Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[HateTrain]

I think that's as good a reason as any. Blood elves don't need to have that alliance identity, in fact, initially they were given a new one, but snapped back to high elves.

The devs can ultimately do what they want, but if they are considering making the alliance desirable and attractive and restoring faction original themes, identity and dichotomy in that or so "heart of warcraft" that's what they need to do.
Orcs can befriend humans, elves can grow madly in love with trolls, they can do what the hell they want.. They are the ones that want two distinct factions and want their game based on that system. They expanded it to four in WC3, then cut it back down to two.

They have the alliance meaning one thing, and the horde meaning another. They only took the blood elves to the horde to help with numbers, not to change their philosophy of who the horde as or who the alliance was... except that action has affected it somewhat.

Well now the horde no longer needs that alliance race presence for it's numbers.. so why is it still there? If Warcraft is still about these two factions, then in order to make it work properly they need to fix this issue we have here.

But it's not the only reason, the alliance now needs the numbers, and it would also receive the boost it needs by bringing the high elves back properly. As for the blood elves, they would benefit in many ways, a new direction has many advantages, it allows them to be clearly different form their high elf past, allows them to fit more in with the horde, no need to suppress them in the narrative of the horde because they're no "horde" enough or rather too alliancey.

And you can do new things with them, this was after all the very reason they were coined in WC3. They weren't made to be high elves and now there is need for them to embrace a different direction.


Going Forward With the Factions and the Elves -
for the good of the Alliance, the Improvement of the Horde and the Good of the Game.


The horde really doesn’t need the prettiest aspects of the alliance, nor the alliance high elven and night elven cultures and their lifestyle, cities etc, but the alliance really does.

You the savage, beast, noble savage, cool beast are all hugely popular now more so than they were in the 90s and early00s when far more people looked down on such things, now everyone wants to be the man with calls, and doesn’t mind being the monster – or the bad boy, especially if you make it look cool and give it cool things.

Classic shows that without blood elves, the horde is holding its population, so I very much don’t think the horde will spiral or be crippled to an unsustainable level if most of the NPC blood elves in Quel’thalas return to the alliance as high elves and Suramar also goes night elven.
Meanwhile the horde continues to have the cool monster, primal majestic civilizations like the Zandalari can arrive in new variations like the Arrakoa, the Drakkari, Amani, a new Orc/ogre stronghold city.

And blood elves can take on a more horde centric personae and development. people found Illidari blood elves, San’layn, and Darkfallen elves quite cool – these are really nothing like high elves, nor are Naga or Felborne anything like the Night elves they once were.

Finally, you do realise the blood elves are being held back on the horde precisely because they are so alliance like – it’s not that they are not-horde like, it’s because they’re very alliance seeming, so it’s hard to make them more prominent in the story being so alliance, they will be immediate beneficiaries of this move, and can actually, once they are developed into something unrelated to their alliance themed racial past, actually play far more visible role in horde stories.

How you Proceed

At his stage of the game, with void elves, skin tones, the history and need to revitalise the alliance, blizzard should give high elves in full. The fact that blood elves will have the same model ofc doesn’t help going in the distinction direction – but like Pandaren, it’s already here. Just like we won’t remove blood elves form begin playable to fix the system, so to we won’t stop high elves from coming in fully because of model similarities, as it’s already there.

What we will instead do is adjust narrative and perception to make the two as distinct as possible in other very noticeable and visible ways.
Blood Elves
1. Blood elves new direction that is very different from high elves
2. 2. Blood elves get new architecture and established in new zones
3. Blood elves will get new customisable options for their models to reflect new powers. These will be optional, but they will give alterations to the model that will alter the silhouette somewhat and make the model look different enough – you can still choose to let your blood elf look like it is now, but the idea is that the alterations new lore and features would be cool enough to captivate many blood elf players to using them. Blood lf NPcs will have the new looks, but a small handful, like 1 in 20 would have no new features.
Nightborne:
They are already looking different enough from Night elves. When Suramar goes neutral or back to the alliance, the Nightborne in there have all pretty much been transformed to Night elves, while a few decide to halt the Arcan’dor’s healing process to keep their new form, this is far more common amongst Nightborne who refused to join the alliance. These Nightborne believe conquest is the Shal’dorei’s destiny, their rightful place (as you heard from loyalist NPCs in Suramar), and were not repulsed by the War of Thorns genocide, unlike the vast majority of the city state. A necessary pragmatic and shrewd decision to win a war.

To this effect, the Nightborne changes are largely in the story that show the development of how the Nightborne that stay on the horde depart from their kaldorei Suramar life they’ve known and becomes something else as they embrace their magic.

1. Nightborne new direction is very different from thee kaldorei pre-sundering civilization nobility and benevolence that Thalyssra exuded in 7.0
2. Nightborne get new architecture (could be merged with Naga or with blood elves’ new one) and they are established in their own corner (my suggestion is Desolace)
3. Nightborne will also get new customisation options to show case new powers and developments but it’s not as important as it is for the blood elves.

Equal Shares on Alliance and Horde:
The way it will end up game wise, only two models are shared... The High elf model (with high and void elves on alliance, blood on horde) and the Pandaren.
Pandaren would be heavily skewed horde, which means most of the Pandaren will lean towards the horde, and a few would lean towards the alliance. This is already evident in the quest chains in Pandaria anyway, the horde get a much better intro and explanation, the stronger bond is forged with Lorewalker Cho and the horde hero. Chen Stormstout has far more bonding with Vol’jin, the troll and the horde than the alliance. The Pandaren, while not a horde culture, are definitely a unique culture, rich, and majestic, and so fit the horde better. Their animal appearance, while cute lends more to the horde too.

The horde’s diversity is mis no longer because it has horde and alliance themed races but more like it has humanoid and furry types.

The Thalassians on the other hand are skewed heavily to the alliance, with most of the celebrity, history, assets of the high elves on the alliance. The horde does retain blood elves, but they are a small group and eventually advance in areas unique form the high elves. As do the San’layn and fel elves with them.

The Night elves are also heavily alliance. But while Suramar returns, the models are still separate, with the skinnier Nightborne model only exclusive to the horde, and the more medium build healthier model exclusive to the alliance. Suramar is still alliance though, but most t of the Nightborne there have become Night elves again, to them Shal’dorei is a unique Suramar caste, like Highborne is caste, not a race. The Arcan’dor fully reversed these guys back to their night elven form, but while the process was happening they got much closer to alliance races including their kaldorei kin on the island, the Highborne from Eldre’thalas now helping the alliance, the human and high elven wizards of Dalaran, and they took great interest in the void a topic that Highborne Shen’dralar are known to have studied, void elves love, half of the Order of Elune is re-acquainted with and the druids are very interested in to help protect the emerald dream. The pursuit of knowledge, the overwhelming level of kinship and then their restoration to the night elves, just ended up resulting in most of the city having more business with the alliance.

It didn’t help that Quel’thalas turned blue too, so most of their friends on the horde were now high elves on the alliance, and finally, the actions of Sylvanas during BFA, especially the war of thorns had shattered both the confidence and turst the Nightborne had of the horde, many argued that they should no longer have anything to do with the horde as this faction did not represent their value.

Seeing that they had received most of the help from their night elven kin during the Suramar conquest both the islanders and the Darnassian contingent and the majority of the blood elven army that had helped out were now calling themselves high elves and allying with the alliance... they followed suit. Many had felt joining one faction was rush they were uncomfortable, some felt it was wrong not to be on the side of aiding their kaldorei kin

So, the Suramar elves once Nightborne, are now Night elven again, the Shal’dorei Night elves, they are marked by arcane tattoos, glowing hands and arcane features to their hair that comes in 3 types, electrified strands of silver, bright purple and pink purple. A 3rd option is added to the night elf hair accessory, and that’s stars, signifying the kaldorei of the stars – so you can choose either vines, arcane strands or stars for your hair.

