Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Tanaria]

I wholeheartedly support the idea of pushing blood elves towards the darker Dark ranger and Sun'Layn theme, with glowing red eyes, fangs, vampire wings, pale skin, all that. Do not worry, their high elf characteristics will not be removed. As mentioned before whatever is added, stays. It would be a frigging great idea to transform the blood elves into cool badasses.

Night elves could probably share Suramar with Nightborne, or, in my opinion, even better, build their own glorious city back from scratch (they are prideful beings after all).

I think adding the red eyes and showing a union in the game between the Dark Rangers and Farstriders, perhaps seeking to drive out the remnant Cult of the Damned would a very good way.
It would be a capital idea to bring these two back together.

And for Night Elves:
I think they need to build their own city on Western Kalimdor. Either Hyjal or Darkshore would work. The latter would be a follow on from the BFA storyline.
That's not to say the Battle for Darkshore instance wouldn't be playable...it would, but the region itself would be primarily belong to the Alliance with a new introduction starting in the very North of Darkshore.

[ravenmoon]

@Eleann I've just come to view it as well, "off" , that the horde should be so focused on elves or have so much of elves about it or on it.

And it's not only that it's elves, it's the alliance brand of elves. At some point I began to ask myself, hang on a sec.. why? it does kinda make the horde like the alliance, Almost like a place an alliance type player can go to and experience the alliance on the horde.

if that was the case, why were the best things about the elves going to the horde? It wasn't and isn't helping the alliance at all.

I realised, ofc, the alliance is never going to be as attractive as the horde if the horde continues to sport the best version of what the alliance is about.

Think about it, you have humans, but prettier humans on the horde
you have human like civilization type cities, arcane magic and culture but a better version on the horde.

These are the things the alliance is based on, the alliance is not going to be popular against the horde as long as these things are sitting on the horde. The horde does the alliance better than the alliance because o f the high elf stuff and night elf civilization stuff. They literally gave the best aspects of the alliance to the horde. Who needs the alliance?

Maybe this is what horde elf fans don't want to lose. If the high elf and night elf stuff goes back, they're going to need the alliance to experience that.. and they don't want to, they want it all on the horde. But this is neither good for the alliance, nor good for the horde or the game. No one wants to lose stuff they like I get that, but I fele this is necessary. It's not being destroyed like Teldrassil, it's just going to the other faction.

Besides it's not getting rid of blood elves or Nightborne, this is the compromise, the horde keeps those races, they just lose the alliance flair they have and not be so prominent until they can become something more distinct.


Not many people would dare suggest something like this because it will draw the ire of wow's most vocal group, the horde elf fan base, and they will verbally crucify you, like they are doing with me, but it's got to be said. It is the obvious solution no one wants to consider. The problem no one wants to admit (on the horde) or dares to because of retribution and backlash from said horde elf crowd (on the alliance). But this is what needs to happen.

[Vaedan]

I think adding the red eyes and showing a union in the game between the Dark Rangers and Farstriders, perhaps seeking to drive out the remnant Cult of the Damned would a very good way.
It would be a capital idea to bring these two back together.

And for Night Elves:
I think they need to build their own city on Western Kalimdor. Either Hyjal or Darkshore would work. The latter would be a follow on from the BFA storyline.
That's not to say the Battle for Darkshore instance wouldn't be playable...it would, but the region itself would be primarily belong to the Alliance with a new introduction starting in the very North of Darkshore.

I'd like to see that happen too. It's about time Horde players have their option to play Dark Rangers, it's been part of the faction from its early days. San'layn also mix well with both Forsaken and Sin'dorei. Velonara made it also clear she still considers blood elves her people and we've seen dark rangers being eager to defend Quel'thalas as well.

As for night elves, capital in Hyjal is very likely to happen, given they relocated here from Stormwind (thank gods!), but it probably means druids of Horde races were kicked out. I really missed any official note from Cenarion Circle regarding Burning of Teldrassil and the fact that Horde attempted to kill a leader of Cenarion Circle, but I guess this will be forgotten. Anyway, with Tyrande's lust for vengeance, I can't really imagine tauren and troll druids would be welcome in the place of new kaldorei capital.

[ravenmoon]

@Vaedan, @Tanaria , @Eleann

Some definitely don't like or want to hear what I'm saying, it seems far too radical for the status quo, but really it isn't that radical, but rather necessary and logical. And when you really think about it, we've had far more radical anyway.

What I'm suggesting would actually really help the alliance, and it won't destroy the horde but would help it,, especially in the long run, yes the horde loses something, but it will also gain things, including it's identity. The horde isn't losing the blood elves or Nightborne as playable, this development won't destroy the horde.

However it will make the alliance the go to place for those who want to experience that side of elven culture, want to experience all things high elf or all things night elf - that's the alliance for you. this is how it should be and this is one of the attractions of the alliance. If you give the alliance's attractions to the horde, do not be surprised that the horde remains more popular than the alliance, it really is that simple.

