1. #22961
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That's why I bolded the IN UNIVERSE bit; Thalyssra isn't meant to look like a different race than the rest of her people with a unique "phenotype." Again, in universe, Thalyssra is just a Nightborne, beyond her styling she's meant to look like a regular Nightbore. I'm not talking about the quality of the models here.

    Tyrande herself; unique model and styling, but greenm hair, purple skin, black eyes; those are ALL THINGS POSSIBLE FOR NE'S TO HAVE. That's my point; not about the limitations of models, but how all racial leaders with the exception of Alleria, represent an actual population within their faction; Alleria is the only racial leader that looks different in universe than the rest of her people, being a Void Elf that looks like a High Elf.





    Perhaps, but is also odd to say that Alleria doesn't look like a Void Elf when she is the Original Void Elf, you know? Trying to enforce an aesthetic separation in terms of hair color seems a meta-artifice rather than originating from the lore. It's just so wild they tried -and retracted-to enforce a strict color scheme restriction that to many was a transparent attempt to make VE's different for distinction's sake.

    So yeah, I can't say "blonde hair doesn't fit them" when Alleria literally has blonde hair, but I agree it would have been easier if her hair color got a bit washed out and that color was an option for players.

    It's just silly that skin color can remain in a non-void touched state but not hair lol. It might serve a purpose of distinction, but it's almost moot given the rest of the overlap -VE and BE now can stand side by said and appear to be the same race, just with a different hair style, and it's just silly lore-wise.
    While she is appearently the original, you sure about that tho? I mean..Its not that weird.. if you followed the discussion you know what the blonde hair means. With that in the back of my head I was trying to find a cure for this rediculous dumb topic. And I feel I have succeeded providing an easy solution. Its clear so far they wsnt to preserve some styles to blood elves.

    Apples and oranges m8, I am counting all these options and you should to. Its never stated somewhere that it only counts for a haircolor, style, armor. All options are valid and if they plan to leave some stuff out for the leaders then that is fine. Alleria always was weird, it makes you think even more about the asspull void elves are to begin with. Always felt like she was never meant to be the racial leader, but umbric was.
    For alleria its just easier to showcase her actually representing the NEW race instead of just enhancing the boners of high elf fans. If they dont plan fully copy blood elves to the alliance then just make her hair white like how she is in void form and keep the blood elves and void elves seperated with some options.. in this case the haircolor.

    I see want you mean, but no one will have an explanation for you.. thats void elves for you. I still believe Umbric is a better representive. Does alleria even call herself a void elf?

    And alleria wasnt the only one.. we lost one not so long sgo remember? Sylvanas says hi from 2004 till 2020 and yes we know she is undead elf representing the forsaken, so spare me that, but without rambling to much here the point was that we were never able to look like her. So for all the void elves who want to look like her all I can say is welcome to the club. No offence ofc.

    Anyway, they should come up with new options, alleria changing would go a long way, but ofc this could be a combination of both.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Dude you want BE's to loose their identity because you think "it will be better for the factions"; so the logic underneath everything you say is deeply flawed. Like for real, your views of the factions identity and what they mean just seem bonkers to me, and everything you say stems from that bizarre view, where you think that literally taking blood elves' identity away would make them fit better on the horde, because their identity is alliance-coded. It's utter nonsense.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Indeed; and it's actually a very specific kind of why, with a slight blue to pink shade to it. Overall it's just bizarre that Void Elves are the only race that don't have either white or black hair lol.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yeah, Nightborne definitely need more skin colors and wouldn't bother me to see more "peach skinned" tones, but I really want more dusky and deep shades rather than that.
    Would love myself some squinty eyes while we are at it. You know make them actually look like nightborne how they were first shown to us.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-01-18 at 03:50 PM.

  2. #22962
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Hmm, you do know what I mean with the whole nightborne problem right? Playable model sadly looks nothing like their npc counterparts.. so saying the player can look like thalyssra is completely false m8. Look at the eyes, ears, some hairstyles, jewelry etc. On top of that what you said: nothing of them makes them stand out. Well.. just look at their armor for example. I know they are build in one piece to no real gear, but playable vc npc is just to much of a difference. So no we cant look like them. People were stoked for them when we heard they were gonna be playable. We all know how well that ended. It shows in representation in how many people even play them.

    Yup, I like the idea of just changing alleria hair color and be done with it. Not a fan of giving blonde hair to void elves, it doesnt fit them realy, blood elf 2.0. Alleria isnt an argument cus she never looked like a void elf. Umbric is a better representation to begin with imo. Ash colors and white and black should be an option for them. Alleria should have changed with them imo. Its almost like she isnt an void elf to begin with, now that is weird lol. Its the other way around.
    So let me get this straight. On one hand you are claiming Nightborne look too different to Nightborne NPCs and Thalyssra and they need a serious overhaul and update, and on the other you would much rather have Alleria's model changed instead of give High elf fans at least a single blonde hair option. That sounds pretty hypocritical to pass on as fair, doesn't it? You are clearly just another Blood elf superiority obsessed Horde who thinks Void Elves should be permanently stuck with blue and grey hair. And no, don't try to pass on to me that different shades of purple will do the trick, because they will not.

    I have been playing this game for 13 years and have barely even touched the forums, but now that they gave us Void elves and light skins, even I have been teased by Blizzard to the extent that I cannot have any sleep fearing my Void Elf will be stuck with ugly hair colours for the rest of the history of WoW thanks to High elf opposers like you. If they did not want to give us High Elves they never should have given us Void Elves in the first place, and especially not the skins. Now that only some hair colours are missing it's like waving a bone in front of a dog! Will you just torture the dog and never hand him that bone?

    And I suggest you go and open your own forum about Nightborne, because this is clearly a forum about High Elves last time I checked, and your complaints about Nightborne have no place in a High elf Megathread. Is it so difficult to understand that requests about different races should be placed in different forums and not in the same forum to bass other people requesting something??

  3. #22963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    because this is clearly a forum about High Elves last time I checked, and your complaints about Nightborne have no place in a High elf Megathread. Is it so difficult to understand that requests about different races should be placed in different forums and not in the same forum to bass other people requesting something??
    Hi random, idk what you complain about drama queen, but I was only summing it up to Vaeden etc, why interfere so angrily? How about you sit the f down and take this cookie.

    You dont even know what you are talking about or read any of my previous suggestions, there is no heat here. This is not the first time I am talking vaeden or mywholelifeisthunder and and what I already said about white/black and ash colors. I am not falling for your cute little outburst here, look kid I am since from 2004 and onwards, whats your point? I suggest you just move along and dont be a douche.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-01-18 at 06:47 PM.

  4. #22964
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Hi random, idk what you complain about drama queen, but I was only summing it up to Vaeden etc, why interfere so angrily? How about you sit the f down and take this cookie.

    You dont even know what you are talking about or read any of my previous suggestions, there is no heat here. This is not the first time I am talking vaeden or mywholelifeisthunder and and what I already said about white/black and ash colors. I am not falling for your cute little outburst here, look kid I am since from 2004 and onwards, whats your point? I suggest you just move along and dont be a douche.
    Wow, that's a lot of derogatory comments in just 3.5 sentences. But ok, I will roll with it. I apologise for the attack, but it is very irritating to have people suggest a change in Alleria's model as if this is going to solve anything. It will not, I guarantee you that. We have reached a point in WoW's history that the game is getting too old to have such hair colour limitations in place. There have been no other races or classes introduced since mid-BFA. Many of us are getting bored, and we cling on the things that itch us the most. Since no other classes or races are out they might as well work hard on customizations. I suggested a blonde shade with dark navy blue highlights (like the Starcursed Voidstrider shiny wings part). How about that?