The Arcan’dor process can be magically halted or stalled, but most people who are in Suramar love their original night elven appearance, a few prefer the new Nightborne look, so retain it, but this is not accessible to alliance players.

Some a few number of Nightborne much preferred the horde, It’s character and its strength and have ambitions of ruling or controlling it anyway, they choose to remain with the horde and also attempt to restore Elisande, whiles Elisande isn’t enemy, this is viewed as hostile and they get banned from the city, but they succeed in that task, and this is part of a long storyline over 1 or 2 expansions that will see the horde Nightborne make new developments distinctive and different from their Suramar and Night elven past. They consider themselves the true Nightborne, and the name slowly comes to be exclusive to them. Their race is the Shal’dorei. While the city Shal’dorei are Night elves now, Highborne Shal’dorei night elves or just Shal’dorei night elves if they weren’t Highborne.

Potential Advances and Sub races:

Alliance:
High elves allied race in the Return of the high elves (none glowing eye options added to the Thalassian model)
Emerald Dream Worgen Night elf allied race in the Rise of the Kaldorei, in addition arcane customisations to represent Suramar Nightborne who regain their kaldorei form by the Arcan’dor (new arcane tattoos, and star and arcane hair options in addition to vines, glowing hands options). The new worgen are half night elf half animal with features that correspond to their enhanced form. 3 enhanced forms are customisable a wolf man (new worgen model) a bird man (modelled on the harpy) and a Panther man (modelled after the Zul’Gurub High priestess Arlokk/Bethekk and the Saberon), a bear man (modelled after the Guardian druid mage tower bear form Artifact appearance)

Horde:
Forest and Ice Trolls – loss of Quel’thalas/Silvermoon and Suramar precipitate the gain of Zul’drak, Zul’Aman, Zul’Farak and the playable bulkier model of troll.
San’layn/Darkfallen blood elf customisations – to represent one of the shifts in the blood elf (red eyes, Dk undead skins), more developments to come.
Mogu become a playable allied race in part of a story that sees the growth of horde and Pandaren relationships, in addition Tauren get Yaungol face and skin tones customisations. Rajaani Mogu, Huojin Pandaren and Yaungol form and extended unity that brings a new degree of stability to pandaren, winning many Pandas over to the horde, the Tushui Pandaren allied with the alliance.

Let’s be Frank and Honest
Despite all the advantages blood elves and the horde may get, and the ones the alliance may get, some of you may still not want this because it’s just not what you want. You lie the blood elves in this high elf mode, and I totally understand that.

I can’t force you to change what you like nor what you want. I ‘ve only presented a picture of how things good be different and better for many things to do with the game. By just affecting those two alliance races on the horde.

It’s not a popularity contest, , I am convinced that things will be better all round for everyone, better than it is with high elves and their culture sitting on the horde or night elven civilization sitting on the horde – as much as you have come to be use to it, it’s broken and it isn’t good for Warcraft in the theme the devs like so much, and it is un-necessarily breaking the game.

At the end of the day, the horde only needs the models available to play, but there is so much more you can do with what remains after the high elves return to the alliance, it will be much healthier.

That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.

[Alanar]

Wow, that's a lot of derogatory comments in just 3.5 sentences. But ok, I will roll with it. I apologise for the attack, but it is very irritating to have people suggest a change in Alleria's model as if this is going to solve anything. It will not, I guarantee you that. We have reached a point in WoW's history that the game is getting too old to have such hair colour limitations in place. There have been no other races or classes introduced since mid-BFA. Many of us are getting bored, and we cling on the things that itch us the most. Since no other classes or races are out they might as well work hard on customizations. I suggested a blonde shade with dark navy blue highlights (like the Starcursed Voidstrider shiny wings part). How about that?

All fine, but honestly why is it annoying? Changing her hair color and actually changing that one thing solves two things.

1: she now looks like an actual Void Elf, like an actual representive.
2: Ash colors added to the void elves, uncluding white, black, grey. So you can actually be like her, but leaving blonde hair color for the blood elves.

Seems fair, this is not even my orginal idea, but some one here who tried to find middle ground. I mean you cant please both and this is only slighty changing alleria, but for the good on both sides. I mean why would this be such an issue, its not like she is suddenly bald, red eyes or changing genders. No, now she is still unique, but slighty ligher hair and the best part is that players are now able to look like her in a way that doesnt clash with myownlifeisthunder suggestion.

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That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.

It took way to long to even scroll down that essay, ignoring that.

[Tanaria]

That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.

Do yourself a favor and ignore the wall of headcanon.
He's been like this ever since the Nightborne went Horde.

[Eleann]

All fine, but honestly why is it annoying? Changing her hair color and actually changing that one thing solves two things.

1: she now looks like an actual Void Elf, like an actual representive.

I do not mind that Alleria changes to look more like a Void elf and less like a High elf. It is what happens to the playable characters that I am concerned about. It would be great to get a single shade of blonde, even with a void corruption highlight effect on it (which I would love). I really love blonde but I feel forced to either play Horde to achieve that, or just ignore blonde elfs. Void elves already have two shades of grey, so there shouldn't be more grey added. White/Black sounds fine, and I would actually compromise to let blonde go if we got a light pastel pink. But I really see nothing wrong with a single blonde shade with void corruption highlights.

[ravenmoon]

That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.

Yes you keep telling me that - you make a very convincing point.

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So let me get this straight. On one hand you are claiming Nightborne look too different to Nightborne NPCs and Thalyssra and they need a serious overhaul and update, and on the other you would much rather have Alleria's model changed instead of give High elf fans at least a single blonde hair option. That sounds pretty hypocritical to pass on as fair, doesn't it? You are clearly just another Blood elf superiority obsessed Horde who thinks Void Elves should be permanently stuck with blue and grey hair. And no, don't try to pass on to me that different shades of purple will do the trick, because they will not.


I have been playing this game for 13 years and have barely even touched the forums, but now that they gave us Void elves and light skins, even I have been teased by Blizzard to the extent that I cannot have any sleep fearing my Void Elf will be stuck with ugly hair colours for the rest of the history of WoW thanks to High elf opposers like you. If they did not want to give us High Elves they never should have given us Void Elves in the first place, and especially not the skins. Now that only some hair colours are missing it's like waving a bone in front of a dog! Will you just torture the dog and never hand him that bone?


And I suggest you go and open your own forum about Nightborne, because this is clearly a forum about High Elves last time I checked, and your complaints about Nightborne have no place in a High elf Megathread. Is it so difficult to understand that requests about different races should be placed in different forums and not in the same forum to bass other people requesting something??

Horde fans, but the irony of them fighting so hard to keep high elves - who would have thought the horde would want to high elves so badly and want to keep them.


Although ofc, many of these people are actually alliance fans who switched their toons as well as their hearts to the horde to be able to play the high elves. And now think that the high elves are glued to the horde and the alliance must not get them at all costs.

it's insane really, never mind that high elves continue on the alliance since WC3, albeit it in much smaller numbers. Never mind the void elves coming to be, never mind that everything, i mean everything about them, including their lands, culture, cities, ideals, lifestyle is Alliance through and through,

Yet all of a sudden otherwise intelligent people just become selectively dumb when it comes to them, because of that greedy desire to have something they like and love remain there.. that it, they think because they've been intelligent in the conversations that they can talk nonsense in this one and I'll still go for it.

No horde pals, don't care if you have seemed super intelligent in other topics and discussions, failure to see what's in front of you even when it's pointed out to you, tells on you, and does not persuade me.

