Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varodoc]

The Ren'dorei leader, Lady Alleria Windrunner, literally has blonde hair:

[Alanar]

Well, I only think blood elves deserve more then just being plain tolkien elves, mostly because their introduction to the game pictured them in pretty different way and current portrayal definitely does not fit well with the larger Horde flavor. I prefered them when they were reckless, whimsical and unforgiving. They are now basically pretty humans of the Horde, which is a shame.

I also think that you don't need to separate blood and void elves in full scale in order for each group have their own distinctive feature. Don't forget that void elves are kind of next step of blood elves, they will always be connected in some way. Kael's spirit in Revendreth recognizes void elves his people in the same way he does blood elves, and Zul'jins spirit shows the exact same contempt for them. You can definitel build void elves upon their thalassian ancestry and have their own story, different to blood elves. Their story may be centered around ties thalassians used to have with the Alliance in the past, rediscovering old friendships lost after Third War, as well as developing their homesickness and dreams of Quel'thalas being united (which will most likely not happen during WoW lifespan)... all of this is something blood elves are not involved in anymore, yet it was something which attracted high elf fans for years.

With void elves, we also have a chance to discover more of the Void, most likely it's not entirely evil side. I expect we will find out that Void is not ultimately evil force and Light is not purely source of good in the future. Void elves and lightbound are potential seeds for this plot. I guess blood elves will serve as Horde's closest connection to the forces of Light in the future.

Then that is great for the void elves to dive into that void story, I dont care for it, so when I roll a blood elf I dont play them for that and since the sunwell is quite the opposite so that will likekly not happen anyway unless the story changes drastically.

Those are just fun notes that blizz add, since they used to be blood elves I get it. It has nothing to do with future narratives unless they push that. So Sure they are connected, night elves and nightborne are also connected. Does it matter? Not realy , they are perfectly fine with their own story.

Blood elves need more , but like I said, I would love to see how they are currently doing. With an updated silvermoon, dock and stories in quel' thalas etc. Void elves could be part of it sure.. but only to see how they are truly on a differnt path and exile. I mean.. we dont need the void elves to continue their story. Maybe it would even give some closure for void elves, so silvermoon is truly just not their home anymore. I would dig that, carve your own path.

I would like to kael get a story with silvermoon or current leader of silvermoon , I would like kael to focus on the blood elves who HE renamed and have some cool clash there.( he might stay or leave shadowlands, but it would be a waste to finnaly get the guy back and let him not interact with silvermoon or the blood elves. Give him a chance to explain hes sins to lorte mar for example. With that said, even of it doesnt happen and prince renethal dies for some reason and kael is the only person to do it(blizz smile) then I am perfectly fine being some vampire prince. Even better.

Connected doesnt mean we need them, remember that, they got kicked out for a reason.

[ravenmoon]

Well, I only think blood elves deserve more then just being plain tolkien elves, mostly because their introduction to the game pictured them in pretty different way and current portrayal definitely does not fit well with the larger Horde flavor. I prefered them when they were reckless, whimsical and unforgiving. They are now basically pretty humans of the Horde, which is a shame.

Exactly, the whole kick about blood elves at first was a deviation from the Tolkein high elf set the high elves are modelled on, but then they veered away from that back to the high elf portrayal.


It's naïve of some of the horde fans fighting my analysis to think that the blood elves as they are right now aren't essentially high elves modelled after the alliance themed race and civilziation.

They refuse to see the obvious, that when blizzard made the blood elves available on the horde, they were making the high elves playable, they wanted the alliance race on the horde, to lure alliance players over, this is why they stopped evolving the blood elves into something different, and instead started recovering a lot of their high elven identity, which is very alliance themed.

I also think that you don't need to separate blood and void elves in full scale in order for each group have their own distinctive feature. Don't forget that void elves are kind of next step of blood elves, they will always be connected in some way. Kael's spirit in Revendreth recognizes void elves his people in the same way he does blood elves, and Zul'jins spirit shows the exact same contempt for them. You can definitel build void elves upon their thalassian ancestry and have their own story, different to blood elves. Their story may be centered around ties thalassians used to have with the Alliance in the past, rediscovering old friendships lost after Third War, as well as developing their homesickness and dreams of Quel'thalas being united (which will most likely not happen during WoW lifespan)... all of this is something blood elves are not involved in anymore, yet it was something which attracted high elf fans for years.

With void elves, we also have a chance to discover more of the Void, most likely it's not entirely evil side. I expect we will find out that Void is not ultimately evil force and Light is not purely source of good in the future. Void elves and lightbound are potential seeds for this plot. I guess blood elves will serve as Horde's closest connection to the forces of Light in the future.

It makes sense to build void elves on their Thalassian ancestry, blizzard has given the void elves the high elven nobility and character, you only need to click on Umbric and listen to what he says in BFA on the alliance boat, follow the story and comments of the void elves to see that this is the intention of the group.

Whether this is to substitute void elves for high elves as the playable Thalassians on the alliance or some other purpose, this is what blizzard went with.

And it shouldn't surprise us anyway, the high elf heritage is alliance themed through and through.. What people have wanted is the high elf playable on the alliance again anyway, because alliance players love that shit.

Sure they appreciate variations like void elves and night elves, whether dark elf night elves or forest elf night elves - they love hat too - but that Tolkeinesque theme that horde elf fans seem to hate, the alliance loves, and it's funny how the horde elf crowd for all their disdain for the Tolkein trope, seem to be blind that their beloved horde elves have been made more and more like them.

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Blood elves need more , but like I said, I would love to see how they are currently doing. With an updated silvermoon, dock and stories in quel' thalas etc. Void elves could be part of it sure.. but only to see how they are truly on a differnt path and exile. I mean.. we dont need the void elves to continue their story.

I would like to kael get a story with silvermoon or current leader of silvermoon , I would like kael to focus on the blood elves who HE renamed and have some cool clash there.( he might stay or leave shadowlands, but it would be a waste to finnaly get the guy back and let him not interact with silvermoon or the blood elves. Give him a chance to explain hes sins to lorte mar for example.

Connected doesnt mean we need them, remember that, they got kicked out for a reason.

I would love blood elves to go a very different direction from high elves. I feel that they should leave or lose Silvermoon , Quel'thalas and everything related to that.

Netherstorm and the Outland was a perfect destination and stronghold for the new revitalised blood elves.. but they ditched that. The reason they should lose all things high elven is because that's far too alliance, and I don't think that having alliance themed elven races with alliance type civilizations and characters should be on the horde.

SO in order to change that, Blood elves and Nightborne must become something unrelated and different from their high elven and Night elven roots. And that aspect of them should return back tot he alliance while they become something different.

Now that different should be interesting, and can be majestic.

[Alanar]

The Ren'dorei leader, Lady Alleria Windrunner, literally has blonde hair:

I cant look.like nightborne leader, I cant look like lortemar etc etc.

Racial leader are different, and look at some off the suggestions above you. They are atleast fair. You keep repeating the same stuff and its clear we dont need blood elves 2.0.

[Vaedan]

Then that is great for the void elves to dive into that void story, I dont care for it, so when I roll a blood elf I dont play them for that and since the sunwell is quite the opposite so that will likekly not happen anyway unless the story changes drastically.

Those are just fun notes that blizz add, since they used to be blood elves I get it. It has nothing to do with future narratives unless they push that. So Sure they are connected, night elves and nightborne are also connected. Does it matter? Not realy , they are perfectly fine with their own story.

Blood elves need more , but like I said, I would love to see how they are currently doing. With an updated silvermoon, dock and stories in quel' thalas etc. Void elves could be part of it sure.. but only to see how they are truly on a differnt path and exile. I mean.. we dont need the void elves to continue their story. Maybe it would even give some closure for void elves, so silvermoon is truly just not their home anymore. I would dig that, carve your own path.

I would like to kael get a story with silvermoon or current leader of silvermoon , I would like kael to focus on the blood elves who HE renamed and have some cool clash there.( he might stay or leave shadowlands, but it would be a waste to finnaly get the guy back and let him not interact with silvermoon or the blood elves. Give him a chance to explain hes sins to lorte mar for example. With that said, even of it doesnt happen and prince renethal dies for some reason and kael is the only person to do it(blizz smile) then I am perfectly fine being some vampire prince. Even better.