Whiles you could give the alliance more elf-alliance themed stuff than the horde, it is less logical and effective than removing the alliance aspects in the horde and the horde elves. People don't want to lose stuff, but the horde cannot continue to have the best alliance features and lore cultures and expect the alliance to be okay with it - the horde will constantly be ahead and more popular than the alliance if this continues. The game needs both factions equally popular, and loved for their own unique identity, this is what they should seek to re-establish, and if it means doing a move that horde elf fans wouldn't like, this shouldn't stop them, you can't please everyone, do things that need to be done for the good of your game.

[Tanaria]

What I'm suggesting would actually really help the alliance, and it won't destroy the horde but would help it,, especially in the long run, yes the horde loses something, but it will also gain things, including it's identity. The horde isn't losing the blood elvs or Nightborne as playable, this development won't destroy the horde.

However it iwll make the alliance the go to place for those who want to experience that side of elven culture, want to experience all things high elf or all things night elf - that's the alliance for you. this is how it should be and this is one of the attractions of the alliance. If you give the alliance's attractions to the horde, do not be surprised that the horde remains more popular than the alliance, it really is that simple.

Whiles you could give the alliance more elf-alliance themed stuff than the horde, it is less logical and effective than removing the alliance aspects in the horde and the horde elves. People don't want to lose stuff, but the horde cannot continue to have the best alliance features and lore cultures and expect the alliance to be okay with it - the horde will constantly be ahead and more popular than the alliance if this continues. The game needs both factions equally popular, and loved for their own unique identity, this is what they should seek to re-establish, and if it means doing a move that horde elf fans wouldn't like, this shouldn't stop them, you can't please everyone, do things that need to be done for the good of your game.

Your opinion...an opinion from somebody who doesn't even play.
Blizzard won't take from the Horde like this and not have anything from the Alliance be taken. The obvious thing to be taken from the Alliance will be the Night Elf lands on Kalimdor. That's fair and will give the Blood Elves and Nightborne lands where they can thrive and protect Kalimdor from the nelf invaders.

Felo'Thalas could be a great place (obviously now it's no longer called Ashenvale.)

I'd like to see that happen too. It's about time Horde players have their option to play Dark Rangers, it's been part of the faction from its early days. San'layn also mix well with both Forsaken and Sin'dorei. Velonara made it also clear she still considers blood elves her people and we've seen dark rangers being eager to defend Quel'thalas as well.

As for night elves, capital in Hyjal is very likely to happen, given they relocated here from Stormwind (thank gods!), but it probably means druids of Horde races were kicked out. I really missed any official note from Cenarion Circle regarding Burning of Teldrassil and the fact that Horde attempted to kill a leader of Cenarion Circle, but I guess this will be forgotten. Anyway, with Tyrande's lust for vengeance, I can't really imagine tauren and troll druids would be welcome in the place of new kaldorei capital.

As much as I like the idea of Hyjal being the Kaldorei capital, what was the point in the battle for Darkshore if they aren't even going to settle there?

[ravenmoon]

And your blatantly not listening to the lore.
The Arcan'dor does not restore Nightborne to Night Elves - It's not that powerful. A night elf hermit tree cannot undo the powers of the Eye of Aman'thul. Elisande is also dead, in case you haven't noticed.

Stop making up new lore that makes no sense and hurts the Blood Elves and Nightborne fans.

The blood elves have not re-identified themselves as high elves either but they can be written to.

Stop trying to pretend that I am passing a suggestion as fact. I am proposing the Arcan'dor be written to do this. The lore does not specify whether it does this or not, I am exploiting that ambiguity, because the Arcan'dor is suppose to reverse the damage of the Nightwell, bringing these former night elves back into balance, I am suggesting that in order to bring the Nightborne population of Suramar into the alliance, that they exploit this aspect of it and use it to make the Suramar population night elven so it can be back in the alliance

Just like I am proposing that the blood elves in Quel'thalas instead of getting slaughtered and conquered by war, instead decide to end their mourning and return to being high elves. So yes the narrative will show that these guys view being Sin'dorei as a period of mourning - they took the name to honour their fallen" - it is a justifiable way of interpreting it, at some point, they can decide that this honouring or mourning has ended. In addition to that, they embrace their high elf ideals, because this is what truly defines them. These guys in Quel'thalas make this story write itself, because blizzard portrayed them as high elves effectively. So it's not hard to see them choosing this identity once more and divorcing themselves from the horde. These guys are not the type that condone the actions of Garrosh, or Sylvanas, the genocide of even their enemies - this is not the high elf character they've preserved in, and now it's easy to see how this works against remaining a horde aligned blood elf.


This is my suggestion for the narrative development that brings Quel'thalas and Suramar back into the alliance with its population. the story writes itself, blizzard has left all these doors open and even if they had closed them, they can simply write new ones.