  5. #22965
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Dude you want BE's to loose their identity because you think "it will be better for the factions"; so the logic underneath everything you say is deeply flawed. Like for real, your views of the factions identity and what they mean just seem bonkers to me, and everything you say stems from that bizarre view, where you think that literally taking blood elves' identity away would make them fit better on the horde, because their identity is alliance-coded. It's utter nonsense.
    I think that's as good a reason as any. Blood elves don't need to have that alliance identity, in fact, initially they were given a new one, but snapped back to high elves.

    The devs can ultimately do what they want, but if they are considering making the alliance desirable and attractive and restoring faction original themes, identity and dichotomy in that or so "heart of warcraft" that's what they need to do.
    Orcs can befriend humans, elves can grow madly in love with trolls, they can do what the hell they want.. They are the ones that want two distinct factions and want their game based on that system. They expanded it to four in WC3, then cut it back down to two.

    They have the alliance meaning one thing, and the horde meaning another. They only took the blood elves to the horde to help with numbers, not to change their philosophy of who the horde as or who the alliance was... except that action has affected it somewhat.

    Well now the horde no longer needs that alliance race presence for it's numbers.. so why is it still there? If Warcraft is still about these two factions, then in order to make it work properly they need to fix this issue we have here.

    But it's not the only reason, the alliance now needs the numbers, and it would also receive the boost it needs by bringing the high elves back properly. As for the blood elves, they would benefit in many ways, a new direction has many advantages, it allows them to be clearly different form their high elf past, allows them to fit more in with the horde, no need to suppress them in the narrative of the horde because they're no "horde" enough or rather too alliancey.

    And you can do new things with them, this was after all the very reason they were coined in WC3. They weren't made to be high elves and now there is need for them to embrace a different direction.


    Going Forward With the Factions and the Elves -
    for the good of the Alliance, the Improvement of the Horde and the Good of the Game.


    The horde really doesn’t need the prettiest aspects of the alliance, nor the alliance high elven and night elven cultures and their lifestyle, cities etc, but the alliance really does.

    You the savage, beast, noble savage, cool beast are all hugely popular now more so than they were in the 90s and early00s when far more people looked down on such things, now everyone wants to be the man with calls, and doesn’t mind being the monster – or the bad boy, especially if you make it look cool and give it cool things.

    Classic shows that without blood elves, the horde is holding its population, so I very much don’t think the horde will spiral or be crippled to an unsustainable level if most of the NPC blood elves in Quel’thalas return to the alliance as high elves and Suramar also goes night elven.
    Meanwhile the horde continues to have the cool monster, primal majestic civilizations like the Zandalari can arrive in new variations like the Arrakoa, the Drakkari, Amani, a new Orc/ogre stronghold city.

    And blood elves can take on a more horde centric personae and development. people found Illidari blood elves, San’layn, and Darkfallen elves quite cool – these are really nothing like high elves, nor are Naga or Felborne anything like the Night elves they once were.

    Finally, you do realise the blood elves are being held back on the horde precisely because they are so alliance like – it’s not that they are not-horde like, it’s because they’re very alliance seeming, so it’s hard to make them more prominent in the story being so alliance, they will be immediate beneficiaries of this move, and can actually, once they are developed into something unrelated to their alliance themed racial past, actually play far more visible role in horde stories.

    How you Proceed

    At his stage of the game, with void elves, skin tones, the history and need to revitalise the alliance, blizzard should give high elves in full. The fact that blood elves will have the same model ofc doesn’t help going in the distinction direction – but like Pandaren, it’s already here. Just like we won’t remove blood elves form begin playable to fix the system, so to we won’t stop high elves from coming in fully because of model similarities, as it’s already there.

    What we will instead do is adjust narrative and perception to make the two as distinct as possible in other very noticeable and visible ways.
    Blood Elves
    1. Blood elves new direction that is very different from high elves
    2. 2. Blood elves get new architecture and established in new zones
    3. Blood elves will get new customisable options for their models to reflect new powers. These will be optional, but they will give alterations to the model that will alter the silhouette somewhat and make the model look different enough – you can still choose to let your blood elf look like it is now, but the idea is that the alterations new lore and features would be cool enough to captivate many blood elf players to using them. Blood lf NPcs will have the new looks, but a small handful, like 1 in 20 would have no new features.
    Nightborne:
    They are already looking different enough from Night elves. When Suramar goes neutral or back to the alliance, the Nightborne in there have all pretty much been transformed to Night elves, while a few decide to halt the Arcan’dor’s healing process to keep their new form, this is far more common amongst Nightborne who refused to join the alliance. These Nightborne believe conquest is the Shal’dorei’s destiny, their rightful place (as you heard from loyalist NPCs in Suramar), and were not repulsed by the War of Thorns genocide, unlike the vast majority of the city state. A necessary pragmatic and shrewd decision to win a war.

    To this effect, the Nightborne changes are largely in the story that show the development of how the Nightborne that stay on the horde depart from their kaldorei Suramar life they’ve known and becomes something else as they embrace their magic.

    1. Nightborne new direction is very different from thee kaldorei pre-sundering civilization nobility and benevolence that Thalyssra exuded in 7.0
    2. Nightborne get new architecture (could be merged with Naga or with blood elves’ new one) and they are established in their own corner (my suggestion is Desolace)
    3. Nightborne will also get new customisation options to show case new powers and developments but it’s not as important as it is for the blood elves.

    Equal Shares on Alliance and Horde:
    The way it will end up game wise, only two models are shared... The High elf model (with high and void elves on alliance, blood on horde) and the Pandaren.
    Pandaren would be heavily skewed horde, which means most of the Pandaren will lean towards the horde, and a few would lean towards the alliance. This is already evident in the quest chains in Pandaria anyway, the horde get a much better intro and explanation, the stronger bond is forged with Lorewalker Cho and the horde hero. Chen Stormstout has far more bonding with Vol’jin, the troll and the horde than the alliance. The Pandaren, while not a horde culture, are definitely a unique culture, rich, and majestic, and so fit the horde better. Their animal appearance, while cute lends more to the horde too.

    The horde’s diversity is mis no longer because it has horde and alliance themed races but more like it has humanoid and furry types.

    The Thalassians on the other hand are skewed heavily to the alliance, with most of the celebrity, history, assets of the high elves on the alliance. The horde does retain blood elves, but they are a small group and eventually advance in areas unique form the high elves. As do the San’layn and fel elves with them.

    The Night elves are also heavily alliance. But while Suramar returns, the models are still separate, with the skinnier Nightborne model only exclusive to the horde, and the more medium build healthier model exclusive to the alliance. Suramar is still alliance though, but most t of the Nightborne there have become Night elves again, to them Shal’dorei is a unique Suramar caste, like Highborne is caste, not a race. The Arcan’dor fully reversed these guys back to their night elven form, but while the process was happening they got much closer to alliance races including their kaldorei kin on the island, the Highborne from Eldre’thalas now helping the alliance, the human and high elven wizards of Dalaran, and they took great interest in the void a topic that Highborne Shen’dralar are known to have studied, void elves love, half of the Order of Elune is re-acquainted with and the druids are very interested in to help protect the emerald dream. The pursuit of knowledge, the overwhelming level of kinship and then their restoration to the night elves, just ended up resulting in most of the city having more business with the alliance.

    It didn’t help that Quel’thalas turned blue too, so most of their friends on the horde were now high elves on the alliance, and finally, the actions of Sylvanas during BFA, especially the war of thorns had shattered both the confidence and turst the Nightborne had of the horde, many argued that they should no longer have anything to do with the horde as this faction did not represent their value.