Connected doesnt mean we need them, remember that, they got kicked out for a reason.

Of course blood elf narrative does not really need void elves, and vice versa. After void elves were announced, I expected to replace Silver Covenant high elves as a foil to blood elves in future events, but we did really have a potential for that, so that may come in the future. That being said, void elves can have some cameos in the story of Quel'thalas in the future. In the same way, void elves don't really need Quel'thalas anymore, but including them in a limited way into the future of Quel'thalas does not seem to be bad idea either. I agree with you that right now, void elves shall find their own way and define themselves.

I think we may see some dialogues or other limited interactions with whatever blood elf/high/void elf character manage to go through veil and Kael, but I don't expect anything huge. Kael may have his name redeemed in the eyes of his people, so Sunstriders will not be such a shame for elves anymore. What I'd like to see even more is reunion of Kael and Anasterian.

Exactly, the whole kick about blood elves at first was a deviation from the Tolkein high elf set the high elves are modelled on, but then they veered away from that back to the high elf portrayal.


It's naïve of some of the horde fans fighting my analysis to think that the blood elves as they are right now aren't essentially high elves modelled after the alliance themed race and civilziation.

They refuse to see the obvious, that when blizzard made the blood elves available on the horde, they were making the high elves playable, they wanted the alliance race on the horde, to lure alliance players over, this is why they stopped evolving the blood elves into something different, and instead started recovering a lot of their high elven identity, which is very alliance themed.

Blizzard tried hard to assimilate blood elves into the Horde and their introduction in TBC is pretty solid proof. I accepted blood elves in the Horde long ago. What I don't like is how they are being portrayed lately. They lost their appeal which made them acceptable choice for the Horde. You can actually see horde fans criticize Blizz for turning Horde into "Red Alliance", which is absolutely justified concern, but unfortunately, that is a process which started long ago and blood elves helped that in their own way.

It makes sense to build void elves on their Thalassian ancestry, blizzard has given the void elves the high elven nobility and character, you only need to click on Umbric and listen to what he says in BFA on the alliance boat, follow the story and comments of the void elves to see that this is the intention of the group.

Whether this is to substitute void elves for high elves as the playable Thalassians on the alliance or some other purpose, this is what blizzard went with.

And it shouldn't surprise us anyway, the high elf heritage is alliance themed through and through.. What people have wanted is the high elf playable on the alliance again anyway, because alliance players love that shit.

Being proud of their Thalassian ancestry does not really mean they need to be connected to Quel'thalas. Quel'dorei who founded Quel'thalas were also exiles who wanted to forge their own way in the world.

Possible ren'dorei story:
Void elves are given opportunity to move into Duskwood, which has been destabilized in Legion. They take over abandoned Darkshire and rebuild it in thalassian fashion, but with their own shadowy twist. They call their this settlement New Silvermoon. On Raven's Hill Cemetery, ren'dorei found potent rifts of the Void, probably opened by Natalie Seline herself, which seep Void to the land and taint it with the shadow. Void Elf magisters build modified arcane sanctums which helps to contain these void energies and allows them to channel them. They expand into Deadwind Pass and turn their eyes toward mysterious Karazhan and secrets hidden in the tower. Grateful to the Crown of Stormwind for territory they were given, void and high elves now safeguard boarders of Duskwood and Deadwind pass from troll threat of Strangethorn Vale and Horde presence in Swamp of Sorrows.

In this version, void elves find new focus, new goals, but they still don't forget their homeland. They just don't need to be part of it anymore. They have their new home now.

I would love blood elves to go a very different direction from high elves. I feel that they should leave or lose Silvermoon , Quel'thalas and everything related to that.

Netherstorm and the Outland was a perfect destination and stronghold for the new revitalised blood elves.. but they ditched that. The reason they should lose all things high elven is because that's far too alliance, and I don't think that having alliance themed elven races with alliance type civilizations and characters should be on the horde.

SO in order to change that, Blood elves and Nightborne must become something unrelated and different from their high elven and Night elven roots. And that aspect of them should return back tot he alliance while they become something different.

Now that different should be interesting, and can be majestic.

Blood elves should not leave Silvermoon. They thought really hard to restore their kingdom, they deserve to keep it. If anything, the most logical way for Silvermoon is to become neutral, which would still allow Horde presence here. It is highly unlikely though and to be honest, I'm not that much interested in Silvermoon anymore, as long as void elves get their own place and their own narrative focus. Both blood and void elves belong to the Azeroth, so I would not like blood elves being kicked out to Netherstorm, or void elves dwelling in Telogrus for all eternity.

If there would be a change in the way how blood elves are portrayed to bring them closer to the Horde, then Silvermoon should change as well to reflect that... but it better stay in the hands of its people.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

If there would be a change in the way how blood elves are portrayed to bring them closer to the Horde, then Silvermoon should change as well to reflect that... but it better stay in the hands of its people.

I know you are trying to be generous with Ravenmoon, but I don't think that you can have a productive discussion with someone that wants to outright remove what they deem an elven identity from Blood Elves and Nightborne because elven identity and culture"belong to the alliance."

It's just such an insidious to outright say that Blood Elves don't deserve to be elves, it's just so weird.

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I cant look.like nightborne leader, I cant look like lortemar etc etc.

Racial leader are different, and look at some off the suggestions above you. They are atleast fair. You keep repeating the same stuff and its clear we dont need blood elves 2.0.

Not to agree with Varodoc on much beyond this, but it IS weird that we can't look like Alleria. And it's both about because Racial Leaders should be a representation of their races -and only Sylvanas was the exception to this, and it was relevant- And because it's still silly that of all the things, hair colors is what can't overlap.

We can look like Thalyssra and Lor'themar, what we don't have is their specific "styling" but the rest of their "base" appearance, skin color, eye color, hair color, all that is *part* of the playable races options. The problem with Alleria is that skin and eye color follow this logic, but not hair color, and there's no reason for it.

Like we have to admit there's an overlap between Void Elves and Blood Elves, as much as there was one between High Elves and Blood Elves, and while I do believe the lack of something close to Alleria's hair color makes no sense, I also believe there can be differentiation between VE and BE beyond those three phenotype characteristics.

That's where hairstyles and markings and jewelry matter, to showcase divergence not through biology, but culture.

And yet, I don't think VE need to have the same hair colors than BE's. They really could get more "ashy" "desaturated" or even "voided" shades of more natural hair colors.

And TBH, if Alleria's hair color itself was changed, I think that would be enough. If they literally said "yeah, using Void desaturates your hair" it would be just new lore lol. Still, I'd hope for more hair colors on VE's regardless, like Alleria's void form hair color.

In terms of styling, I still think that VE's could pattern themselves more to Alleria -Their Leader- and use more braids, war paint and feathers. Now I know some BE players also want those stuff and that's great, I really don't mind if VE and BE have an overlap, but would people like you be okay with that, or would you say that the styling that we only see in Alleria -Leader of the Void Elves- should belong exclusively to the Blood Elves instead?

Or you'd rather BE's get their own unique styling -such as Rommath like tattoos, scarification, etc?-

[ravenmoon]

Blizzard tried hard to assimilate blood elves into the Horde and their introduction in TBC is pretty solid proof. I accepted blood elves in the Horde long ago. What I don't like is how they are being portrayed lately. They lost their appeal which made them acceptable choice for the Horde. You can actually see horde fans criticize Blizz for turning Horde into "Red Alliance", which is absolutely justified concern, but unfortunately, that is a process which started long ago and blood elves helped that in their own way.

I know, which is why it's amusing that when I point out to them that they are red alliance, all of a sudden the very people pointing it out are now denying it, showing me that they are only interested in being contrary or arguing against what they perceive the enemy is.

