposition here is because horde elf fans don't like that happening.

    It's not based on logic, or sense or fact, you can't use those arguments here, they want those things staying on the horde so they can feel superior to the alliance, and have bragging rights. (but I won't deny a measure of attachment has grown too, but I'm not convinced it's for what the horde actually stands for, it's entirely based on the alliance because it's what is alliance about them is what they like, cos there isn't anything hordish about these elven groups.

    However concerning attitudes I've noticed in some of these horde elf fans, it will be the same thing if blizzard does an even nice city for the night elves and high elves as well as void elves - they'd resent that too despite keeping Silvermoon and Suramar, I know how these people think.

    Truth be told the best option is take Silvermoon and Suramar away back to the alliance and replace them on the horde with more troll, orc, goblin, forsaken themed cities, and have the remnant blood elves and Nightborne share with one of the horde races, or have a small camp or town of their own with the horde they love so much. Let the elves, an alliance thing, be primarily alliance, stop diluting the horde, and let the horde be what the horde was originally meant to be.

    It will fix things fast.

    They could off course later give the blood elves and Nightborne remnant even better cities - but they must not be elven, they can take over an alien races' city, but to give them better elven stuff would be re-inviting the same problem, boosting alliance concepts on the horde.

    They could change the character and disposition of the blood elves and Nightborne to match the horde, and build these new mindset blood elves and Nightborne cities of their own, and make them great, as long as they different from kaldorei and high elven stuff sufficiently. They could look amazing, but they must be different, reflecting the change these races have undergone and offering something not tied to their alliance origins.

    What my haters don't realise is that I'm really not horde hating, I'm fine with horde getting just as good as they've lost or even more, and for those elves to be something more, they just shouldn't be the alliance culture and civilization of the high elves and kaldorei that they have been. But @Rhlor and co just won't see what I'm trying to say, because they're offended and butt hurt at the idea of any losses to their precious elves, they are not willing to look at the broader spectrum and consider the bigger picture.

    If you like blood elves and Nightborne as they are now, you really are liking High elves and Kaldorei civilization - these aren't horde races or concepts, but alliance ones, even though they're on the horde, you're not liking what the horde is or represents, this is why you're not satisfied with blizzard writing more aggressive roles for the horde or ones that fit the klingon-esque character of the orcs or the deadly insidious one of the forsaken or the trolls who can be quite vindictive and cruel as well as good and honourable - in a different world setting.

    You like alliance stuff things, and have become comfortable with them existing amongst the horde races. This is not inconceivable ofc, it has already happened and most accept it.. however it is identity confusing and it is sub optimal, you really like alliance things. These things should be on the alliance, it's not good to have the best of the alliance on the horde. Therefore it needs to be changed. And the best way to do it is to take the alliance stuff back to it, and either leave a small enough amount of blood elves and Nightborne that they don't show up the horde races and/or transform them into something different , no longer high elven or kaldorei in character (not just name change or minor model changes), but something new, different, that can match the horde better or new enough to bring something interesting and have them build in a new way that is divorced from the kaldorei empire/civilisation and the Thalassian Kingdom of the High elves.

    I really can't explain it better than this @Rhlor - if you can't understand me from this then I don't know what else to say.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-12-09 at 12:44 AM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  5. #22785
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Your observation is correct, but until the blood elves, such faction alignment swaps were temporary for specific story elements, they didn't alter the fabric of the horde or alliance by their collaboration or presence on the enemy faction.

    This is what has changed to detrimental affect by keeping the heart of the high elves and the kaldorei civilization on the horde. These are problematic to the faction identity.

    And I disagree with the poster that it isn't relevant. It is quite, and if they can't value or see the importance, they'll be operating crippled almost. It's an irrational obsession to change so much just to keep blood elves and night born on the horde, when they don't really belong there and never did, and have served their purpose in boosting the popularity of the faction.

    Now the nice things of the horde should come from horde races like Trolls (as we saw in Zuldazar) and can see in Zul'drak and rebuilt Zul'farak and Aman, as well as others like orcs, new Grommash City, Goblins - expanded Kezan, new Undermine, Tauren, and even forsaken having places like Icecrown Citadel.. meanwhile let the alliance races have their things, high elves have Silvermoon and Quel'thalas night elves have their kaldorei civilization - these things should not be on the horde, and aren't needed. To be honest the horde only needs the models playable, and that can happen with a remnant group of Nightborne and Blood elves - while the rest of the stuff returns tot he High elves and kaldorei - the reason why it has opposition here is because horde elf fans don't like that happening.

