Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[ravenmoon]

Honestly I don't know how else to put that the premise that "elves are alliance coded" is nonsense. Again, your whole argument is based on nonsense parameters that you decided, based on an insultingly reductive notion of themes and aesthetics that WoW has spent more than a decade to add nuance to.

Blood Elves have been part of the Horde for longer they have been part of the Alliance; the Horde has existed for longer with Blood Elves in it than not. This obsession to what Horde and Alliance themes SHOULD be is bordering on some pretty questionable ideas about traditionalism; beyond that, you are unable to accept, or even understand, that the factions evolve with time -as they should if there is an attempt at verosimilitude-

It's as if you can't compute that your idea of what the factions should be doesn't line up at all with what Blizzard has been doing for over a decade and a half.



And this is the main problem with all your endless arguments; your premise is simply flawed by saying "elves are an alliance race", faction is not intrinsic to a population. There's nothing to fix; canonically, the kingdom of Quel'thalas has been part of the Horde for longer than part of the Alliance, so the you try this weirdly traditionalist metanarrative approach that because HE's were introduced as members of the alliance, the are inherently alliance, disregarding all in universe motivations.

Blood Elves were sent to the Horde for very practical reasons in terms of Balance, but the narrative was tailored for that outcome -much like how an actor is not available and their absence is written around on a show- We have to accept many lore choices come from beyond the narrative itself, but you don't get to decide what is valid or not, you don't get to decide HE's are inherently alliance because aesthetics and themes and that BE should not be part of the Horde anymore.

There are just so many, may things wrong with your arguments, and IDEK at this point; does it all stem from a monolithic traditionalism because WoW dared to be subversive and give the Horde -made of "the monstrous races"- the prettiest race? Is all of this just based on a shallow and regressive cookie cutter fantasy ideal?

All that it's clear is that your view and WoW's view seem to be intrinsically at odds.

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The problem is that is you have appointed yourself as the one who truly knows what WoW's soul should be.

The other problem is that for some reason it is about the elves of all things.

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But see, that's the biggest issue with Ravenmoon's "perspective", it just doesn't apply to the reality of the setting, because if one thing is pretty evident, is that Horde and Alliance have evolved from their inception, and now are seen as two political superpowers with contrasting ideologies -which gets brought up again and again, from the Pandaren faction choice, to the Nightborne joining the Horde-

It has already been redefined -to move forward from that simplistic original view- Do you really think it would even be worth it to backpedal that now? Warcraft has evolved considerably; Orcs used to be outright bad guys, but then the Horde was made sympathetic and it wasn't just about the good versus bad guys, then the factions were set up as the usual fantasy good guys against the monstrous races, but then BC came -and then CATA and so on- and shifted that paradigmn with elves to the horde and space goats to the alliance.

The paradigm has been shifted, and you have to ask yourself if it's even worth it to consider shifting it back. Do we loose nuance for a more simplistic but stronger sense of themes and identity? I don't think so; I think it's far more fitting if the factions explore their identity as political entities who believe in different things.

it's not that i don't realise. I do.

If blizzard want to embrace their "new direction" as you put it, that started in TBC because 1 alliance race went horde, then they should do that. Weigh the pros and cons

The pros is that it's easy to just keep on with that, the cons are that they will lose that original heart and distinctiveness Warcraft is based on. The choice is theirs.

if they wan to go back to that original heart, that dichotomy and distinctiveness of factions, then this is the way to do it, and I have listed a lot benefits this could yield , it will make things better and improve me the core - it's not a 100% guarantee success, but fi they put the effort in, it will yield results and breathe new life

Alternative just continue as is, homogenise everything, merge lots of things, let hose more and more distinctiveness but open factions and borders, as it is the factions barely mean anything cos they are so similar, why? cos half the alliance is on the horde through the blood elves and Nightborne a lot of people are okay with this, and like things as they are.. but as a developer you should not be okay with things being okay. your job is to make things the best to make them exciting, dynamic, meaningful you should be concerned about fixing your core, or your identity even if no one else is or none of your fans realise this or even care much.

They will play whatever you feed them, but I guarantee you, they'd be less and less drawn to you as it dulls. You can't discern this through metrics and statistics, but you can use metrics and statistics to provide evidence some degree of evidence.


If they want to restore that original heart of Warcraft, revive the theme and feel, make the alliance popular again to match with the horde, then they need to bring hte high elves back in properly and allow the kaldorei to rise again, as the first order of business, then also make changes and improvements that support the core theme, rather take away from it. i.e. no more alliance on horde.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

it's not that i don't realise. I do.

If blizzard want to embrace their "new direction" as you put it, that started in TBC because 1 alliance race went horde, then they should do that. Weigh the pros and cons

The pros is that it's easy to just keep on with that, the cons are that they will lose that original heart and distinctiveness Warcraft is based on. The choice is theirs.

if they wan to go back to that original heart, that dichotomy and distinctiveness of factions, then this is the way to do it, and I have listed a lot benefits this could yield , it will make things better and improve me the core - it's not a 100% guarantee success, but fi they put the effort in, it will yield results and breathe new life

Alternative just continue as is, homogenise everything, merge lots of things, let hose more and more distinctiveness but open factions and borders, as it is the factions barely mean anything cos they are so similar, why? cos half the alliance is on the horde through the blood elves and Nightborne a lot of people are okay with this, and like things as they are.. but as a developer you should not be okay with things being okay. your job is to make things the best to make them exciting, dynamic, meaningful you should be concerned about fixing your core, or your identity even if no one else is or none of your fans realise this or even care much.

They will play whatever you feed them, but I guarantee you, they'd be less and less drawn to you as it dulls. You can't discern this through metrics and statistics, but you can use metrics and statistics to provide evidence some degree of evidence.

And therein lies the flaw presented on your dichotomy, as if there could ONLY be a strong identity if there is a restriction of themes. It's for sure the easiest option, but that's by no means a good thing here; you are asking the setting to dumb itself down to have a stronger sense of identity. It's bonkers.