    Seeing that they had received most of the help from their night elven kin during the Suramar conquest both the islanders and the Darnassian contingent and the majority of the blood elven army that had helped out were now calling themselves high elves and allying with the alliance... they followed suit. Many had felt joining one faction was rush they were uncomfortable, some felt it was wrong not to be on the side of aiding their kaldorei kin

    So, the Suramar elves once Nightborne, are now Night elven again, the Shal’dorei Night elves, they are marked by arcane tattoos, glowing hands and arcane features to their hair that comes in 3 types, electrified strands of silver, bright purple and pink purple. A 3rd option is added to the night elf hair accessory, and that’s stars, signifying the kaldorei of the stars – so you can choose either vines, arcane strands or stars for your hair.

    The Arcan’dor process can be magically halted or stalled, but most people who are in Suramar love their original night elven appearance, a few prefer the new Nightborne look, so retain it, but this is not accessible to alliance players.

    Some a few number of Nightborne much preferred the horde, It’s character and its strength and have ambitions of ruling or controlling it anyway, they choose to remain with the horde and also attempt to restore Elisande, whiles Elisande isn’t enemy, this is viewed as hostile and they get banned from the city, but they succeed in that task, and this is part of a long storyline over 1 or 2 expansions that will see the horde Nightborne make new developments distinctive and different from their Suramar and Night elven past. They consider themselves the true Nightborne, and the name slowly comes to be exclusive to them. Their race is the Shal’dorei. While the city Shal’dorei are Night elves now, Highborne Shal’dorei night elves or just Shal’dorei night elves if they weren’t Highborne.

    Potential Advances and Sub races:

    Alliance:
    High elves allied race in the Return of the high elves (none glowing eye options added to the Thalassian model)
    Emerald Dream Worgen Night elf allied race in the Rise of the Kaldorei, in addition arcane customisations to represent Suramar Nightborne who regain their kaldorei form by the Arcan’dor (new arcane tattoos, and star and arcane hair options in addition to vines, glowing hands options). The new worgen are half night elf half animal with features that correspond to their enhanced form. 3 enhanced forms are customisable a wolf man (new worgen model) a bird man (modelled on the harpy) and a Panther man (modelled after the Zul’Gurub High priestess Arlokk/Bethekk and the Saberon), a bear man (modelled after the Guardian druid mage tower bear form Artifact appearance)

    Horde:
    Forest and Ice Trolls – loss of Quel’thalas/Silvermoon and Suramar precipitate the gain of Zul’drak, Zul’Aman, Zul’Farak and the playable bulkier model of troll.
    San’layn/Darkfallen blood elf customisations – to represent one of the shifts in the blood elf (red eyes, Dk undead skins), more developments to come.
    Mogu become a playable allied race in part of a story that sees the growth of horde and Pandaren relationships, in addition Tauren get Yaungol face and skin tones customisations. Rajaani Mogu, Huojin Pandaren and Yaungol form and extended unity that brings a new degree of stability to pandaren, winning many Pandas over to the horde, the Tushui Pandaren allied with the alliance.

    Let’s be Frank and Honest
    Despite all the advantages blood elves and the horde may get, and the ones the alliance may get, some of you may still not want this because it’s just not what you want. You lie the blood elves in this high elf mode, and I totally understand that.

    I can’t force you to change what you like nor what you want. I ‘ve only presented a picture of how things good be different and better for many things to do with the game. By just affecting those two alliance races on the horde.

    It’s not a popularity contest, , I am convinced that things will be better all round for everyone, better than it is with high elves and their culture sitting on the horde or night elven civilization sitting on the horde – as much as you have come to be use to it, it’s broken and it isn’t good for Warcraft in the theme the devs like so much, and it is un-necessarily breaking the game.

    At the end of the day, the horde only needs the models available to play, but there is so much more you can do with what remains after the high elves return to the alliance, it will be much healthier.

  6. #22966
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I think that's as good a reason as any. Blood elves don't need to have that alliance identity, in fact, initially they were given a new one, but snapped back to high elves.

    The devs can ultimately do what they want, but if they are considering making the alliance desirable and attractive and restoring faction original themes, identity and dichotomy in that or so "heart of warcraft" that's what they need to do.
    Orcs can befriend humans, elves can grow madly in love with trolls, they can do what the hell they want.. They are the ones that want two distinct factions and want their game based on that system. They expanded it to four in WC3, then cut it back down to two.

    They have the alliance meaning one thing, and the horde meaning another. They only took the blood elves to the horde to help with numbers, not to change their philosophy of who the horde as or who the alliance was... except that action has affected it somewhat.

    Well now the horde no longer needs that alliance race presence for it's numbers.. so why is it still there? If Warcraft is still about these two factions, then in order to make it work properly they need to fix this issue we have here.

    But it's not the only reason, the alliance now needs the numbers, and it would also receive the boost it needs by bringing the high elves back properly. As for the blood elves, they would benefit in many ways, a new direction has many advantages, it allows them to be clearly different form their high elf past, allows them to fit more in with the horde, no need to suppress them in the narrative of the horde because they're no "horde" enough or rather too alliancey.

    And you can do new things with them, this was after all the very reason they were coined in WC3. They weren't made to be high elves and now there is need for them to embrace a different direction.


    Going Forward With the Factions and the Elves -
    for the good of the Alliance, the Improvement of the Horde and the Good of the Game.


    The horde really doesn’t need the prettiest aspects of the alliance, nor the alliance high elven and night elven cultures and their lifestyle, cities etc, but the alliance really does.

    You the savage, beast, noble savage, cool beast are all hugely popular now more so than they were in the 90s and early00s when far more people looked down on such things, now everyone wants to be the man with calls, and doesn’t mind being the monster – or the bad boy, especially if you make it look cool and give it cool things.

    Classic shows that without blood elves, the horde is holding its population, so I very much don’t think the horde will spiral or be crippled to an unsustainable level if most of the NPC blood elves in Quel’thalas return to the alliance as high elves and Suramar also goes night elven.
    Meanwhile the horde continues to have the cool monster, primal majestic civilizations like the Zandalari can arrive in new variations like the Arrakoa, the Drakkari, Amani, a new Orc/ogre stronghold city.

    And blood elves can take on a more horde centric personae and development. people found Illidari blood elves, San’layn, and Darkfallen elves quite cool – these are really nothing like high elves, nor are Naga or Felborne anything like the Night elves they once were.

    Finally, you do realise the blood elves are being held back on the horde precisely because they are so alliance like – it’s not that they are not-horde like, it’s because they’re very alliance seeming, so it’s hard to make them more prominent in the story being so alliance, they will be immediate beneficiaries of this move, and can actually, once they are developed into something unrelated to their alliance themed racial past, actually play far more visible role in horde stories.

    How you Proceed

    At his stage of the game, with void elves, skin tones, the history and need to revitalise the alliance, blizzard should give high elves in full. The fact that blood elves will have the same model ofc doesn’t help going in the distinction direction – but like Pandaren, it’s already here. Just like we won’t remove blood elves form begin playable to fix the system, so to we won’t stop high elves from coming in fully because of model similarities, as it’s already there.

    What we will instead do is adjust narrative and perception to make the two as distinct as possible in other very noticeable and visible ways.
    Blood Elves
    1. Blood elves new direction that is very different from high elves
    2. 2. Blood elves get new architecture and established in new zones
    3. Blood elves will get new customisable options for their models to reflect new powers. These will be optional, but they will give alterations to the model that will alter the silhouette somewhat and make the model look different enough – you can still choose to let your blood elf look like it is now, but the idea is that the alterations new lore and features would be cool enough to captivate many blood elf players to using them. Blood lf NPcs will have the new looks, but a small handful, like 1 in 20 would have no new features.
    Nightborne:
    They are already looking different enough from Night elves. When Suramar goes neutral or back to the alliance, the Nightborne in there have all pretty much been transformed to Night elves, while a few decide to halt the Arcan’dor’s healing process to keep their new form, this is far more common amongst Nightborne who refused to join the alliance. These Nightborne believe conquest is the Shal’dorei’s destiny, their rightful place (as you heard from loyalist NPCs in Suramar), and were not repulsed by the War of Thorns genocide, unlike the vast majority of the city state. A necessary pragmatic and shrewd decision to win a war.