    It's not based on logic, or sense or fact, you can't use those arguments here, they want those things staying on the horde so they can feel superior to the alliance, and have bragging rights. (but I won't deny a measure of attachment has grown too, but I'm not convinced it's for what the horde actually stands for, it's entirely based on the alliance because it's what is alliance about them is what they like, cos there isn't anything hordish about these elven groups.

    However concerning attitudes I've noticed in some of these horde elf fans, it will be the same thing if blizzard does an even nice city for the night elves and high elves as well as void elves - they'd resent that too despite keeping Silvermoon and Suramar, I know how these people think.

    Truth be told the best option is take Silvermoon and Suramar away back to the alliance and replace them on the horde with more troll, orc, goblin, forsaken themed cities, and have the remnant blood elves and Nightborne share with one of the horde races, or have a small camp or town of their own with the horde they love so much. Let the elves, an alliance thing, be primarily alliance, stop diluting the horde, and let the horde be what the horde was originally meant to be.

    It will fix things fast.

    They could off course later give the blood elves and Nightborne remnant even better cities - but they must not be elven, they can take over an alien races' city, but to give them better elven stuff would be re-inviting the same problem, boosting alliance concepts on the horde.

    They could change the character and disposition of the blood elves and Nightborne to match the horde, and build these new mindset blood elves and Nightborne cities of their own, and make them great, as long as they different from kaldorei and high elven stuff sufficiently. They could look amazing, but they must be different, reflecting the change these races have undergone and offering something not tied to their alliance origins.

    What my haters don't realise is that I'm really not horde hating, I'm fine with horde getting just as good as they've lost or even more, and for those elves to be something more, they just shouldn't be the alliance culture and civilization of the high elves and kaldorei that they have been. But @Rhlor and co just won't see what I'm trying to say, because they're offended and butt hurt at the idea of any losses to their precious elves, they are not willing to look at the broader spectrum and consider the bigger picture.

    If you like blood elves and Nightborne as they are now, you really are liking High elves and Kaldorei civilization - these aren't horde races or concepts, but alliance ones, even though they're on the horde, you're not liking what the horde is or represents, this is why you're not satisfied with blizzard writing more aggressive roles for the horde or ones that fit the klingon-esque character of the orcs or the deadly insidious one of the forsaken or the trolls who can be quite vindictive and cruel as well as good and honourable - in a different world setting.

    You like alliance stuff things, and have become comfortable with them existing amongst the horde races. This is not inconceivable ofc, it has already happened and most accept it.. however it is identity confusing and it is sub optimal, you really like alliance things. These things should be on the alliance, it's not good to have the best of the alliance on the horde. Therefore it needs to be changed. And the best way to do it is to take the alliance stuff back to it, and either leave a small enough amount of blood elves and Nightborne that they don't show up the horde races and/or transform them into something different , no longer high elven or kaldorei in character (not just name change or minor model changes), but something new, different, that can match the horde better or new enough to bring something interesting and have them build in a new way that is divorced from the kaldorei empire/civilisation and the Thalassian Kingdom of the High elves.

    I really can't explain it better than this @Rhlor - if you can't understand me from this then I don't know what else to say.
    You named and since you mainly argue with me I suppose it is me when you mean that I do not want the elves of the alliance to get good things?

    That is a lie, unlike you, I am consistent with my thoughts over time.

    at the time when the legion came out I defended that dalaran should continue to be an alliance city! I throughout the expa supports all the time that suramar and the nightborne should be part of the night elves! not like you who from the beginning supported exchanging nightborne for void elves / high elves.

    It doesn't bother me that the alliance elves have good things. I'm glad the night elves have all the great customizations that they received in shadowlands. I support that the void elves have more personalization and as I like the lore I even support that the void elves have green eyes because the silvermoon scholar in telogrus have green eyes.

    I hope that the void elves and the night elves have beautiful cities. I hate that blizzard destroyed teldrassil and I wish with all my heart that the night elves soon have a new capital in nordrassil that is beautiful.