If they want to restore that original heart of Warcraft, revive the theme and feel, make the alliance popular again to match with the horde, then they need to bring hte high elves back in properly and allow the kaldorei to rise again, as the first order of business, then also make changes and improvements that support the core theme, rather take away from it. i.e. no more alliance on horde.

It's just so patently obvious that your goals are to have the "highborne" aesthetic and themes on the alliance it isn't even funny. If it was only about creating artificial distinction, then why not focus the alliance elves on their nature worshiping roots, and leave all the imperial classical fantasy to the blood elves and nightborne? because the most transparent thing here is that the classical imperial themes you oh so desire have never been part of the alliance identity.

When the High Elves were part of the alliance, it was with druidic/ranger themes, which then the NE continued. There's nothing about the elven empire themes that have ever been alliance, not even close.

If we were going to take your argument about exclusivity and identity seriously, then the answer is not removing BE's from the horde, but to clearly separate the NE and BE aesthetics; As it as always been, alliance elves would focus on nature themes, and blood elves + nightborne on the high fantasy magical imperial themes.

So no highborne on the alliance, NE and HE become entirely druidic, and BE and NB entirely arcane focused.

Makes far more sense than completely removing the BE's identity, no? But you wouldn't accept that, because we all know your argument lacks any actual integrity and does not exist at all for the sake of the game.

[FossilFree]

The damage to the faction identities has already been done, and I don't think it will be undone at this point. That being said, personally I always hated the idea of Blood Elves going to Horde in TBC. But it wasn't out of some jealous possessiveness about keeping them for Alliance, it was because it made Horde into Alliance 2.0 aka Red Alliance. I used to love playing Horde in vanilla, but that went down the pipes when the monster faction became the supermodel faction.

They should have made Blood Elves truly sinister, not this kinda fel but now kinda holy thing. Outcast followers of Kael'thas, scraping a living from the red dust of Outland, in a third faction of Blood Elves, Naga, and Broken. Just like they set up in The Frozen Throne WC3 expansion. Plus, Blood Elf shamans.

[ravenmoon]

And therein lies the flaw presented on your dichotomy, as if there could ONLY be a strong identity if there is a restriction of themes. It's for sure the easiest option, but that's by no means a good thing here; you are asking the setting to dumb itself down to have a stronger sense of identity. It's bonkers.

It is not a flaw, you just didn't read what I was saying carefully. Perhaps your scorn and disdain for me, resulted in you missing what I was actually saying. I've seen this happen a lot, when you simply dismiss people because you don't like them, you are disdainful of them, you judge and view them in the worse possible light, as unintelligent, you miss what they are saying. I have noticed there is a tendency, especially amongst Americans, to quickly judge a person based on something said in the past, then paint them with that brush constantly. Perhaps Americans are use to people never changing and read character or rather their impression on character over content. Usually this is a good metric to weight a persons words, however you don't know an online poster well enough to do so, and forum people do all the time. They get into an argument with one poster at some point, and they judge that poster continually in that fashion based on their character impressions after that one conversation - it's not like real life, when you have known the person in school for a long time or spent considerably more time and info on them to make that assessment, even then it's a bit judgey. But then people judge all the time and it doesn't take much..

This is not the ONLY way, but it is in my opinion the BEST way and by best I mean the easiest, least complicated, but potentially most rewarding way. I reckon you'd get the fastest and most effective results this way. That is an opinion.

i have made observations about the state of the game - observations I have provided basis for. The problems I have highlighted are well known issues, and the solutions I propose could definitely solve those problems, it makes sense they would. but as you observe they are not the only way. That has never been the point I was making. The point that it is the best way. We can debate whether that is true or not, however, even if it isn't the best way I can think of, it is a very good way to solve that.

Those who argue that it isn't a good way, seem to base this only on "not wanting to lose Quel'thalas and Suramar" - they haven't provided any convincing argument, but I understand they don't like it, because they don't want it. I have also noted that several times and stated I don't blame them or hold grudges against them for not liking it, it is expected that some wouldn't like this to change. But removing the alliance in the horde elves is still the best and most effective way to do this, and I don't think that wanting to keep Quel'thalas horde is a good enough reason to explore or force other more dangerous options.

Ofc it's not up to me, blizzard devs may like high elves on the red side enough to want to keep that no matter what, and will in fact even change the constitution of the factions and what they mean just to keep it horde. This off course is their right, but I've got to just wonder that they fell in love with the high elves on the red side so much they were willing to sacrifice what Warcraft was to keep it that way rather than simply move the high elf nation back and the night elf civilization onto the alliance and develop the blood elves and Nightborne into something different but just as cool. and in so doing restoring that integrity.

I just think that while they could do lots of other things, the most obvious, and simplest one is to take the alliance stuff back to the alliance, boosting the alliance that way, and fixing the faction disparity. But if not, fine continue in this more homogenised way, let the redefinition of the factions, especially the horde continue. Who says there has to be even a horde and alliance? They're changing so much as it is, in this current direction, soon the only thing originally Warcraft about them would be the names.

Now this

It's just so patently obvious that your goals are to have the "highborne" aesthetic and themes on the alliance it isn't even funny. If it was only about creating artificial distinction, then why not focus the alliance elves on their nature worshiping roots, and leave all the imperial classical fantasy to the blood elves and nightborne? because the most transparent thing here is that the classical imperial themes you oh so desire have never been part of the alliance identity.

Because I want the Highborne stuff, which is kaldorei properly on the alliance and disagreed with the Nightborne going horde, quite vocally, and all that doesn't mean that I'm wrong about what I say, regardless of what my motive is.

As it stands right now, having just as many night elf and void elf toons as I do Nightborne and blood elf, toons. You can be sure i don't hate the horde.. i don't have that fan partisanship and my conclusions about this are actually based on the health of the game.. I've always thought it terrible how rubbished the alliance was made to prop up the horde.. people who read those statements, especially partial partisan minds, assume that me saying this means I am an alliance fan - they just can't fathom that a neutral person can look at the game and say.. the alliance is been thrown under the us, because they are so partisan, they can only see things in terms of enemy.. so naturally the horde ones will disagree with anything pro alliance I say.

i have never been in support of the night elves joining the alliance, my Highborne focus has been entirely on restoring the night elves not the alliance. I will tell you what you may fail to notice about me, but i like things in the game making sense and being good. i like things being consistent. And to me, that means the high elves (incl the blood elves in the behaviour and culture they are currently presented as) are alliance, this is what the original alliance and it's core is made up of the civilization and culture , attribute of the humans, high elves and dwarves.