As fans, we can argue till we are blue that the Arcan'dor would not heal Nightborne into night elves or that the blood elves in Quel'thalas would never call themselves high elves again or join the alliance. This is what fans do, they argue, how a story develops is determined by the developer and they have no such limitations. They decide where it will go, A fan doesn't know what will happen, what person or race will choose, when they'll say enough is enough, killing kaldorei kin, warmongering and blood thirst are not our way or values ,we're out, or all the effects a very magical tree that reversed a degenerating curse and imbalance that altered a race would actually have. A creative developer chooses how these things will turn out, and can do so for whatever reason he wants, whether he is cooking up a new story, or re-arranging the political alignment for story purposes r for gameplay /community purposes.. he simply writes how it will go, and can provide as much or as little explanation as he wants.

He decides whether Nightborne went horde because Tyrande looked at em funny or because they were attacked by alliance and why this happened. you and I don't. This is why I am suggesting, not stating lore fact. So you coming on telling me that the Arcan'dor doesn't do this or that is meaningless, because I am giving a suggestion/making a proposal for the future not writing lore fact.

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Your opinion...an opinion from somebody who doesn't even play.
Blizzard won't take from the Horde like this and not have anything from the Alliance be taken. The obvious thing to be taken from the Alliance will be the Night Elf lands on Kalimdor. That's fair and will give the Blood Elves and Nightborne lands where they can thrive and protect Kalimdor from the nelf invaders.

Felo'Thalas could be a great place (obviously now it's no longer called Ashenvale.)

Wouldn't they? It's not the first time they've done something perceived as drastic by fans becuase they felt it was necessary. In fact didn't they take from the alliance like this? And twice at that, first the high elves, then the night elf sub race - both of these are alliance based races and themes. At some point they are going to realise that this isn't necessary at all, Not only does the horde not need that stuff to remain there, it is at the heart of the reason why the alliance is just not competing with the horde.

1. If you give the alliance's attractions to the horde, do not be surprised that the horde remains more popular than the alliance, it really is that simple.

2. the horde cannot continue to have the best alliance features and lore cultures and expect the alliance to be okay with it - the horde will constantly be ahead and more popular than the alliance if this continues. The game needs both factions equally popular, and loved for their own unique identity

[Tanaria]

SNIP

And what the writers are not doing is writing the Horde Elves in anyway that puts them into the Alliance.

Hell, Lor'themar Theron is the Horde Council "leader" at the moment, with Thalyssra holding a very firm place on said council (plus the two of them are an item.)

Your trying to bully your suggestions onto us and say "My way is the only way. Your ideas are alright, but mine is the best and only way. Get used to it Horde Elf fans, your coming to the alliance whether you like it or not!" That is very selfish.

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Wouldn't they? It's not the first time they've done something perceived as drastic by fans becuase they felt it was necessary. In fact didn't they take from the alliance like this? And twice at that, first the high elves, then the night elf sub race - both of these are alliance based races and themes. At some point they are going to realise that this isn't necessary at all, Not only does the horde not need that stuff to remain there, it is at the heart of the reason why the alliance is just not competing with the horde.

1. If you give the alliance's attractions to the horde, do not be surprised that the horde remains more popular than the alliance, it really is that simple.

2. the horde cannot continue to have the best alliance features and lore cultures and expect the alliance to be okay with it - the horde will constantly be ahead and more popular than the alliance if this continues. The game needs both factions equally popular, and loved for their own unique identity

Ok then.

Horde get Kalimdor and Northrend whilst Alliance get Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles.

All night elf land becomes Horde land and Eldre'Thalas is a Horde Capital City for the Horde Elves, with Lor'themar and Thalyssra leading their people's between Orgrimmar and Eldre'Thalas.

[Eleann]

@Vaedan, @Tanaria , @Eleann

it will make the alliance the go to place for those who want to experience that side of elven culture, want to experience all things high elf or all things night elf - that's the alliance for you. this is how it should be and this is one of the attractions of the alliance. If you give the alliance's attractions to the horde, do not be surprised that the horde remains more popular than the alliance, it really is that simple.

Whiles you could give the alliance more elf-alliance themed stuff than the horde, it is less logical and effective than removing the alliance aspects in the horde and the horde elves. People don't want to lose stuff, but the horde cannot continue to have the best alliance features and lore cultures and expect the alliance to be okay with it - the horde will constantly be ahead and more popular than the alliance if this continues. The game needs both factions equally popular, and loved for their own unique identity, this is what they should seek to re-establish.

I hear ya. I get you. We both know that the strategy behind adding Blood elves and Nightborne to the Horde was because the Horde mostly consisted of monster-like humanoids (orcs, tauren, trolls, undead). They had no pretty races at all. Apparently, during Vanilla a very big Korean poll was made where everyone strongly requested pretty/femme races for the Horde so Horde players'girlfriends could play on Horde. Again, it would have been too much to give Alliance a 3rd elf race where the Horde only had one. I guess the faction imbalance is not that bad that it would compel the devs to grant Alliance a 3rd elf race in the form of Nightborne. I think there is a certain favoritism towards the Horde though (Ion Hazzikostas primarily plays Horde and his response on adding High elves to Alliance was very shallow and one-sided) because they did not seem to consider the implications of boosting the Horde's elves as much as they have, and are planning to boost even more due to the outcry for Nightborne.