    About the capitals of the elves of the horde, you do not understand that both suramar and silvermoon are an essential part of the narrative of those playable races. the destruction of quelthalas and their rebuilding is a vital part of all lore blood elf and that has nothing to do with the thalassian of the alliance. that silvermoon could rise again from the ruins was thanks to rommath and it was the blood elves the patriots who decided to stay and fight to save quelthalas that today we have our kingdom back.
    thalyssra and the nightborne fought to save suramar the entire legion campaign is all about that is their reason for being. you cannot take away from the nightborne what is an essential part of all their lore and development.

    you didn't like what blizzard did i get it, actually you complimented blizzard and said it was fair trade. but now you can't think that it makes sense to take something so important from playable races for all their development and lore.

    and to finish lordaeron belongs to the forsaken

  6. #22786
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    You named and since you mainly argue with me I suppose it is me when you mean that I do not want the elves of the alliance to get good things?

    That is a lie, unlike you, I am consistent with my thoughts over time.

    at the time when the legion came out I defended that dalaran should continue to be an alliance city! I throughout the expa supports all the time that suramar and the nightborne should be part of the night elves! not like you who from the beginning supported exchanging nightborne for void elves / high elves.

    It doesn't bother me that the alliance elves have good things. I'm glad the night elves have all the great customizations that they received in shadowlands. I support that the void elves have more personalization and as I like the lore I even support that the void elves have green eyes because the silvermoon scholar in telogrus have green eyes.

    I hope that the void elves and the night elves have beautiful cities. I hate that blizzard destroyed teldrassil and I wish with all my heart that the night elves soon have a new capital in nordrassil that is beautiful.

    About the capitals of the elves of the horde, you do not understand that both suramar and silvermoon are an essential part of the narrative of those playable races. the destruction of quelthalas and their rebuilding is a vital part of all lore blood elf and that has nothing to do with the thalassian of the alliance. that silvermoon could rise again from the ruins was thanks to rommath and it was the blood elves the patriots who decided to stay and fight to save quelthalas that today we have our kingdom back.
    thalyssra and the nightborne fought to save suramar the entire legion campaign is all about that is their reason for being. you cannot take away from the nightborne what is an essential part of all their lore and development.

    you didn't like what blizzard did i get it, actually you complimented blizzard and said it was fair trade. but now you can't think that it makes sense to take something so important from playable races for all their development and lore.

    and to finish lordaeron belongs to the forsaken
    People are allowed to change their minds over time especially when they get wiser or are persuaded by others because they have open minds listen to others when good arguments are put forward or realise things they didnt before.

    The only way I would be happy with Nightborne or blood elves on the horde is either.
    1. They remain like they (high elves and kaldorei with different names) but are a small remnant and insignificant on the horde, losing the high elf kingdom and kaldorei civilization they possess currently to the alliance (horde gets Troll, Orc, Goblin and Forsaken cities to make up)

    2. They change from the high elf and kaldorei noble and very alliance minded and ordered peoples into something different, preferably much closer to the horde, but ultimately distinct enough from the high elf and kaldorei types they are currently.

    Furthermore, while here they also lose Silvermoon and Suramar, they would gain or build something new, it can be amazing or horrific, I dont care (prefer amazing), but it must be a different architecture and set from what they had as high elves and night elven civilization. I'd like the blood elves to gain some new physical features that high elves never had. Quite visible in the NPCs, but for player diversity, these new unique blood elf model features will be optional. High elves and void elves won't have these.

    I'll be okay with either option 1 or 2 - for all the reasons I have stated over and over again.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  7. #22787
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    People are allowed to change their minds over time especially when they get wiser or are persuaded by others because they have open minds listen to others when good arguments are put forward or realise things they didnt before.

    The only way I would be happy with Nightborne or blood elves on the horde is either.
    1. They remain like they (high elves and kaldorei with different names) but are a small remnant and insignificant on the horde, losing the high elf kingdom and kaldorei civilization they possess currently to the alliance (horde gets Troll, Orc, Goblin and Forsaken cities to make up)

    2. They change from the high elf and kaldorei noble and very alliance minded and ordered peoples into something different, preferably much closer to the horde, but ultimately distinct enough from the high elf and kaldorei types they are currently.

    Furthermore, while here they also lose Silvermoon and Suramar, they would gain or build something new, it can be amazing or horrific, I dont care (prefer amazing), but it must be a different architecture and set from what they had as high elves and night elven civilization. I'd like the blood elves to gain some new physical features that high elves never had. Quite visible in the NPCs, but for player diversity, these new unique blood elf model features will be optional. High elves and void elves won't have these.

    I'll be okay with either option 1 or 2 - for all the reasons I have stated over and over again.
    you don't understand playable races or what their lore represents to them. a blood elf is a patriot who will defend silvermoon to the death if the alliance invades quelthalas no blood elf will abandon it they will have to kill the entire race, no one absolutely no one will abandon the sunwell and silvermoon will fight to the end.

