Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

sigh, bring back Obelisk Kai

Urgh, I hate myself for admitting I'd prefer him over Ravenmoon's obsession with the Highborne Empire

[Varodoc]

sigh, bring back Obelisk Kai

Unless he's banned, he's free to show himself around here.

Of course, I wouldn't blame him for not doing so, since he spent God knows how many years no-lifing this forum just because he was salty at the idea of fantasy elves getting fair skin options. Everyone would clown his ass no doubt LOLOL.

[Beloren]

Urgh, I hate myself for admitting I'd prefer him over Ravenmoon's obsession with the Highborne Empire

I'm enjoying Ravenmoon's specials, his views are different and always seem so anti popular, i've grown a fondness for them.


He does make sense, but he isn't very agreeable. He doesn't say nice things and his focus is too obscure - it's like focusing on a small fringe part and blowing it up to huge proportions - it's weird because it's not that relevant, yet he makes enough noise about it. he may be correct in all his detail, but it really doesn't amount to much and sort of misses what's more central - but I have been entertained and have some good arguments. I have been swayed in some areas too - but one thing is absolutely clear.. this faction nonsense has to go.

My Alternative to Ravenmoon's Proposal
It is way too divisive.. I don't care if it it's the core of Warcraft, it doesn't make sense any longer - the blood elves aren't going back to the alliance, i think blizzard find that option even worse, which means there is only one realistic way they can go, and is to end the faction division - if not in all races, at least in some like the elves, goblins, forsaken Pandaren and possibly the Draenei should allow players to be able to choose their faction. Don't get me wrong, you have to belong to one of the two factions, but a few races can choose. it's like semi-flexibility - it's not removing the factions, but allowing more spread. each race can have a story as to why some of htier members can be on the opposite faction - whether they go neutral, or get further polarised.

These races aren't that central to the original alliance and horde - regardless of what faction their theme aligns with. With neutral elves, then the alliance can have as many high elves as they want, or Highborne, nightborne, night elves - and so can the horde. What I would do is I would write void elves to be alliance exclusive, and night elves neutral - with the only night elves you find on the alliance and the horde being Highborne ones - I would expand the Highborne to be interested in nature magic too, just like the nightborne have been so you would have some Highborne being druids. Afterall Highborne caste were basically the best kaldorei in all fields, not just arcane, although the arcane dominated. The purer night elves Malfurion/Tyrande types remain entirely neutral, leaving the younger races, but the Highborne types continue to want to shape and mould the destiny of the world and increase their knowledge.


Pandaren would also be neutral, to be honest, Huojin and tushui don't really make that much difference anyway, no one will care if they mix or they don't because you can have Pandaren either way.

Goblins is easy to see, they follow profit, not loyalties to a faction, while some individuals are exceptions, some cartels like the Steamwheedle would likely ally with the alliance, and the Bilgewater on the horde.

Forsaken already have a basis for existing on both factions thanks to recent lore and Calia, Lordaeron coudl be a centre for the two like Ravenmoon has suggested, where players can choose either faction they want to work as - as a human hater or one who is clinging to his humanity and loved ones. The forsaken would be more horde predisposed naturally, but the player would choose.

Draenei could be in either faction based on Naaru resurgence and the benevolence of the light that is willing to embrace all, and share all, causing Draenei and Lightforged to be willing to interact with races in both factions, and being motivated by the Light to bring peace and unity to all.

Thalassians would be neutral too, they don't like the horde in general, and it's true they have more in common with the alliance or the alliance is based on them too, but, recent events gives no compelling reason why they should switch to the alliance wholesale, neutrality is much more realistic, and players who roll them, can choose to be in the horde as blood elves or in the alliance as high elves.

Void elves could stay loyal to the alliance and would be a mark of Thalassians that are exclusively alliance.

Nightborne could undergo Ravenmoon's transformation and many return to being night elves thanks tot he Arcan'dor, but, because magic can be used to halt the reversion, some take it and some don't. Suramar will fall to neutrality and Nightborne who pick the alliance will be in the Night elf model, while those who stay on the horde will have the Nightborne model, - so while people can choose either faction, the models are locked to the horde.


This is a compromise that would work if they want to maintain some faction distinctiveness. @ravenmoon is suggesting they go full on separation and distinctiveness, I understand the point, it may very well work and accomplish all he says.. but is that really the direction warcraft should be going? I would present that the devs should instead re-examine their desire to keep that original horde and original alliance in that separate distinct facet. I think a compromise would be the better approach.

A bunch of less key races go neutral, but players who pick them have to choose a faction. There would still be only 2 factions, but certain races can exist on both.

Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Worgen (void elves) would be exclusively Alliance

Orcs, Troll, Tauren, Vulpera (nightborne) exclusively horde

All elves, Draenei, Goblins, Forsaken and Pandaren can choose a faction, but have to choose. You cannot remain neutral.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

SNIP

Yeah, but all of this has little to do with High Elves. Which is kind of an issue, cause of course this whole thread is wanky AF, but Ravenmoon's wank is just so rooted in him wanting Highborne culture to be a staple of alliance elves, he just wants to reach that conclusion in whatever way.

But regardless of Ravenmoon's motivation, the whole idea of strict faction dichotomy is something I highly disagree with, and not even the game seems to want to go with that since Pandaren, and now the VE/BE overlap.

At the end of the day, you can't make believable a geo-political division of two -allegedly, ostensibly- factions with both pros and cons, based on race. If they are both valid ideologies, forcing races to chose either based on aesthetics and themes just runs anathema to such idea. It really is just dumbing down the ideological complexity for "aesthetics" sake.

Yes, factions need stronger themes, but simply separating races by aesthetics is the laziest and worst way to do it. The Horde has finally found a glimmer of hope in the idea of being an egalitarian council, and giving both factions different power structures that reflects their beliefs does FAR MORE for faction identity than artificial segregation of races and their aesthetics based on a subjective whim.