I too accepted blood elves in the horde long ago, and accept them there now, I don't think it's a good idea for them to be there in this very high elven capacity/format/way of life and civilization for many reason, but I accept it, I don't dislike it either - but I do agree blood elves would have been more interesting in the original vision/direction they seemed to be going at the end of TFT, the direction they took with Kael'thas - minus the whole joining the legion, they could have been anti-hero badasses like Illidan and the Illidari - divorced from Silvermoon and the high lifestyle of their former high elven identity, settling in a new land, and in a sense a new identity, style everything, leaving Silvermoon to the high elves to recover (whenever blizzard decided they wanted to bring that back).

Now obviously blizzard didn't do that, I loved being able to play the blood elves - i.e. the high elves, so I can't say I hated it, but I always felt there were better choices and options and freely acknowledge that the decision to use an alliance race, ie. the high elves, but the renamed portion of them, was a very effective one and did the job the best, also with the highest chance of success of equalising the factions. (even though it did more than that, tipping and tilting things further down the horde route)

And I say this again, that restoring that stuff to the alliance - i.e. the high elves, their kingdom, as well as the kaldorei civilization in Suramar and most of it's populace - i.e. the alliance elements of the blood elves and Nightborne, would be the most effective way of fixing the alliance number problems and balancing the factions back to that original core dichotomy they seem to be so proud of and keep insisting this is the core and heart of Warcraft they want to preserve, yet are undermining by keeping the blood elves so high elven and the Nightborne in a 100% kaldorei civilization capacity.

I still say the blood elves of Silvermoon should return to being high elves with their land - and shift back to the alliance, and the remnant blood elves develop into something new - maybe the version the blood elves were going to be after TFT - anti-hero types - the Illidari model seems a good one, but it isn't the only option, San'layn are a direction that is plausible too, they are basically to the high elves what the forsaken are to the humans, and can have their own cool unique additional features like a vampire feature - that's really cool but optional to use unlike the worgen - giving blood elf players the ability to morph their blood elves into vampires if they want or maintain their pretty faces - even if their culture and character divulge completely away from the high elves at last.

Similar treatment for the Nightborne, although what they do with them would be a different story. while blood elves in Quel'thalas can choose to become high elves, Nightborne, while Highborne in character, are not night elven in appearance, but thankfully the Arcan'dor is a plausible mechanism to restore their Night elven form which would allot hem to be pre-disposed alliance. And those who don't want to follow the majority of the city? or cause trouble and maybe bring back Elisande believing power and dominion in the direction she was going and the Naga went - would certainly divulge them from the original kaldorei nobility of Thalyssra and the Nightfallen which is very Farondis like and very kaldorei empire glory days of grace before the Highborne fell to arrogance and addiction. You see the naga quite nicely show an evolution of the kaldorei civilization when they deviated from their noble and benevolent (and very alliance) foundation that their empire was established upon and thrived on in its early stages. The Naga are the development of how they can become very different from who they were, yet still have elements of beauty, magical talent and power.

The Nightborne don't have to change appearance, as their appearance is already different from the night elves, so don't need any extra customisations like vampire forms to distinguish them, but they could do - while they don't have to become monstrous like the naga, they could develop in ways or altered by time, maybe int heir story, the remnant Nightborne get met by evolved Nightborne who got displaced in a time bubble by Elisande and developed new features and mastery, their numbers increase when Elisande guides this group back out of time phase, and sides with them on the horde.. Their philosophy continues that of the city Nightborne loyalists we saw in 7.0, they have new styles (no longer Suramar or kaldorei civilization) but like the Naga's architecture would have some degree of resemblance while being different enough. Players can choose to be their existing Nightborne models or the new customisations the chrono enhanced Nightborne bring with them.

I mean this is not the only way they can alter the Nightborne that stay on the horde away from those in the kaldorei empire vein that will re-join the alliance and revert to their night elf forms, but it's one. they could do many interesting things. And should

But if they don't, so what, we'll continue playing, I think wow would be lesser for not making those changes, and I believe the are the most effective way of doing it, but they don't have to and might not, and if they don't, I'd just keep playing as is. They are not obligated to do better or do the best if they don't want to, they have to choose to want to take their game further.. in TBC they were motivated to, because the game was new and ascending, 8 expansions later, that desire and enthusiasm might no longer be there, in which case we'll just wait for the slow but inevitable demise and the lack of interest in tackling deeper and bigger systemic issues like this.

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Being proud of their Thalassian ancestry does not really mean they need to be connected to Quel'thalas. Quel'dorei who founded Quel'thalas were also exiles who wanted to forge their own way in the world.

Possible ren'dorei story:
Void elves are given opportunity to move into Duskwood, which has been destabilized in Legion. They take over abandoned Darkshire and rebuild it in thalassian fashion, but with their own shadowy twist. They call their this settlement New Silvermoon. On Raven's Hill Cemetery, ren'dorei found potent rifts of the Void, probably opened by Natalie Seline herself, which seep Void to the land and taint it with the shadow. Void Elf magisters build modified arcane sanctums which helps to contain these void energies and allows them to channel them. They expand into Deadwind Pass and turn their eyes toward mysterious Karazhan and secrets hidden in the tower. Grateful to the Crown of Stormwind for territory they were given, void and high elves now safeguard boarders of Duskwood and Deadwind pass from troll threat of Strangethorn Vale and Horde presence in Swamp of Sorrows.

In this version, void elves find new focus, new goals, but they still don't forget their homeland. They just don't need to be part of it anymore. They have their new home now.

True, that could work very well. I'd have them in the badlands instead though. Alternatives could also include Stormheim. Ofc if the high elves return to the alliance, the void elves could always have Voidholme (Deatholme remodelled) and the Ghostlands becoming the void lands where they have a protective void watch over the region of Quel'thalas to protect the Sunwell from void incursions, but sufficiently far away from the Sunwell physically so as not to cause any destabilising effect).

They have so many options. Voidstar city would be a good name fr their new city, I quite fancy the void elves going larger on the deep space, void space theme, it has a symmetry to the kaldorei's star theme - especially if the Highborne get developed and the Nightborne return to the kaldorei as night elves healed by the Arcan'dor - a silver star themed group of Highborne friends with the void star themed void elves could be an interesting development and interaction. Ofc void elves can have links also to the priesthood of Elune's Black moon sect, it's shadow pain mistresses, and even have some ties to their druids especially if they work with druids to protect the Emerald dream and/or remove the void influences where possible.

there is so much room fro growth and collaboration.

The way I see it, the high elves could develop into that friends of humanity role they largely play, while the void elves could be the branch that explores a more unique interaction both with a new force like the void and with the kaldorei, leaving the high elves and humans to mainly interact. but void elves would have human interaction off course, but then Alleria could be come a high elf and void elf leader spending her time between the high elves, void elves and humans, nothing to say each alliance race won't have representation in Stormwind though they have homes elsewhere. I don't see Alleria sitting and ruling in Silvermoon or Voidstar city she'd be more into pushing frontiers going on dangerous missions and involved in Alliance leadership as a representative of her race rather than actually leading her race. It's likely a Sunstrider heir or a high elven Halduron or High elven Lor'themar would lead the High elves, while Umbric would lead the Void elves and a new title in alliance leadership for Alleria as the Thalassian representative.

I love thinking of possibilities and imagining what they could do.

Blood elves should not leave Silvermoon. They thought really hard to restore their kingdom, they deserve to keep it. If anything, the most logical way for Silvermoon is to become neutral, which would still allow Horde presence here. It is highly unlikely though and to be honest, I'm not that much interested in Silvermoon anymore, as long as void elves get their own place and their own narrative focus. Both blood and void elves belong to the Azeroth, so I would not like blood elves being kicked out to Netherstorm, or void elves dwelling in Telogrus for all eternity.

If there would be a change in the way how blood elves are portrayed to bring them closer to the Horde, then Silvermoon should change as well to reflect that... but it better stay in the hands of its people.

Well, I agree with you , the way it happens is that the blood elves in Silvermoon decide to end their mourning and return to being high elves. Part of this is triggered by their decision to not want to be in the horde at all. After Garrosh then Sylvanas, the actions against Teldrassil, the general character, direction of the horde, it really isn't them, then ofc Alleria's constant efforts to bring her people back together under the Alliance banner - constant courtship from humans, then Highborne on the alliance side, Draenei - and just generally feeling more in common and more likeness with the opposing faction without needing to remain, it happens naturally.