  8. #22788
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    you don't understand playable races or what their lore represents to them. a blood elf is a patriot who will defend silvermoon to the death if the alliance invades quelthalas no blood elf will abandon it they will have to kill the entire race, no one absolutely no one will abandon the sunwell and silvermoon will fight to the end.
    That may be so, no one is doubting that a person will try to defend his home. What is being said here is not that the horde can't have blood elves (would be better if they didn't at all), but if they do, they shouldn't be the high elves they've been painted as, nor should they have the high elf civilization.

    Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.

    Pick one:
    Either stay in that high elf /alliance framework but be very small so that you're barely noticeable on the horde - [this allows high elves on the alliance eto shine and horde races not to be obscured by their high elves. OR

    Blood elves on the horde must become something different enough from the high elves they were, in character, attitudes, civilization etc, even appearance, certainly in architecture - no more high elf stuff, give them something new, different.
    [Same arguments apply for Nightborne they must not be so kaldorei and alliance minded or in that civilisation they must change to fit the horde or be barely noticeable if you want that alliance pie on the horde, it has to be very small]

  9. #22789
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    That may be so, no one is doubting that a person will try to defend his home. What is being said here is not that the horde can't have blood elves (would be better if they didn't at all), but if they do, they shouldn't be the high elves they've been painted as, nor should they have the high elf civilization.

    Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.

    Pick one:
    Either stay in that high elf /alliance framework but be very small so that you're barely noticeable on the horde - [this allows high elves on the alliance eto shine and horde races not to be obscured by their high elves. OR

    Blood elves on the horde must become something different enough from the high elves they were, in character, attitudes, civilization etc, even appearance, certainly in architecture - no more high elf stuff, give them something new, different.
    [Same arguments apply for Nightborne they must not be so kaldorei and alliance minded or in that civilisation they must change to fit the horde or be barely noticeable if you want that alliance pie on the horde, it has to be very small]
    Or High Elves become something different and you nasty, greedy night elf mage fanatics stop talking about our race.

  10. #22790
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    That may be so, no one is doubting that a person will try to defend his home. What is being said here is not that the horde can't have blood elves (would be better if they didn't at all), but if they do, they shouldn't be the high elves they've been painted as, nor should they have the high elf civilization.

    Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.

    Pick one:
    Either stay in that high elf /alliance framework but be very small so that you're barely noticeable on the horde - [this allows high elves on the alliance eto shine and horde races not to be obscured by their high elves. OR

    Blood elves on the horde must become something different enough from the high elves they were, in character, attitudes, civilization etc, even appearance, certainly in architecture - no more high elf stuff, give them something new, different.
    [Same arguments apply for Nightborne they must not be so kaldorei and alliance minded or in that civilisation they must change to fit the horde or be barely noticeable if you want that alliance pie on the horde, it has to be very small]
    you don't understand what it's like to be a blood elf. The main characteristic of the blood elves is the patriotism is the willingness to give their life for quelthalas, a blood elf will fight to death protecting silvermoon and the sunwell that is the defining characteristic of the blood elves. And this is what many players of the alliance always defended that was what they liked about the high elves of the alliance. the high elves of the alliance are not patriots they do not care about quelthalas they prefer to leave quelthalas and defend the alliance for idiological or moral reasons. a high elf would rather see quelthalas destroyed or go live in an alliance city than eat wyrm mana even if this meant saving quelthalas.

    the difference is also clearly seen between blood elves and void elves. The blood elves are a conservative society, they do not want their nation to practice magic that would be a danger to the sunwell, but the void elves and the thalassian who are with them on the contrary are more liberal and are willing to leave quelthalas in their search for knowledge and power.

    if silvermoon goes to the alliance it is for two reasons. for some reason the alliance manages to overcome the defense of the magic barrier and conquers quelthalas and in that case the entire race dies or for some unknown reason quelthalas joins the alliance which would make the entire race join the alliance alliance.

    in either case the blood elf model should be removed from the horde and replaced by some other race, perhaps ogres.

  11. #22791
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.
    Wider high elven society was never particularly invested in the Alliance. The only reason there was a high elven presence in WC2 was because Anasterian sent a token force to support the humans to repay an ancient debt to Lothar's ancestors which he wished to be rid of.

    As the war developed, they were, of course, glad to have human support when the war spilled into Quel'Thalas thanks to the Amani. But, after the war was over, Quel'Thalas left the Alliance.