You can't take the core alliance race over to the horde forever and not expect to change the face and structure on what these factions mean.

The Nightborne are incivdedentally, they are the part of the kaldorei that is the most alliance themed i.e. the pre-sundering night elven civilization and empire. If the night elves were their own faction, they and all things pre-sundering night elf, would be an important part of the diversity and complexity for a faction leading race like the night elves were originally designed to be, but without other factions they are alliance too in that vein they are presented in. You don't get more benevolent, kaldorei nobility type than you do in Thalyssra and her Nightfallen group who are supposed to represent the true heart of the Suramar population a night elven populace over 10,000 years old reclaiming their original noble heritage (as stated by the q - this is once more alliance character, alliance themed civilization (the night elf one now) again on the horde.

I don't think this good not because i am an alliance fan or a Highborne obsessed, but because it is ruining the core of the game (but you may prefer the word change to ruin - same thing, if changed the new core would not be the same as the old, the old would be ruined). The alliance has been portrayed so poorly in the last 12 years, it makes the series worse, this isn't good either. I know blood elves going horde had a good reason - it was to fix numbers - not to redefine the factions, and I know building up the horde was to change it's perception - so that it would be more popular and desirable, not specifically to make it more alliance - making it more alliance was the way they thought it would achieve those goals.

As such the other side was bad, and this is never good, when one faction just seems naff than the other, you might have feel good for being horde but it isn't challenging or rewarding when your opposition is so silly.. none of these things are good.

Knowing the motive and reasoning for blood elves being on the horde and the change in direction - my point has been, it's already achieved what it set out to do, which was make the horde more popular and playable, it wasn't intended to change the fabric and constitution of the horde that was a side effect, and one that isn't particularly good, nor bad, (either) I acknowledge, but the it isn't really what Warcraft is about and the charm of the original state is lost, so it is worth removing that side effect, restoring the heart of Warcraft .

Off course they can disagree and keep things as is, but I don't feel "as is" is anywhere near as compelling as before.. not in this current format anyway.

It is a sub-optimal state for the factions currently, but it is also transitional. The factions can't stay like this nor will they, you can either restore them to the original core or continue to evolve them into something new - a world where horde and alliance are more abstract entities with only minor ideological differences, having only cosmetic distinctions providing a superficial but visual semblance of difference/distinction, to the extent that this will result the realisation their need to separate the players would become irrelevant and they would remain only a lore /story device element - either because players will be able to choose their faction regardless of race or players will be able to group , guild and raid together regardless of faction.


It's one of the two developments. This current state is sub-optimal to either .. you may like things to stay as they are, but the faction separation stance of today is better with the horde and alliance more distinct and after their original premise... and if you think that progressing the current trend is better like Beloren does, then the end result is more homogenised factions or to a larger extent factions become meaningless to gameplay. then it won't matter how many people horde or alliance have.

They must choose which they want. Not you or I, they must decide whether it's worth keeping the core of Warcraft intrinsic to the game in which case the high elves and night elven civilization need to be divorced from the playable blood elves and Nightborne and go to the alliance, then the remaining blood elves and Nightborne on the horde be developed away from that, and all the other things I've said. the alliance is promoted and given the red carpet treatment for an expansion or two to significantly raise its profile again and equalise the numbers, and then they competitively boost both factions, no longer giving one faction all the best things.

When the High Elves were part of the alliance, it was with druidic/ranger themes, which then the NE continued. There's nothing about the elven empire themes that have ever been alliance, not even close.

If we were going to take your argument about exclusivity and identity seriously, then the answer is not removing BE's from the horde, but to clearly separate the NE and BE aesthetics; As it as always been, alliance elves would focus on nature themes, and blood elves + nightborne on the high fantasy magical imperial themes.

So no highborne on the alliance, NE and HE become entirely druidic, and BE and NB entirely arcane focused.

Makes far more sense than completely removing the BE's identity, no? But you wouldn't accept that, because we all know your argument lacks any actual integrity and does not exist at all for the sake of the game.

This is not true and you know it. you're just trying to counter the argument because it reveals the truth about the situation and to accept it means accepting the conclusions it means. You may tell yourselves that the high elves have nothing to d o with the alliance, but the alliance was built on the concepts blizzard gave to the elves, humans and dwarves.

And when the blood elves joined the horde, they reverted them to their high elf tradition, gave them the high elf home rather than the new home on outland WC3 TFT had created for them and was developing them into part of a bad boy anti-hero faction of elves with Illidan.

Right now you only need to know Warcraft history and just look at the blood elves and you see far more in common and in line with all the alliance races than any horde race. And so the Nightborne that come, have things only in common with the blood elves but no other horde race, while they have so much in common with the night elves, especially the Highborne, the high elves, the void elves, the draenei, the humans, the dwarves than they do the trolls, orcs, tauren, goblins etc.

No one is saying that the horde can't have unique races that are different, the Pandaren are an excellent example, but if you are considering the blood elves as unique, they are not, they are alliance, they may be unique on the horde but it is an alliance theme there, you should want them to become something not tied to the alliance, something more unique, in a similar vein to that I suggested, which is they lose all things high elves (and the Nightborne lose all things kaldorei civilization and Highborne) both in their culture, behaviour, temperament, and later in their architecture and even aesthetic. while the models won't change, they can gain additional optional customisations that would allow them different looks, architecture is easy enough to change, but for the rest, you have to narratively take them i n a different direction. Blizzard has done this before, Kael'thas in TFT was going that direction, and we saw hints of it in TBC with the Sunsworn, Elisande's loyalists and their attitude is different to the benevolent pre-sundering kaldorei attitude Farondis had.. this is why Azshara's Highborne became naga, a different race, and the naga seem very different from the kaldorei - pre-sundering and long vigil alike. Even their architecture becomes different.