These ones aren't giving up anything, they're just giving up on the horde and choosing to call themselves high elves again. The way they see it, Sin'dorei was a mourning period, there is new hope for their people, and people like Alleria and others remind them more of that - it also helps that the horde actions are still very much against their mentality and ideology.

this is very easy because blizzard has kept them very high elven - and this is what makes it so plausible and easy . If they had been converted to the more bad boy ruthless anti-hero blood elves, that would have been hard to swallow.

Not every blood elf choose to return to being high elves, just those in Silvermoon and Quel'thalas living in high society. there are blood elves, like Lorash who hate races like the Night elves, and those who resent humanity and have developed a blood thirst and savagery for killing similar to the horde races, but these don't say in Silvermoon or Quel'thalas, and are often found in horde campaigns complicit with the actions, ofc when news comes of Quel'thalas' change, they don't go along with it.

It also helps that the very forsaken and Sylvanas who had helped them turned really really bad, but then, blizzard could now reveal all the misgivings most of the Quel'thalas populace had about the undead, afterall, it was not flesh and blood humans that destroyed Quel'thalas in WC3, but undead ones, this was always going to be harder to swallow than working with humans like Anduin who seem to really want them back.


Look I'm not saying this is what they'll do or anything like that, but it's like the story already has itself written, it's easy to see this happen.

I'm not that much interested in Silvermoon anymore, as long as void elves get their own place and their own narrative focus.

You may not be interested in Silvermoon, I'm not interested in high elves, I quite like void elves because they give me something different, but none of this changes the fact that many alliance players are interested in both high elves and Silvermoon and none of this changes my opinion that this move would be very good for the alliance and boost its numbers as well as balance out the horde and alliance thematically as well as player number wise. It would be healthy for the game all around.

My haters really don't understand me and don't understand my motives, they have oversimplified my motivations, and generalised me, and just switched off their brains from considering this because of their disdain. I can't do anything about that. I'll just state my points and everyone is free to agree or disagree for their reasons, but they shouldn't get offended if they fail to persuade me because their arguments aren't convincing enough.

If there would be a change in the way how blood elves are portrayed to bring them closer to the Horde, then Silvermoon should change as well to reflect that... but it better stay in the hands of its people

Yes, Silvermoon changing to reflect that would be an acceptable option, but I think overall it would serve the alliance better if Silvermoon went alliance, and the blood elves that didn't return to high elves later on build something new somewhere else that's very different. Netherstorm in Outland would have been perfect - but they could do the same in Azshara zone on Kalimdor or Bloodmyst isles.

Both blood and void elves belong to the Azeroth, so I would not like blood elves being kicked out to Netherstorm, or void elves dwelling in Telogrus for all eternity.

Believe it or not, I would have the new blood elves dominate Azshara, control Bloodmyst/Azuremyst and dominate Netherstorm and half or hellfire peninsular - I'd have them in both, they can become powerful and very different from how they are now.

what these hordies may not realise, is that because the blood elves are so alliance themed atm, as essentially high elves it is making it very hard for them to play major roles or stronger roles in the horde story, because their dominance or further influence would just swallow up the main horde theme. in order to fixt that you need blodo elves being less high elven/alliance and become something that is much closer and relatable to the horde even if they look different and they are more advanced/fancy in their architecture, but they should not feel high elven and thus not feel alliancey.. This is imperative - it will be good for their advancement and development and for the horde and for the alliance (for the alliance because it allows the high elves to be re-established)

And the re-establishment of the high elves would be good - i think it would facilitate a boost in all alliance elves - better writing and better presentation - high elves, void elves, night elves and Highborne night elves would get significant developments given their popularity - and this would boost alliance numbers enough. Elves need to shine on the alliance, and all things high elven, night elven (Highborne or not)

[Ardenaso]

Sylvanas was the exception to this, and it was relevant- And because it's still silly that of all the things, hair colors is what can't overlap.

Forsaken being any free willed undead has been long overdue; I wanted a Dark Ranger for so long

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

And I say this again, that restoring that stuff to the alliance - i.e. the high elves, their kingdom, as well as the kaldorei civilization in Suramar and most of it's populace - i.e. the alliance elements of the blood elves and Nightborne, would be the most effective way of fixing the alliance number problems and balancing the factions back to that original core dichotomy they seem to be so proud of and keep insisting this is the core and heart of Warcraft they want to preserve, yet are undermining by keeping the blood elves so high elven and the Nightborne in a 100% kaldorei civilization capacity.

I still say the blood elves of Silvermoon should return to being high elves with their land - and shift back to the alliance, and the remnant blood elves develop into something new - maybe the version the blood elves were going to be after TFT - anti-hero types - the Illidari model seems a good one, but it isn't the only option, San'layn are a direction that is plausible too, they are basically to the high elves what the forsaken are to the humans, and can have their own cool unique additional features like a vampire feature - that's really cool but optional to use unlike the worgen - giving blood elf players the ability to morph their blood elves into vampires if they want or maintain their pretty faces - even if their culture and character divulge completely away from the high elves at last.

My haters really don't understand me and don't understand my motives, they have oversimplified my motivations, and generalised me, and just switched off their brains from considering this because of their disdain. I can't do anything about that. I'll just state my points and everyone is free to agree or disagree for their reasons, but they shouldn't get offended if they fail to persuade me because their arguments aren't convincing enough.

-You want to expropriate the Blood Elves and Nightborne of their zones and identity because those "belong to the alliance".
-You claim this will fix the alliance numbers and restore the thematic dichotomy.

It's not just that this might be the downright most tone deaf idea that I have ever seen -I Am sure Blood Elves and Nightborne players at large would just looooooove this, only because you *think* it will balance the factions. The utter disregard you have for what BE and NB players would have to say about this is hilarious; you are not asking to share, you literally want to take away their identity. No hyperbole needed.

But what it's most hilarious, is that the Highborne Civilization that you oh so desire, and that lives through the Nightborne and Suramar, has never been Alliance. Is that why you started with the "elves are thematically alliance" nonsense? To attempt to give your argument something to stand on, because Suramar was never Alliance?

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Forsaken being any free willed undead has been long overdue; I wanted a Dark Ranger for so long

I mean if Forsaken could be playable as elves -as they are in canon- even more so VE should be able to look like Alleria; the whole point being that the leaders are actually members of those factions, even if not part of the majority; Sylvanas, Jaina and Alleria mostly.

[Tanaria]

What eludes me is that if Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei go to the Alliance, then they are simply "Humans and Pals."

That's the problem with the Alliance story. If you tone down the Humans and elevate the other races around them, the Alliance can become interesting.

Ravenmoon doesn't seem to want to admit that the problems with the Alliance story lies with the over-emphasis of one alliance race. The Horde is diverse so Blizzard has a wider ranger of story to play with. Thus far, the Alliance races, besides the Humans, are just mindless drones going "Yes Humans, No Humans, 3 bags full Humans."

[Beloren]

Too right about all of this guys

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-You want to expropriate the Blood Elves and Nightborne of their zones and identity because those "belong to the alliance".
-You claim this will fix the alliance numbers and restore the thematic dichotomy.

It's not just that this might be the downright most tone deaf idea that I have ever seen -I Am sure Blood Elves and Nightborne players at large would just looooooove this, only because you *think* it will balance the factions. The utter disregard you have for what BE and NB players would have to say about this is hilarious; you are not asking to share, you literally want to take away their identity. No hyperbole needed.

But what it's most hilarious, is that the Highborne Civilization that you oh so desire, and that lives through the Nightborne and Suramar, has never been Alliance. Is that why you started with the "elves are thematically alliance" nonsense? To attempt to give your argument something to stand on, because Suramar was never Alliance?

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I mean if Forsaken could be playable as elves -as they are in canon- even more so VE should be able to look like Alleria; the whole point being that the leaders are actually members of those factions, even if not part of the majority; Sylvanas, Jaina and Alleria mostly.

Forsaken are exactly what Ravenmoon feels the blood elves shoudl become.. or rather that sort of directional change - distinct, enough to belong to a different faction

Because blood elves are very high elven - the problem is that I am fine with high elves being on the horde.