    High elves are only present in the Alliance forces in WC3 because of a few volunteers, acting on their own volition, going to aid Arthas or they were citizens of Dalaran.

    Quel'Thalas and thereby wider pre-schism high elven society was never really Alliance beyond mutual favour-giving. They were certainly never ideologically invested in the Alliance. Only a minority of individuals (which later collectivised in institutions like the Silver Covenant) were ever Alliance "patriots". As such, high elves really shouldn't be considered a core Alliance race. They never really were. The prominence of a few high elven heroes like Alleria who chose, as individuals, to pledge themselves to the Alliance merely gives the illusion that they were.

    This is not to say that high elves being present in the Alliance isn't interesting. I love the lore of the schism in modern Thalassian society and the fact that this conflict is exacerbated by taking part across faction lines. But, I think people will be disappointed if they continue to insist that "high elves" are a fundamental aspect of the Alliance.

  12. #22792
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Wider high elven society was never particularly invested in the Alliance. The only reason there was a high elven presence in WC2 was because Anasterian sent a token force to support the humans to repay an ancient debt to Lothar's ancestors which he wished to be rid of.

    As the war developed, they were, of course, glad to have human support when the war spilled into Quel'Thalas thanks to the Amani. But, after the war was over, Quel'Thalas left the Alliance.

    High elves are only present in the Alliance forces in WC3 because of a few volunteers, acting on their own volition, going to aid Arthas or they were citizens of Dalaran.

    Quel'Thalas and thereby wider pre-schism high elven society was never really Alliance beyond mutual favour-giving. They were certainly never ideologically invested in the Alliance. Only a minority of individuals (which later collectivised in institutions like the Silver Covenant) were ever Alliance "patriots". As such, high elves really shouldn't be considered a core Alliance race. They never really were. The prominence of a few high elven heroes like Alleria who chose, as individuals, to pledge themselves to the Alliance merely gives the illusion that they were.

    This is not to say that high elves being present in the Alliance isn't interesting. I love the lore of the schism in modern Thalassian society and the fact that this conflict is exacerbated by taking part across faction lines. But, I think people will be disappointed if they continue to insist that "high elves" are a fundamental aspect of the Alliance.
    I remember an alliance user many years ago who pointed out that the difference between blood elves and high elves always existed that there were always Thalassians who preferred the alliance over quelthalas and that there were always Thalassians who preferred quelthalas over the alliance, the elves who they prefer the alliance they leave quelthalas to live in the human kingdoms are individuals not the government nor the majority of the population of quelthalas. the government of quelthalas with anasterian as king always preferred not to be part of the alliance and the majority of the people of quelthalas agreed with that.


    for this user I think his name was fojar or something like that and that he was a great lover of high elves that was what made them special that was what he liked best about high elves who were so loyal to the alliance that they preferred to leave quelthalas and fight your own nation in favor of the alliance.

    and I think this is correct. There were always patriotic high elves and high elves who preferred the alliance, and that ideological difference is a good thing that it exists.

  13. #22793
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    I remember an alliance user many years ago who pointed out that the difference between blood elves and high elves always existed that there were always Thalassians who preferred the alliance over quelthalas and that there were always Thalassians who preferred quelthalas over the alliance, the elves who they prefer the alliance they leave quelthalas to live in the human kingdoms are individuals not the government nor the majority of the population of quelthalas. the government of quelthalas with anasterian as king always preferred not to be part of the alliance and the majority of the people of quelthalas agreed with that.


    for this user I think his name was fojar or something like that and that he was a great lover of high elves that was what made them special that was what he liked best about high elves who were so loyal to the alliance that they preferred to leave quelthalas and fight your own nation in favor of the alliance.

    and I think this is correct. There were always patriotic high elves and high elves who preferred the alliance, and that ideological difference is a good thing that it exists.
    Agreed. As a Thalassian patriot, high elven zealotry for the Alliance has often rubbed me the wrong way, but I've always acknowledged that that shows effective storytelling in that it gives me a visceral reaction.

  14. #22794
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Agreed. As a Thalassian patriot, high elven zealotry for the Alliance has often rubbed me the wrong way, but I've always acknowledged that that shows effective storytelling in that it gives me a visceral reaction.
    and this is what alliance players who want to play with those high elves always talk about, the high elves who always preferred to be aligned with the alliance over queltalas.
    the elves who prefer to let quelthalas die at the hands of the scourge rather than fight to save their kingdom.
    the difference between those who prefer the alliance and those who prefer quelthalas is the ideological difference.
    The question is if you are a patriot who loves quelthalas and are willing to do everything to save our kingdom and the sunwell or on the contrary you are a stateless person who prefers to be in the alliance and want to seek more knowledge and powers in the void.