    To this effect, the Nightborne changes are largely in the story that show the development of how the Nightborne that stay on the horde depart from their kaldorei Suramar life they’ve known and becomes something else as they embrace their magic.

    1. Nightborne new direction is very different from thee kaldorei pre-sundering civilization nobility and benevolence that Thalyssra exuded in 7.0
    2. Nightborne get new architecture (could be merged with Naga or with blood elves’ new one) and they are established in their own corner (my suggestion is Desolace)
    3. Nightborne will also get new customisation options to show case new powers and developments but it’s not as important as it is for the blood elves.

    Equal Shares on Alliance and Horde:
    The way it will end up game wise, only two models are shared... The High elf model (with high and void elves on alliance, blood on horde) and the Pandaren.
    Pandaren would be heavily skewed horde, which means most of the Pandaren will lean towards the horde, and a few would lean towards the alliance. This is already evident in the quest chains in Pandaria anyway, the horde get a much better intro and explanation, the stronger bond is forged with Lorewalker Cho and the horde hero. Chen Stormstout has far more bonding with Vol’jin, the troll and the horde than the alliance. The Pandaren, while not a horde culture, are definitely a unique culture, rich, and majestic, and so fit the horde better. Their animal appearance, while cute lends more to the horde too.

    The horde’s diversity is mis no longer because it has horde and alliance themed races but more like it has humanoid and furry types.

    The Thalassians on the other hand are skewed heavily to the alliance, with most of the celebrity, history, assets of the high elves on the alliance. The horde does retain blood elves, but they are a small group and eventually advance in areas unique form the high elves. As do the San’layn and fel elves with them.

    The Night elves are also heavily alliance. But while Suramar returns, the models are still separate, with the skinnier Nightborne model only exclusive to the horde, and the more medium build healthier model exclusive to the alliance. Suramar is still alliance though, but most t of the Nightborne there have become Night elves again, to them Shal’dorei is a unique Suramar caste, like Highborne is caste, not a race. The Arcan’dor fully reversed these guys back to their night elven form, but while the process was happening they got much closer to alliance races including their kaldorei kin on the island, the Highborne from Eldre’thalas now helping the alliance, the human and high elven wizards of Dalaran, and they took great interest in the void a topic that Highborne Shen’dralar are known to have studied, void elves love, half of the Order of Elune is re-acquainted with and the druids are very interested in to help protect the emerald dream. The pursuit of knowledge, the overwhelming level of kinship and then their restoration to the night elves, just ended up resulting in most of the city having more business with the alliance.

    It didn’t help that Quel’thalas turned blue too, so most of their friends on the horde were now high elves on the alliance, and finally, the actions of Sylvanas during BFA, especially the war of thorns had shattered both the confidence and turst the Nightborne had of the horde, many argued that they should no longer have anything to do with the horde as this faction did not represent their value.

    Seeing that they had received most of the help from their night elven kin during the Suramar conquest both the islanders and the Darnassian contingent and the majority of the blood elven army that had helped out were now calling themselves high elves and allying with the alliance... they followed suit. Many had felt joining one faction was rush they were uncomfortable, some felt it was wrong not to be on the side of aiding their kaldorei kin

    So, the Suramar elves once Nightborne, are now Night elven again, the Shal’dorei Night elves, they are marked by arcane tattoos, glowing hands and arcane features to their hair that comes in 3 types, electrified strands of silver, bright purple and pink purple. A 3rd option is added to the night elf hair accessory, and that’s stars, signifying the kaldorei of the stars – so you can choose either vines, arcane strands or stars for your hair.

    The Arcan’dor process can be magically halted or stalled, but most people who are in Suramar love their original night elven appearance, a few prefer the new Nightborne look, so retain it, but this is not accessible to alliance players.

    Some a few number of Nightborne much preferred the horde, It’s character and its strength and have ambitions of ruling or controlling it anyway, they choose to remain with the horde and also attempt to restore Elisande, whiles Elisande isn’t enemy, this is viewed as hostile and they get banned from the city, but they succeed in that task, and this is part of a long storyline over 1 or 2 expansions that will see the horde Nightborne make new developments distinctive and different from their Suramar and Night elven past. They consider themselves the true Nightborne, and the name slowly comes to be exclusive to them. Their race is the Shal’dorei. While the city Shal’dorei are Night elves now, Highborne Shal’dorei night elves or just Shal’dorei night elves if they weren’t Highborne.

    Potential Advances and Sub races:

    Alliance:
    High elves allied race in the Return of the high elves (none glowing eye options added to the Thalassian model)
    Emerald Dream Worgen Night elf allied race in the Rise of the Kaldorei, in addition arcane customisations to represent Suramar Nightborne who regain their kaldorei form by the Arcan’dor (new arcane tattoos, and star and arcane hair options in addition to vines, glowing hands options). The new worgen are half night elf half animal with features that correspond to their enhanced form. 3 enhanced forms are customisable a wolf man (new worgen model) a bird man (modelled on the harpy) and a Panther man (modelled after the Zul’Gurub High priestess Arlokk/Bethekk and the Saberon), a bear man (modelled after the Guardian druid mage tower bear form Artifact appearance)

    Horde:
    Forest and Ice Trolls – loss of Quel’thalas/Silvermoon and Suramar precipitate the gain of Zul’drak, Zul’Aman, Zul’Farak and the playable bulkier model of troll.
    San’layn/Darkfallen blood elf customisations – to represent one of the shifts in the blood elf (red eyes, Dk undead skins), more developments to come.
    Mogu become a playable allied race in part of a story that sees the growth of horde and Pandaren relationships, in addition Tauren get Yaungol face and skin tones customisations. Rajaani Mogu, Huojin Pandaren and Yaungol form and extended unity that brings a new degree of stability to pandaren, winning many Pandas over to the horde, the Tushui Pandaren allied with the alliance.

    Let’s be Frank and Honest
    Despite all the advantages blood elves and the horde may get, and the ones the alliance may get, some of you may still not want this because it’s just not what you want. You lie the blood elves in this high elf mode, and I totally understand that.

    I can’t force you to change what you like nor what you want. I ‘ve only presented a picture of how things good be different and better for many things to do with the game. By just affecting those two alliance races on the horde.

    It’s not a popularity contest, , I am convinced that things will be better all round for everyone, better than it is with high elves and their culture sitting on the horde or night elven civilization sitting on the horde – as much as you have come to be use to it, it’s broken and it isn’t good for Warcraft in the theme the devs like so much, and it is un-necessarily breaking the game.

    At the end of the day, the horde only needs the models available to play, but there is so much more you can do with what remains after the high elves return to the alliance, it will be much healthier.
    That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.

  7. #22967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Wow, that's a lot of derogatory comments in just 3.5 sentences. But ok, I will roll with it. I apologise for the attack, but it is very irritating to have people suggest a change in Alleria's model as if this is going to solve anything. It will not, I guarantee you that. We have reached a point in WoW's history that the game is getting too old to have such hair colour limitations in place. There have been no other races or classes introduced since mid-BFA. Many of us are getting bored, and we cling on the things that itch us the most. Since no other classes or races are out they might as well work hard on customizations. I suggested a blonde shade with dark navy blue highlights (like the Starcursed Voidstrider shiny wings part). How about that?
    All fine, but honestly why is it annoying? Changing her hair color and actually changing that one thing solves two things.