That's EXACTLY why I wanted High Elves since WotLK; because the idea of ostensibly the same people, having so contrasting political and ideological views to the point they chose different factions added a whole new layer of complexity. They tried to add that concept actually with Pandaren, but it just came short to build an interesting context for that choice beyond a fraction of a leveling area. It's just a bummer than later on the same expansion we saw the best of that ideological schism within the same people in the Purge of Dalaran and Isle of Thunder, but with elves -rather than the actual race introduced as neutral lol-

[Tanaria]

Are we back to talking about how Blood Elves and Nightborne should be made sub-servants to the "Humans and Pals" faction?

[Beloren]

Yeah, but all of this has little to do with High Elves. Which is kind of an issue, cause of course this whole thread is wanky AF, but Ravenmoon's wank is just so rooted in him wanting Highborne culture to be a staple of alliance elves, he just wants to reach that conclusion in whatever way.

But regardless of Ravenmoon's motivation, the whole idea of strict faction dichotomy is something I highly disagree with, and not even the game seems to want to go with that since Pandaren, and now the VE/BE overlap.

At the end of the day, you can't make believable a geo-political division of two -allegedly, ostensibly- factions with both pros and cons, based on race. If they are both valid ideologies, forcing races to chose either based on aesthetics and themes just runs anathema to such idea. It really is just dumbing down the ideological complexity for "aesthetics" sake.

Yes, factions need stronger themes, but simply separating races by aesthetics is the laziest and worst way to do it. The Horde has finally found a glimmer of hope in the idea of being an egalitarian council, and giving both factions different power structures that reflects their beliefs does FAR MORE for faction identity than artificial segregation of races and their aesthetics based on a subjective whim.

That's EXACTLY why I wanted High Elves since WotLK; because the idea of ostensibly the same people, having so contrasting political and ideological views to the point they chose different factions added a whole new layer of complexity. They tried to add that concept actually with Pandaren, but it just came short to build an interesting context for that choice beyond a fraction of a leveling area. It's just a bummer than later on the same expansion we saw the best of that ideological schism within the same people in the Purge of Dalaran and Isle of Thunder, but with elves -rather than the actual race introduced as neutral lol-

The evidence is clear the game is going for more overlap not less, Ravenmoon wants less, or thinks less will fix the problems. IT's similar to his night elf posts, he wants the game to go back to the time when night elves were envisioned and looked like they were going to be this massive race of elves with pre-sundering and long vigil components - you remember him quoting the WC3 interview that showed the devs explaining that the night elves are the best of the dark elves and the forest elves combined right - and how he and Mace quote it famously - yet he failed to recognise that since the Nightborne blizzard has stopped or at least diverted from that grander vision of night elves and put them in forest elf direction almost entirely - which makes sense because the Nightborne now carry on that Highborne fantasy of the night elves.

Yes, blizzard didn't have to do that, blizzard could continue to have developed night elves as both forest and dark elf, but they didn't, the direction went away from where he felt it should go, and no amount of quoting the lore or showing us the lore would change that.. he was accurate in his information, but it didn't matter, blizzard have often changed the direction they've gone with races, and stories including the factions, and this is no different.

He wants the factions to go back to that original horde and alliance dichotomy and separation - he feels it will fix the current issues. it might do, it probably will, but if the developers don't want that for the game and instead choose to continue in this pseudo shared races with some races like they are going with blood elves, void elves, nightborne and Highborne - then surely he should give it a rest because that's not what they want to do, it's clear.

[Imperator4321]

how can you do something like that and expect the alliance not to keep losing numbers and drawn over to the horde.

For goodness sake the Alliance is not losing numbers to the Horde because of High/Blood Elves, its because the Horde has had significantly stronger racials for raiding and other endgame content for years now and it caused the culture around said content to shift mainly to the Horde, globally faction balance is more or less equal with more casual players leaning alliance and top-level players favoring the horde.

Even then the loss of the numbers only really affects players who care about progression/end game content, RP realms for instance are generally Alliance focused.

This I believe will go a long way to fixing it.

No it wouldn't I doubt even half of the playerbase care about a given races lore, most people don't give a damn about the High/Blood Elf lore they play them because they are attractive and more human-like than other horde races.

Void Elves were almost exclusively treated with disdain and mockery by the parts of the playerbase that cares about lore/story yet they became the most played alliance allied race because they were hot goth/emo chicks/dudes, not because of their deep story and lore.

At this point theres no fixing the Alliance/Horde divide in high end content without just giving the alliance significantly better racials than the Horde and hoping enough guilds switch faction, and that would probably just invert the problem instead of solving it

[Beloren]

Are we back to talking about how Blood Elves and Nightborne should be made sub-servants to the "Humans and Pals" faction?

Exactly, he feels this is what the alliance should be, because this is what the alliance was originally and based upon. But the flaw in his logic is not the results he predicts, he is probably right, the flaw is thinking blizzard want to go back tot hat model or feeling they should as the only means to restore their franchise.

it may be the best means to restore the franchise's original core, but the franchise has moved away from that origin and isn't going back, because the devs don't want it to go back, and frankly I don't think any of the blood elf population would like that. I grant if they do it, we'll all get use to it and adjust, but we would like it no more than the alliance liked the blood elves going horde, or their fans liked losing Teldrassil - how can he expect Belf fans to want to go back to the alliance or lose Silvermoon?

IT is partly why I think the most blizzard should do is make Elves, Goblins, Draenei, Pandaren - neutral based races players can choose either faction from, and have in game lore reasons to justify why each group has access to the other faction.


Goblins - steamwheedle cartel join the alliance

Draenei - higher purpose, naaru incentive for peace and bring the Light to everyone - so some are willing to work with the horde

Blood elves - Silvermoon goes neutral, the state doesnt feel the factions are right for them, individuals can choose whether they join horde or alliance, those who join alliance always identify as high elves, those who join horde always as blood elves, the neutrals identify however they want based on their convictions, some blood elves put that off feeling they had mourned enough, , others continue - it's a personal preference that has nothing to do with the alliance or horde.