[Alanar]

I do not mind that Alleria changes to look more like a Void elf and less like a High elf. It is what happens to the playable characters that I am concerned about. It would be great to get a single shade of blonde, even with a void corruption highlight effect on it (which I would love). I really love blonde but I feel forced to either play Horde to achieve that, or just ignore blonde elfs. Void elves already have two shades of grey, so there shouldn't be more grey added. White/Black sounds fine, and I would actually compromise to let blonde go if we got a light pastel pink. But I really see nothing wrong with a single blonde shade with void corruption highlights.

You mean.like double colors? It sounds interesting, could do with a very pale likeblonde and see the void corruption foming through, so you almost wble to achieve it, but still preserve that blood elf look. I think that is fair.

Ps: dont waste your time on ravenmoon is my advise, do what you will with it.

[Beloren]

That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.

Nothing wrong with what he says or wants, it's just not what I would like.

It may solve issues like alliance low moral and population, theme issues - but theme issues aren't actually issues from a certain point view.

Form the point of view of the horde and alliance being two alien entities to each other based on the original problems, then yes, Bleves/Nightborne are too alliance themed to be on the horde.. but only from that perspective. If you have redefined the horde into something that incorporates those elements then it's not really the original theme but a new one, that's neither good nor bad.. some will like the new one, some will like the old one..

The horde and alliance don't have to be super distinct, in fact there are a lot of us who feel that they should get rid off this dichotomy, because it's outdated, people should be able to pick whatever faction they want to play for and it shouldn't really matter. But even if they don't go all the way, they can go partially some of the way by making factions not matter that much - this is the direction we've been for a long time..why the rush to go back to the way things were or the heart of wow as they refer to it as?

Where is the proof that this is such a bad thing? This is what I have issue with what Ravenmoon is saying - he is suggesting a rather substantial shift, even if it's elf centric, for something that isn't that important.

[ravenmoon]

Where is the proof that this is such a bad thing? This is what I have issue with what Ravenmoon is saying - he is suggesting a rather substantial shift, even if it's elf centric, for something that isn't that important.

Anyone who started playing wow after TBC or did not play the original RTS and classic might not understand this, but Wow seems to have lost it's soul, this is not a good thing, and it's important enough to do something about even if we disagree on what.

To stay in the horde /alliance 2-faction system, and have it blurred or homogenised to the extent it has, has made a lot of things in wow lose it's mean, in particular the very founding faction s the game is based on - now if this is low priority or not important then have it your way. But I think the devs feel that this is what Warcraft is all about, and it's that charm that built it into the great franchise it is.

They could abandon it, but it will just become like every other product and lose it's most dear function...still, who's to say the replacement won't be better right? Well many think wow's premise is already lack lustre, and I'm telling you having alliance on the horde via the blood elves and Nightborne is one of the major causes of this.

Finally, I think the alliance low numbers is definitely something that is important, and warrants some serious effort to remedy. I don't think blood elves losing Silvermoon and Quel'thalas for big High elf return or Nightborne losing Suramar to catapult the rise of the kaldorei in order to put the alliance shining brightly on the map again is actually a big price to pay.

Blood elves are only losing some territory and the Nightborne a city essentially, the alliance is gaining a part of its core that its fans have always held dear and gaining strength and presence to its two most venerated elven races - the two races they talk about the most, the high elves and the night elves.

For restoring the alliance and repairing the faction theme, and the only cost is blood elves losing some land and Nightborne losing a city full of people in the narrative to the alliance? that's a tiny price to pay for a huge benefit - only the horde elf fanbois would be upset with it. If you ask me, this would do far much more than burning Teldrassil ever did. It won't just provide interesting drama, and a far less violent one too (if my suggestion of the ones in Quel'thalas not being murdered but instead returning tot heir high elf identity and the ones in Suramar having the Arcan'dor change most of them back to Night elves, simply drift into the arms of the alliance because of the sheer number of interest from Highborne, void elves, high elves, humans, draenei, gnomes etc that are much more like them.


Blood Elves Do Not Feel Horde - Too Alliance:

They may be signed up to the horde, but they couldn't feel less horde if you tried. And this is intentional, because blizzard wanted an alliance race of high elves on the horde to lure the alliance over...that's why the blood elves calmed down through the story of TBC and got "redeemed" into Light worshippers, and good ol high elf types. This is not horde-like at all, nor is that type of civilization or culture. The irony is that the Nightborne are even more benevolent, pretty much like the Kaldorei and Farondis Highborne types, Thalyssra and her Nightfallen rebellion lot hearkening back to the original nobility of the pre-sundering kaldorei - they fit much better on the alliance with both that attitude, culture, theme, civilization and aesthetic.

The horde quests are all about killing , showing a blood thirst of some sort, or desire to conquer and be strong. This doesn’t fit the Nightborne character or the Silvermoon/Quel’thalas type blood elves – they’re more likely to sneer at this and go, typical solve everything with a fist or axe – and look down on the senseless killing – this is a very alliance type attitude, because these race are entirely based on that.

The Nightborne and Blood elves were not designed for the horde, they were designed as the night elf sub race , a night elven people and the high elves.. blizzard even made the less alliance types like Kael'thas' Sunsworn and Elisande's Loyalists enemies different and apart from these playable types – and it’s funny how those are closer to the horde, though still a bit too alliance if you ask me.

Making the Blood Elves more Horde Like

Part of the development would be to make the blood elves and Nightborne that remain on the horde (i.e.t hose that don't return to being high elves and revert to being night elves from the Arcan'dor) feel more appropriate and fitting into the hordes theme, aesthetic and character even though they're going to be unique enough anyway. the main aim is that they don't feel alliance, so they lose the lands and architecture, character, theme, ideology, and all those things get modified to something cool but more fitting.

Here are some examples to draw from:

When I look at the 1. San’layn, or 2. the Illidari fel blood elves, I get a much different vibe from them, one that fits the horde a lot better and that doesn’t feel alliance. They don’t live in beautiful high arcane cities – there is an imposing dread about the fel elf architecture that’s legion based, and if the San’layn were to build something it would look like Revendreth and Castle Nathria – majestic and imposing but definitely not high elven and not associated with the alliance.

My solution for the Nightborne remnant would be either to join the blood elves, or have their fate tied to the naga, another elven off shoot that has very little in common with the alliance type kaldorei – Highborne or otherwise. This is the direction they need to go.

Night elves did not feel less night elven for losing Teldrassil or Darnassus, Blood elves will not feel less blood elven either for losing Silvermoon, also if the blood elves shift back to the more bad boy elf, closer to the likes of
1. Illidari anti-hero types - basically the demon hunter customisations open up to a range of classes with new Orders for Warlocks and hunters replacing the old high elven Farstrider types and
2. San’layn vampire types as well - a lot of these in the new Farstrider replacement order as well as a rogue order. They also lead the blood mage
3. Blood Crystal Kael'thas Sunsworn types, this would be better .
4. Nethertouched Blood elves - without the Sunwell, those who thirst for magic employ the nether - and instead of going wretched, they gain some awesome new customisations.
5. old school high elf type - this is what should be next to none existence, however some blood elves hold on to that, few and far between, but they are available for players who want to model their blood elf after the Quel'thalas populace type, based on the high elves.

I think people will like the blood elves becoming more hard core it is a development that fits the horde and feels tougher – it hs been my observation fans haven’t liked how high elven the blood elves have become too pussy like.