    1: she now looks like an actual Void Elf, like an actual representive.
    2: Ash colors added to the void elves, uncluding white, black, grey. So you can actually be like her, but leaving blonde hair color for the blood elves.

    Seems fair, this is not even my orginal idea, but some one here who tried to find middle ground. I mean you cant please both and this is only slighty changing alleria, but for the good on both sides. I mean why would this be such an issue, its not like she is suddenly bald, red eyes or changing genders. No, now she is still unique, but slighty ligher hair and the best part is that players are now able to look like her in a way that doesnt clash with myownlifeisthunder suggestion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HateTrain View Post
    That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.
    It took way to long to even scroll down that essay, ignoring that.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-01-18 at 08:05 PM.

  8. #22968
    Quote Originally Posted by HateTrain View Post
    That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.
    Do yourself a favor and ignore the wall of headcanon.
    He's been like this ever since the Nightborne went Horde.

  9. #22969
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    All fine, but honestly why is it annoying? Changing her hair color and actually changing that one thing solves two things.

    1: she now looks like an actual Void Elf, like an actual representive.
    I do not mind that Alleria changes to look more like a Void elf and less like a High elf. It is what happens to the playable characters that I am concerned about. It would be great to get a single shade of blonde, even with a void corruption highlight effect on it (which I would love). I really love blonde but I feel forced to either play Horde to achieve that, or just ignore blonde elfs. Void elves already have two shades of grey, so there shouldn't be more grey added. White/Black sounds fine, and I would actually compromise to let blonde go if we got a light pastel pink. But I really see nothing wrong with a single blonde shade with void corruption highlights.

  10. #22970
    Quote Originally Posted by HateTrain View Post
    That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.
    Yes you keep telling me that - you make a very convincing point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    So let me get this straight. On one hand you are claiming Nightborne look too different to Nightborne NPCs and Thalyssra and they need a serious overhaul and update, and on the other you would much rather have Alleria's model changed instead of give High elf fans at least a single blonde hair option. That sounds pretty hypocritical to pass on as fair, doesn't it? You are clearly just another Blood elf superiority obsessed Horde who thinks Void Elves should be permanently stuck with blue and grey hair. And no, don't try to pass on to me that different shades of purple will do the trick, because they will not.


    I have been playing this game for 13 years and have barely even touched the forums, but now that they gave us Void elves and light skins, even I have been teased by Blizzard to the extent that I cannot have any sleep fearing my Void Elf will be stuck with ugly hair colours for the rest of the history of WoW thanks to High elf opposers like you. If they did not want to give us High Elves they never should have given us Void Elves in the first place, and especially not the skins. Now that only some hair colours are missing it's like waving a bone in front of a dog! Will you just torture the dog and never hand him that bone?


    And I suggest you go and open your own forum about Nightborne, because this is clearly a forum about High Elves last time I checked, and your complaints about Nightborne have no place in a High elf Megathread. Is it so difficult to understand that requests about different races should be placed in different forums and not in the same forum to bass other people requesting something??

    Horde fans, but the irony of them fighting so hard to keep high elves - who would have thought the horde would want to high elves so badly and want to keep them.


    Although ofc, many of these people are actually alliance fans who switched their toons as well as their hearts to the horde to be able to play the high elves. And now think that the high elves are glued to the horde and the alliance must not get them at all costs.

    it's insane really, never mind that high elves continue on the alliance since WC3, albeit it in much smaller numbers. Never mind the void elves coming to be, never mind that everything, i mean everything about them, including their lands, culture, cities, ideals, lifestyle is Alliance through and through,

    Yet all of a sudden otherwise intelligent people just become selectively dumb when it comes to them, because of that greedy desire to have something they like and love remain there.. that it, they think because they've been intelligent in the conversations that they can talk nonsense in this one and I'll still go for it.

    No horde pals, don't care if you have seemed super intelligent in other topics and discussions, failure to see what's in front of you even when it's pointed out to you, tells on you, and does not persuade me.

  11. #22971
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    I do not mind that Alleria changes to look more like a Void elf and less like a High elf. It is what happens to the playable characters that I am concerned about. It would be great to get a single shade of blonde, even with a void corruption highlight effect on it (which I would love). I really love blonde but I feel forced to either play Horde to achieve that, or just ignore blonde elfs. Void elves already have two shades of grey, so there shouldn't be more grey added. White/Black sounds fine, and I would actually compromise to let blonde go if we got a light pastel pink. But I really see nothing wrong with a single blonde shade with void corruption highlights.
    You mean.like double colors? It sounds interesting, could do with a very pale likeblonde and see the void corruption foming through, so you almost wble to achieve it, but still preserve that blood elf look. I think that is fair.

    Ps: dont waste your time on ravenmoon is my advise, do what you will with it.

  12. #22972
    Quote Originally Posted by HateTrain View Post
    That just sounds so god damned terrible it's hard to put to words.
    Nothing wrong with what he says or wants, it's just not what I would like.

    It may solve issues like alliance low moral and population, theme issues - but theme issues aren't actually issues from a certain point view.

    Form the point of view of the horde and alliance being two alien entities to each other based on the original problems, then yes, Bleves/Nightborne are too alliance themed to be on the horde.. but only from that perspective. If you have redefined the horde into something that incorporates those elements then it's not really the original theme but a new one, that's neither good nor bad.. some will like the new one, some will like the old one..

    The horde and alliance don't have to be super distinct, in fact there are a lot of us who feel that they should get rid off this dichotomy, because it's outdated, people should be able to pick whatever faction they want to play for and it shouldn't really matter. But even if they don't go all the way, they can go partially some of the way by making factions not matter that much - this is the direction we've been for a long time..why the rush to go back to the way things were or the heart of wow as they refer to it as?

    Where is the proof that this is such a bad thing? This is what I have issue with what Ravenmoon is saying - he is suggesting a rather substantial shift, even if it's elf centric, for something that isn't that important.

  13. #22973
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Where is the proof that this is such a bad thing? This is what I have issue with what Ravenmoon is saying - he is suggesting a rather substantial shift, even if it's elf centric, for something that isn't that important.
    Anyone who started playing wow after TBC or did not play the original RTS and classic might not understand this, but Wow seems to have lost it's soul, this is not a good thing, and it's important enough to do something about even if we disagree on what.

    To stay in the horde /alliance 2-faction system, and have it blurred or homogenised to the extent it has, has made a lot of things in wow lose it's mean, in particular the very founding faction s the game is based on - now if this is low priority or not important then have it your way. But I think the devs feel that this is what Warcraft is all about, and it's that charm that built it into the great franchise it is.

    They could abandon it, but it will just become like every other product and lose it's most dear function...still, who's to say the replacement won't be better right? Well many think wow's premise is already lack lustre, and I'm telling you having alliance on the horde via the blood elves and Nightborne is one of the major causes of this.

    Finally, I think the alliance low numbers is definitely something that is important, and warrants some serious effort to remedy. I don't think blood elves losing Silvermoon and Quel'thalas for big High elf return or Nightborne losing Suramar to catapult the rise of the kaldorei in order to put the alliance shining brightly on the map again is actually a big price to pay.

    Blood elves are only losing some territory and the Nightborne a city essentially, the alliance is gaining a part of its core that its fans have always held dear and gaining strength and presence to its two most venerated elven races - the two races they talk about the most, the high elves and the night elves.