What you need to understand, however, is that what is done, is done. In the entire history of WoW, the devs have never removed a race from the game, or changed a race's faction. They can add new things to the Alliance, but not remove stuff from the Horde. Although I guess they could remove one or two of the 4 blonde shades they have as we have litteraly none atm. Also, the Horde does not have the best Alliance features. I would know, the sole reason I play this game is because it's so wonderfully made with its environment. We have Stormwind and Elwyn Forest, Westfall and Redridge Mountains, we have Ironforge and Loch Modan, a huge full snowed area for those who like the icy theme. We have Ashenvale which looks majestic, and Exodar and Azuremist Isle (another great questing area). What remains is for Void Elves to get the High elven features people have been asking for, and a glorious city with a large questing area around it, just like Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas does (but with ther own unique void and high elf theme). And if Nightborne get to have a city as glorious as Suramar (at least part of it), then the Night elves should get a new, modern, majestic city with its pure waters and temple of Elune, its swans and new modeled tigers, all that.

[ravenmoon]

And what the writers are not doing is writing the Horde Elves in anyway that puts them into the Alliance.

Hell, Lor'themar Theron is the Horde Council "leader" at the moment, with Thalyssra holding a very firm place on said council (plus the two of them are an item.)

Your trying to bully your suggestions onto us and say "My way is the only way. Your ideas are alright, but mine is the best and only way. Get used to it Horde Elf fans, your coming to the alliance whether you like it or not!" That is very selfish.



Ok then.

Horde get Kalimdor and Northrend whilst Alliance get Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles.

All night elf land becomes Horde land and Eldre'Thalas is a Horde Capital City for the Horde Elves, with Lor'themar and Thalyssra leading their people's between Orgrimmar and Eldre'Thalas.

Tanaria, your feelings are legitimate, you don't have to like what I say or agree with it, so don't worry I'm not going to react at you for not agreeing with me.

I feel many in blizzard have come to like having a piece of the alliance on the horde, it helped hem grow to like the horde, and they have grown affections for this state, nothing wrong with that - it might not be the best position for the game, but it's an acceptable one, and may stay that way.

I'm just pointing out that it is the reason why the alliance is struggling so much, the horde is too attractive for the alliance, and the best way to deal with that is remove the attraction - i.e. the high elf stuff that's with the blood elves and the night elf stuff and put that back on the alliance.

I would also try to point out to you that this state of affairs is not so bad as you might think or fear. I can't make you like the idea, but if it does happen it won't be so bad. You might not like the horde anymore because blood elves aren't behaving like high elves or have Silvermoon, same with Nightborne and Suramar, but they'll still be there and you might like what they become later, you would also have that part of the elves you like so much fully available on the alliance, which is really where it should be.

The whole blood elves on the horde and again night elves' sub race was a device that was aimed at increasing the horde numbers by taking from the alliance. the whole horde push was meant to lift the image of the horde so it would be popular and people would have an incentive play it, this would keep the horde competitive with the alliance. It worked too well, and one of the core reasons the net gain is still going horde with alliance numbers depleted and still depleting is because the horde is too attractive and has everything of both factions.

This isn't good, and the elves on it are at the heart of this, and as uncomfortable as it might make you this is where the knife needs to go.

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I hear ya. I get you. We both know that the strategy behind adding Blood elves and Nightborne to the Horde was because the Horde mostly consisted of monster-like humanoids (orcs, tauren, trolls, undead). They had no pretty races at all. Apparently, during Vanilla a very big Korean poll was made where everyone strongly requested pretty/femme races for the Horde so Horde players'girlfriends could play on Horde. Again, it would have been too much to give Alliance a 3rd elf race where the Horde only had one. I guess the faction imbalance is not that bad that it would compel the devs to grant Alliance a 3rd elf race in the form of Nightborne. I think there is a certain favoritism towards the Horde though (Ion Hazzikostas primarily plays Horde and his response on adding High elves to Alliance was very shallow and one-sided) because they did not seem to consider the implications of boosting the Horde's elves as much as they have, and are planning to boost even more due to the outcry for Nightborne.

I go a little beyond that. Why was having no pretty race considered problematic? You see I was very much involved in wow back in those days, with the discussion with the devs. Etc

The horde having monster-like races was not undesirable nor problematic. The problem with the horde was people weren't playing it, but picking the alliance, this imbalance was damaging the game. The game was designed to operate with fairly equal numbers on both sides. If one side overwhelmed the other, world pvp would be miserable for one, groups and raids and guilds much easier for one over the other, not to mention queues and wait times - all sorts of problems.

This wasn't good. In trying to find out why people were going to the alliance, it was thought that a pretty race would help make the horde popular. There is nothing wrong with the horde being what it was, it wasn't a problem in the RTs, nor is it a story problem. In classic off 1-3, the horde had a bad image. It wasn't just looks.

Looks only matter to vain people, but if most of your population is vain then it will be a factor, the main point was playability, not monstery. Monsters can be cool, people love vampires, werewolves, brutal looking people, dark lords of the sith, it's edgey and cool.

The horde was perceived as lame and the evil faction in an era where everyone wanted to be the good guys - something that has culturally shifted. All these worked against the horde.