This is where you take the horde elves. You aren't losing them as playable, you're not even losing their models, nothing like that, they are just losing that high elf identity and the night elven kaldorei civilization identity they currently have. this is what you are arguing so strongly to keep.

At the end of the day, the wisdom or folly to do either is based on what blizzard regards as best for the game. Regardless of whether I want Highborne or high elves more apparent on the alliance. at this point , i don't care, not like i use to, i already have Highborne and high elves on the alliance, and i have the high elf kingdom and night elf civilization available on the horde. i don't need to make these arguments to get them on the alliance just to enjoy them.. they are already there.

My motive for making these arguments here now, is to improve the alliance, balance the game, fix the horde, and generally restore the core of Warcraft. It's not the only position I advocate, but for strengthening and healing Warcraft's core this is the route i'll take.

If I could determine what route they'd take , my first option would be more factions

1. Four factions. alliance, horde, Kaldorei or the Night faction and the Undead
2. I'd take the elves and a few races neutral in the manner Beloren has suggested.
3. I'd do the Return of the High elves and Rise of the Kaldorei like I have suggested, with all the improvements to the alliance and the horde i have suggested above.

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The Situation Is Serious enough

@MyWholeLifeIsThunder The way things are going, without a drastic and serious effort to make the alliance viable, we will lose both factions and what it means to have factions.

This is neither good nor bad, but no factions isn't really what Warcraft is/was - but maybe Warcraft needs to die and new Warcraft be born.

However if they want to keep Warcraft, they can't just let things go on as they are, alliance players continually going horde nonstop, no incentive to remain alliance - not ideologically or thematically, not socially.. face it, go horde, you have the blood elves and Nightborne providing all the things you expect of the alliance.

Well this is a problem for the faction concept of Warcraft, nothing more. Want to fix that, take action now, make the alliance feel special and interesting again, attractive. how? Elves, elves, elves, they mean more to alliance fans and enough of the horde to make the difference, the high elves and the night elves are well loved, but the best parts of them are visible on the horde in the blood elves and Nightborne, and those that remain on the alliance, the Darnassians and Void elves are vast shadows of what the lore paints of the high elves and the Kaldorei (who can be a lot more when you provide both pre-sundering and long vigil parts to make them the epic faction grade race they were).

This means all the cool high elf and night elf civilization parts of the blood elves and Nightborne must be removed from them and returned to the alliance and made to look good. It doesn't mean the horde has to permanently lose out if you replace the lost elven stuff with orc, troll stuff, and if you redefine/develop the blood elves and Nightborne into something new/unique.. even if you make them the anti-hero types they were going to be in TBC or the sinister, megalomaniac empire building near naga type the Elisande loyalists were going to be - complete with new architecture, shifted cultural and ideological values from benevolence and the kaldorei type of high society to something new.

This is what I would counsel doing. So many issues fixed and things improved and all it cost was the horde losing an elven element that wasn't really horde to begin with. For the price of Quel'thalas and Suramar, it is well worth it if you ask me. I wouldn't fight to keep the game in this spiralling decline just so the blood elves can brag about Quel'thalas, and horde Nightborne can have feel good about a city and race they have never needed. But was given for eye candy treats and likely just because it was habit to give horde the shinier things. If you can look above and beyond sentimental attachments, you will see that by far this ist he most effective and least obtrusive solution.

Sure it will cause a row, but it wasn't be as bad as burning down Teldrassil and geocoding the kaldorei, or losing Lordaeron.


Alliance get the bulk of the High elves, Horde get the bulk of the Pandaren
The horde loses the high elf aspect of the blood elves completely, and diminish ( to be rebuilt into something new down the line), so that the high elves become a big thing on the alliance again with the kingdom going blue and being restored fully to high elven stuff.. the counter;

The Pandaren skew far greater horde, the Tushui are a small remnant group of Pandaren that stay loyal to the alliance, meanwhile the Huojin influence grows and much of Pandaria favours horde, the culture becomes associated with the horde as others like Mogu etc join in ( to be rebalanced later when the blood elves are regrown and redeveloped.

The reason for this is that both these races have been shared, but the Thalassian template is 100% alliance, therefore all things high elven about it should return to the alliance both to boost the alliance and restore the faction theme. The Pandaren are a unique race and culture, they can fit on either faction and were given to both, however, it would be fine for the Pandaren to heavily favour the horde instead as the high elves will alliance. It's fine that people start identifying the Pandaren more with the horde, as they do the high elves with the alliance. The Pandaren are more monstrous, but they are cute/friendly, they have also already been pre-disposed to the horde, Chen Stormstout had many adventures with the horde and Vol'jin, and almost nothing with the alliance, the one book based on Pandara, Shadows of Vol'jin was far more horde centric than alliance.

The high elven civilization, Silvermoon, Quel'thalas are all alliance themed, but the Pandaren have a beautiful civilization too that isn't themed on any faction, so is free

The Kaldorei rise massively, the Forsaken rise massively
The same occurs with the Nightborne, Suramar goes alliance, thanks to the actions of the horde most citizens hated and the friendliness of Highborne night elves, broken isle ones, Dalaran wizards, Lightforged draenei, void elves and ofc Quel'thalas and the High elves' return. The Nightborne are also healing to their original night elven forms, Suramar naturally progresses alliance, a few hate that mindset, prefer the horde's, don't see themselves as defenders, but conquerors that need to perfect the world, they view the Nightborne form as a symbol of progression, and use magic to halt the Arcan'dor's effect reverting to the Nightborne.