    For restoring the alliance and repairing the faction theme, and the only cost is blood elves losing some land and Nightborne losing a city full of people in the narrative to the alliance? that's a tiny price to pay for a huge benefit - only the horde elf fanbois would be upset with it. If you ask me, this would do far much more than burning Teldrassil ever did. It won't just provide interesting drama, and a far less violent one too (if my suggestion of the ones in Quel'thalas not being murdered but instead returning tot heir high elf identity and the ones in Suramar having the Arcan'dor change most of them back to Night elves, simply drift into the arms of the alliance because of the sheer number of interest from Highborne, void elves, high elves, humans, draenei, gnomes etc that are much more like them.


    Blood Elves Do Not Feel Horde - Too Alliance:

    They may be signed up to the horde, but they couldn't feel less horde if you tried. And this is intentional, because blizzard wanted an alliance race of high elves on the horde to lure the alliance over...that's why the blood elves calmed down through the story of TBC and got "redeemed" into Light worshippers, and good ol high elf types. This is not horde-like at all, nor is that type of civilization or culture. The irony is that the Nightborne are even more benevolent, pretty much like the Kaldorei and Farondis Highborne types, Thalyssra and her Nightfallen rebellion lot hearkening back to the original nobility of the pre-sundering kaldorei - they fit much better on the alliance with both that attitude, culture, theme, civilization and aesthetic.

    The horde quests are all about killing , showing a blood thirst of some sort, or desire to conquer and be strong. This doesn’t fit the Nightborne character or the Silvermoon/Quel’thalas type blood elves – they’re more likely to sneer at this and go, typical solve everything with a fist or axe – and look down on the senseless killing – this is a very alliance type attitude, because these race are entirely based on that.

    The Nightborne and Blood elves were not designed for the horde, they were designed as the night elf sub race , a night elven people and the high elves.. blizzard even made the less alliance types like Kael'thas' Sunsworn and Elisande's Loyalists enemies different and apart from these playable types – and it’s funny how those are closer to the horde, though still a bit too alliance if you ask me.

    Making the Blood Elves more Horde Like

    Part of the development would be to make the blood elves and Nightborne that remain on the horde (i.e.t hose that don't return to being high elves and revert to being night elves from the Arcan'dor) feel more appropriate and fitting into the hordes theme, aesthetic and character even though they're going to be unique enough anyway. the main aim is that they don't feel alliance, so they lose the lands and architecture, character, theme, ideology, and all those things get modified to something cool but more fitting.

    Here are some examples to draw from:

    When I look at the 1. San’layn, or 2. the Illidari fel blood elves, I get a much different vibe from them, one that fits the horde a lot better and that doesn’t feel alliance. They don’t live in beautiful high arcane cities – there is an imposing dread about the fel elf architecture that’s legion based, and if the San’layn were to build something it would look like Revendreth and Castle Nathria – majestic and imposing but definitely not high elven and not associated with the alliance.

    My solution for the Nightborne remnant would be either to join the blood elves, or have their fate tied to the naga, another elven off shoot that has very little in common with the alliance type kaldorei – Highborne or otherwise. This is the direction they need to go.

    Night elves did not feel less night elven for losing Teldrassil or Darnassus, Blood elves will not feel less blood elven either for losing Silvermoon, also if the blood elves shift back to the more bad boy elf, closer to the likes of
    1. Illidari anti-hero types - basically the demon hunter customisations open up to a range of classes with new Orders for Warlocks and hunters replacing the old high elven Farstrider types and
    2. San’layn vampire types as well - a lot of these in the new Farstrider replacement order as well as a rogue order. They also lead the blood mage
    3. Blood Crystal Kael'thas Sunsworn types, this would be better .
    4. Nethertouched Blood elves - without the Sunwell, those who thirst for magic employ the nether - and instead of going wretched, they gain some awesome new customisations.
    5. old school high elf type - this is what should be next to none existence, however some blood elves hold on to that, few and far between, but they are available for players who want to model their blood elf after the Quel'thalas populace type, based on the high elves.

    I think people will like the blood elves becoming more hard core it is a development that fits the horde and feels tougher – it hs been my observation fans haven’t liked how high elven the blood elves have become too pussy like.

    People did not like them changing the night elves into passive human lovers – and while we can argue that the night elves were always benevolent from the lore if you actually bothered to read the texts and the books (and not just play WC3), they clearly had a tough ruthless side that had a moment in WC3, so that change in wow wasn’t welcome, partly because the hardcore side of night elves wasn't shown (rather than blizzard making them something they were not), and changing the Darnassian Kaldorei wasn’t necessary too, not while the night elves have the Highborne/Moonguard side of them that fits with the civilization and arcane magic themes of the alliance to draw from, they could and still can just use the Suramar restored night elves and Highborne Moonguard types to be the ones more involved with humanity and alliance culture, these Highborne/Moonguard types are after all the foremost in this sort of thing according to the lore, as their civilization is magically advanced.. so blizzard has a duality in the night elves to exploit, the more isolationist xenophobic seeming long vigil type druids and hunter priests, and the high civilization advanced arcane magic type Highborne/Moonguard and temple priests. But this is the lore of the Night elves, having half that on the horde in the Nightborne doesn’t make it any less night elven or alliance. What it does to is make the horde feel more alliance, and the lack of this part of the night elves on display on the alliance, makes the horde look more attractive to alliance type players luring them over, as well as making the night elves look like the lesser group. A night elf race having both pre-sundering magic/civilization types interacting with humans/gnomes/dwarves and high elves as well as more isolationist forest benevolent types that you use for wilderness type settings makes the race feel more alive, more complete and more importantly more based on it's lore.

    However all these aspects are all alliance based. Suramar, kaldorei civilization, benevolent noble elves, Elune worshipping priests or Light wielding believers, botanists or druids with magical science and faith, high society civilization and gentil character - all of that stuff is alliance. When it sits on the horde characterising the Nightborne, it is quite clear the Nightborne don't feel horde, to those who remember the original horde, and to those who pay attention to the tone of the quests.

    Take wow, despite the old guys being what they are, most horde quests are pretty savage and brutal, full of blood lust, revenge, rage, conquest, and a sense of honour that is orc based (think klingon from star trek), and not alliance like at all. Then you come to the blood elves and Nightborne and you get this very alliance type/behaving group - it's not unique. it may be unique to the horde, but it's not unique because it's 100% alliance.



    Therefore the horde ones have to change to keep the distinction and their assets and NPc population returning to the alliance would boost it.

    Blood elves don’t just have to have one theme, just like the night elves have several in the pre-sundering and long vigil groups , so too can the blood elves. Blood elves keep the starting experience off course, it just becomes phased like the Worgen and Goblin ones. you can return to the timeline via a Chromie visit. And enjoy Silvermoon all you want.


    High Elves Return
    So, the solution is the high elven aspects of the blood elves, simply become officially high elven again. And it's done in a glorious spectacular style to raise the profile of the alliance.

    They return as an official allied race, no need to make void elves have full high elven appearances. I recommend the story be done in a very alliance way, through reasoning, diplomacy that highlights the conflict in ideologies and character of the horde and alliance that prompts the blood elves in Quel'thalas to decide they're high elven, this is their identity and that Sin'dorei was not a change in their race or philosophy, but a period of mourning which has now ended.

    There is no slaughter of blood elves by the alliance and military capturing of Quel'thalas, the reason we have lots of high elves is because the blood elves in Quel'thalas chose to return to being high elves.

    not every blood elf agreed, some love the horde, love the blood lust, love the power and despised the high elven way, these remain loyal to the horde and continue to call themselves blood elves, in time we get to see them branching intensely into blood crystal magic, fel magic, bolstering their numbers with the Darkfallen and San'layn, and harnessing the Nether, they get a different style of architecture too that reflects these changes - think Crystal song forest, think legion, think Castle Nathria, with elements of Silvermoon - the result is a unique new style, that looks impressive, and powerful - not the delicate beauty of Silvermoon- that's alliance now, but it's replacement is just as stunning and majestic in a stronger more ruthless way. Some still carry the gentler touch of the old ways, but they are far fewer, enough to allow players who like that to roleplay, but not dominate the landscape of the blood elves.