Night Elves - the Kaldorei go neutral, and don't want anything to do with the alliance or horde, however the Highborne instead want to influence the world, learn from it and guide it too, they persuade some of the most talented druids and priests too who prefer involvement rather than isolation to join them, as the caste is reshaped into bringing knowledge and philosophy whether of the arcane, Elune or nature to all - the original Highborne caste was always the most accomplished night elves in all fields of kaldorei society, and this is what they become again. These Highborne choose to work with both alliance and horde - but are mainly interested in their Thalassian kin in both factions and guiding the Kirin'tor, who they persuade to expand their horizon to include magical users and scholars who specialise in nature and divine magics, void, death, chaos and elements in understanding the full breadth of magic.

Void elves: Some are still drawn to the void, but because of the Sunwell they are prohibited from returning home, they make their home with the alliance

Nightborne: The Arcan'dor heals Nightborne into night elves, some really like this, some don't. Magic can indefinitely delay the process for those who desire it. Suramar does go neutral too, following Silvermoon, partly because enough people are interested in continuing as kaldorei, working with the Highborne philosophy, while others aren't. Whether you stay in nightborne form or regain your kaldorei form is up to the individual Nightborne, but it just happens that most who choose to help the alliance adopt their original kaldorei form, and those who tend to work with the horde their shal'dorei form, but Nightborne are free to choose.

All players who pick these races must choose a faction, they can have their own personal motivations or the motivations of some of their race who have followed to join certain factions. As players they can't stay neutral. I think this will work.

[Frenchvince]

Lots of races have unnatural hair colors, I think Void Elves can have their natural hair colors to complement their high elf customization options.
It's the least complicated thing to add for Blizzard.

[Vaedan]

And thats fine, but only a handfull here cares for the void elf theme. I am on board and leaving the blood elves to the tolkien theme and expand on what is there. Qual' Thalas updated, expsnd their story and leave the void elves out of that.
While we are at it, let the void elves have their own story.

Seperate them more is my opinion. I rather have boring tolkien elves then them trying to push the void elves in blood elf lands for example.

It would serve nothing and would only enhance the blood elf story if they kept their story so close. Alleria made her point and doesnt realy need to come back, there is no one in silvermoon who would care or even missed her to begin with, stating otherwise is headcanon. Anyway, I am gonna say they both deserve their own narratives, blood elves more then void elves tho, but thats an opinion.

Well, I only think blood elves deserve more then just being plain tolkien elves, mostly because their introduction to the game pictured them in pretty different way and current portrayal definitely does not fit well with the larger Horde flavor. I prefered them when they were reckless, whimsical and unforgiving. They are now basically pretty humans of the Horde, which is a shame.

I also think that you don't need to separate blood and void elves in full scale in order for each group have their own distinctive feature. Don't forget that void elves are kind of next step of blood elves, they will always be connected in some way. Kael's spirit in Revendreth recognizes void elves his people in the same way he does blood elves, and Zul'jins spirit shows the exact same contempt for them. You can definitel build void elves upon their thalassian ancestry and have their own story, different to blood elves. Their story may be centered around ties thalassians used to have with the Alliance in the past, rediscovering old friendships lost after Third War, as well as developing their homesickness and dreams of Quel'thalas being united (which will most likely not happen during WoW lifespan)... all of this is something blood elves are not involved in anymore, yet it was something which attracted high elf fans for years.

With void elves, we also have a chance to discover more of the Void, most likely it's not entirely evil side. I expect we will find out that Void is not ultimately evil force and Light is not purely source of good in the future. Void elves and lightbound are potential seeds for this plot. I guess blood elves will serve as Horde's closest connection to the forces of Light in the future.

[ravenmoon]

I'm enjoying Ravenmoon's specials, his views are different and always seem so anti popular, i've grown a fondness for them.


He does make sense, but he isn't very agreeable. He doesn't say nice things and his focus is too obscure - it's like focusing on a small fringe part and blowing it up to huge proportions - it's weird because it's not that relevant, yet he makes enough noise about it. he may be correct in all his detail, but it really doesn't amount to much and sort of misses what's more central - but I have been entertained and have some good arguments. I have been swayed in some areas too - but one thing is absolutely clear.. this faction nonsense has to go.

My Alternative to Ravenmoon's Proposal
SNI P

For goodness sake the Alliance is not losing numbers to the Horde because of High/Blood Elves, its because the Horde has had significantly stronger racials for raiding and other endgame content for years now and it caused the culture around said content to shift mainly to the Horde, globally faction balance is more or less equal with more casual players leaning alliance and top-level players favoring the horde.

Even then the loss of the numbers only really affects players who care about progression/end game content, RP realms for instance are generally Alliance focused.



No it wouldn't I doubt even half of the playerbase care about a given races lore, most people don't give a damn about the High/Blood Elf lore they play them because they are attractive and more human-like than other horde races.

Void Elves were almost exclusively treated with disdain and mockery by the parts of the playerbase that cares about lore/story yet they became the most played alliance allied race because they were hot goth/emo chicks/dudes, not because of their deep story and lore.

At this point theres no fixing the Alliance/Horde divide in high end content without just giving the alliance significantly better racials than the Horde and hoping enough guilds switch faction, and that would probably just invert the problem instead of solving it

Exactly, he feels this is what the alliance should be, because this is what the alliance was originally and based upon. But the flaw in his logic is not the results he predicts, he is probably right, the flaw is thinking blizzard want to go back tot hat model or feeling they should as the only means to restore their franchise.

it may be the best means to restore the franchise's original core, but the franchise has moved away from that origin and isn't going back, because the devs don't want it to go back, and frankly I don't think any of the blood elf population would like that. I grant if they do it, we'll all get use to it and adjust, but we would like it no more than the alliance liked the blood elves going horde, or their fans liked losing Teldrassil - how can he expect Belf fans to want to go back to the alliance or lose Silvermoon?

IT is partly why I think the most blizzard should do is make Elves, Goblins, Draenei, Pandaren - neutral based races players can choose either faction from, and have in game lore reasons to justify why each group has access to the other faction.

All flawed, look... it really is simple, if blizzard want to maintain the core of Warcraft, they need to take the high elves and night elves and their civilization back to the alliance, and the blood elves and Nightborne that remain become something different.. there is no other good way to do it.

You are right in one thing, it's all soo mixed up currently, you have the alliance races all over the horde and alliance, and one thing is for user, is that it doesn't favour the alliance - this is why the alliance is suffering numbers, and people like @Imperator think we are fooled into believing the alliance doesn't have far less people because his alleged experience says otherwise.