People did not like them changing the night elves into passive human lovers – and while we can argue that the night elves were always benevolent from the lore if you actually bothered to read the texts and the books (and not just play WC3), they clearly had a tough ruthless side that had a moment in WC3, so that change in wow wasn’t welcome, partly because the hardcore side of night elves wasn't shown (rather than blizzard making them something they were not), and changing the Darnassian Kaldorei wasn’t necessary too, not while the night elves have the Highborne/Moonguard side of them that fits with the civilization and arcane magic themes of the alliance to draw from, they could and still can just use the Suramar restored night elves and Highborne Moonguard types to be the ones more involved with humanity and alliance culture, these Highborne/Moonguard types are after all the foremost in this sort of thing according to the lore, as their civilization is magically advanced.. so blizzard has a duality in the night elves to exploit, the more isolationist xenophobic seeming long vigil type druids and hunter priests, and the high civilization advanced arcane magic type Highborne/Moonguard and temple priests. But this is the lore of the Night elves, having half that on the horde in the Nightborne doesn’t make it any less night elven or alliance. What it does to is make the horde feel more alliance, and the lack of this part of the night elves on display on the alliance, makes the horde look more attractive to alliance type players luring them over, as well as making the night elves look like the lesser group. A night elf race having both pre-sundering magic/civilization types interacting with humans/gnomes/dwarves and high elves as well as more isolationist forest benevolent types that you use for wilderness type settings makes the race feel more alive, more complete and more importantly more based on it's lore.

However all these aspects are all alliance based. Suramar, kaldorei civilization, benevolent noble elves, Elune worshipping priests or Light wielding believers, botanists or druids with magical science and faith, high society civilization and gentil character - all of that stuff is alliance. When it sits on the horde characterising the Nightborne, it is quite clear the Nightborne don't feel horde, to those who remember the original horde, and to those who pay attention to the tone of the quests.

Take wow, despite the old guys being what they are, most horde quests are pretty savage and brutal, full of blood lust, revenge, rage, conquest, and a sense of honour that is orc based (think klingon from star trek), and not alliance like at all. Then you come to the blood elves and Nightborne and you get this very alliance type/behaving group - it's not unique. it may be unique to the horde, but it's not unique because it's 100% alliance.



Therefore the horde ones have to change to keep the distinction and their assets and NPc population returning to the alliance would boost it.

Blood elves don’t just have to have one theme, just like the night elves have several in the pre-sundering and long vigil groups , so too can the blood elves. Blood elves keep the starting experience off course, it just becomes phased like the Worgen and Goblin ones. you can return to the timeline via a Chromie visit. And enjoy Silvermoon all you want.


High Elves Return
So, the solution is the high elven aspects of the blood elves, simply become officially high elven again. And it's done in a glorious spectacular style to raise the profile of the alliance.

They return as an official allied race, no need to make void elves have full high elven appearances. I recommend the story be done in a very alliance way, through reasoning, diplomacy that highlights the conflict in ideologies and character of the horde and alliance that prompts the blood elves in Quel'thalas to decide they're high elven, this is their identity and that Sin'dorei was not a change in their race or philosophy, but a period of mourning which has now ended.

There is no slaughter of blood elves by the alliance and military capturing of Quel'thalas, the reason we have lots of high elves is because the blood elves in Quel'thalas chose to return to being high elves.

not every blood elf agreed, some love the horde, love the blood lust, love the power and despised the high elven way, these remain loyal to the horde and continue to call themselves blood elves, in time we get to see them branching intensely into blood crystal magic, fel magic, bolstering their numbers with the Darkfallen and San'layn, and harnessing the Nether, they get a different style of architecture too that reflects these changes - think Crystal song forest, think legion, think Castle Nathria, with elements of Silvermoon - the result is a unique new style, that looks impressive, and powerful - not the delicate beauty of Silvermoon- that's alliance now, but it's replacement is just as stunning and majestic in a stronger more ruthless way. Some still carry the gentler touch of the old ways, but they are far fewer, enough to allow players who like that to roleplay, but not dominate the landscape of the blood elves.

Meanwhile we see the high elves return. They are no push overs, you see much more of the Farstriders, the magisters and the priests become the face of the light rather than the Paladins. Silvermoon gets its update as blue returns, the magisters colour is blue, the Farstriders green, and the royal guard red.

• high elves areas of focus are:
• Arcane magic - mainly the frost and fire department
• Sun magic - solar magic fire is a pursued development from their time as blood elves.
• A lot of sun focus too
• Farstriders - your bow slinging wood elf Legolas trope in force here

Blizzard need to show these guys off in all the ways the fans love and desire of high elves.

[Eleann]

You mean.like double colors? It sounds interesting, could do with a very pale likeblonde and see the void corruption foming through, so you almost wble to achieve it, but still preserve that blood elf look. I think that is fair.

Yeah exactly thank you. I think that will satisfy both sides to an extent. Just one blonde with those void corruption highlights similar to starcursed voidseeker mount wings.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

I'm so happy Blizzard won't give the Alliance, Quel'Thalas and do the Horde out of not being the first ones to see a revamped Quel'Thalas for the Horde and the Blood Elves.

[ravenmoon]

I'm so happy Blizzard won't give the Alliance, Quel'Thalas and do the Horde out of not being the first ones to see a revamped Quel'Thalas for the Horde and the Blood Elves.

What's funny is that I suspect if they did, you'd just shrug your shoulders and visit it with your alliance toon to check it out.

It would likely have some big raid anyway involved with it to justify the revamp, so both sides will see loads of it, - at most all you lose is bragging rights for it, you'd realise , if you stay with the blood elves, that pretty much not much has changed, until they develop the blood elves further - in whatever direction, super arcane spirit elves or whatever - you might like em both.

You might end up having a high elf toon, a blood elf toon, a night elf, a Nightborne and a void elf and enjoy all the things they all offer.

[Tanaria]

What's funny is that I suspect if they did, you'd just shrug your shoulders and visit it with your alliance toon to check it out.

It would likely have some big raid anyway involved with it to justify the revamp, so both sides will see loads of it, - at most all you lose is bragging rights for it, you'd realise , if you stay with the blood elves, that pretty much not much has changed, until they develop the blood elves further - in whatever direction, super arcane spirit elves or whatever - you might like em both.

You might end up having a high elf toon, a blood elf toon, a night elf, a Nightborne and a void elf and enjoy all the things they all offer.

I do enjoy my blood elf toons and nightborne toons on the Horde, with everything they've got.

I mean, the alternative is them being basking in "Human Potential." If you like your elves basking in such, nobody is stopping you from being Alliance...I on the other hand, prefer being as distant from that as I can possibly get - with Silvermoon and Suramar on the side of the Horde. Where they rightfully belong.

And you should really be the one who has to wait for his alliance elves to be changed. You've got Void Elves (Helfs aren't playable), and they suit being the opposite faction to Silvermoon. You might like the changes to Night Elves...but you'll have to wait for them.
Blood Elves and Nightborne can remain as they are, on the Horde. Night Elves should either change or they lose all of their lands, to compensate for the Horde Elves losing theirs.

We'll rename Ashenvale: "Felo'Thalas" and Eldre'Thalas can be kept the same. The Well of Eternity and the Sunwell, since the Magisters must teleport the Sunwell Plateau to Ashenvale, because Alliance Elves are dangerous...that'll be a huge boon to the Horde Elves. Alliance has the cities, Horde has the founts of power. Blood Elves and Nightborne can use the powers of both wells to create a powerful shield that protects Kalimdor from the Alliance so night elves can't retake their lands on Kalimdor...ever.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I think that's as good a reason as any. Blood elves don't need to have that alliance identity, in fact, initially they were given a new one, but snapped back to high elves.

Honestly I don't know how else to put that the premise that "elves are alliance coded" is nonsense. Again, your whole argument is based on nonsense parameters that you decided, based on an insultingly reductive notion of themes and aesthetics that WoW has spent more than a decade to add nuance to.

Blood Elves have been part of the Horde for longer they have been part of the Alliance; the Horde has existed for longer with Blood Elves in it than not. This obsession to what Horde and Alliance themes SHOULD be is bordering on some pretty questionable ideas about traditionalism; beyond that, you are unable to accept, or even understand, that the factions evolve with time -as they should if there is an attempt at verosimilitude-

It's as if you can't compute that your idea of what the factions should be doesn't line up at all with what Blizzard has been doing for over a decade and a half.