So the solution was to bring a good guy race into the horde, that was also pretty to provide something for alliance type players on the horde. IT was chosen to have the best features of the alliance too, to draw them over. This all made sense at the time to fix the numbers. In addition the horde image was worked on, The horde was written to be cool. The best story portions, the lead roles in the activities, the quests etc, were all better on the horde.

This was not because blizzard was incapable of writing the alliance, it was intentional to make the horde attractive and improve it's image, likeability and thus playability. So you will pick it. If people were more drawn to the alliance because it had races similar to them and cultures, perhaps the horde base races were too foreign for most of them, it made sense to introduce a group like them on the horde (this is why most MMOs have humans on both sides).

However make no doubt about it, it's an alliance themed race on the horde, and the horde no longer needs it currently, it's image is much better, and so is its popularity. it's the age where monster is cool, dark is edgy and everyone prefers Illidan to Malfurion, edge-lord to goody two shoes.

So why does the horde need alliance stuff any longer when the alliance is greatly suffering and the imbalance is still pulling players to the alliance? Surely at the very least all the horde needs is to retain the blood elf models, it doesn't need the high elf civilization and community, nor does it need the kaldorei civilization and community, it can just have the Nightborne models.

So give the alliance what it needs, take it form the horde, restore the horde's distinctiveness - it will still flourish and remain popular - WoW classic proves it (no blood elves are on classic yet horde/alliance numbers are 50/50

What you need to understand, however, is that what is done, is done. In the entire history of WoW, the devs have never removed a race from the game, or changed a race's faction. They can add new things to the Alliance, but not remove stuff from the Horde. Although I guess they could remove one or two of the 4 blonde shades they have as we have litteraly none atm. Also, the Horde does not have the best Alliance features. I would know, the sole reason I play this game is because it's so wonderfully made with its environment. We have Stormwind and Elwyn Forest, Westfall and Redridge Mountains, we have Ironforge and Loch Modan, a huge full snowed area for those who like the icy theme. We have Ashenvale which looks majestic, and Exodar and Azuremist Isle (another great questing area). What remains is for Void Elves to get the High elven features people have been asking for, and a glorious city with a large questing area around it, just like Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas does (but with ther own unique void and high elf theme). And if Nightborne get to have a city as glorious as Suramar (at least part of it), then the Night elves should get a new, modern, majestic city with its pure waters and temple of Elune, its swans and new modeled tigers, all that.

Eleann, I am not suggesting Blood elves be removed - this is a distortion... is that what you got from what I was saying? or are you reading Tanaria and Thunder's interpretation of what I'm saying.

The blood elves will not be removed. while it may be most optimal, it can be done without their removal, the problem is not the blood elves themselves, but it is the high elf in the blood elf, they're too alliance, it is this that must go back tot he alliance. The blood elf remains, but becomes more like the TFT blood elf, the classic blood elf - edgy, dark, - the models don't change, they only get new features added that are optional, you may not want to be an edgy fel elf or San'layn vampire type, you can still be pristine pretty, but you would have other cool cosmetic options to reflect a non-high elven direction .

The point is what is high elf is an enormous attraction to the alliance, so to is all the things that are night elven - both pre-sundering and long vigil , these things (currently on the blood elves and Nightborne) are the heart and home of the high elves and the Night elves - it's high elf stuff.. it is this stuff that goes.

Not the blood elves.. they remain horde, you can still pick them and having their current models too.

And yes they can add new things to the alliance, I agree, but this would be sub-optimal. Nothing excites and invigorates the alliance than elves, and part of the problem is the horde ahs to nice a display of the alliance version of elves on it. The blood elves are too alliance themed, so are the Nightborne because they are based on 100% High elf lore and theme and night elven kaldorei civilization lore and theme, they are not distinct from night elf lore or high elf lore, and as such are powerfully attractive alliance elements. Making the alliance ones simply more attractive might help, but it won't be as good as taking the high elf out of the blood lef and taking the night elf Highborne/civilization type out of the Nightborne.

What they become is up to the developers, just let it not be kaldorei civilization culture and architecture based, nor high elf culture and architecture based. It can be majestic, even beautiful, it can be pretty, it just must be different and not high elf or night elven based, that's all they have to make sure

[Eleann]

Eleann, I am not suggesting Blood elves be removed - this is a distortion... is that what you got from what I was saying?

No-No, I did not say that you wish for the Blood elves to be removed. I was only referring to blood elves' x4 blonde hair colours when I said one or two could get removed as it gives them too many High elf customizations at the burden of Alliance High elf fans who have been crying for 14 years for Helfs and only got skins so far. Although honestly I would not mind if they kept all the blondes as long as we got High elf customizations tbh. Like I said I've been reading your posts and I am familiar with the points you are making. It was actually the Nightborne that you gave me the impression you wanted removed for a brief moment but I think what you are trying to say is that their theme should shift more towards edgy arcane and not get anymore involved at all with the Kaldorei culture .

[ravenmoon]

And what the writers are not doing is writing the Horde Elves in anyway that puts them into the Alliance.