    I am a patriot and I will always fight for quelthalas.
    selama ashala nore
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2020-12-09 at 04:10 PM.

  15. #22795
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Or High Elves become something different and you nasty, greedy night elf mage fanatics stop talking about our race.
    Both that and the stupid warcraft 2 argument for high elves. Either move with the lore or just stay away from it. The endless discussions about old lore isnt helping any argument. Warcraft rts games are a long time ago...things change.

    I also agree with you about the moderators. The message should be more up front. This is a blood elf thread, not a nightborne, night elf thread.

    @ravenmoon sometimes its better to just.. not post your fanfiction in every thread and ruin it. It could save threads you know. Also funny thing to note.. countless people have been asking/suggesting to keep your posts short.. the message never landed. This causes people to avoid/ignore you. If thay is the wish then it worked.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2020-12-09 at 04:29 PM.

  16. #22796
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Or High Elves become something different and you nasty, greedy night elf mage fanatics stop talking about our race.
    It’s as much my race as it is yours.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    That may be so, no one is doubting that a person will try to defend his home. What is being said here is not that the horde can't have blood elves (would be better if they didn't at all), but if they do, they shouldn't be the high elves they've been painted as, nor should they have the high elf civilization.

    Now as a story goes, it's acceptable for them to have started off with it, but it shouldn't remain that way. The blood elves like they are right now, are high elves in all but name, in a very high elf civilization, this is too alliance, and the best of the alliance, for both reasons it shouldn't be like that if you're gonna remain a horde race. What's alliance should be seen and experienced in the best way on the alliance, not taken to the horde, it does neither faction any good.

    Pick one:
    Either stay in that high elf /alliance framework but be very small so that you're barely noticeable on the horde - [this allows high elves on the alliance eto shine and horde races not to be obscured by their high elves. OR

    Blood elves on the horde must become something different enough from the high elves they were, in character, attitudes, civilization etc, even appearance, certainly in architecture - no more high elf stuff, give them something new, different.
    [Same arguments apply for Nightborne they must not be so kaldorei and alliance minded or in that civilisation they must change to fit the horde or be barely noticeable if you want that alliance pie on the horde, it has to be very small]


    Tier approach. The way it is now
    - is not good lore wise
    - it is not good for the elves,
    - it’s not good for the alliance and
    - it’s not good for the horde. WRT to story, faction integrity and capturing & maintaining the original heart of the horde and alliance.

    There are 3 positions that are all better than the current situation. And I will list them in order of my preference.

    currently both alliance and horde have high elves. And both have the night elves. They are just under different names on the horde and given more of these very alliance civilisations in the horde. This isn’t good. It is this that must change. And here are 3 ways that would work

    My first choice:
    1. The elves and their civilisations go neutral in the story: with some individual or small groups of elves in either Night group or Thalassian group choosing to stick with the alliance or horde. The player character will be one of these.

    This maintains faction identity and integrity of the horde in particular and the alliance to a lesser extent as the elves are taken out of both and it doesn’t really matter if more of one group favour one faction over the otheramongst the players, the nations are neither alliance nor horde even though elven civilisations are alliance conceptualised things.

    Here at least the horde doesn’t have that very alliance thing on it. Night elves, who were always unique enough to be their own faction are fine in this neutral capacity even though their identity, character, history and both their 2 major era cultures and make up are far closer to the alliance than the horde, it works.

    While the high elves are very much alliance, neutral will work given their history of yo-yoing between the two factions. Having their culture not on the horde is the most important thing as it affects the horde a lot more. They will always feel very alliance because that’s their make up, even when neutral, but far less damage to faction identity is done when they are neutral than when they are sitting pretty on a horde factions as high elves in all but name.

    2. The elves on the horde largely return to their original roots but instead of neutrality it’s the alliance. 90% choose to resume their high elf identity allied to the alliance as in the Wc2/3 days and amongst the Nightborne most go neutral with about half favouring the alliance. They are more interested in elven kind.