Well now the horde no longer needs that alliance race presence for it's numbers.. so why is it still there? If Warcraft is still about these two factions, then in order to make it work properly they need to fix this issue we have here.

And this is the main problem with all your endless arguments; your premise is simply flawed by saying "elves are an alliance race", faction is not intrinsic to a population. There's nothing to fix; canonically, the kingdom of Quel'thalas has been part of the Horde for longer than part of the Alliance, so the you try this weirdly traditionalist metanarrative approach that because HE's were introduced as members of the alliance, the are inherently alliance, disregarding all in universe motivations.

Blood Elves were sent to the Horde for very practical reasons in terms of Balance, but the narrative was tailored for that outcome -much like how an actor is not available and their absence is written around on a show- We have to accept many lore choices come from beyond the narrative itself, but you don't get to decide what is valid or not, you don't get to decide HE's are inherently alliance because aesthetics and themes and that BE should not be part of the Horde anymore.

There are just so many, may things wrong with your arguments, and IDEK at this point; does it all stem from a monolithic traditionalism because WoW dared to be subversive and give the Horde -made of "the monstrous races"- the prettiest race? Is all of this just based on a shallow and regressive cookie cutter fantasy ideal?

All that it's clear is that your view and WoW's view seem to be intrinsically at odds.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone who started playing wow after TBC or did not play the original RTS and classic might not understand this, but Wow seems to have lost it's soul, this is not a good thing, and it's important enough to do something about even if we disagree on what.

The problem is that is you have appointed yourself as the one who truly knows what WoW's soul should be.

The other problem is that for some reason it is about the elves of all things.

- - - Updated - - -

Form the point of view of the horde and alliance being two alien entities to each other based on the original problems, then yes, Bleves/Nightborne are too alliance themed to be on the horde.. but only from that perspective. If you have redefined the horde into something that incorporates those elements then it's not really the original theme but a new one, that's neither good nor bad.. some will like the new one, some will like the old one.

But see, that's the biggest issue with Ravenmoon's "perspective", it just doesn't apply to the reality of the setting, because if one thing is pretty evident, is that Horde and Alliance have evolved from their inception, and now are seen as two political superpowers with contrasting ideologies -which gets brought up again and again, from the Pandaren faction choice, to the Nightborne joining the Horde-

It has already been redefined -to move forward from that simplistic original view- Do you really think it would even be worth it to backpedal that now? Warcraft has evolved considerably; Orcs used to be outright bad guys, but then the Horde was made sympathetic and it wasn't just about the good versus bad guys, then the factions were set up as the usual fantasy good guys against the monstrous races, but then BC came -and then CATA and so on- and shifted that paradigmn with elves to the horde and space goats to the alliance.

The paradigm has been shifted, and you have to ask yourself if it's even worth it to consider shifting it back. Do we loose nuance for a more simplistic but stronger sense of themes and identity? I don't think so; I think it's far more fitting if the factions explore their identity as political entities who believe in different things.

[ravenmoon]

Honestly I don't know how else to put that the premise that "elves are alliance coded" is nonsense. Again, your whole argument is based on nonsense parameters that you decided, based on an insultingly reductive notion of themes and aesthetics that WoW has spent more than a decade to add nuance to.

Blood Elves have been part of the Horde for longer they have been part of the Alliance; the Horde has existed for longer with Blood Elves in it than not. This obsession to what Horde and Alliance themes SHOULD be is bordering on some pretty questionable ideas about traditionalism; beyond that, you are unable to accept, or even understand, that the factions evolve with time -as they should if there is an attempt at verosimilitude-

It's as if you can't compute that your idea of what the factions should be doesn't line up at all with what Blizzard has been doing for over a decade and a half.



And this is the main problem with all your endless arguments; your premise is simply flawed by saying "elves are an alliance race", faction is not intrinsic to a population. There's nothing to fix; canonically, the kingdom of Quel'thalas has been part of the Horde for longer than part of the Alliance, so the you try this weirdly traditionalist metanarrative approach that because HE's were introduced as members of the alliance, the are inherently alliance, disregarding all in universe motivations.

Blood Elves were sent to the Horde for very practical reasons in terms of Balance, but the narrative was tailored for that outcome -much like how an actor is not available and their absence is written around on a show- We have to accept many lore choices come from beyond the narrative itself, but you don't get to decide what is valid or not, you don't get to decide HE's are inherently alliance because aesthetics and themes and that BE should not be part of the Horde anymore.

There are just so many, may things wrong with your arguments, and IDEK at this point; does it all stem from a monolithic traditionalism because WoW dared to be subversive and give the Horde -made of "the monstrous races"- the prettiest race? Is all of this just based on a shallow and regressive cookie cutter fantasy ideal?

All that it's clear is that your view and WoW's view seem to be intrinsically at odds.

- - - Updated - - -



The problem is that is you have appointed yourself as the one who truly knows what WoW's soul should be.

The other problem is that for some reason it is about the elves of all things.

- - - Updated - - -



But see, that's the biggest issue with Ravenmoon's "perspective", it just doesn't apply to the reality of the setting, because if one thing is pretty evident, is that Horde and Alliance have evolved from their inception, and now are seen as two political superpowers with contrasting ideologies -which gets brought up again and again, from the Pandaren faction choice, to the Nightborne joining the Horde-

It has already been redefined -to move forward from that simplistic original view- Do you really think it would even be worth it to backpedal that now? Warcraft has evolved considerably; Orcs used to be outright bad guys, but then the Horde was made sympathetic and it wasn't just about the good versus bad guys, then the factions were set up as the usual fantasy good guys against the monstrous races, but then BC came -and then CATA and so on- and shifted that paradigmn with elves to the horde and space goats to the alliance.

The paradigm has been shifted, and you have to ask yourself if it's even worth it to consider shifting it back. Do we loose nuance for a more simplistic but stronger sense of themes and identity? I don't think so; I think it's far more fitting if the factions explore their identity as political entities who believe in different things.

it's not that i don't realise. I do.

If blizzard want to embrace their "new direction" as you put it, that started in TBC because 1 alliance race went horde, then they should do that. Weigh the pros and cons

The pros is that it's easy to just keep on with that, the cons are that they will lose that original heart and distinctiveness Warcraft is based on. The choice is theirs.

if they wan to go back to that original heart, that dichotomy and distinctiveness of factions, then this is the way to do it, and I have listed a lot benefits this could yield , it will make things better and improve me the core - it's not a 100% guarantee success, but fi they put the effort in, it will yield results and breathe new life

Alternative just continue as is, homogenise everything, merge lots of things, let hose more and more distinctiveness but open factions and borders, as it is the factions barely mean anything cos they are so similar, why? cos half the alliance is on the horde through the blood elves and Nightborne a lot of people are okay with this, and like things as they are.. but as a developer you should not be okay with things being okay. your job is to make things the best to make them exciting, dynamic, meaningful you should be concerned about fixing your core, or your identity even if no one else is or none of your fans realise this or even care much.

They will play whatever you feed them, but I guarantee you, they'd be less and less drawn to you as it dulls. You can't discern this through metrics and statistics, but you can use metrics and statistics to provide evidence some degree of evidence.


If they want to restore that original heart of Warcraft, revive the theme and feel, make the alliance popular again to match with the horde, then they need to bring hte high elves back in properly and allow the kaldorei to rise again, as the first order of business, then also make changes and improvements that support the core theme, rather take away from it. i.e. no more alliance on horde.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

it's not that i don't realise. I do.