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What eludes me is that if Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei go to the Alliance, then they are simply "Humans and Pals."

That's the problem with the Alliance story. If you tone down the Humans and elevate the other races around them, the Alliance can become interesting.

Ravenmoon doesn't seem to want to admit that the problems with the Alliance story lies with the over-emphasis of one alliance race. The Horde is diverse so Blizzard has a wider ranger of story to play with. Thus far, the Alliance races, besides the Humans, are just mindless drones going "Yes Humans, No Humans, 3 bags full Humans."

Because alliance people love humans and pals - it's the Tolkein gold standard that a large chunk of fantasy players like. Those who play alliance tend to be of that ilk. It is highly popular which is why the blood elves going horde was such a success. And is why the alliance want the high elves playable and established back and aren't satisfied with night elves or other elven incarnations like void elves.

Their argument is because the high elves were an alliance race and core - and that this is core to warcraft alliance - because blizzard made it so.

they are 100% right it is, but they have to recognise that blizzard has every right to change this core, and they did. It might be a contradiction for them to harp on about restoring the core and not change the blood elves on the horde - but it's their contradiction to make - and you'd have many a horde elf fan relived and happy they do not - even if it would increase alliance numbers and restore the original dichotomy.

the question we must ask is if it's that essential to restore the original dichtomy. Ravenmoon feels so in order to keep the core of Warcraft robust and authentic, he may be right, but I question whether that is the direction for the franchise since it's been 14 years since the blood elves and things aren't that bad. Surely they SHOULDN'T be trying to hearken back to the core. And if this gets to mean we keep the high elven civilization, then I'm okay with that.

Sure things might be better if they go Ravenmoon's way, but there isn't any real guarantee, it would be another upheaval, and another different state.. and while if they do it we will undoubtedly have to accept it, why not instead continue in the direction they have been going and blur the lines of the faction further for races that people are tugging at. Do the Elves, Goblins, Draenei and even Forsaken need to be exclusively tethered to one of the factions? What's so wrong with the Pandaren treatment extending to those races, and consolidating the core of the franchises Horde and alliance to primarily Humans and Orcs with Dwarves/Gnomes and Trolls/Tauren their thematic sidekicks - while the rest are a bit more open?

[ravenmoon]

-You want to expropriate the Blood Elves and Nightborne of their zones and identity because those "belong to the alliance".
-You claim this will fix the alliance numbers and restore the thematic dichotomy.

Yes I do. And I think it would actually work well for everyone. I think it's the best way of restoring alliance numbers, fixing the imbalance in theme that has developed - IF blizzard want to restore the so called "core" of Warcraft based on the horde and alliance like they've been professing to do.


I have not been a fan of this from day one, I wanted there to be four factions even 5 coming off of WC3 - i felt going back to the two was a step backward. But that's what they did and I had no choice but to accept, the game is still playable anyway, even though I felt the story and progression/potential was diminished.


The way they handled it form then on, after classic hurt the alliance and its races the most, particularly the night elves whom i felt had a grand vision, which was suppressed to buff the horde. Now improving the horde I felt was necessary because the factional imbalance in the original classic was unacceptable. Using an alliance race to do it was smart, but would not have been my choice, I feel they should created a new unique race and made it really attractive, but the alliance loving crowd craved for high elves the most, so they gave the horde that, and the prettiest and best version they could imagine so that it would attract those excessive players over.


It worked. I applauded it, despite not liking the choice. I since then moved to supporting a cross faction or reduced faction influence, and this is still my preferred option btw. I think factions atm are meaningless, and I believe that one of the reasons this has occurred is because the blood elves are on the horde as high elves which is very alliance centric - essentially having part of the alliance, and the best version of it if I might add on the horde. Whiles this is okay if you want to re-imagine what the factions are homogenise them a bit etc, it isn't if you want that Warcraft core restored. If you keep on going that way, then Beloren's suggestion of reducing the meaning of faction or the restricting the dichotomy only to the key races like humans/dwarves and orcs/trolls is probably how you should go.


Look there are options they could use, but if they want to restore this Warcraft core and improve alliance numbers, the high elves returning and restoring the night elven civilization exclusively to the alliance is the fastest and best way to do it. This move will result in horde core races being developed to fill the gap left by those two civilizations going and make horde fans feel they haven't lost anything overall just had a re-arrangement of sorts. And gives them the opportunity to do something more different with the blood elves and Nightborne that must remain on the horde as these races will continue to be playable.


This is the most realistic scenario to result if they follow through.

It's not just that this might be the downright most tone deaf idea that I have ever seen -I Am sure Blood Elves and Nightborne players at large would just looooooove this, only because you *think* it will balance the factions. The utter disregard you have for what BE and NB players would have to say about this is hilarious; you are not asking to share, you literally want to take away their identity. No hyperbole needed.


But what it's most hilarious, is that the Highborne Civilization that you oh so desire, and that lives through the Nightborne and Suramar, has never been Alliance. Is that why you started with the "elves are thematically alliance" nonsense? To attempt to give your argument something to stand on, because Suramar was never Alliance?

Your disdain and contempt aside - they would simply face a less extreme version of what alliance fans faced when the blood elves then Nightborne, both alliance based races and sub-races became available - but less extreme becuase in the first instance there was no basis for an alliance race going to the horde or an alliance race's sub-race doing so.


And in the reverse, there is less justification for antagonising because all are fully aware the blood elves are an alliance themed race and theNgihtborne are a night elf sub-race so if those civilizations that are entirely high elf and night elven centred go to the alliance, it's no surprise. They may not like it at first, but they have less of a reason to complain or hate it like their alliance counterparts did.


Still, I'm sure some people will be upset, but they'll also get use to it , and will switch back to the alliance to follow those things, just like alliance players switched to the horde when blood elves became available and later Nightborne - whiles others were annoyed, even some of them who switched were, they gave up on being angry because it was kinda pointless and followed the fantasy they like i.e. the high elf and kaldorei empire fantasy to where they went.


My prediction is they would follow it back.


The horde won't lose all the blood elf or Nightborne crowd just because they lose Silvermoon/Quel'thlaas and Suramar and most of it's NPC population to the alliance, just like the alliance didn't lose all it's elven followers when Teldrassil got burned down or when the night elf sub race, the nightborne went horde nor when the blood elves went horde.


This is just the reality. In fact I reckon or estimate about 2/3 or 3/4 of the blood elf population don't give a rats ass whether Quel'thalas and it's NPC population return to being high elves and the alliance. They play blood elves for the way their toon looks/xmog or racials and as long as the model is playable couldn't care less.


We don't want all the horde moving over, but 1/3 or 1/4 of the blood elf and Nightborne population moving back to the alliance would be just the tipping point needed to galvanise an alliance resurgence and put players back on the faction.


Unlike TBC - WoD , that favoured the horde heavily and relentlessly across the board in every instance over the alliance.. the same extremeity would not be necessary, while the alliance will need favour in the presentation and story momentarily, as longa s the horde isn't stupidly repressed like the allinace was, I think most players would be fine and just enough migrate.

But what it's most hilarious, is that the Highborne Civilization that you oh so desire, and that lives through the Nightborne and Suramar, has never been Alliance. Is that why you started with the "elves are thematically alliance" nonsense? To attempt to give your argument something to stand on, because Suramar was never Alliance?

What is hlairious is your attempt to slight and sneer what I'm saying. I already have the Highborne civilization - it's in the game and playable - this is not about me having something or not having it. This is about fixing the imbalance of numbers and effectively boosting the alliance and my opinion on what will do it best.


You are quoting my response to Varadoc but failing to read everything. You would note I don't care to play high elves really now that I have void elves (not altered one of my void elves and I explain why in my response to him), and desiring Silvermoon and Suramar for the alliance- I may have done in the past or seemed that way a lot more than I actually was because I have argued for it going to the alliance.. but you fail to recognise I have played horde since TBC as well because of the blood elves - but still feel it is better for this race to be primarily on the alliance.
You also failed to note that if they did nothing, I would still be okay - because I have these races available anyway, and I play both factions. I'm looking far beyond satisfying my fancies, there is a logic and reason for me taking this stance here.