The kaldorei are built up, we see the full power of the pre-sundering civilization with their capital in Suramar, Highborne, Shal'dorei night elves, Moonguard, Moon Priestesses all empowering, a new well, their dignity and nobility restored and firing.. they are perfectly complimented by the long vigil groups, the druids and their packs, the sentinels and forest hunters, the wardens and the demon hunters -Shaladrassil world tree, the night warrior linking in to the civilization wing Priestesses, with the font of Elune etc

In Contrast the Forsaken are the one that grow and develop, they become leaders of the the remaining scourge, and control vast swathes of Northrend, factions like the Ebon blade, the San'layn etc are all skewed horde because of this

The idea is here, is that though the kaldorei are part of the alliance, and the forsaken are part of the horde, they are massive powerful entities, almost like a separate faction, with their own storyline. Initially, at least for the first two expansions the Kaldorei would have the higher momentum and build, because they're further behind, need more building up and it's the alliance profile that needs raising, while the undead have had a lot more attention over the years. they will be built up, but more of the focus would be on showcasing the alliance factions. There isn't much to show for hte forsaken except how they come to power to rule the undead and a powerful entity toe to toe and horde aligned.

Their situation is more complex, they have far more mixed elements than before, with not all wanting to see everything burn, Lightforged forsaken and forsaken willing to work and be friends with humans. Lordaeron is no longer horde, but it is open to both humans and forsaken and both live there ruled by a council of both types of humans (undead and normal) with Calia leading. This doesn't mean all are at peace, there are human elements that want them gone, and forsaken elements that want the reverse.. it's quite a complex situation - both factions are racially involved but it's a neutral party that rules.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

SNIP

JFC can you TRY to be concise? All this rambling and meandering is maddening, all these wall of texts have little substance and you just keep saying the same thing over and over again with more words, and less clarity.

The high elven civilization, Silvermoon, Quel'thalas are all alliance themed

And you keep saying nonsense like this as if it's self evident and I'm expected to take you seriously.

So:

Strict thematic segregation between the factions would enforce identity; easy to do, but at the cost of any nuance. Literally dumbing down the narrative. Not worth it at all.

But even if they would go for it, removing the BE themes and aesthetics from the Horde and "returning them" to the alliance is the most asinine way to go about it. You want enforced dichotomy because it's the "easiest way" of enforcing identity, but want to do do it the most extensive and laborious way by completely revampining the elves on the Horde.

Wouldn't it be easier to enforce thematic dichotomy by just keeping the elven arcane/imperial themes on the Horde, and druidic/nature on the alliance?

So then you add the nonsense about elves theme being intrinsically alliance.

You claim to want what's best for the game, but your arguments are contradictory and a thinly veiled justification for your night elven empire boner. And you end up with a baffling argument where you whole ass say that dumbing down the game and reverting its own narrative evolution for a more traditionalist fantasy would be the best for the game.

Jesus.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Well, I suppose anyone who likes being a Human servant would say all of this.

Now grow some pumpkins for your Human overlords. The Alliance is only the faction of "Human Potential."

The Horde is the best faction because the Alliance is nothing more than "Humans and the rest." Get used to it.

And get over the Nightborne. They are Horde, as is Suramar. Your just spouting this rubbish because you've tried and failed, for 3 years to come up with every excuse to have Nightborne having lore moments with ONLY the Night Elves and going Alliance. You don't want them to be with any other race, just nelfs. If Nightborne want to speak to other races, they should ask tyrant Night Elves first. That is actually quite selfish.

JFC can you TRY to be concise? All this rambling and meandering is maddening, all these wall of texts have little substance and you just keep saying the same thing over and over again with more words, and less clarity.

Lots of words with no sense behind them.
Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.

[Traveler Voltin]

Well, I suppose anyone who likes being a Human servant would say all of this.

Now grow some pumpkins for your Human overlords. The Alliance is only the faction of "Human Potential."

The Horde is the best faction because the Alliance is nothing more than "Humans and the rest." Get used to it.

And get over the Nightborne. They are Horde, as is Suramar. Your just spouting this rubbish because you've tried and failed, for 3 years to come up with every excuse to have Nightborne having lore moments with ONLY the Night Elves and going Alliance. You don't want them to be with any other race, just nelfs. If Nightborne want to speak to other races, they should ask tyrant Night Elves first. That is actually quite selfish.



Lots of words with no sense behind them.
Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.

why do you argue with someone who wont see reason?

[Varx]

So are velf players with pale skin still peddling the idea that they're actually helves? You know, despite turning purple during combat and mousing over their toon and it says "VOID ELF".

[Tanaria]

why do you argue with someone who wont see reason?

Because it's fun.
I also think it's fair that if Horde loses Quel'Thalas and Suramar, then Night Elves lose their Kalimdor lands. Ashenvale is renamed to Felo'Thalas and the Sunwell is teleported to the Zorum Strand. Nightborne claim Desolace and both Elves share Feralas and rebuild Eldre'Thalas for both elves. Destroy Isildien and make it a Blood Elf town and Darkmist, a Nightborne town. Feathermoon Stronghold becomes the training grounds for Farstrider and Duskwatch alike, and Isildien is the place where Blood Knight and Priest recruitment happens.

Then with the Well of Eternity and Sunwell, Lor'themar and Thalyssra command their Magi to erect a powerful barrier which prevents the Night Elves from every reclaiming their homes again.

I mean, if Ravenmoon wants to continue to be unreasonable, then I will also be unreasonable. Night Elves should be completely removed and their lands, including Desolace and Stonetalon, become the new Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei home.

[Mace]

why do you argue with someone who wont see reason?

Because there is reason, they darn well know it. One group will argue against ANY suggestion, proposal, idea or argumenet that supports high elves being playable - no matter how much sense it makes, because they simply don't want that to happen so it doesn't matter what pro high elves say as this thread proves - they will respond to everything and agree to nothing. But their arguments will never stop those who want high elves playable from wanting so and making arguments for it.

The people who want high elves playable on alliance are much much larger than those who don't. And playable high elves will affect the alliance (positively) a whole lot more than it would affect the horde negatively - especially if the developers go out of their way to ensure this is the case.


@Tanaria , @Beloren, @ravenmoon, @MyWholeLifeIsThunder, @Alanar, @Varadoc , @Vaedan

To be honest, I think warcraft needs the horde and alliance. It brings something special.