Whatever.

If blizzard want to preserve the core and heart of what Warcraft is, they need to do something like what I've suggested, they know this, the alliance elements need to return to the alliance.. if they don't want that, they can go to your proposals or leave things as is.

As for me, sure I can play high elves on the horde as blood elves (and I do), I can enjoy the Highborne night elven civilization through the Nightborne, or the druid/priest long vigil aspect of the night elves through the night elves, I have all the elven elements in game that I could want for, but it's not going to help the alliance in this format, nor is it going to help the horde and the core of Warcraft.

You can leave things as is, but you're not going to get the original horde feel with high elves and night elves sitting on the horde, so either give up that hope, or make it a reality properly. That's the choice blizzard has.

- - - Updated - - -

I really don't see the big fuss, I really don't.

What the big fuss of having high elves playing on the alliance? Except blood elf fans want to be snowflakes and somehow resent the is alliance race being available on the horde

They ask for distinction of the factions, yet when I propose this distinction be done properly people like MyWholeLifeIsThunder, Beloren and Tanaria disagree - it's hypocrisy, .. they don't high elves playable on the alliance because it make the horde less distinctive, but don't mind the fact that the alliance is already less distinctive because the high elves, an alliance race, and alliance themed group are available on the horde

The argument for playable high elves was lost the minute blood elves became available, it's just that many did not realise it

[bagina]

Lots of races have unnatural hair colors, I think Void Elves can have their natural hair colors to complement their high elf customization options.
It's the least complicated thing to add for Blizzard.

Wow, is that asian human female preset? I always knew femBelves had derpy mouthbreather faces but when you put them next to new human models it becomes that much more apparent! They look quite terrible. Belf model update when?

[ravenmoon]

Lots of races have unnatural hair colors, I think Void Elves can have their natural hair colors to complement their high elf customization options.
It's the least complicated thing to add for Blizzard.

Technically anyone can dye their hair any colour, lorewise it makes sense to have options available to your race or that your race is accustomed to. This technically means it should be quite possible for voidies to dye their hair.

There is also the fact that not all void elves have transitioned appearances, some are still in their high elven and blood elven original appearances, as we see in Telogrus Rift and as we see with Alleria.

[Varodoc]

The Ren'dorei leader, Lady Alleria Windrunner, literally has blonde hair:

[Alanar]

Well, I only think blood elves deserve more then just being plain tolkien elves, mostly because their introduction to the game pictured them in pretty different way and current portrayal definitely does not fit well with the larger Horde flavor. I prefered them when they were reckless, whimsical and unforgiving. They are now basically pretty humans of the Horde, which is a shame.

I also think that you don't need to separate blood and void elves in full scale in order for each group have their own distinctive feature. Don't forget that void elves are kind of next step of blood elves, they will always be connected in some way. Kael's spirit in Revendreth recognizes void elves his people in the same way he does blood elves, and Zul'jins spirit shows the exact same contempt for them. You can definitel build void elves upon their thalassian ancestry and have their own story, different to blood elves. Their story may be centered around ties thalassians used to have with the Alliance in the past, rediscovering old friendships lost after Third War, as well as developing their homesickness and dreams of Quel'thalas being united (which will most likely not happen during WoW lifespan)... all of this is something blood elves are not involved in anymore, yet it was something which attracted high elf fans for years.

With void elves, we also have a chance to discover more of the Void, most likely it's not entirely evil side. I expect we will find out that Void is not ultimately evil force and Light is not purely source of good in the future. Void elves and lightbound are potential seeds for this plot. I guess blood elves will serve as Horde's closest connection to the forces of Light in the future.

Then that is great for the void elves to dive into that void story, I dont care for it, so when I roll a blood elf I dont play them for that and since the sunwell is quite the opposite so that will likekly not happen anyway unless the story changes drastically.

Those are just fun notes that blizz add, since they used to be blood elves I get it. It has nothing to do with future narratives unless they push that. So Sure they are connected, night elves and nightborne are also connected. Does it matter? Not realy , they are perfectly fine with their own story.

Blood elves need more , but like I said, I would love to see how they are currently doing. With an updated silvermoon, dock and stories in quel' thalas etc. Void elves could be part of it sure.. but only to see how they are truly on a differnt path and exile. I mean.. we dont need the void elves to continue their story. Maybe it would even give some closure for void elves, so silvermoon is truly just not their home anymore. I would dig that, carve your own path.

I would like to kael get a story with silvermoon or current leader of silvermoon , I would like kael to focus on the blood elves who HE renamed and have some cool clash there.( he might stay or leave shadowlands, but it would be a waste to finnaly get the guy back and let him not interact with silvermoon or the blood elves. Give him a chance to explain hes sins to lorte mar for example. With that said, even of it doesnt happen and prince renethal dies for some reason and kael is the only person to do it(blizz smile) then I am perfectly fine being some vampire prince. Even better.

Connected doesnt mean we need them, remember that, they got kicked out for a reason.

[ravenmoon]

Well, I only think blood elves deserve more then just being plain tolkien elves, mostly because their introduction to the game pictured them in pretty different way and current portrayal definitely does not fit well with the larger Horde flavor. I prefered them when they were reckless, whimsical and unforgiving. They are now basically pretty humans of the Horde, which is a shame.

Exactly, the whole kick about blood elves at first was a deviation from the Tolkein high elf set the high elves are modelled on, but then they veered away from that back to the high elf portrayal.


It's naïve of some of the horde fans fighting my analysis to think that the blood elves as they are right now aren't essentially high elves modelled after the alliance themed race and civilziation.

They refuse to see the obvious, that when blizzard made the blood elves available on the horde, they were making the high elves playable, they wanted the alliance race on the horde, to lure alliance players over, this is why they stopped evolving the blood elves into something different, and instead started recovering a lot of their high elven identity, which is very alliance themed.