But my personal cares or lack thereof for high elves and Silvermoon or playing habits don't stop me from feeling it is better all round for both alliance and horde if the High elves return properly to the alliance, and those elements of them on the horde cease to exist, the remaining blood elves develop into something non-high elven like they were originally going in early TBC. Just because I don't desire high elves anymore doesn't mean I don't think their resurgence on the alliance at the expense of their civilization on the horde isn't the best way forward for the game IF and only if blizzard want to keep that core of Warcraft (as they claim) alive and central to this franchise.


Elves are thematically alliance, everyone recognises and knows this that played the original Warcraft series and the original classic. Those who didn't only need look at the lore, the history, and at the blood elves themselves to see they are far closer to the alliance in EVERYTHING and in every way than the horde. And as for the Nightborne - it is clear to all, old and new that this is a Night elf sub race based on Night elf lore that's sitting on the horde, and is exactly the same like if they took the Highmountain to the alliance or the Zandalari to the alliance - they would be troll sub race on the alliance (or Tauren subrace on the alliance) and would be a horde themed race on the alliance.


Sneering at me for saying that doesn't change what it is. Hating me for pointing it out or suggesting it won't change that. Calling me names and colourful adjectives won't change that regardless of what you think my motive is.

[Tanaria]

Too right about all of this guys

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Forsaken are exactly what Ravenmoon feels the blood elves shoudl become.. or rather that sort of directional change - distinct, enough to belong to a different faction

Because blood elves are very high elven - the problem is that I am fine with high elves being on the horde.

Perhaps in some areas, but in others, they are full-on, Blood Elves.

Fel Crystals in TBC
Blood Knights
Blood Magic with the Sunreavers

These things came with the Blood Elves going Horde. They weren't in Silvermoon when it was a, primarily, independent nation controlled by the High Elf, Anasterian.

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Because alliance people love humans and pals - it's the Tolkein gold standard that a large chunk of fantasy players like. Those who play alliance tend to be of that ilk. It is highly popular which is why the blood elves going horde was such a success. And is why the alliance want the high elves playable and established back and aren't satisfied with night elves or other elven incarnations like void elves.

Their argument is because the high elves were an alliance race and core - and that this is core to warcraft alliance - because blizzard made it so.

they are 100% right it is, but they have to recognise that blizzard has every right to change this core, and they did. It might be a contradiction for them to harp on about restoring the core and not change the blood elves on the horde - but it's their contradiction to make - and you'd have many a horde elf fan rleived and happy they do not - even if it would increase alliance numbers and restore the original dichotomy.

the question we must ask is if it's that essential to restore teh original dichtomy. Ravenmoon feels so in order to keep the core of warcraft robust and authentic, he may be right, but i question whether that is the direction for the franchise since it's been 14 years since the blood leves and things aren't that bad. Surely they shoudl be trying to hearken back tot he core. And if this gets to mean we keep the high elven civilziation, then I'm okay with that.

Sure things might be better if they go Ravenmoon's way, but there sin't any real guarantee, it would be another upheaval, and another differnet state.. and while if htey do it we will undoubtedly have to accept it, why not instead continue in the direction they have been going and blur the lines of the faction further for races that people are tugging at. Do the Elves, Goblins, Draenei and even Forsaken need to be exclusively tethered to one of the factions? What's so wrong with the Pandaren treatment extending to those races, and consolidating the core of the franchises Horde and alliance to primarily Humans and Orcs wtih Dwarves/Gnomes and Trolls/Tauren their thematic sidekicks - while the rest are a bit more open?

Well that's an Alliance problem. Without giving the other Alliance races some time to truly shine where they aren't just Human bots, then nothing will change. The story will be stagnant, the races will be boring with only 1 race truly shining. This is why, in the current climate, putting strong characters like Lor'themar and Thalyssra on the Alliance will absolutely ruin them. I've said it before and I'll say it again - both their cities will basically be governed by Humans because Lor'themar will forget how to "Farstrider" so will call on Mathias and Anduin and Thalyssra will forget how to Mage and call on the likes of Jaina.
The Alliance writers at Blizzard are far too obsessed with Humans and that is why the Alliance story is bad. Tone that down, buff the current races up and your problems will start being solved. Alliance doesn't need to rob the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei of their homes and leave those playerbases feeling like dirt.

Silvermoon and Suramar aren't going Alliance. Let's make that clear. They might go neutral, but they won't join with the opposing faction, because they have their reasons to stay together. The High Elves in Suramar were just like the Night Elves - they wanted nothing to do with the Nightborne. The Blood Elves wanted everything to do with the Nightborne and the Nightborne fighters like Silgryn and Victorie were far more impressed with them than they were about nelf sentinels or helf mages.
Once again, Horde brought a diverse range of soldiers, ranging from Blood Knights, Farstriders and Mages. Alliance only brought Darnassus Sentinels and Silver Covenant Mages.

[ravenmoon]

Too right about all of this guys

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Forsaken are exactly what Ravenmoon feels the blood elves shoudl become.. or rather that sort of directional change - distinct, enough to belong to a different faction

Because blood elves are very high elven - the problem is that I am fine with high elves being on the horde.

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Because alliance people love humans and pals - it's the Tolkein gold standard that a large chunk of fantasy players like. Those who play alliance tend to be of that ilk. It is highly popular which is why the blood elves going horde was such a success. And is why the alliance want the high elves playable and established back and aren't satisfied with night elves or other elven incarnations like void elves.

Their argument is because the high elves were an alliance race and core - and that this is core to warcraft alliance - because blizzard made it so.

they are 100% right it is, but they have to recognise that blizzard has every right to change this core, and they did. It might be a contradiction for them to harp on about restoring the core and not change the blood elves on the horde - but it's their contradiction to make - and you'd have many a horde elf fan rleived and happy they do not - even if it would increase alliance numbers and restore the original dichotomy.

the question we must ask is if it's that essential to restore teh original dichtomy. Ravenmoon feels so in order to keep the core of warcraft robust and authentic, he may be right, but i question whether that is the direction for the franchise since it's been 14 years since the blood leves and things aren't that bad. Surely they shoudl be trying to hearken back tot he core. And if this gets to mean we keep the high elven civilziation, then I'm okay with that.

Sure things might be better if they go Ravenmoon's way, but there sin't any real guarantee, it would be another upheaval, and another differnet state.. and while if htey do it we will undoubtedly have to accept it, why not instead continue in the direction they have been going and blur the lines of the faction further for races that people are tugging at. Do the Elves, Goblins, Draenei and even Forsaken need to be exclusively tethered to one of the factions? What's so wrong with the Pandaren treatment extending to those races, and consolidating the core of the franchises Horde and alliance to primarily Humans and Orcs wtih Dwarves/Gnomes and Trolls/Tauren their thematic sidekicks - while the rest are a bit more open?

Look dude, it depends on what blizzard wants and feels is best for their game. They have been reluctant to homogenise and dilute the factions further, to remove them or change their meaning. They feel this is what makes Warcraft special and well... Warcraft.

And if you follow that theme properly, and properly restore it in a way that will enhance the game, then what I have been suggesting is the way to go. This way can work very well for everyone, though at first some horde fans would be upset, but I can assure you overall they'd be much happier and find that original balance of the game restored especially when their blood elves get cool developments later - it will be a much better move than the original one that offended alliance fans and took the high elves over to the horde and a night elf sub -race.

And while it won't remove blood elves and Nightborne from the horde, them changing from being high elves and night elven civilization would be important and significant, but also could be quite welcome if what they change to is cool. It doesn't have to be dainty pretty like the high elves and night elven civilization in fact I recommend it isn't at all as that is too alliancey. It but it can be majestic, like Nazjatar is or like Castle Nathria and Revendreth is and could be just as cool as the Illidari are retaining the original model and gaining new customisations to reflect the development - ones that would be cool and exclusively horde, not shared with high elves or night elves (Highborne or otherwise.)