If blizzard want to embrace their "new direction" as you put it, that started in TBC because 1 alliance race went horde, then they should do that. Weigh the pros and cons

The pros is that it's easy to just keep on with that, the cons are that they will lose that original heart and distinctiveness Warcraft is based on. The choice is theirs.

if they wan to go back to that original heart, that dichotomy and distinctiveness of factions, then this is the way to do it, and I have listed a lot benefits this could yield , it will make things better and improve me the core - it's not a 100% guarantee success, but fi they put the effort in, it will yield results and breathe new life

Alternative just continue as is, homogenise everything, merge lots of things, let hose more and more distinctiveness but open factions and borders, as it is the factions barely mean anything cos they are so similar, why? cos half the alliance is on the horde through the blood elves and Nightborne a lot of people are okay with this, and like things as they are.. but as a developer you should not be okay with things being okay. your job is to make things the best to make them exciting, dynamic, meaningful you should be concerned about fixing your core, or your identity even if no one else is or none of your fans realise this or even care much.

They will play whatever you feed them, but I guarantee you, they'd be less and less drawn to you as it dulls. You can't discern this through metrics and statistics, but you can use metrics and statistics to provide evidence some degree of evidence.

And therein lies the flaw presented on your dichotomy, as if there could ONLY be a strong identity if there is a restriction of themes. It's for sure the easiest option, but that's by no means a good thing here; you are asking the setting to dumb itself down to have a stronger sense of identity. It's bonkers.

If they want to restore that original heart of Warcraft, revive the theme and feel, make the alliance popular again to match with the horde, then they need to bring hte high elves back in properly and allow the kaldorei to rise again, as the first order of business, then also make changes and improvements that support the core theme, rather take away from it. i.e. no more alliance on horde.

It's just so patently obvious that your goals are to have the "highborne" aesthetic and themes on the alliance it isn't even funny. If it was only about creating artificial distinction, then why not focus the alliance elves on their nature worshiping roots, and leave all the imperial classical fantasy to the blood elves and nightborne? because the most transparent thing here is that the classical imperial themes you oh so desire have never been part of the alliance identity.

When the High Elves were part of the alliance, it was with druidic/ranger themes, which then the NE continued. There's nothing about the elven empire themes that have ever been alliance, not even close.

If we were going to take your argument about exclusivity and identity seriously, then the answer is not removing BE's from the horde, but to clearly separate the NE and BE aesthetics; As it as always been, alliance elves would focus on nature themes, and blood elves + nightborne on the high fantasy magical imperial themes.

So no highborne on the alliance, NE and HE become entirely druidic, and BE and NB entirely arcane focused.

Makes far more sense than completely removing the BE's identity, no? But you wouldn't accept that, because we all know your argument lacks any actual integrity and does not exist at all for the sake of the game.

[FossilFree]

The damage to the faction identities has already been done, and I don't think it will be undone at this point. That being said, personally I always hated the idea of Blood Elves going to Horde in TBC. But it wasn't out of some jealous possessiveness about keeping them for Alliance, it was because it made Horde into Alliance 2.0 aka Red Alliance. I used to love playing Horde in vanilla, but that went down the pipes when the monster faction became the supermodel faction.

They should have made Blood Elves truly sinister, not this kinda fel but now kinda holy thing. Outcast followers of Kael'thas, scraping a living from the red dust of Outland, in a third faction of Blood Elves, Naga, and Broken. Just like they set up in The Frozen Throne WC3 expansion. Plus, Blood Elf shamans.

[ravenmoon]

And therein lies the flaw presented on your dichotomy, as if there could ONLY be a strong identity if there is a restriction of themes. It's for sure the easiest option, but that's by no means a good thing here; you are asking the setting to dumb itself down to have a stronger sense of identity. It's bonkers.

It is not a flaw, you just didn't read what I was saying carefully. Perhaps your scorn and disdain for me, resulted in you missing what I was actually saying. I've seen this happen a lot, when you simply dismiss people because you don't like them, you are disdainful of them, you judge and view them in the worse possible light, as unintelligent, you miss what they are saying. I have noticed there is a tendency, especially amongst Americans, to quickly judge a person based on something said in the past, then paint them with that brush constantly. Perhaps Americans are use to people never changing and read character or rather their impression on character over content. Usually this is a good metric to weight a persons words, however you don't know an online poster well enough to do so, and forum people do all the time. They get into an argument with one poster at some point, and they judge that poster continually in that fashion based on their character impressions after that one conversation - it's not like real life, when you have known the person in school for a long time or spent considerably more time and info on them to make that assessment, even then it's a bit judgey. But then people judge all the time and it doesn't take much..

This is not the ONLY way, but it is in my opinion the BEST way and by best I mean the easiest, least complicated, but potentially most rewarding way. I reckon you'd get the fastest and most effective results this way. That is an opinion.

i have made observations about the state of the game - observations I have provided basis for. The problems I have highlighted are well known issues, and the solutions I propose could definitely solve those problems, it makes sense they would. but as you observe they are not the only way. That has never been the point I was making. The point that it is the best way. We can debate whether that is true or not, however, even if it isn't the best way I can think of, it is a very good way to solve that.

Those who argue that it isn't a good way, seem to base this only on "not wanting to lose Quel'thalas and Suramar" - they haven't provided any convincing argument, but I understand they don't like it, because they don't want it. I have also noted that several times and stated I don't blame them or hold grudges against them for not liking it, it is expected that some wouldn't like this to change. But removing the alliance in the horde elves is still the best and most effective way to do this, and I don't think that wanting to keep Quel'thalas horde is a good enough reason to explore or force other more dangerous options.

Ofc it's not up to me, blizzard devs may like high elves on the red side enough to want to keep that no matter what, and will in fact even change the constitution of the factions and what they mean just to keep it horde. This off course is their right, but I've got to just wonder that they fell in love with the high elves on the red side so much they were willing to sacrifice what Warcraft was to keep it that way rather than simply move the high elf nation back and the night elf civilization onto the alliance and develop the blood elves and Nightborne into something different but just as cool. and in so doing restoring that integrity.

I just think that while they could do lots of other things, the most obvious, and simplest one is to take the alliance stuff back to the alliance, boosting the alliance that way, and fixing the faction disparity. But if not, fine continue in this more homogenised way, let the redefinition of the factions, especially the horde continue. Who says there has to be even a horde and alliance? They're changing so much as it is, in this current direction, soon the only thing originally Warcraft about them would be the names.

Now this

It's just so patently obvious that your goals are to have the "highborne" aesthetic and themes on the alliance it isn't even funny. If it was only about creating artificial distinction, then why not focus the alliance elves on their nature worshiping roots, and leave all the imperial classical fantasy to the blood elves and nightborne? because the most transparent thing here is that the classical imperial themes you oh so desire have never been part of the alliance identity.

Because I want the Highborne stuff, which is kaldorei properly on the alliance and disagreed with the Nightborne going horde, quite vocally, and all that doesn't mean that I'm wrong about what I say, regardless of what my motive is.

As it stands right now, having just as many night elf and void elf toons as I do Nightborne and blood elf, toons. You can be sure i don't hate the horde.. i don't have that fan partisanship and my conclusions about this are actually based on the health of the game.. I've always thought it terrible how rubbished the alliance was made to prop up the horde.. people who read those statements, especially partial partisan minds, assume that me saying this means I am an alliance fan - they just can't fathom that a neutral person can look at the game and say.. the alliance is been thrown under the us, because they are so partisan, they can only see things in terms of enemy.. so naturally the horde ones will disagree with anything pro alliance I say.

i have never been in support of the night elves joining the alliance, my Highborne focus has been entirely on restoring the night elves not the alliance. I will tell you what you may fail to notice about me, but i like things in the game making sense and being good. i like things being consistent. And to me, that means the high elves (incl the blood elves in the behaviour and culture they are currently presented as) are alliance, this is what the original alliance and it's core is made up of the civilization and culture , attribute of the humans, high elves and dwarves.

You can't take the core alliance race over to the horde forever and not expect to change the face and structure on what these factions mean.