    Meanwhile we see the high elves return. They are no push overs, you see much more of the Farstriders, the magisters and the priests become the face of the light rather than the Paladins. Silvermoon gets its update as blue returns, the magisters colour is blue, the Farstriders green, and the royal guard red.

    • high elves areas of focus are:
    • Arcane magic - mainly the frost and fire department
    • Sun magic - solar magic fire is a pursued development from their time as blood elves.
    • A lot of sun focus too
    • Farstriders - your bow slinging wood elf Legolas trope in force here


    Blizzard need to show these guys off in all the ways the fans love and desire of high elves.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-01-19 at 11:17 AM.

  14. #22974
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    You mean.like double colors? It sounds interesting, could do with a very pale likeblonde and see the void corruption foming through, so you almost wble to achieve it, but still preserve that blood elf look. I think that is fair.
    Yeah exactly thank you. I think that will satisfy both sides to an extent. Just one blonde with those void corruption highlights similar to starcursed voidseeker mount wings.

  15. #22975
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    I'm so happy Blizzard won't give the Alliance, Quel'Thalas and do the Horde out of not being the first ones to see a revamped Quel'Thalas for the Horde and the Blood Elves.

  16. #22976
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    I'm so happy Blizzard won't give the Alliance, Quel'Thalas and do the Horde out of not being the first ones to see a revamped Quel'Thalas for the Horde and the Blood Elves.
    What's funny is that I suspect if they did, you'd just shrug your shoulders and visit it with your alliance toon to check it out.

    It would likely have some big raid anyway involved with it to justify the revamp, so both sides will see loads of it, - at most all you lose is bragging rights for it, you'd realise , if you stay with the blood elves, that pretty much not much has changed, until they develop the blood elves further - in whatever direction, super arcane spirit elves or whatever - you might like em both.

    You might end up having a high elf toon, a blood elf toon, a night elf, a Nightborne and a void elf and enjoy all the things they all offer.

  17. #22977
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    What's funny is that I suspect if they did, you'd just shrug your shoulders and visit it with your alliance toon to check it out.

    It would likely have some big raid anyway involved with it to justify the revamp, so both sides will see loads of it, - at most all you lose is bragging rights for it, you'd realise , if you stay with the blood elves, that pretty much not much has changed, until they develop the blood elves further - in whatever direction, super arcane spirit elves or whatever - you might like em both.

    You might end up having a high elf toon, a blood elf toon, a night elf, a Nightborne and a void elf and enjoy all the things they all offer.
    I do enjoy my blood elf toons and nightborne toons on the Horde, with everything they've got.

    I mean, the alternative is them being basking in "Human Potential." If you like your elves basking in such, nobody is stopping you from being Alliance...I on the other hand, prefer being as distant from that as I can possibly get - with Silvermoon and Suramar on the side of the Horde. Where they rightfully belong.

    And you should really be the one who has to wait for his alliance elves to be changed. You've got Void Elves (Helfs aren't playable), and they suit being the opposite faction to Silvermoon. You might like the changes to Night Elves...but you'll have to wait for them.
    Blood Elves and Nightborne can remain as they are, on the Horde. Night Elves should either change or they lose all of their lands, to compensate for the Horde Elves losing theirs.

    We'll rename Ashenvale: "Felo'Thalas" and Eldre'Thalas can be kept the same. The Well of Eternity and the Sunwell, since the Magisters must teleport the Sunwell Plateau to Ashenvale, because Alliance Elves are dangerous...that'll be a huge boon to the Horde Elves. Alliance has the cities, Horde has the founts of power. Blood Elves and Nightborne can use the powers of both wells to create a powerful shield that protects Kalimdor from the Alliance so night elves can't retake their lands on Kalimdor...ever.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-19 at 03:37 PM.

  18. #22978
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I think that's as good a reason as any. Blood elves don't need to have that alliance identity, in fact, initially they were given a new one, but snapped back to high elves.
    Honestly I don't know how else to put that the premise that "elves are alliance coded" is nonsense. Again, your whole argument is based on nonsense parameters that you decided, based on an insultingly reductive notion of themes and aesthetics that WoW has spent more than a decade to add nuance to.

    Blood Elves have been part of the Horde for longer they have been part of the Alliance; the Horde has existed for longer with Blood Elves in it than not. This obsession to what Horde and Alliance themes SHOULD be is bordering on some pretty questionable ideas about traditionalism; beyond that, you are unable to accept, or even understand, that the factions evolve with time -as they should if there is an attempt at verosimilitude-

    It's as if you can't compute that your idea of what the factions should be doesn't line up at all with what Blizzard has been doing for over a decade and a half.

    Well now the horde no longer needs that alliance race presence for it's numbers.. so why is it still there? If Warcraft is still about these two factions, then in order to make it work properly they need to fix this issue we have here.
    And this is the main problem with all your endless arguments; your premise is simply flawed by saying "elves are an alliance race", faction is not intrinsic to a population. There's nothing to fix; canonically, the kingdom of Quel'thalas has been part of the Horde for longer than part of the Alliance, so the you try this weirdly traditionalist metanarrative approach that because HE's were introduced as members of the alliance, the are inherently alliance, disregarding all in universe motivations.

    Blood Elves were sent to the Horde for very practical reasons in terms of Balance, but the narrative was tailored for that outcome -much like how an actor is not available and their absence is written around on a show- We have to accept many lore choices come from beyond the narrative itself, but you don't get to decide what is valid or not, you don't get to decide HE's are inherently alliance because aesthetics and themes and that BE should not be part of the Horde anymore.

    There are just so many, may things wrong with your arguments, and IDEK at this point; does it all stem from a monolithic traditionalism because WoW dared to be subversive and give the Horde -made of "the monstrous races"- the prettiest race? Is all of this just based on a shallow and regressive cookie cutter fantasy ideal?

    All that it's clear is that your view and WoW's view seem to be intrinsically at odds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Anyone who started playing wow after TBC or did not play the original RTS and classic might not understand this, but Wow seems to have lost it's soul, this is not a good thing, and it's important enough to do something about even if we disagree on what.
    The problem is that is you have appointed yourself as the one who truly knows what WoW's soul should be.

    The other problem is that for some reason it is about the elves of all things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Form the point of view of the horde and alliance being two alien entities to each other based on the original problems, then yes, Bleves/Nightborne are too alliance themed to be on the horde.. but only from that perspective. If you have redefined the horde into something that incorporates those elements then it's not really the original theme but a new one, that's neither good nor bad.. some will like the new one, some will like the old one.
    But see, that's the biggest issue with Ravenmoon's "perspective", it just doesn't apply to the reality of the setting, because if one thing is pretty evident, is that Horde and Alliance have evolved from their inception, and now are seen as two political superpowers with contrasting ideologies -which gets brought up again and again, from the Pandaren faction choice, to the Nightborne joining the Horde-

    It has already been redefined -to move forward from that simplistic original view- Do you really think it would even be worth it to backpedal that now? Warcraft has evolved considerably; Orcs used to be outright bad guys, but then the Horde was made sympathetic and it wasn't just about the good versus bad guys, then the factions were set up as the usual fantasy good guys against the monstrous races, but then BC came -and then CATA and so on- and shifted that paradigmn with elves to the horde and space goats to the alliance.