It's a new vision that isn't really new but rather a proper restoration of the original. But it would be a change, and a new one to many who came into this with blood elves already in the horde as high elves - so like all change, it would upset some, but in time, they'd actually come to appreciate it and love what they will get down the line.

failing ot make this change continues to perpetuate the alliance on the horde through said blood elves and Nightborne, it also condemns them to always being secondary as to elevate them on the horde would make it feel to alliancey, so they have to keep Orcs, troll and tauren at the forefront, because blood elves and Nightborne are too alliance and bringing that forward would make the horde feel to alliance.. so if things stay as is, these elf horde fans would never see blood elves grow more - unless blizzard changes everything about factions - and they're not wiling to do that.

So the other option is to consolidate - and it is really not a bad one. So what if you lose Silvermoon Suramar and most of those blood elves and Nightborne become high elves and Night elves again allying with the alliance? It may sting at first but if the end result means 2 expansions later the blood elves get badass new improvements and developments that are very different from the high elves and Night elven civilization but look really cool and are really good - allowing them to be major players like the Forsaken became, this will serve you better in the long run. All it did was cost you Quel'thalas and Suramar -but you go something just as good but different in return, and if you really liked Quel'thalas and Suramar, they're still there, just on the alliance.

And if you like both, nothing stopping you from having both toons but your horde will feel horde and your alliance feel alliance.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Hasn't anyone told you that all the Alliance is, is "Humans and the rest."
The rest of the races of the Alliance aren't important in comparison to Humans. That's your problem.

Not Blood Elves and Nightborne being on the Horde. It's your own precious faction that is just a badly written faction because their is an over-emphasis on Humans. Literally, since WoTLK - now, it's been the following:
Varian's journey
Jaina's journey
Anduin's journey
Jaina's journey again
Anduin's journey again.

Also - if Nightborne and Blood Elves lose their homelands, then Night Elves and Draenei lose their's. Alliance controls all of the EK and the Broken Isles...it's only fair that the nelfs and draenei lose all of there's on Kalimdor and the Blood Elves claim the Zorum Strand where they teleport their Sunwell Plateau. Ashenvale, the very place where Malfurion exiled their ancestors, becomes their new home.
It might hurt you and it might sting, but you've got to accept fairness. Nelfs must lose ALL of their Kalimdor holdings and go and live in the East.
Lor'themar and Thalyssra remain the leaders of their people.

[Beloren]

Perhaps in some areas, but in others, they are full-on, Blood Elves.

Fel Crystals in TBC
Blood Knights
Blood Magic with the Sunreavers

These things came with the Blood Elves going Horde. They weren't in Silvermoon when it was a, primarily, independent nation controlled by the High Elf, Anasterian.



Well that's an Alliance problem. Without giving the other Alliance races some time to truly shine where they aren't just Human bots, then nothing will change. The story will be stagnant, the races will be boring with only 1 race truly shining. This is why, in the current climate, putting strong characters like Lor'themar and Thalyssra on the Alliance will absolutely ruin them. I've said it before and I'll say it again - both their cities will basically be governed by Humans because Lor'themar will forget how to "Farstrider" so will call on Mathias and Anduin and Thalyssra will forget how to Mage and call on the likes of Jaina.
The Alliance writers at Blizzard are far too obsessed with Humans and that is why the Alliance story is bad. Tone that down, buff the current races up and your problems will start being solved. Alliance doesn't need to rob the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei of their homes and leave those playerbases feeling like dirt.

Silvermoon and Suramar aren't going Alliance. Let's make that clear. They might go neutral, but they won't join with the opposing faction, because they have their reasons to stay together. The High Elves in Suramar were just like the Night Elves - they wanted nothing to do with the Nightborne. The Blood Elves wanted everything to do with the Nightborne and the Nightborne fighters like Silgryn and Victorie were far more impressed with them than they were about nelf sentinels or helf mages.
Once again, Horde brought a diverse range of soldiers, ranging from Blood Knights, Farstriders and Mages. Alliance only brought Darnassus Sentinels and Silver Covenant Mages.

My point was simple, even if Ravemmoon is 100% right in all he says, it doesn't mean that his is the best solution nor the only way to go forward.

What his failure to recognise is the direction blizzard is going. If you recall he and Mace had the same failing when they tried to insist the Night elven Highborne and pre-sundering side should be revitalised on the night elves - they failed to see blizzard was taking the night elves into an exclusive forest elf role, rather than the larger/greater "origin" elf role their initial lore presentation had. And they see that role being played by the Zandalari to the trolls and are jealous of it - but ultimately fail to read the direction. I think that failing is because they desire the old school - but blizzard have moved on from that. When they did the Nightborne, they gave the kaldorei civilziation, but felt it better to take it to the horde instead of execute the grand night elf resurgence he and his friend hoped for or what they probably correctly identified was the original plan for the Night elves.

Notice everything Ravenmoon is suggesting takes Warcraft's heart back to it's original format - and he feels the developments like high elves going horde or night elves going all forest elf is worse or inferior - he seems to be one of those hardcore old fans, or one of those people who think the 00s era stuff was better.

But the game evolved, I don't think having blood elves on the horde in their high elf incarnation is all that bad, it makes the horde more diverse - and sure you could counter there are other ways to make the horde more diverse that doesn't homogenise the factions or port the cream of the alliance over to the horde, but this is what the devs did and I don't think his reasons are sufficient cause for them to change. The problem just isn't as bad or serious to warrant such a change.

And what they don't seem to accept is blizzard has moved on from that and aren't going back.

[ravenmoon]

My point was simple, even if Ravemmoon is 100% right in all he says, it doesn't mean that his is the best solution nor the only way to go forward.

What his failure to recognise is the direction blizzard is going. If you recall he and Mace had the same failing when they tried to insist the Night elven Highborne and pre-sundering side should be revitalised on the night elves - they failed to see blizzard was taking the night elves into an exclusive forest elf role, rather than the larger/greater "origin" elf role their initial lore presentation had. And they see that role being played by the Zandalari to the trolls and are jealous of it - but ultimately fail to read the direction. I think that failing is because they desire the old school - but blizzard have moved on from that. When they did the Nightborne, they gave the kaldorei civilziation, but felt it better to take it to the horde instead of execute the grand night elf resurgence he and his friend hoped for or what they probably correctly identified was the original plan for the Night elves.

Notice everything Ravenmoon is suggesting takes Warcraft's heart back to it's original format - and he feels the developments like high elves going horde or night elves going all forest elf is worse or inferior - he seems to be one of those hardcore old fans, or one of those people who think the 00s era stuff was better.

But the game evolved, I don't think having blood elves on the horde in their high elf incarnation is all that bad, it makes the horde more diverse - and sure you could counter there are other ways to make the horde more diverse that doesn't homogenise the factions or port the cream of the alliance over to the horde, but this is what the devs did and I don't think his reasons are sufficient cause for them to change. The problem just isn't as bad or serious to warrant such a change.

And what they don't seem to accept is blizzard has moved on from that and aren't going back.

blizzard aren't going back? They are the ones that want to keep the original core of Warcraft. And what if going back is actually quite a good thing and the thing that recaptures and re-ignites the franchise?

The franchise exploded on the original concepts of Warcraft and it's races especially the WC3 to wow and the original lore. My fascination with night elves was not just because of the WC3 showing and Wow classic presentation, but the stories of it's pre-sundering civilization I read in WotA and the potential the Night elves could develop into now their long vigil was over in WC3 - many fans saw more than what was in the game, those who loved the franchise read both in game content and novel releases that captured their imagination of what could come down the line.

Blizzard betrayed many a fan by all their changes to some of the coolest stuff they liked, especially if what you liked happened to be on the alliance, just because they were promoting the horde, races like night elves and others could have bene a lot cooler and better - is it such a bad thing to restore that now? Especially since the alliance needs the popularity?

You and @Tanaria are happy for things staying the way they are, the direction becoming fixed and blizzard not changing anything because this keeps your status quo, but it does nothing for the alliance - your horde bias makes you happy that the alliance stays sub-par and things continue the way they are, b. but a sub-par alliance is not good for the game - it may be good for horde fans but it isn't good for the game, . The number imbalance isn't good for the game systems, and the story is lame because one faction is always second best and always losing or coming off less..