It is also more special when they are different and distinct, makes you get into them more and makes the two sides mean something more, if they keep getting more similar, what’s the point in being either except for cosmetics? You diminish your charm.

And is it worth sacrificing the high elven parts of the blood elves and the night elven parts of the Nightborne? I say yes, 100%, - the blood elves and Nightborne can live without those anyway, and the horde can too, in fact some would argue the horde will blossom with blood elves becoming more like the TFT bad boy group.

It’s like those who say racials should be cosmetic, I disagree, racials give a gameplay reason for picking a race, it makes it meaningful and because it is meaningful it draws people to the lore of the race too. Levels 1-10 (previously levels 1-20 starter zone and 2nd controlled zone of each race) actually painted a racial story that allowed you to get into the race. These are important, they make your game feel special, and the characters you play, whether class or race meaningful.

This is why all races cannot be allowed to have all classes (at least not all classes in the conventional way). I remember playing SWToR, without meaningful racials and no race based quests/starting zone, race has no meaning in the game except for cosmetic – it’s like a dimensions is lost from the game.

Remove the factions you remove Warcraft's soul, Strengthen them to the original, you improve on that.. its that simple.


I conclude, for maximum effect, it won't be enough for high elves to be available on the alliance. Blood elves would have to lose their high elven identity and all things related to the high elves while remaining on the horde, and the High elves major return to the alliance would have to be a significant and attractive. High elf skin tones for void elves won't cut it. The alliance needs its profile and image raised significantly to attract players back and balance the numbers on the faction. The game needs two viable factions to work. And the horde needs to lose the alliance themed components to make the factions distinct and recapture that heart.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

So are velf players with pale skin still peddling the idea that they're actually helves? You know, despite turning purple during combat and mousing over their toon and it says "VOID ELF".

I'm sure someone will pay you attention.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Or High Elves become Void Elves and remain vastly different from the light using, arcane weaving blood elves...y'know, like they are...?

And Night Elves stay at Hyjal.

Or you simply have to lose all your nelf Kalimdor holdings. You won't like it, but tough. You want to be unreasonable, then I will.
You don't deserve to keep anything on Kalimdor - Ashenvale is renamed to Felo'Thalas, the Sunwell comes with the Horde and both Lor'themar and Thalyssra command their Magi to erect a magical barrier that prevents the nelfs from ever reclaiming their lands.
The founts of power should be with the Horde, to symbolise what the Horde embody's.

Now obviously, Eldre'Thalas will be restored, but only for Blood Elves and Nightborne and the Horde. Isildien will become the town for Sin'dorei Priests and Blood Knights. Feathermoon Stronghold will become the stronghold for the Farstriders and Duskwatch and obviously, the important Magisters and Arcanists of the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei will remain in Eldre'Thalas, with Rommath being the general leader, but Lor'themar and Thalyssra will oversee the operations.
Perhaps Valtrois and Rommath can govern Eldre'Thalas together.

Ashenvale is where the Blood Elf refugees go. The whole forest is bathed in the Eternal Spring that mirrors Eversong Forest, but the whole landmass is there's. No Ghostlands or anything like that. Felo'Thalas becomes the new Thalassian home for the Sin'dorei, Children of the Blood...Blood of the Highborne, the Blood Elves.
Desolace can be restored in the vision of the Nightborne, with many of the ruins being restored. Thalyssra and Occuleth can primarily oversee this, whilst Valtrois works with Rommath in Eldre'Thalas.

The Draenei are also cast out as Rommath opens the Sun Gate on Bloodmyst Isle and the Elven armies storm and control those isles. The Forsaken can move in, where Kaldorei and Quel'dorei Dark Rangers can scout and control both lands. The Blood Elven Farstriders and Guardians, as well as Ley Keeper Velania maintaining the portal. They can also help their Forsaken colleagues keep the islands secure from the Draenei. Ranger General Hauldoran Brightwing, Ly'leth Lunestre and Dark Ranger Velonara keep the isles secure. This can also boost the relations between Shal'dorei and Forsaken.
We also get a possible old friendship between the Quel'dorei Dark Rangers and the Sin'dorei Farstriders, but also common ground is met between the Kaldorei Dark Rangers and the Farstriders. A small union of sorts, between former Sentinels and current Farstriders.

Victorie of the Duskwatch and Scout Captain Elsia could also monitor and manage the progress at the new "Sundusk Stronghold" in Feralas.

Look, this is worth the sacrifice and you won't think so now, but this is for the better. Kalimdor does belong to the Horde and Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei must have the Night Elf lands of Kalimdor.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Because there is reason, they darn well know it. One group will argue against ANY suggestion, proposal, idea or argumenet that supports high elves being playable - no matter how much sense it makes, because they simply don't want that to happen so it doesn't matter what pro high elves say as this thread proves - they will respond to everything and agree to nothing. But their arguments will never stop those who want high elves playable from wanting so and making arguments for it.

The people who want high elves playable on alliance are much much larger than those who don't. And playable high elves will affect the alliance (positively) a whole lot more than it would affect the horde negatively - especially if the developers go out of their way to ensure this is the case.


@Tanaria , @Beloren, @ravenmoon, @MyWholeLifeIsThunder, @Alanar, @Varadoc , @Vaedan

To be honest, I think warcraft needs the horde and alliance. It brings something special.

It is also more special when they are different and distinct, makes you get into them more and makes the two sides mean something more, if they keep getting more similar, what’s the point in being either except for cosmetics? You diminish your charm.

And is it worth sacrificing the high elven parts of the blood elves and the night elven parts of the Nightborne? I say yes, 100%, - the blood elves and Nightborne can live without those anyway, and the horde can too, in fact some would argue the horde will blossom with blood elves becoming more like the TFT bad boy group.

It’s like those who say racials should be cosmetic, I disagree, racials give a gameplay reason for picking a race, it makes it meaningful and because it is meaningful it draws people to the lore of the race too. Levels 1-10 (previously levels 1-20 starter zone and 2nd controlled zone of each race) actually painted a racial story that allowed you to get into the race. These are important, they make your game feel special, and the characters you play, whether class or race meaningful.