Hell, Lor'themar Theron is the Horde Council "leader" at the moment, with Thalyssra holding a very firm place on said council (plus the two of them are an item.)

here today gone tomorrow. Things change.. especially if you need them to, or want them to.

Your trying to bully your suggestions onto us and say "My way is the only way. Your ideas are alright, but mine is the best and only way. Get used to it Horde Elf fans, your coming to the alliance whether you like it or not!" That is very selfish.

That's a bit pointless, because I'm not thinking of myself - I don't play any longer remember, there is a bigger issue and problem on the line here than horde fans keeping stuff that isn't relevant to gameplay. If the blood elves losing Quel'thalas and their population to alliance High elves, and the Suramar's turning Night elf is the catalyst that ignites the alliance solving the balance issues, resulting in a horde that consolidates its identity and image without alliance elements on it. This is helps and serves everyone.

Regardless of what my motive is or what you think my motive is. Even if I was doing this purely out of selfish desire (which I am not) it doesn't change anything. Removing the alliance elements form the horde and putting them on the alliance will remove the horde lure and will generate excitement for the alliance and go a long way to drawing people to it.

It is not the only way, for sure, but it will be the most effective way, and the most optimal way for the franchise both near and long term. Selfish or not. I get the feeling you're just objecting because you are emotional over it, you are coming from "there is no way in hell I will ever allow the alliance to get my stuff, over my dead body" - there is nothing rational or logical about that approach, and that you will hang on to it despite knowing that it is better all round for it to be this way makes you selfish if you didn't realise that. You're opposing this because it's what you want, not because its a bad idea or illogical etc. That's selfish.

Ok then.


Horde get Kalimdor and Northrend whilst Alliance get Eastern Kingdoms and the Broken Isles.


All night elf land becomes Horde land and Eldre'Thalas is a Horde Capital City for the Horde Elves, with Lor'themar and Thalyssra leading their people's between Orgrimmar and Eldre'Thalas.

Still can't happen, because Eldre'thalas is kaldorei civilization which is night elven, we want the night elf stuff which is alliance based and themed out of the horde the horde elves must become something else, no more high elven cities or lands, nor night elven cities - let them get new cities of their own that reflect a different group.

If Eldre'thalas should be the site, it should be levelled and rebuilt.. but my recommendation is blood elves use places like Azshara zone, Netherstorm, Bloodmyst. Nightborne should be with them, they're an allied elven race, the idea is that elves aren't big on the horde, they remain to give the horde access to the models for players who've loved that, but the heart and thrust of elven development and progress is alliance base.

The horde is about orcs, tauren, trolls, goblins, forsaken, pandas etc, that are not alliance themed, and they should be focused on for most improvements. In time blood elves and Nightborne can be worked into doing and providing more. As now a uniquely different group of elves to their former alliance portrayal, their rise to prominence can be

I hear ya. I get you. We both know that the strategy behind adding Blood elves and Nightborne to the Horde was because the Horde mostly consisted of monster-like humanoids (orcs, tauren, trolls, undead). They had no pretty races at all. Apparently, during Vanilla a very big Korean poll was made where everyone strongly requested pretty/femme races for the Horde so Horde players'girlfriends could play on Horde. Again, it would have been too much to give Alliance a 3rd elf race where the Horde only had one. I guess the faction imbalance is not that bad that it would compel the devs to grant Alliance a 3rd elf race in the form of Nightborne. I think there is a certain favoritism towards the Horde though (Ion Hazzikostas primarily plays Horde and his response on adding High elves to Alliance was very shallow and one-sided) because they did not seem to consider the implications of boosting the Horde's elves as much as they have, and are planning to boost even more due to the outcry for Nightborne.

I go a little beyond that. Why was having no pretty race considered problematic? You see I was very much involved in wow back in those days, with the discussion with the devs. Etc

The horde having monster-like races was not undesirable nor problematic. The problem with the horde was people weren't playing it, but picking the alliance, this imbalance was damaging the game. The game was designed to operate with fairly equal numbers on both sides. If one side overwhelmed the other, world pvp would be miserable for one, groups and raids and guilds much easier for one over the other, not to mention queues and wait times - all sorts of problems.

This wasn't good. In trying to find out why people were going to the alliance, it was thought that a pretty race would help make the horde popular. There is nothing wrong with the horde being what it was, it wasn't a problem in the RTs, nor is it a story problem. In classic off 1-3, the horde had a bad image. It wasn't just looks.

Looks only matter to vain people, but if most of your population is vain then it will be a factor, the main point was playability, not monstery. Monsters can be cool, people love vampires, werewolves, brutal looking people, dark lords of the sith, it's edgey and cool.

The horde was perceived as lame and the evil faction in an era where everyone wanted to be the good guys - something that has culturally shifted. All these worked against the horde.

So the solution was to bring a good guy race into the horde, that was also pretty to provide something for alliance type players on the horde. IT was chosen to have the best features of the alliance too, to draw them over. This all made sense at the time to fix the numbers. In addition the horde image was worked on, The horde was written to be cool. The best story portions, the lead roles in the activities, the quests etc, were all better on the horde.