You have to have both factions equally attractive and powerful if you want players to genuinely pick both and have a dynamic system that is more interesting. It may cost you your laughs and feelings of superiority which may make you unhappy for a little while, but you will get a better product and more enjoyment from picking a side.

- - - Updated - - -

Hasn't anyone told you that all the Alliance is, is "Humans and the rest."
The rest of the races of the Alliance aren't important in comparison to Humans. That's your problem.

Not Blood Elves and Nightborne being on the Horde. It's your own precious faction that is just a badly written faction because their is an over-emphasis on Humans. Literally, since WoTLK - now, it's been the following:
Varian's journey
Jaina's journey
Anduin's journey
Jaina's journey again
Anduin's journey again.

Also - if Nightborne and Blood Elves lose their homelands, then Night Elves and Draenei lose their's. Alliance controls all of the EK and the Broken Isles...it's only fair that the nelfs and draenei lose all of there's on Kalimdor and the Blood Elves claim the Zorum Strand where they teleport their Sunwell Plateau. Ashenvale, the very place where Malfurion exiled their ancestors, becomes their new home.
It might hurt you and it might sting, but you've got to accept fairness. Nelfs must lose ALL of their Kalimdor holdings and go and live in the East.
Lor'themar and Thalyssra remain the leaders of their people.

Not necessarily. if Blood elves and Nightborne lose their homelands but Orcs and Trolls gain new ones by new cities and territories coming forward, that evens it out. furthermore if later on down the line the remaining blood elves and Nightborne get new developments, new assets and new territories too as they grow into full fledged horde race not based on alliance high elves and night elven Highborne they use to be.

[Tanaria]

- - - Updated - - -

Not necessarily. if Blood elves and Nightborne lose their homelands but Orcs and Trolls gain new ones by new cities and territories coming forward, that evens it out. furthermore if later on down the line the remaining blood elves and Nightborne get new developments, new assets and new territories too as they grow into full fledged horde race not based on alliance high elves and night elven Highborne they use to be.

Nope - Alliance can't have any of Kalimdor, if the Horde has to lose Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles to boot.
If you want Silvermoon and Suramar, you simply have to say goodbye to all of Kalimdor and the Blood Elves and Nightborne don't lose their populations - they all stay in tact and reclaim the Western side of Kalimdor and rebuild everything from Winterspring down to Feralas.

Blood Elf fans and Nightborne fans aren't waiting a decade for new lore. They are getting new stuff as quick as them losing their homes, that were rightfully there's. Lor'themar can claim North West Kalimdor and Thalyssra can claim South West Kalimdor.

It's elf lands for elf lands. The stupid nelfs can launch an attack on Suramar, but they lose their lands of Kalimdor, since they have no soldiers to defend them.
Alliance also loses parts of Northrend.

Crystalsong Forest is claimed by the Blood Elves
Dragonblight can be shared by Orcs, Tauren and Nightborne
Howling Fyjord can be given to the Forsaken
Borean Tundra can be given to the Orcs

[ravenmoon]

Nope - Alliance can't have any of Kalimdor, if the Horde has to lose Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles to boot.
If you want Silvermoon and Suramar, you simply have to say goodbye to all of Kalimdor and the Blood Elves and Nightborne don't lose their populations - they all stay in tact and reclaim the Western side of Kalimdor and rebuild everything from Winterspring down to Feralas.

Blood Elf fans and Nightborne fans aren't waiting a decade for new lore. They are getting new stuff as quick as them losing their homes, that were rightfully there's. Lor'themar can claim North West Kalimdor and Thalyssra can claim South West Kalimdor.

It's elf lands for elf lands. The stupid nelfs can launch an attack on Suramar, but they lose their lands of Kalimdor, since they have no soldiers to defend them.
Alliance also loses parts of Northrend.

Crystalsong Forest is claimed by the Blood Elves
Dragonblight can be shared by Orcs, Tauren and Nightborne
Howling Fyjord can be given to the Forsaken
Borean Tundra can be given to the Orcs

It doesn't have to be Elf lands for elf lands at all..

The only ones who have right to elf lands are the elves, the kaldorei lands, which include Broken isles and western Kalimdor are modelled after the kaldorei and the Thalassian lands are really high elven.


However that doesn't mean much, because with the blood elves essentially being high elves, they have claim, as do the Nightborne essentially being night elven Highborne sub race according to their story have claim too... but we are changing the blood elves and Nightborne into something new, so we will give them new places.


Darkshore, Desolace on Kalimdor and Crystalsong forest in Northrend will be good for the Nightborne

Azshara zone and Bloodmyst and Azuremyst will be good for the Blood elves.

There are places in Icecrown and Northrend we can develop the San'layn if we are integrating them with the blood elves, a Nightborne and naga integration will also be interesting, allow some new features to them. - this is one potential development of the blood elves and Nightborne - but who says it has to be limited to san'layn and naga - everything they develop should be different and apart from their former high elven and night elven existence. But it's not limited to one

Blood elf development:
1. Some San'layn and vampiric developments for some blood elves
2. Much bigger role for fel blood elf - Illidari blood elves capture some of the efforts of the blood elves and this expands
3. Blood crystal development of the blood elves - the magic of the blood elves switches from the high elf sun focus to blood - and this can tie in with the San'layn
4. Netherstorm improvements for the blood elves - this is a new magical direction too away from the sun, but still quite magical

Fire, Blood, Fel, Nether - become the new blood elf focuses. Very different from the sun, frost, Light focus of the High elves

Nightborne Development:
1. Chronomancy plays a much larger role, they get help from future Nightborne, who forced further evolution using time magic and weaponsie it better. This is how Elisande returns her echoes led this movement and she was able to recover herself (mostly.
2. Dimensional and Alternative universe manipulation
3. Night magic - darkness comes to play a much larger role in the Nightborne
4. Naga affiliations - naga influence and combining forces becomes a thing, some Nightborne/naga hybrid with an elf form and naga form become a feature Nightborne can adapt.

These are 4 examples of developments that take them away from anything that has been traditionally kaldorei whether Highborne or pre-sundering. Their magical focus has developments.. like Naga and San'lyan remain arcane talented, but actually have mastery over mnew magics more primarily or just as well so to do these blood elves and Nightborne - they develop new architecture.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Not interested in turning them into Naga or San'layn. Neither of them are that race. Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei are their own race and you have to stop being nasty and selfish or I just will. Such as below:

And it's elf land for elf land. Accept it. You want Suramar and Silvermoon (essentially Broken Isles and Eastern Kingdoms), then you give up all Night Elf and Draenei lands, as well as bases in Northrend.

Crystalsong Forest goes to the Blood Elves as that was where they fought with the High Elves and the Helfs should obviously lose.
Dragonblight goes to Nightborne, Orcs and Tauren
Howling Fyjord goes to the Forsaken
Borean goes to the Orcs.

Ashenvale, Darkshore, Felwood and Winterspring goes to the Blood Elves
Desolace, Stonetalon and Feralas goes to the Nightborne

Eldre'Thalas is rebuilt with Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei archietecture and this is where Thalyssra, Lor'themar and their advisors meet. Adivsors include Valtrois, Rommath, Occuleth, Liadrin, Hauldoran, Elsya, Victorie, Silgryn and a bunch of others with their populations.

So you have to lose all of Kalimdor. It may sting, but you have get used to it. You want to upset blood elf and nightborne fans, then night elf and draenei fans should be equally as upset. That's just fair.

Or, if you don't want this - then the Horde keeps Silvermoon and Suramar and you get to keep your lands. Forget High Elves, because their is no playable race called "High Elves." It's Blood Elves and Void Elves. Velfs are the change from Blood Elves, because Blood Elves are the core race. They shouldn't change just because you have hurt feelings. Hell, you don't even play - why should we actually listen to you?

Again, you want to take something from us, then we take all of the Kalimdor from you. You lose all nelf lands, because that is fair.

TIP: Give up. Your not convincing anybody with your headcanon. You don't care about the Alliance. You just want your precious elf mages on one side. Well, it will never happen. Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei are proudly Horde races, along with Silvermoon and Suramar. Long may it continue.