This is why all races cannot be allowed to have all classes (at least not all classes in the conventional way). I remember playing SWToR, without meaningful racials and no race based quests/starting zone, race has no meaning in the game except for cosmetic – it’s like a dimensions is lost from the game.

Remove the factions you remove Warcraft's soul, Strengthen them to the original, you improve on that.. its that simple.


I conclude, for maximum effect, it won't be enough for high elves to be available on the alliance. Blood elves would have to lose their high elven identity and all things related to the high elves while remaining on the horde, and the High elves major return to the alliance would have to be a significant and attractive. High elf skin tones for void elves won't cut it. The alliance needs its profile and image raised significantly to attract players back and balance the numbers on the faction. The game needs two viable factions to work. And the horde needs to lose the alliance themed components to make the factions distinct and recapture that heart.

I mean I also want playable High Elves, and I think you and Ravenmoon's proposals are the most asinine arguments I have seen in a while.

The whole traditionalism of "getting back to Warcraft's roots" is just... nonsense. Warcraft has been a continuously evolving narrative and setting since it's inception, it's built on progression of it's world. To try to pretend there is a hard core of Warcraft were its "soul" lies is a nostalgic mirage. And at worst, like with you and Ravenmoon, becomes a justification to say why Warcraft should be, as you want it to be.

You want the game to regress instead of moving forward, and that is just a bad take IMO. If there's a core to Warcraft, it's its evolution and progression of fantasy tropes, not your subjective opinion of what Horde and Alliance should be.

[Varx]

I'm sure someone will pay you attention.

Why not? It's a legit question. If I remember correctly people were trying to double think their OCD away by claiming that a pale void elf is actually a helf because reasons. All in an attempt to cope with the fact that helves will never be a race now since they have pale skin options. Is that insanity still prevalent or not?

Oh and that NOW belves are helves because it fits their MO. LMAO.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Lots of words with no sense behind them.
Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.

It's entertaining to engage with other opinions, even when they are dumb, but to have to parcel through heaps of filler is a punishment. Brevity is the soul of wit, and if you have to bury your opinions in verbosity and walls of text, I will start to believe you know your arguments are bad and are just trying to obscure them.

- - - Updated - - -

Why not? It's a legit question. If I remember correctly people were trying to double think their OCD away by claiming that a pale void elf is actually a helf because reasons. All in an attempt to cope with the fact that helves will never be a race now since they have pale skin options. Is that insanity still prevalent or not?

Oh and that NOW belves are helves because it fits their MO. LMAO.

I meant someone other than me hon.

[Varx]

Oh yeah? We shall see!

[Tanaria]

It's entertaining to engage with other opinions, even when they are dumb, but to have to parcel through heaps of filler is a punishment. Brevity is the soul of wit, and if you have to bury your opinions in verbosity and walls of text, I will start to believe you know your arguments are bad and are just trying to obscure them.

Like I say, let's have this right.

The only reason why these two are saying this is because they are so desperate to have the Nightborne on the Alliance. They have been for 3 years. They've tried every single avenue and Blizzard haven't done anything they wanted, so now we're on this nonsense.

I say, fight nonsense with nonsense.
Would you like to see Ashenvale renamed to "Felo'Thalas" and the Horde control both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity? I mean, having both is real "strength" goal which is an integral part of the Horde. As Lady Thalyssra states;
"Strength, determination, individuality."

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Like I say, let's have this right.

The only reason why these two are saying this is because they are so desperate to have the Nightborne on the Alliance. They have been for 3 years. They've tried every single avenue and Blizzard haven't done anything they wanted, so now we're on this nonsense.

I say, fight nonsense with nonsense.
Would you like to see Ashenvale renamed to "Felo'Thalas" and the Horde control both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity? I mean, having both is real "strength" goal which is an integral part of the Horde. As Lady Thalyssra states;
"Strength, determination, individuality."

Lol, but yeah, the thread is derailed enough as it is.

Like this is the High Elf thread after all, not the "let's completely redesign the factions" thread.

[ravenmoon]

Because there is reason, they darn well know it. One group will argue against ANY suggestion, proposal, idea or argumenet that supports high elves being playable - no matter how much sense it makes, because they simply don't want that to happen so it doesn't matter what pro high elves say as this thread proves - they will respond to everything and agree to nothing. But their arguments will never stop those who want high elves playable from wanting so and making arguments for it.

The people who want high elves playable on alliance are much much larger than those who don't. And playable high elves will affect the alliance (positively) a whole lot more than it would affect the horde negatively - especially if the developers go out of their way to ensure this is the case.

It's a classic case of you can't have my stuff. It's not about what's good for the game, or what would help, they don't want to acknowledge the other side because they're biased.. not everyone is, but some of these guys here are. They view the blood elves as theirs (ie..e the horde) and you (i.e. alliance) can't have our stuff - i.e. the blood elves.

It's elf players really that are like this, no one makes the fuss over the orcs or goblins or trolls - it's not even about theme or position, because if it was they'd be joining the call for the high elves to return because that race doesn't belong. instead they would rather the horde be changed from its core to accommodate this pretty alliance theme than lose it so it 's original horde theme can be restored. Because they view it as their stuff.

I have a 3rd person view, i look at it far more impartially than most, based on the themes presented, i want the alliance to be as it was and stick to its mould because this was good, and this sharing of themes is not as good as before, and it doesn't fit well. This is my motivation. Or the heart of my motivation.

Theirs is simply just "you want our stuff, you're not getting it" and "we'll make noise, kick and scream (out of spite and jealous rage) so the devs will never give you your stuff (which they call their stuff now), back" so these arguments continue, so much to the denial of the alliance nature of the blood elves.

And these were the same people a few pages back arguing that the blood elves were the high elves, but why were they making that argument then and now saying the blood elves aren't high elves, and aren't alliance/ because they just want to shoot down an argument that gives justifiable reason for the blood elves to lose their high elf component and the alliance gain it.