The Nightborne are incivdedentally, they are the part of the kaldorei that is the most alliance themed i.e. the pre-sundering night elven civilization and empire. If the night elves were their own faction, they and all things pre-sundering night elf, would be an important part of the diversity and complexity for a faction leading race like the night elves were originally designed to be, but without other factions they are alliance too in that vein they are presented in. You don't get more benevolent, kaldorei nobility type than you do in Thalyssra and her Nightfallen group who are supposed to represent the true heart of the Suramar population a night elven populace over 10,000 years old reclaiming their original noble heritage (as stated by the q - this is once more alliance character, alliance themed civilization (the night elf one now) again on the horde.

I don't think this good not because i am an alliance fan or a Highborne obsessed, but because it is ruining the core of the game (but you may prefer the word change to ruin - same thing, if changed the new core would not be the same as the old, the old would be ruined). The alliance has been portrayed so poorly in the last 12 years, it makes the series worse, this isn't good either. I know blood elves going horde had a good reason - it was to fix numbers - not to redefine the factions, and I know building up the horde was to change it's perception - so that it would be more popular and desirable, not specifically to make it more alliance - making it more alliance was the way they thought it would achieve those goals.

As such the other side was bad, and this is never good, when one faction just seems naff than the other, you might have feel good for being horde but it isn't challenging or rewarding when your opposition is so silly.. none of these things are good.

Knowing the motive and reasoning for blood elves being on the horde and the change in direction - my point has been, it's already achieved what it set out to do, which was make the horde more popular and playable, it wasn't intended to change the fabric and constitution of the horde that was a side effect, and one that isn't particularly good, nor bad, (either) I acknowledge, but the it isn't really what Warcraft is about and the charm of the original state is lost, so it is worth removing that side effect, restoring the heart of Warcraft .

Off course they can disagree and keep things as is, but I don't feel "as is" is anywhere near as compelling as before.. not in this current format anyway.

It is a sub-optimal state for the factions currently, but it is also transitional. The factions can't stay like this nor will they, you can either restore them to the original core or continue to evolve them into something new - a world where horde and alliance are more abstract entities with only minor ideological differences, having only cosmetic distinctions providing a superficial but visual semblance of difference/distinction, to the extent that this will result the realisation their need to separate the players would become irrelevant and they would remain only a lore /story device element - either because players will be able to choose their faction regardless of race or players will be able to group , guild and raid together regardless of faction.


It's one of the two developments. This current state is sub-optimal to either .. you may like things to stay as they are, but the faction separation stance of today is better with the horde and alliance more distinct and after their original premise... and if you think that progressing the current trend is better like Beloren does, then the end result is more homogenised factions or to a larger extent factions become meaningless to gameplay. then it won't matter how many people horde or alliance have.

They must choose which they want. Not you or I, they must decide whether it's worth keeping the core of Warcraft intrinsic to the game in which case the high elves and night elven civilization need to be divorced from the playable blood elves and Nightborne and go to the alliance, then the remaining blood elves and Nightborne on the horde be developed away from that, and all the other things I've said. the alliance is promoted and given the red carpet treatment for an expansion or two to significantly raise its profile again and equalise the numbers, and then they competitively boost both factions, no longer giving one faction all the best things.

When the High Elves were part of the alliance, it was with druidic/ranger themes, which then the NE continued. There's nothing about the elven empire themes that have ever been alliance, not even close.

If we were going to take your argument about exclusivity and identity seriously, then the answer is not removing BE's from the horde, but to clearly separate the NE and BE aesthetics; As it as always been, alliance elves would focus on nature themes, and blood elves + nightborne on the high fantasy magical imperial themes.

So no highborne on the alliance, NE and HE become entirely druidic, and BE and NB entirely arcane focused.

Makes far more sense than completely removing the BE's identity, no? But you wouldn't accept that, because we all know your argument lacks any actual integrity and does not exist at all for the sake of the game.

This is not true and you know it. you're just trying to counter the argument because it reveals the truth about the situation and to accept it means accepting the conclusions it means. You may tell yourselves that the high elves have nothing to d o with the alliance, but the alliance was built on the concepts blizzard gave to the elves, humans and dwarves.

And when the blood elves joined the horde, they reverted them to their high elf tradition, gave them the high elf home rather than the new home on outland WC3 TFT had created for them and was developing them into part of a bad boy anti-hero faction of elves with Illidan.

Right now you only need to know Warcraft history and just look at the blood elves and you see far more in common and in line with all the alliance races than any horde race. And so the Nightborne that come, have things only in common with the blood elves but no other horde race, while they have so much in common with the night elves, especially the Highborne, the high elves, the void elves, the draenei, the humans, the dwarves than they do the trolls, orcs, tauren, goblins etc.

No one is saying that the horde can't have unique races that are different, the Pandaren are an excellent example, but if you are considering the blood elves as unique, they are not, they are alliance, they may be unique on the horde but it is an alliance theme there, you should want them to become something not tied to the alliance, something more unique, in a similar vein to that I suggested, which is they lose all things high elves (and the Nightborne lose all things kaldorei civilization and Highborne) both in their culture, behaviour, temperament, and later in their architecture and even aesthetic. while the models won't change, they can gain additional optional customisations that would allow them different looks, architecture is easy enough to change, but for the rest, you have to narratively take them i n a different direction. Blizzard has done this before, Kael'thas in TFT was going that direction, and we saw hints of it in TBC with the Sunsworn, Elisande's loyalists and their attitude is different to the benevolent pre-sundering kaldorei attitude Farondis had.. this is why Azshara's Highborne became naga, a different race, and the naga seem very different from the kaldorei - pre-sundering and long vigil alike. Even their architecture becomes different.

This is where you take the horde elves. You aren't losing them as playable, you're not even losing their models, nothing like that, they are just losing that high elf identity and the night elven kaldorei civilization identity they currently have. this is what you are arguing so strongly to keep.

At the end of the day, the wisdom or folly to do either is based on what blizzard regards as best for the game. Regardless of whether I want Highborne or high elves more apparent on the alliance. at this point , i don't care, not like i use to, i already have Highborne and high elves on the alliance, and i have the high elf kingdom and night elf civilization available on the horde. i don't need to make these arguments to get them on the alliance just to enjoy them.. they are already there.

My motive for making these arguments here now, is to improve the alliance, balance the game, fix the horde, and generally restore the core of Warcraft. It's not the only position I advocate, but for strengthening and healing Warcraft's core this is the route i'll take.

If I could determine what route they'd take , my first option would be more factions

1. Four factions. alliance, horde, Kaldorei or the Night faction and the Undead
2. I'd take the elves and a few races neutral in the manner Beloren has suggested.
3. I'd do the Return of the High elves and Rise of the Kaldorei like I have suggested, with all the improvements to the alliance and the horde i have suggested above.

- - - Updated - - -

The Situation Is Serious enough

@MyWholeLifeIsThunder The way things are going, without a drastic and serious effort to make the alliance viable, we will lose both factions and what it means to have factions.

This is neither good nor bad, but no factions isn't really what Warcraft is/was - but maybe Warcraft needs to die and new Warcraft be born.

However if they want to keep Warcraft, they can't just let things go on as they are, alliance players continually going horde nonstop, no incentive to remain alliance - not ideologically or thematically, not socially.. face it, go horde, you have the blood elves and Nightborne providing all the things you expect of the alliance.

Well this is a problem for the faction concept of Warcraft, nothing more. Want to fix that, take action now, make the alliance feel special and interesting again, attractive. how? Elves, elves, elves, they mean more to alliance fans and enough of the horde to make the difference, the high elves and the night elves are well loved, but the best parts of them are visible on the horde in the blood elves and Nightborne, and those that remain on the alliance, the Darnassians and Void elves are vast shadows of what the lore paints of the high elves and the Kaldorei (who can be a lot more when you provide both pre-sundering and long vigil parts to make them the epic faction grade race they were).