I also think that you don't need to separate blood and void elves in full scale in order for each group have their own distinctive feature. Don't forget that void elves are kind of next step of blood elves, they will always be connected in some way. Kael's spirit in Revendreth recognizes void elves his people in the same way he does blood elves, and Zul'jins spirit shows the exact same contempt for them. You can definitel build void elves upon their thalassian ancestry and have their own story, different to blood elves. Their story may be centered around ties thalassians used to have with the Alliance in the past, rediscovering old friendships lost after Third War, as well as developing their homesickness and dreams of Quel'thalas being united (which will most likely not happen during WoW lifespan)... all of this is something blood elves are not involved in anymore, yet it was something which attracted high elf fans for years.

With void elves, we also have a chance to discover more of the Void, most likely it's not entirely evil side. I expect we will find out that Void is not ultimately evil force and Light is not purely source of good in the future. Void elves and lightbound are potential seeds for this plot. I guess blood elves will serve as Horde's closest connection to the forces of Light in the future.

It makes sense to build void elves on their Thalassian ancestry, blizzard has given the void elves the high elven nobility and character, you only need to click on Umbric and listen to what he says in BFA on the alliance boat, follow the story and comments of the void elves to see that this is the intention of the group.

Whether this is to substitute void elves for high elves as the playable Thalassians on the alliance or some other purpose, this is what blizzard went with.

And it shouldn't surprise us anyway, the high elf heritage is alliance themed through and through.. What people have wanted is the high elf playable on the alliance again anyway, because alliance players love that shit.

Sure they appreciate variations like void elves and night elves, whether dark elf night elves or forest elf night elves - they love hat too - but that Tolkeinesque theme that horde elf fans seem to hate, the alliance loves, and it's funny how the horde elf crowd for all their disdain for the Tolkein trope, seem to be blind that their beloved horde elves have been made more and more like them.

- - - Updated - - -

Blood elves need more , but like I said, I would love to see how they are currently doing. With an updated silvermoon, dock and stories in quel' thalas etc. Void elves could be part of it sure.. but only to see how they are truly on a differnt path and exile. I mean.. we dont need the void elves to continue their story.

I would like to kael get a story with silvermoon or current leader of silvermoon , I would like kael to focus on the blood elves who HE renamed and have some cool clash there.( he might stay or leave shadowlands, but it would be a waste to finnaly get the guy back and let him not interact with silvermoon or the blood elves. Give him a chance to explain hes sins to lorte mar for example.

Connected doesnt mean we need them, remember that, they got kicked out for a reason.

I would love blood elves to go a very different direction from high elves. I feel that they should leave or lose Silvermoon , Quel'thalas and everything related to that.

Netherstorm and the Outland was a perfect destination and stronghold for the new revitalised blood elves.. but they ditched that. The reason they should lose all things high elven is because that's far too alliance, and I don't think that having alliance themed elven races with alliance type civilizations and characters should be on the horde.

SO in order to change that, Blood elves and Nightborne must become something unrelated and different from their high elven and Night elven roots. And that aspect of them should return back tot he alliance while they become something different.

Now that different should be interesting, and can be majestic.

[Alanar]

The Ren'dorei leader, Lady Alleria Windrunner, literally has blonde hair:

I cant look.like nightborne leader, I cant look like lortemar etc etc.

Racial leader are different, and look at some off the suggestions above you. They are atleast fair. You keep repeating the same stuff and its clear we dont need blood elves 2.0.

[Vaedan]

Then that is great for the void elves to dive into that void story, I dont care for it, so when I roll a blood elf I dont play them for that and since the sunwell is quite the opposite so that will likekly not happen anyway unless the story changes drastically.

Those are just fun notes that blizz add, since they used to be blood elves I get it. It has nothing to do with future narratives unless they push that. So Sure they are connected, night elves and nightborne are also connected. Does it matter? Not realy , they are perfectly fine with their own story.

Blood elves need more , but like I said, I would love to see how they are currently doing. With an updated silvermoon, dock and stories in quel' thalas etc. Void elves could be part of it sure.. but only to see how they are truly on a differnt path and exile. I mean.. we dont need the void elves to continue their story. Maybe it would even give some closure for void elves, so silvermoon is truly just not their home anymore. I would dig that, carve your own path.

I would like to kael get a story with silvermoon or current leader of silvermoon , I would like kael to focus on the blood elves who HE renamed and have some cool clash there.( he might stay or leave shadowlands, but it would be a waste to finnaly get the guy back and let him not interact with silvermoon or the blood elves. Give him a chance to explain hes sins to lorte mar for example. With that said, even of it doesnt happen and prince renethal dies for some reason and kael is the only person to do it(blizz smile) then I am perfectly fine being some vampire prince. Even better.

Connected doesnt mean we need them, remember that, they got kicked out for a reason.

Of course blood elf narrative does not really need void elves, and vice versa. After void elves were announced, I expected to replace Silver Covenant high elves as a foil to blood elves in future events, but we did really have a potential for that, so that may come in the future. That being said, void elves can have some cameos in the story of Quel'thalas in the future. In the same way, void elves don't really need Quel'thalas anymore, but including them in a limited way into the future of Quel'thalas does not seem to be bad idea either. I agree with you that right now, void elves shall find their own way and define themselves.

I think we may see some dialogues or other limited interactions with whatever blood elf/high/void elf character manage to go through veil and Kael, but I don't expect anything huge. Kael may have his name redeemed in the eyes of his people, so Sunstriders will not be such a shame for elves anymore. What I'd like to see even more is reunion of Kael and Anasterian.

Exactly, the whole kick about blood elves at first was a deviation from the Tolkein high elf set the high elves are modelled on, but then they veered away from that back to the high elf portrayal.


It's naïve of some of the horde fans fighting my analysis to think that the blood elves as they are right now aren't essentially high elves modelled after the alliance themed race and civilziation.

They refuse to see the obvious, that when blizzard made the blood elves available on the horde, they were making the high elves playable, they wanted the alliance race on the horde, to lure alliance players over, this is why they stopped evolving the blood elves into something different, and instead started recovering a lot of their high elven identity, which is very alliance themed.