    The assets go alliance due to share numbers affiliation. 90% of the blood elves going high elves turns Silvermoon blue. And Suramar while supposedly neutral just clicks with many more alliance races including their Kaldorei kin than horde races having a much larger alliance presence visiting - it’s just how the lore is when they made this groups. They were alliance minded and just stuck them on the horde. If they really wanted a horde race they would have made them differently. We all know and can see it fits the alliance more. Skewing the city blue even though both factions have access to Suramar and Nightborne choose their friendships per individual, their citizens free to choose their friends while the city is officially neutral. The civilisation continues as it is, I.e a Kaldorei civilization which the alliance players will identify a lot more than horde players (presumably only belf players will identify with Suramar whereas on the alliance, night elf, void elf, high elf, Draenei, human, gnome and dwarves players can all identify with Suramar their arcane dispositions will boost resonance.

    fact in this state, more Nightborne will befriend alliance races

    The loss of the alliance elven civilisations on the horde here is made up for by more Troll ciVilizations like the Drakkari and Zul’Drak, the Amani and Zul’Aman, The Farakki and Zul’Fatal. Goblins getting Kezan and Indermine , Mag’har turning Grommasj Hold into Grommash City in Borean Tundra.

    The horde will feel a lot less diluted by alliance civilisations with only a remnant of the elven races their in their very high elf and night elf character. This would also work

    3. The Blood elves and Nightborne stay horde but change, they are written away from being the alliance centred high elf and Kaldorei civilisation so as to make them different from the alliance and/or closer to the other horde races.

    Here they either lose Suramar and Silvermoon in which case the alliance get them and they build something new for the horde elves that reflects their departure form their high elven and Kaldorei nobility roots they’ve so far being operating with on the horde.

    Or they change these cities to reflect their new alliance divorced idenetity (i.e. re model Silvermoon and Suramar, even rename them) in which case Blizz builds the alliance night elves and high elves newer and better versions of both the Kaldorei and Thalassian civilisations.

    This would be my 3rd choice. But all of them work

    In all these cases the identity of the horde and the alliance are pulled further apart and made more distinctive restoring the original faction ethos faithful to the RTS and classic

    also common to all these is that both the alliance and horde continue to have elves

    but the high elf and Kaldorei cultures and civilisations are all on the alliance or much stronger their. Whereas on the horde it’s much reduced. And feels that way to players. Even in option 3, the new change in the blood elves and Nightborne will mark them apart from the high elves and Kaldorei nobility they’ve been operating as.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2020-12-09 at 06:26 PM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  17. #22797
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    and this is what alliance players who want to play with those high elves always talk about, the high elves who always preferred to be aligned with the alliance over queltalas.
    the elves who prefer to let quelthalas die at the hands of the scourge rather than fight to save their kingdom.
    the difference between those who prefer the alliance and those who prefer quelthalas is the ideological difference.
    The question is if you are a patriot who loves quelthalas and are willing to do everything to save our kingdom and the sunwell or on the contrary you are a stateless person who prefers to be in the alliance and want to seek more knowledge and powers in the void.

    I am a patriot and I will always fight for quelthalas.
    selama ashala nore
    Agreed. I flit between different characters across the factions, but Quel'Thalas will always be my spiritual home in WoW.

    I think elves like those in the Silver Covenant are often as you describe, but I've got a void elf I'm playing at the moment and I'm musing on a backstory for her that allows her to be a patriot but still bat for the other team (while game mechanics demand it).

    Roughly so far, I'm thinking:

    - Farstrider who lost her husband in an Amani raid during the Second War
    - Couldn't remain in Quel'Thalas because everything reminded her of him (her sister is still there)
    - Decided to go to Dalaran to get away from it all and join the city's defences to distract herself
    - Third War happens, Quel'Thalas is decimated and Archimonde destroys Dalaran
    - She helps with the rebuilding of Dalaran while waiting for news of Quel'Thalas
    - Hears her sister is alive and answers Kael'thas' call to return home to reclaim lands lost to the Scourge
    - She returns home and is happy to reunite with her sister
    - Talk of Silvermoon's leadership joining the Horde drives her away again due to her hatred of the Amani and by extension all trolls and their orcish allies
    - She joins the Silver Covenant to keep the Horde out of Dalaran
    - Helps SC forces claim Quel'Delar to keep it out of Horde hands, adamant it stays with Thalassians
    - stays in Dalaran until the purges, she's horrified by her comrades' actions and refuses to participate
    - she hears there is still a community of high elves living at Quel'Danil
    - joins them until the Legion invades when she pledges to the Unseen Path
    - delighted by Alleria's return, she seeks to join an old commander of the Farstriders
    - believes in Alleria's quest to bring Quel'Thalas into the Alliance eventually
    - chooses to take up study of the Void to protect Azeroth
    - resents Sylvanas dragging Quel'Thalas and Thalassians in the Alliance into another bloody war after the relative peace in the wake of Sargeras' defeat
    - helps efforts to track her down after the war
    - Shadowlands

    It's taken some time to map it all out but I'm quite happy with the motivations. She still loves Quel'Thalas, but can't return until it either severs ties with the orcs and trolls or rejoins the Alliance.
    Last edited by Thalassian Bob; 2020-12-09 at 06:50 PM.