This means all the cool high elf and night elf civilization parts of the blood elves and Nightborne must be removed from them and returned to the alliance and made to look good. It doesn't mean the horde has to permanently lose out if you replace the lost elven stuff with orc, troll stuff, and if you redefine/develop the blood elves and Nightborne into something new/unique.. even if you make them the anti-hero types they were going to be in TBC or the sinister, megalomaniac empire building near naga type the Elisande loyalists were going to be - complete with new architecture, shifted cultural and ideological values from benevolence and the kaldorei type of high society to something new.

This is what I would counsel doing. So many issues fixed and things improved and all it cost was the horde losing an elven element that wasn't really horde to begin with. For the price of Quel'thalas and Suramar, it is well worth it if you ask me. I wouldn't fight to keep the game in this spiralling decline just so the blood elves can brag about Quel'thalas, and horde Nightborne can have feel good about a city and race they have never needed. But was given for eye candy treats and likely just because it was habit to give horde the shinier things. If you can look above and beyond sentimental attachments, you will see that by far this ist he most effective and least obtrusive solution.

Sure it will cause a row, but it wasn't be as bad as burning down Teldrassil and geocoding the kaldorei, or losing Lordaeron.


Alliance get the bulk of the High elves, Horde get the bulk of the Pandaren
The horde loses the high elf aspect of the blood elves completely, and diminish ( to be rebuilt into something new down the line), so that the high elves become a big thing on the alliance again with the kingdom going blue and being restored fully to high elven stuff.. the counter;

The Pandaren skew far greater horde, the Tushui are a small remnant group of Pandaren that stay loyal to the alliance, meanwhile the Huojin influence grows and much of Pandaria favours horde, the culture becomes associated with the horde as others like Mogu etc join in ( to be rebalanced later when the blood elves are regrown and redeveloped.

The reason for this is that both these races have been shared, but the Thalassian template is 100% alliance, therefore all things high elven about it should return to the alliance both to boost the alliance and restore the faction theme. The Pandaren are a unique race and culture, they can fit on either faction and were given to both, however, it would be fine for the Pandaren to heavily favour the horde instead as the high elves will alliance. It's fine that people start identifying the Pandaren more with the horde, as they do the high elves with the alliance. The Pandaren are more monstrous, but they are cute/friendly, they have also already been pre-disposed to the horde, Chen Stormstout had many adventures with the horde and Vol'jin, and almost nothing with the alliance, the one book based on Pandara, Shadows of Vol'jin was far more horde centric than alliance.

The high elven civilization, Silvermoon, Quel'thalas are all alliance themed, but the Pandaren have a beautiful civilization too that isn't themed on any faction, so is free

The Kaldorei rise massively, the Forsaken rise massively
The same occurs with the Nightborne, Suramar goes alliance, thanks to the actions of the horde most citizens hated and the friendliness of Highborne night elves, broken isle ones, Dalaran wizards, Lightforged draenei, void elves and ofc Quel'thalas and the High elves' return. The Nightborne are also healing to their original night elven forms, Suramar naturally progresses alliance, a few hate that mindset, prefer the horde's, don't see themselves as defenders, but conquerors that need to perfect the world, they view the Nightborne form as a symbol of progression, and use magic to halt the Arcan'dor's effect reverting to the Nightborne.

The kaldorei are built up, we see the full power of the pre-sundering civilization with their capital in Suramar, Highborne, Shal'dorei night elves, Moonguard, Moon Priestesses all empowering, a new well, their dignity and nobility restored and firing.. they are perfectly complimented by the long vigil groups, the druids and their packs, the sentinels and forest hunters, the wardens and the demon hunters -Shaladrassil world tree, the night warrior linking in to the civilization wing Priestesses, with the font of Elune etc

In Contrast the Forsaken are the one that grow and develop, they become leaders of the the remaining scourge, and control vast swathes of Northrend, factions like the Ebon blade, the San'layn etc are all skewed horde because of this

The idea is here, is that though the kaldorei are part of the alliance, and the forsaken are part of the horde, they are massive powerful entities, almost like a separate faction, with their own storyline. Initially, at least for the first two expansions the Kaldorei would have the higher momentum and build, because they're further behind, need more building up and it's the alliance profile that needs raising, while the undead have had a lot more attention over the years. they will be built up, but more of the focus would be on showcasing the alliance factions. There isn't much to show for hte forsaken except how they come to power to rule the undead and a powerful entity toe to toe and horde aligned.

Their situation is more complex, they have far more mixed elements than before, with not all wanting to see everything burn, Lightforged forsaken and forsaken willing to work and be friends with humans. Lordaeron is no longer horde, but it is open to both humans and forsaken and both live there ruled by a council of both types of humans (undead and normal) with Calia leading. This doesn't mean all are at peace, there are human elements that want them gone, and forsaken elements that want the reverse.. it's quite a complex situation - both factions are racially involved but it's a neutral party that rules.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

SNIP

JFC can you TRY to be concise? All this rambling and meandering is maddening, all these wall of texts have little substance and you just keep saying the same thing over and over again with more words, and less clarity.

The high elven civilization, Silvermoon, Quel'thalas are all alliance themed

And you keep saying nonsense like this as if it's self evident and I'm expected to take you seriously.

So:

Strict thematic segregation between the factions would enforce identity; easy to do, but at the cost of any nuance. Literally dumbing down the narrative. Not worth it at all.

But even if they would go for it, removing the BE themes and aesthetics from the Horde and "returning them" to the alliance is the most asinine way to go about it. You want enforced dichotomy because it's the "easiest way" of enforcing identity, but want to do do it the most extensive and laborious way by completely revampining the elves on the Horde.

Wouldn't it be easier to enforce thematic dichotomy by just keeping the elven arcane/imperial themes on the Horde, and druidic/nature on the alliance?

So then you add the nonsense about elves theme being intrinsically alliance.

You claim to want what's best for the game, but your arguments are contradictory and a thinly veiled justification for your night elven empire boner. And you end up with a baffling argument where you whole ass say that dumbing down the game and reverting its own narrative evolution for a more traditionalist fantasy would be the best for the game.

Jesus.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Well, I suppose anyone who likes being a Human servant would say all of this.

Now grow some pumpkins for your Human overlords. The Alliance is only the faction of "Human Potential."

The Horde is the best faction because the Alliance is nothing more than "Humans and the rest." Get used to it.

And get over the Nightborne. They are Horde, as is Suramar. Your just spouting this rubbish because you've tried and failed, for 3 years to come up with every excuse to have Nightborne having lore moments with ONLY the Night Elves and going Alliance. You don't want them to be with any other race, just nelfs. If Nightborne want to speak to other races, they should ask tyrant Night Elves first. That is actually quite selfish.

JFC can you TRY to be concise? All this rambling and meandering is maddening, all these wall of texts have little substance and you just keep saying the same thing over and over again with more words, and less clarity.

Lots of words with no sense behind them.
Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.

[Traveler Voltin]

Well, I suppose anyone who likes being a Human servant would say all of this.

Now grow some pumpkins for your Human overlords. The Alliance is only the faction of "Human Potential."

The Horde is the best faction because the Alliance is nothing more than "Humans and the rest." Get used to it.

And get over the Nightborne. They are Horde, as is Suramar. Your just spouting this rubbish because you've tried and failed, for 3 years to come up with every excuse to have Nightborne having lore moments with ONLY the Night Elves and going Alliance. You don't want them to be with any other race, just nelfs. If Nightborne want to speak to other races, they should ask tyrant Night Elves first. That is actually quite selfish.



Lots of words with no sense behind them.
Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.

why do you argue with someone who wont see reason?