Blizzard tried hard to assimilate blood elves into the Horde and their introduction in TBC is pretty solid proof. I accepted blood elves in the Horde long ago. What I don't like is how they are being portrayed lately. They lost their appeal which made them acceptable choice for the Horde. You can actually see horde fans criticize Blizz for turning Horde into "Red Alliance", which is absolutely justified concern, but unfortunately, that is a process which started long ago and blood elves helped that in their own way.

It makes sense to build void elves on their Thalassian ancestry, blizzard has given the void elves the high elven nobility and character, you only need to click on Umbric and listen to what he says in BFA on the alliance boat, follow the story and comments of the void elves to see that this is the intention of the group.

Whether this is to substitute void elves for high elves as the playable Thalassians on the alliance or some other purpose, this is what blizzard went with.

And it shouldn't surprise us anyway, the high elf heritage is alliance themed through and through.. What people have wanted is the high elf playable on the alliance again anyway, because alliance players love that shit.

Being proud of their Thalassian ancestry does not really mean they need to be connected to Quel'thalas. Quel'dorei who founded Quel'thalas were also exiles who wanted to forge their own way in the world.

Possible ren'dorei story:
Void elves are given opportunity to move into Duskwood, which has been destabilized in Legion. They take over abandoned Darkshire and rebuild it in thalassian fashion, but with their own shadowy twist. They call their this settlement New Silvermoon. On Raven's Hill Cemetery, ren'dorei found potent rifts of the Void, probably opened by Natalie Seline herself, which seep Void to the land and taint it with the shadow. Void Elf magisters build modified arcane sanctums which helps to contain these void energies and allows them to channel them. They expand into Deadwind Pass and turn their eyes toward mysterious Karazhan and secrets hidden in the tower. Grateful to the Crown of Stormwind for territory they were given, void and high elves now safeguard boarders of Duskwood and Deadwind pass from troll threat of Strangethorn Vale and Horde presence in Swamp of Sorrows.

In this version, void elves find new focus, new goals, but they still don't forget their homeland. They just don't need to be part of it anymore. They have their new home now.

I would love blood elves to go a very different direction from high elves. I feel that they should leave or lose Silvermoon , Quel'thalas and everything related to that.

Netherstorm and the Outland was a perfect destination and stronghold for the new revitalised blood elves.. but they ditched that. The reason they should lose all things high elven is because that's far too alliance, and I don't think that having alliance themed elven races with alliance type civilizations and characters should be on the horde.

SO in order to change that, Blood elves and Nightborne must become something unrelated and different from their high elven and Night elven roots. And that aspect of them should return back tot he alliance while they become something different.

Now that different should be interesting, and can be majestic.

Blood elves should not leave Silvermoon. They thought really hard to restore their kingdom, they deserve to keep it. If anything, the most logical way for Silvermoon is to become neutral, which would still allow Horde presence here. It is highly unlikely though and to be honest, I'm not that much interested in Silvermoon anymore, as long as void elves get their own place and their own narrative focus. Both blood and void elves belong to the Azeroth, so I would not like blood elves being kicked out to Netherstorm, or void elves dwelling in Telogrus for all eternity.

If there would be a change in the way how blood elves are portrayed to bring them closer to the Horde, then Silvermoon should change as well to reflect that... but it better stay in the hands of its people.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

If there would be a change in the way how blood elves are portrayed to bring them closer to the Horde, then Silvermoon should change as well to reflect that... but it better stay in the hands of its people.

I know you are trying to be generous with Ravenmoon, but I don't think that you can have a productive discussion with someone that wants to outright remove what they deem an elven identity from Blood Elves and Nightborne because elven identity and culture"belong to the alliance."

It's just such an insidious to outright say that Blood Elves don't deserve to be elves, it's just so weird.

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I cant look.like nightborne leader, I cant look like lortemar etc etc.

Racial leader are different, and look at some off the suggestions above you. They are atleast fair. You keep repeating the same stuff and its clear we dont need blood elves 2.0.

Not to agree with Varodoc on much beyond this, but it IS weird that we can't look like Alleria. And it's both about because Racial Leaders should be a representation of their races -and only Sylvanas was the exception to this, and it was relevant- And because it's still silly that of all the things, hair colors is what can't overlap.

We can look like Thalyssra and Lor'themar, what we don't have is their specific "styling" but the rest of their "base" appearance, skin color, eye color, hair color, all that is *part* of the playable races options. The problem with Alleria is that skin and eye color follow this logic, but not hair color, and there's no reason for it.

Like we have to admit there's an overlap between Void Elves and Blood Elves, as much as there was one between High Elves and Blood Elves, and while I do believe the lack of something close to Alleria's hair color makes no sense, I also believe there can be differentiation between VE and BE beyond those three phenotype characteristics.

That's where hairstyles and markings and jewelry matter, to showcase divergence not through biology, but culture.

And yet, I don't think VE need to have the same hair colors than BE's. They really could get more "ashy" "desaturated" or even "voided" shades of more natural hair colors.

And TBH, if Alleria's hair color itself was changed, I think that would be enough. If they literally said "yeah, using Void desaturates your hair" it would be just new lore lol. Still, I'd hope for more hair colors on VE's regardless, like Alleria's void form hair color.

In terms of styling, I still think that VE's could pattern themselves more to Alleria -Their Leader- and use more braids, war paint and feathers. Now I know some BE players also want those stuff and that's great, I really don't mind if VE and BE have an overlap, but would people like you be okay with that, or would you say that the styling that we only see in Alleria -Leader of the Void Elves- should belong exclusively to the Blood Elves instead?

Or you'd rather BE's get their own unique styling -such as Rommath like tattoos, scarification, etc?-

[ravenmoon]

Blizzard tried hard to assimilate blood elves into the Horde and their introduction in TBC is pretty solid proof. I accepted blood elves in the Horde long ago. What I don't like is how they are being portrayed lately. They lost their appeal which made them acceptable choice for the Horde. You can actually see horde fans criticize Blizz for turning Horde into "Red Alliance", which is absolutely justified concern, but unfortunately, that is a process which started long ago and blood elves helped that in their own way.

I know, which is why it's amusing that when I point out to them that they are red alliance, all of a sudden the very people pointing it out are now denying it, showing me that they are only interested in being contrary or arguing against what they perceive the enemy is.