  18. #22798
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    It's taken some time to map it all out but I'm quite happy with the motivations. She still loves Quel'Thalas, but can't return until it eithers severs ties with the orcs and trolls or rejoins the Alliance.
    Which is after all what Alleria wants. She loves her homeland, perhaps more than any other Thalassian. She spent 1.000 years away from home on distant worlds to protect her homeland. It's just that she believes the Horde is detrimental to Quel'Thalas (which it is, of course), and seeks to protect it in her own way.

  19. #22799
    Mechagnome Thalassian Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Which is after all what Alleria wants. She loves her homeland, perhaps more than any other Thalassian. She spent 1.000 years away from home on distant worlds to protect her homeland. It's just that she believes the Horde is detrimental to Quel'Thalas (which it is, of course), and seeks to protect it in her own way.
    I won't deny that Alleria still cares deeply for her homeland, but I feel like she was a bit too quick taking Vereesa's word as gospel on events since she left for Draenor (and beyond). Though, the Fourth War, through Sylvanas, probably helped vindicate a lot of what Alleria was probably told.

    With a romantic partner who is an Alliance hero and a son who was raised among humans and pro-Alliance high elves, it's easy to understand why Alleria might have more of an investment in the Alliance than others. I wonder though, if the Sunwell hadn't had such a violent reaction to her presence, she might have skirted the lines between the two factions a bit more...?

  20. #22800
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassian Bob View Post
    Agreed. I flit between different characters across the factions, but Quel'Thalas will always be my spiritual home in WoW.

    I think elves like those in the Silver Covenant are often as you describe, but I've got a void elf I'm playing at the moment and I'm musing on a backstory for her that allows her to be a patriot but still bat for the other team (while game mechanics demand it).

    Roughly so far, I'm thinking:

    - Farstrider who lost her husband in an Amani raid during the Second War
    - Couldn't remain in Quel'Thalas because everything reminded her of him (her sister is still there)
    - Decided to go to Dalaran to get away from it all and join the city's defences to distract herself
    - Third War happens, Quel'Thalas is decimated and Archimonde destroys Dalaran
    - She helps with the rebuilding of Dalaran while waiting for news of Quel'Thalas
    - Hears her sister is alive and answers Kael'thas' call to return home to reclaim lands lost to the Scourge
    - She returns home and is happy to reunite with her sister
    - Talk of Silvermoon's leadership joining the Horde drives her away again due to her hatred of the Amani and by extension all trolls and their orcish allies
    - She joins the Silver Covenant to keep the Horde out of Dalaran
    - Helps SC forces claim Quel'Delar to keep it out of Horde hands, adamant it stays with Thalassians
    - stays in Dalaran until the purges, she's horrified by her comrades' actions and refuses to participate
    - she hears there is still a community of high elves living at Quel'Danil
    - joins them until the Legion invades when she pledges to the Unseen Path
    - delighted by Alleria's return, she seeks to join an old commander of the Farstriders
    - believes in Alleria's quest to bring Quel'Thalas into the Alliance eventually
    - chooses to take up study of the Void to protect Azeroth
    - resents Sylvanas dragging Quel'Thalas and Thalassians in the Alliance into another bloody war after the relative peace in the wake of Sargeras' defeat
    - helps efforts to track her down after the war
    - Shadowlands

    It's taken some time to map it all out but I'm quite happy with the motivations. She still loves Quel'Thalas, but can't return until it either severs ties with the orcs and trolls or rejoins the Alliance.
    you see it, your character is stateless! an elf who puts her personal feelings before her homeland. someone who cannot, would rather see quelthalas die than accept that without the quelthalas horde he would have been lost or at least all ghostlands would be lost.
    That is the difference between someone who puts the good of the nation first, and someone who puts their personal feelings first.
    all lost someone the race is on the brink of extinction and quelthalas is destroyed, all are suffering but some prefer to stay to fight than to seek security in the alliance.

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