This was not because blizzard was incapable of writing the alliance, it was intentional to make the horde attractive and improve it's image, likeability and thus playability. So you will pick it. If people were more drawn to the alliance because it had races similar to them and cultures, perhaps the horde base races were too foreign for most of them, it made sense to introduce a group like them on the horde (this is why most MMOs have humans on both sides).

However make no doubt about it, it's an alliance themed race on the horde, and the horde no longer needs it currently, it's image is much better, and so is its popularity. it's the age where monster is cool, dark is edgy and everyone prefers Illidan to Malfurion, edge-lord to goody two shoes.

So why does the horde need alliance stuff any longer when the alliance is greatly suffering and the imbalance is still pulling players to the alliance? Surely at the very least all the horde needs is to retain the blood elf models, it doesn't need the high elf civilization and community, nor does it need the kaldorei civilization and community, it can just have the Nightborne models.

So give the alliance what it needs, take it form the horde, restore the horde's distinctiveness - it will still flourish and remain popular - WoW classic proves it (no blood elves are on classic yet horde/alliance numbers are 50/50

What you need to understand, however, is that what is done, is done. In the entire history of WoW, the devs have never removed a race from the game, or changed a race's faction. They can add new things to the Alliance, but not remove stuff from the Horde. Although I guess they could remove one or two of the 4 blonde shades they have as we have litteraly none atm. Also, the Horde does not have the best Alliance features. I would know, the sole reason I play this game is because it's so wonderfully made with its environment. We have Stormwind and Elwyn Forest, Westfall and Redridge Mountains, we have Ironforge and Loch Modan, a huge full snowed area for those who like the icy theme. We have Ashenvale which looks majestic, and Exodar and Azuremist Isle (another great questing area). What remains is for Void Elves to get the High elven features people have been asking for, and a glorious city with a large questing area around it, just like Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas does (but with ther own unique void and high elf theme). And if Nightborne get to have a city as glorious as Suramar (at least part of it), then the Night elves should get a new, modern, majestic city with its pure waters and temple of Elune, its swans and new modeled tigers, all that.

Eleann, I am not suggesting Blood elves be removed - this is a distortion... is that what you got from what I was saying? or are you reading Tanaria and Thunder's interpretation of what I'm saying.

The blood elves will not be removed. while it may be most optimal, it can be done without their removal, the problem is not the blood elves themselves, but it is the high elf in the blood elf, they're too alliance, it is this that must go back tot he alliance. The blood elf remains, but becomes more like the TFT blood elf, the classic blood elf - edgy, dark, - the models don't change, they only get new features added that are optional, you may not want to be an edgy fel elf or San'layn vampire type, you can still be pristine pretty, but you would have other cool cosmetic options to reflect a non-high elven direction .

The point is what is high elf is an enormous attraction to the alliance, so to is all the things that are night elven - both pre-sundering and long vigil , these things (currently on the blood elves and Nightborne) are the heart and home of the high elves and the Night elves - it's high elf stuff.. it is this stuff that goes.

Not the blood elves.. they remain horde, you can still pick them and having their current models too.

And yes they can add new things to the alliance, I agree, but this would be sub-optimal. Nothing excites and invigorates the alliance than elves, and part of the problem is the horde ahs to nice a display of the alliance version of elves on it. The blood elves are too alliance themed, so are the Nightborne because they are based on 100% High elf lore and theme and night elven kaldorei civilization lore and theme, they are not distinct from night elf lore or high elf lore, and as such are powerfully attractive alliance elements. Making the alliance ones simply more attractive might help, but it won't be as good as taking the high elf out of the blood elf and taking the night elf Highborne/civilization type out of the Nightborne.

What they become is up to the developers, just let it not be kaldorei civilization culture and architecture based, nor high elf culture and architecture based. It can be majestic, even beautiful, it can be pretty, it just must be different and not high elf or night elven based, that's all they have to make sure

[Eleann]

No-No, I did not say that you wish for the Blood elves to be removed. I was only referring to blood elves' x4 blonde hair colours when I said one or two could get removed as it gives them too many High elf customizations at the burden of Alliance High elf fans who have been crying for 14 years for Helfs and only got skins so far. Although honestly I would not mind if they kept all the blondes as long as we got High elf customizations tbh. Like I said I've been reading your posts and I am familiar with the points you are making. It was actually the Nightborne that you gave me the impression you wanted removed for a brief moment but I think what you are trying to say is that their theme should shift more towards edgy arcane and not get anymore involved at all with the Kaldorei culture .

Just pasting this here again in case you missed it @ravenmoon

[Tanaria]

The Horde gets Kalimdor, it's quite simple. You demand all of the EK and Broken Isles. Then Horde gets Kalimdor.

Seriously, do alliance players sit here and wonder why Horde players get annoyed with them? Ravenmoon - Get over Suramar. You don't get any of ours because if you do...then all night elves need to die and Kalimdor goes to the Horde. They must be deleted as a race and any players who still have night elves will be changed to void elf, worgen and blood elf. Then all of those lands will become Horde lands and Lor'themar and Thalyssra take them over.