I too accepted blood elves in the horde long ago, and accept them there now, I don't think it's a good idea for them to be there in this very high elven capacity/format/way of life and civilization for many reason, but I accept it, I don't dislike it either - but I do agree blood elves would have been more interesting in the original vision/direction they seemed to be going at the end of TFT, the direction they took with Kael'thas - minus the whole joining the legion, they could have been anti-hero badasses like Illidan and the Illidari - divorced from Silvermoon and the high lifestyle of their former high elven identity, settling in a new land, and in a sense a new identity, style everything, leaving Silvermoon to the high elves to recover (whenever blizzard decided they wanted to bring that back).

Now obviously blizzard didn't do that, I loved being able to play the blood elves - i.e. the high elves, so I can't say I hated it, but I always felt there were better choices and options and freely acknowledge that the decision to use an alliance race, ie. the high elves, but the renamed portion of them, was a very effective one and did the job the best, also with the highest chance of success of equalising the factions. (even though it did more than that, tipping and tilting things further down the horde route)

And I say this again, that restoring that stuff to the alliance - i.e. the high elves, their kingdom, as well as the kaldorei civilization in Suramar and most of it's populace - i.e. the alliance elements of the blood elves and Nightborne, would be the most effective way of fixing the alliance number problems and balancing the factions back to that original core dichotomy they seem to be so proud of and keep insisting this is the core and heart of Warcraft they want to preserve, yet are undermining by keeping the blood elves so high elven and the Nightborne in a 100% kaldorei civilization capacity.

I still say the blood elves of Silvermoon should return to being high elves with their land - and shift back to the alliance, and the remnant blood elves develop into something new - maybe the version the blood elves were going to be after TFT - anti-hero types - the Illidari model seems a good one, but it isn't the only option, San'layn are a direction that is plausible too, they are basically to the high elves what the forsaken are to the humans, and can have their own cool unique additional features like a vampire feature - that's really cool but optional to use unlike the worgen - giving blood elf players the ability to morph their blood elves into vampires if they want or maintain their pretty faces - even if their culture and character divulge completely away from the high elves at last.

Similar treatment for the Nightborne, although what they do with them would be a different story. while blood elves in Quel'thalas can choose to become high elves, Nightborne, while Highborne in character, are not night elven in appearance, but thankfully the Arcan'dor is a plausible mechanism to restore their Night elven form which would allot hem to be pre-disposed alliance. And those who don't want to follow the majority of the city? or cause trouble and maybe bring back Elisande believing power and dominion in the direction she was going and the Naga went - would certainly divulge them from the original kaldorei nobility of Thalyssra and the Nightfallen which is very Farondis like and very kaldorei empire glory days of grace before the Highborne fell to arrogance and addiction. You see the naga quite nicely show an evolution of the kaldorei civilization when they deviated from their noble and benevolent (and very alliance) foundation that their empire was established upon and thrived on in its early stages. The Naga are the development of how they can become very different from who they were, yet still have elements of beauty, magical talent and power.

The Nightborne don't have to change appearance, as their appearance is already different from the night elves, so don't need any extra customisations like vampire forms to distinguish them, but they could do - while they don't have to become monstrous like the naga, they could develop in ways or altered by time, maybe int heir story, the remnant Nightborne get met by evolved Nightborne who got displaced in a time bubble by Elisande and developed new features and mastery, their numbers increase when Elisande guides this group back out of time phase, and sides with them on the horde.. Their philosophy continues that of the city Nightborne loyalists we saw in 7.0, they have new styles (no longer Suramar or kaldorei civilization) but like the Naga's architecture would have some degree of resemblance while being different enough. Players can choose to be their existing Nightborne models or the new customisations the chrono enhanced Nightborne bring with them.

I mean this is not the only way they can alter the Nightborne that stay on the horde away from those in the kaldorei empire vein that will re-join the alliance and revert to their night elf forms, but it's one. they could do many interesting things. And should

But if they don't, so what, we'll continue playing, I think wow would be lesser for not making those changes, and I believe the are the most effective way of doing it, but they don't have to and might not, and if they don't, I'd just keep playing as is. They are not obligated to do better or do the best if they don't want to, they have to choose to want to take their game further.. in TBC they were motivated to, because the game was new and ascending, 8 expansions later, that desire and enthusiasm might no longer be there, in which case we'll just wait for the slow but inevitable demise and the lack of interest in tackling deeper and bigger systemic issues like this.

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Being proud of their Thalassian ancestry does not really mean they need to be connected to Quel'thalas. Quel'dorei who founded Quel'thalas were also exiles who wanted to forge their own way in the world.

Possible ren'dorei story:
Void elves are given opportunity to move into Duskwood, which has been destabilized in Legion. They take over abandoned Darkshire and rebuild it in thalassian fashion, but with their own shadowy twist. They call their this settlement New Silvermoon. On Raven's Hill Cemetery, ren'dorei found potent rifts of the Void, probably opened by Natalie Seline herself, which seep Void to the land and taint it with the shadow. Void Elf magisters build modified arcane sanctums which helps to contain these void energies and allows them to channel them. They expand into Deadwind Pass and turn their eyes toward mysterious Karazhan and secrets hidden in the tower. Grateful to the Crown of Stormwind for territory they were given, void and high elves now safeguard boarders of Duskwood and Deadwind pass from troll threat of Strangethorn Vale and Horde presence in Swamp of Sorrows.

In this version, void elves find new focus, new goals, but they still don't forget their homeland. They just don't need to be part of it anymore. They have their new home now.

True, that could work very well. I'd have them in the badlands instead though. Alternatives could also include Stormheim. Ofc if the high elves return to the alliance, the void elves could always have Voidholme (Deatholme remodelled) and the Ghostlands becoming the void lands where they have a protective void watch over the region of Quel'thalas to protect the Sunwell from void incursions, but sufficiently far away from the Sunwell physically so as not to cause any destabilising effect).