These people are not about what is good for the game or what will help, it's all about i want so you can't have it. Like a kid who gets given the other kids shiny toy, he only started liking it because of how much the other kid liked it. When the parent took it from its owner and gave it to him to play for a while, , he took it to heart as his and refused to give it back when the other kid said enough iw ant my toy back now. Now the parent (i.e. blizz) has to decide now that the other kid no longer needs the first kid's toy he the parent took from him, whether he should give the toy back to the first kid who was taken a turn for the worse and needs to have his spirits lifted up and cheerful again. This kid valued that toy more than any other.

I conclude, for maximum effect, it won't be enough for high elves to be available on the alliance. Blood elves would have to lose their high elven identity and all things related to the high elves while remaining on the horde, and the High elves major return to the alliance would have to be a significant and attractive. High elf skin tones for void elves won't cut it. The alliance needs its profile and image raised significantly to attract players back and balance the numbers on the faction. The game needs two viable factions to work. And the horde needs to lose the alliance themed components to make the factions distinct and recapture that heart.

And I believe they would if they make those changes I'm suggesting. The horde won't become unpopular or unwanted because the high elf components return tot he alliance and the night elven ones in the Nightborne. It's image wouldn't be hit at all, it's numbers will suffer a little as the high elf and kaldorei civilization crowd on the horde will return, making the horde lose numbers, but the horde would retain it's image, a good chunk of the blood elf populace pick them for the models, not for the story or for having Silvermoon, and that's not changing with this.

What's changing here is the alliance is going to be made to look good and have it's themes fully on its faction rather than spread across two, removing the lure that kept funnelling alliance type players over. The horde would be improved as well for being the horde, the loss of Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar is compensated with acquisition of Zul'drak, Farak, Aman, Grommash city built at Warsong hold and other assets from original horde races. Pandaren leaning heavily to the horde to would help.

The horde's not going to be dampened here, it wit's problem in 2004-2006 was it's image and perception as the rubbish or bad faction, something the blood elves as high elves helped turn around, but the hard faction focus on them fixed, so that now, in 2018's classic, without blood elves, the horde and alliance are equal on that realm - because they are no longer perceived as the bad faction.

The elf boost on the alliance is significant I outline (i.e. the return of the high elves and the Rise of the kaldorei) would be the keys in making the alliance attractive. Alliance players care more about the high elves and the night elves (both long vigil and pre-sundering civilization than they care about any other alliance race many times over. You only need read and see the posts about high elves and night elves/Nightborne and what they're about to see. it will work.

So, the horde won't lose it's popularity or image, but will bleed some numbers by this. The alliance will regain much of its lost image and we would have an era where the both horde and alliance are equally popular, but feel very distinct and diverse enough, in not just a superficial character model way only. But in the types of races, their character etc etc.. And the changes it took?

Both factions still have Thalassian elves, but the culture, the assets and bulk of the population are alliance because this is alliance themed race. The horde counterparts retain the model, but their identity is developed differently so they are distinct from the alliance and they are given some model additions (optional) that would make them appear a little more different, these will be cool to attract players to pick them but ultimately would be optional

The Pandaren would swing the opposite way, with the horde pandaren retaining the breadth of the culture's society and civilization, assets etc, and while a small group remain on the alliance, they would be developed away, they could also be given some alternative optional model adjustments reflecting development, cool ones to entice the alliance players to use those more.

With the Nightborne, no model incentives need be given, because the Nightborne already look different, Suramar going alliance is easy because the Arcan'dor turns the city 's Nightborne into their kaldorei forms healing the corruption of the Nightwell, with Quel'thalas and most of their blood elf friend snow high elves, disgust at the horde over Teldrassil and murdering night elves, along with a good friendship with broken isle night elves, Dalaran human and gnomish wizards, Lightforge draenei from the Argus Legion mission, it's overwhelming and more dynamic there. They join. This is part of the Rise of the kaldorei story arc that sees night elven regain their pre-sundering expertise fully through the Highborne, restored Shal'dorei and Moonguard as well as elevated roles for the druids, the sentinels, the wardens. The priests play a huge role as they have been the one constant through both the pre-sundering civilization and the long vigil one and can fit both kaldorei cultures quite well - big boosts to kaldorei power would be utilising the Well of Eternity, utilising Emerald Dream World Tree Shala'drassil, the night Warrior power and the font of Elune. The night elves are attractive and restored to their original vision on the alliance.

This will help the alliance's image and popularity. it's not that the horde won't have improvements, they just won't be as visible or as talked up, but they would have similar to match, for example the Undead becoming a powerful force and stronghold that the forsaken lead now or have a tenuous control over, with massive bases and control in Northrend, and a part in the new affairs of Lordaeron where Calia rules and opens Lordaeron to both living humans and forsaken so it isn't faction dominated, however struggle to dominate is still an issue between humans and undead especially outside. but strong and powerful friendships also exist between the two which allows a balance and state of peace to happen at Lordaeron. Teldrassil becomes a raid, while Lordaeron becomes a neutral city - both are not in the hands of either faction, but still play a role in the story.

[Mace]

I mean I also want playable High Elves, and I think you and Ravenmoon's proposals are the most asinine arguments I have seen in a while.

The whole traditionalism of "getting back to Warcraft's roots" is just... nonsense. Warcraft has been a continuously evolving narrative and setting since it's inception, it's built on progression of it's world. To try to pretend there is a hard core of Warcraft were its "soul" lies is a nostalgic mirage. And at worst, like with you and Ravenmoon, becomes a justification to say why Warcraft should be, as you want it to be.

You want the game to regress instead of moving forward, and that is just a bad take IMO. If there's a core to Warcraft, it's its evolution and progression of fantasy tropes, not your subjective opinion of what Horde and Alliance should be.

Look, it's not my proposal, it's Ravenmoon', I think it would work, but make no mistake, I won't be as bothered anywhere near as much he or you will be. From the point of making the alliance popular and restoring the horde/alliance dichotomy he has a valid point, from any other perspective, playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.

this thread is a wish fest QQ, nothing more.