    The paradigm has been shifted, and you have to ask yourself if it's even worth it to consider shifting it back. Do we loose nuance for a more simplistic but stronger sense of themes and identity? I don't think so; I think it's far more fitting if the factions explore their identity as political entities who believe in different things.

  19. #22979
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Honestly I don't know how else to put that the premise that "elves are alliance coded" is nonsense. Again, your whole argument is based on nonsense parameters that you decided, based on an insultingly reductive notion of themes and aesthetics that WoW has spent more than a decade to add nuance to.

    Blood Elves have been part of the Horde for longer they have been part of the Alliance; the Horde has existed for longer with Blood Elves in it than not. This obsession to what Horde and Alliance themes SHOULD be is bordering on some pretty questionable ideas about traditionalism; beyond that, you are unable to accept, or even understand, that the factions evolve with time -as they should if there is an attempt at verosimilitude-

    It's as if you can't compute that your idea of what the factions should be doesn't line up at all with what Blizzard has been doing for over a decade and a half.



    And this is the main problem with all your endless arguments; your premise is simply flawed by saying "elves are an alliance race", faction is not intrinsic to a population. There's nothing to fix; canonically, the kingdom of Quel'thalas has been part of the Horde for longer than part of the Alliance, so the you try this weirdly traditionalist metanarrative approach that because HE's were introduced as members of the alliance, the are inherently alliance, disregarding all in universe motivations.

    Blood Elves were sent to the Horde for very practical reasons in terms of Balance, but the narrative was tailored for that outcome -much like how an actor is not available and their absence is written around on a show- We have to accept many lore choices come from beyond the narrative itself, but you don't get to decide what is valid or not, you don't get to decide HE's are inherently alliance because aesthetics and themes and that BE should not be part of the Horde anymore.

    There are just so many, may things wrong with your arguments, and IDEK at this point; does it all stem from a monolithic traditionalism because WoW dared to be subversive and give the Horde -made of "the monstrous races"- the prettiest race? Is all of this just based on a shallow and regressive cookie cutter fantasy ideal?

    All that it's clear is that your view and WoW's view seem to be intrinsically at odds.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The problem is that is you have appointed yourself as the one who truly knows what WoW's soul should be.

    The other problem is that for some reason it is about the elves of all things.

    - - - Updated - - -



    But see, that's the biggest issue with Ravenmoon's "perspective", it just doesn't apply to the reality of the setting, because if one thing is pretty evident, is that Horde and Alliance have evolved from their inception, and now are seen as two political superpowers with contrasting ideologies -which gets brought up again and again, from the Pandaren faction choice, to the Nightborne joining the Horde-

    It has already been redefined -to move forward from that simplistic original view- Do you really think it would even be worth it to backpedal that now? Warcraft has evolved considerably; Orcs used to be outright bad guys, but then the Horde was made sympathetic and it wasn't just about the good versus bad guys, then the factions were set up as the usual fantasy good guys against the monstrous races, but then BC came -and then CATA and so on- and shifted that paradigmn with elves to the horde and space goats to the alliance.

    The paradigm has been shifted, and you have to ask yourself if it's even worth it to consider shifting it back. Do we loose nuance for a more simplistic but stronger sense of themes and identity? I don't think so; I think it's far more fitting if the factions explore their identity as political entities who believe in different things.
    it's not that i don't realise. I do.

    If blizzard want to embrace their "new direction" as you put it, that started in TBC because 1 alliance race went horde, then they should do that. Weigh the pros and cons

    The pros is that it's easy to just keep on with that, the cons are that they will lose that original heart and distinctiveness Warcraft is based on. The choice is theirs.

    if they wan to go back to that original heart, that dichotomy and distinctiveness of factions, then this is the way to do it, and I have listed a lot benefits this could yield , it will make things better and improve me the core - it's not a 100% guarantee success, but fi they put the effort in, it will yield results and breathe new life

    Alternative just continue as is, homogenise everything, merge lots of things, let hose more and more distinctiveness but open factions and borders, as it is the factions barely mean anything cos they are so similar, why? cos half the alliance is on the horde through the blood elves and Nightborne a lot of people are okay with this, and like things as they are.. but as a developer you should not be okay with things being okay. your job is to make things the best to make them exciting, dynamic, meaningful you should be concerned about fixing your core, or your identity even if no one else is or none of your fans realise this or even care much.

    They will play whatever you feed them, but I guarantee you, they'd be less and less drawn to you as it dulls. You can't discern this through metrics and statistics, but you can use metrics and statistics to provide evidence some degree of evidence.


    If they want to restore that original heart of Warcraft, revive the theme and feel, make the alliance popular again to match with the horde, then they need to bring hte high elves back in properly and allow the kaldorei to rise again, as the first order of business, then also make changes and improvements that support the core theme, rather take away from it. i.e. no more alliance on horde.

  20. #22980
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    it's not that i don't realise. I do.

    If blizzard want to embrace their "new direction" as you put it, that started in TBC because 1 alliance race went horde, then they should do that. Weigh the pros and cons

    The pros is that it's easy to just keep on with that, the cons are that they will lose that original heart and distinctiveness Warcraft is based on. The choice is theirs.

    if they wan to go back to that original heart, that dichotomy and distinctiveness of factions, then this is the way to do it, and I have listed a lot benefits this could yield , it will make things better and improve me the core - it's not a 100% guarantee success, but fi they put the effort in, it will yield results and breathe new life

    Alternative just continue as is, homogenise everything, merge lots of things, let hose more and more distinctiveness but open factions and borders, as it is the factions barely mean anything cos they are so similar, why? cos half the alliance is on the horde through the blood elves and Nightborne a lot of people are okay with this, and like things as they are.. but as a developer you should not be okay with things being okay. your job is to make things the best to make them exciting, dynamic, meaningful you should be concerned about fixing your core, or your identity even if no one else is or none of your fans realise this or even care much.

    They will play whatever you feed them, but I guarantee you, they'd be less and less drawn to you as it dulls. You can't discern this through metrics and statistics, but you can use metrics and statistics to provide evidence some degree of evidence.
    And therein lies the flaw presented on your dichotomy, as if there could ONLY be a strong identity if there is a restriction of themes. It's for sure the easiest option, but that's by no means a good thing here; you are asking the setting to dumb itself down to have a stronger sense of identity. It's bonkers.


    If they want to restore that original heart of Warcraft, revive the theme and feel, make the alliance popular again to match with the horde, then they need to bring hte high elves back in properly and allow the kaldorei to rise again, as the first order of business, then also make changes and improvements that support the core theme, rather take away from it. i.e. no more alliance on horde.
    It's just so patently obvious that your goals are to have the "highborne" aesthetic and themes on the alliance it isn't even funny. If it was only about creating artificial distinction, then why not focus the alliance elves on their nature worshiping roots, and leave all the imperial classical fantasy to the blood elves and nightborne? because the most transparent thing here is that the classical imperial themes you oh so desire have never been part of the alliance identity.

    When the High Elves were part of the alliance, it was with druidic/ranger themes, which then the NE continued. There's nothing about the elven empire themes that have ever been alliance, not even close.

    If we were going to take your argument about exclusivity and identity seriously, then the answer is not removing BE's from the horde, but to clearly separate the NE and BE aesthetics; As it as always been, alliance elves would focus on nature themes, and blood elves + nightborne on the high fantasy magical imperial themes.

    So no highborne on the alliance, NE and HE become entirely druidic, and BE and NB entirely arcane focused.

    Makes far more sense than completely removing the BE's identity, no? But you wouldn't accept that, because we all know your argument lacks any actual integrity and does not exist at all for the sake of the game.

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