They have so many options. Voidstar city would be a good name fr their new city, I quite fancy the void elves going larger on the deep space, void space theme, it has a symmetry to the kaldorei's star theme - especially if the Highborne get developed and the Nightborne return to the kaldorei as night elves healed by the Arcan'dor - a silver star themed group of Highborne friends with the void star themed void elves could be an interesting development and interaction. Ofc void elves can have links also to the priesthood of Elune's Black moon sect, it's shadow pain mistresses, and even have some ties to their druids especially if they work with druids to protect the Emerald dream and/or remove the void influences where possible.

there is so much room fro growth and collaboration.

The way I see it, the high elves could develop into that friends of humanity role they largely play, while the void elves could be the branch that explores a more unique interaction both with a new force like the void and with the kaldorei, leaving the high elves and humans to mainly interact. but void elves would have human interaction off course, but then Alleria could be come a high elf and void elf leader spending her time between the high elves, void elves and humans, nothing to say each alliance race won't have representation in Stormwind though they have homes elsewhere. I don't see Alleria sitting and ruling in Silvermoon or Voidstar city she'd be more into pushing frontiers going on dangerous missions and involved in Alliance leadership as a representative of her race rather than actually leading her race. It's likely a Sunstrider heir or a high elven Halduron or High elven Lor'themar would lead the High elves, while Umbric would lead the Void elves and a new title in alliance leadership for Alleria as the Thalassian representative.

I love thinking of possibilities and imagining what they could do.

Blood elves should not leave Silvermoon. They thought really hard to restore their kingdom, they deserve to keep it. If anything, the most logical way for Silvermoon is to become neutral, which would still allow Horde presence here. It is highly unlikely though and to be honest, I'm not that much interested in Silvermoon anymore, as long as void elves get their own place and their own narrative focus. Both blood and void elves belong to the Azeroth, so I would not like blood elves being kicked out to Netherstorm, or void elves dwelling in Telogrus for all eternity.

If there would be a change in the way how blood elves are portrayed to bring them closer to the Horde, then Silvermoon should change as well to reflect that... but it better stay in the hands of its people.

Well, I agree with you , the way it happens is that the blood elves in Silvermoon decide to end their mourning and return to being high elves. Part of this is triggered by their decision to not want to be in the horde at all. After Garrosh then Sylvanas, the actions against Teldrassil, the general character, direction of the horde, it really isn't them, then ofc Alleria's constant efforts to bring her people back together under the Alliance banner - constant courtship from humans, then Highborne on the alliance side, Draenei - and just generally feeling more in common and more likeness with the opposing faction without needing to remain, it happens naturally.

These ones aren't giving up anything, they're just giving up on the horde and choosing to call themselves high elves again. The way they see it, Sin'dorei was a mourning period, there is new hope for their people, and people like Alleria and others remind them more of that - it also helps that the horde actions are still very much against their mentality and ideology.

this is very easy because blizzard has kept them very high elven - and this is what makes it so plausible and easy . If they had been converted to the more bad boy ruthless anti-hero blood elves, that would have been hard to swallow.

Not every blood elf choose to return to being high elves, just those in Silvermoon and Quel'thalas living in high society. there are blood elves, like Lorash who hate races like the Night elves, and those who resent humanity and have developed a blood thirst and savagery for killing similar to the horde races, but these don't say in Silvermoon or Quel'thalas, and are often found in horde campaigns complicit with the actions, ofc when news comes of Quel'thalas' change, they don't go along with it.

It also helps that the very forsaken and Sylvanas who had helped them turned really really bad, but then, blizzard could now reveal all the misgivings most of the Quel'thalas populace had about the undead, afterall, it was not flesh and blood humans that destroyed Quel'thalas in WC3, but undead ones, this was always going to be harder to swallow than working with humans like Anduin who seem to really want them back.


Look I'm not saying this is what they'll do or anything like that, but it's like the story already has itself written, it's easy to see this happen.

I'm not that much interested in Silvermoon anymore, as long as void elves get their own place and their own narrative focus.

You may not be interested in Silvermoon, I'm not interested in high elves, I quite like void elves because they give me something different, but none of this changes the fact that many alliance players are interested in both high elves and Silvermoon and none of this changes my opinion that this move would be very good for the alliance and boost its numbers as well as balance out the horde and alliance thematically as well as player number wise. It would be healthy for the game all around.

My haters really don't understand me and don't understand my motives, they have oversimplified my motivations, and generalised me, and just switched off their brains from considering this because of their disdain. I can't do anything about that. I'll just state my points and everyone is free to agree or disagree for their reasons, but they shouldn't get offended if they fail to persuade me because their arguments aren't convincing enough.

If there would be a change in the way how blood elves are portrayed to bring them closer to the Horde, then Silvermoon should change as well to reflect that... but it better stay in the hands of its people

Yes, Silvermoon changing to reflect that would be an acceptable option, but I think overall it would serve the alliance better if Silvermoon went alliance, and the blood elves that didn't return to high elves later on build something new somewhere else that's very different. Netherstorm in Outland would have been perfect - but they could do the same in Azshara zone on Kalimdor or Bloodmyst isles.

Both blood and void elves belong to the Azeroth, so I would not like blood elves being kicked out to Netherstorm, or void elves dwelling in Telogrus for all eternity.

Believe it or not, I would have the new blood elves dominate Azshara, control Bloodmyst/Azuremyst and dominate Netherstorm and half or hellfire peninsular - I'd have them in both, they can become powerful and very different from how they are now.

what these hordies may not realise, is that because the blood elves are so alliance themed atm, as essentially high elves it is making it very hard for them to play major roles or stronger roles in the horde story, because their dominance or further influence would just swallow up the main horde theme. in order to fixt that you need blodo elves being less high elven/alliance and become something that is much closer and relatable to the horde even if they look different and they are more advanced/fancy in their architecture, but they should not feel high elven and thus not feel alliancey.. This is imperative - it will be good for their advancement and development and for the horde and for the alliance (for the alliance because it allows the high elves to be re-established)

And the re-establishment of the high elves would be good - i think it would facilitate a boost in all alliance elves - better writing and better presentation - high elves, void elves, night elves and Highborne night elves would get significant developments given their popularity - and this would boost alliance numbers enough. Elves need to shine on the alliance, and all things high elven, night elven (Highborne or not)