Or, come up with actual good ideas, that don't take and rob or hinder the Horde experience. You don't get to ruin my experience because your still salty after 3 years.

[Eleann]

Seriously, do alliance players sit here and wonder why Horde players get annoyed with them?.

Not all of us want to be annoying or take things from the Horde. I do not wish to take stuff from you. Personally I just really, really wanted to have some blonde and white hair colours available for my Void elf. That is why I came to this thread. I did not even consider this demand until they added the High elf skins, and then it just clicked like thunder. Just add some hairstyles and colours and we have high elves. And as it is very well being suggested it could be arranged for cities to be made for Void elves and Night elves (unique ones). I do not wish Alliance to take Silvermoon or Suramar from Horde, and I am sure many Alliance players do not really care about this matter. Besides, ravenmoon has elected to make no comment on my suggestion for a system where the two factions can play together for dungeons and raids, or faction unison. Because how much more appealing can the Alliance be made that huge Horde top guilds will invest a ton of money into to switch? It is no longer viable for them. Blizzard needs to look to the future and find a way to solve the faction imbalance in a non-lore way by tweeking the system as I mentioned above.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Seriously, do alliance players sit here and wonder why Horde players get annoyed with them?

I mean... is it fair to blame the Alliance as a whole for Ravenmoon?

Like we can... entertain this while discussion, but at the end of the day, for me the start of the nonsense is the "blood elves are an alliance race, because elven identity is alliance" kinda makes the whole thing a house in the sand.

When the starting premise is this buckwild, I feel we are all just wasting time, and not in the usual fun way.

[Eleann]

@Mace

The end result will be playable high elves, but why high elves should be playable is the sort of topic I will leave to fans more interested in the game and Warcraft currently than I am.

I will answer on that. Because Blood elves are currently the best looking race in the game and have now been granted eyes to make them into real playable High elves other than name, when the Alliance has clearly been asking for them as a playable race, for, what, 14 years? Because this simply outrages those who request High elves on the Alliance. Because vein people like me who value looks do not wish to feel forced to play Horde just to play the exact same available elf, but blonde. This is ridiculous. And yet I am beginning to feel like I have been given no choice with literally just blues and dark greys available on my Void elf. Did you know we have 3-4 different shades of blue? And yet some Blood elf players have the audacity to come to our posts and tell us we need more blues and purples. They can shove them purples and blues you-know-where. I had never reacted like this about a certain look until they gave us the light skin colours. Then it just clicked. Started looking at barber shop for light hair colours and there was none. If you are going to start a makeover job, you better friggin finish it. I do not feel like a High elf with dark blue and grey hair. Plus after some time the same colours over and over get really tiring. And Blood elves do not need another city, they have an entire Silvermoon. The Void elves and the Night elves need a city, with its own proper questing area to make the Alliance more appealing.

[Tanaria]

I mean... is it fair to blame the Alliance as a whole for Ravenmoon?

Like we can... entertain this while discussion, but at the end of the day, for me the start of the nonsense is the "blood elves are an alliance race, because elven identity is alliance" kinda makes the whole thing a house in the sand.

When the starting premise is this buckwild, I feel we are all just wasting time, and not in the usual fun way.

Apologies to Eleann.
I'm just frustrated that people are offering good ideas but they just get shouted down with "my ideas are the only ones that work."

Why can't Night Elves and Void Elves develop Darkshore and Terrokkar Forest for example?
I don't mind the Horde losing a presence in the latter zone, because it can work and works well for the development of High Elves and Void Elves.

[Alanar]

That is the whole thing for the past couple pages again right?

"My idea or nothing else"

It was one of the first ideas to use Darkshore and Hyjal for future night elf settlement. The proposel was shut down almost instantly because I want Suramar and nothing else and that idea only came forth, because the " I want Suramar" discussion was already going on. So it only started because "some one wanted what the horde got"

Fast forward to now... no one cares to come forth with new ideas anymore, because they get shut down anyway.
So off all the talk, the conclusion is.. we didnt learn a thing.

[Eleann]

Apologies to Eleann.

Honestly it's tottaly fine I have no issues with anyone here really, people seem a lot more reasonable than some in the forums just plain being mean. My frustration lies with the devs themselves for not reacting fast enough to 14-year long requests, and here we are, High elves almost in our grasp on Alliance but with no high elven hair colours. I really hope something gets done about it because I find it really unfair towards both factions if Alliance dedicated players feel like switching to Horde not because their soul lies with the Horde but out of frustration that their Void elves cannot sport a High elven look yet.

[Alanar]

Apologies to Eleann.
I'm just frustrated that people are offering good ideas but they just get shouted down with "my ideas are the only ones that work."

Why can't Night Elves and Void Elves develop Darkshore and Terrokkar Forest for example?
I don't mind the Horde losing a presence in the latter zone, because it can work and works well for the development of High Elves and Void Elves.

So we need to change things because?
Shouting doesnt make it better... and instead of 2 people shouting it seems its only one left.