Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Tanaria]

SNIP

and in the meantime, all night elves on Kalimdor are killed off.

Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei are immediately compensated with Felo'Thalas and Eldre'Thalas. You don't get Kalimdor anymore and Thalyssra and Lor'themar have both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity. The Sin'dorei Magisters teleport the Sunwell Plateau to Ashenvale (this is when the zone is no longer "Night elf" as every nelf has been killed and the Sunwell is teleported to the North) and the Sin'dorei rename the land to Felo'Thalas, in honor of Dath'Remar's legendary sword, Felo'melorn.

I'm sorry, but every night elf on Kalimdor has to die.

Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei must be compensated immediately and that is, they take all night elf lands on Western Kalimdor and those idiot nelfs are killed. They aren't spared, they need to die.

[ravenmoon]

What is sad and annoying is that I am pretty much suggesting the EXACT formula blizzard used to make the horde popular, but in a less drastic way - it worked before, and i have every reason to believe it will work again.

But funny enough the horde elf fans who benefitted from that directional change by blizzard (seeing it is what allowed blood elves to go horde and Nightborne also) are the ones most heavily opposed to it. and not because of the method or rational, but because they don't want the alliance to get "their" (not really theirs) stuff and like the superior way it makes them feels (my opinion ofc) - hate the alliance, but don't want to let go of the alliance on their faction - oh the irony) claim to love the horde, but have no interest in the advancement of orcs, troll, tauren, goblins or forsaken - closet alliance fans perhaps?

It seems to me that the tried and proven method that they already know works would work again, especially when your metrics shows you how popular high elves and decent night elves are to the alliance players.

Who was terribly excited by the kaldorei civilization showing up in legion? Night elf fans.. sure the belf fan loved it, but they were just ogling over how pretty the city looked, if you read the fan commentaries back then the night elf crowd were the ones excited by everything, the setting, the lore etc, who was excited when the night elves were finally shown to be a bit badass and dangerous in 8.1 ? - it was the alliance, it was lapped up. Who got super excited about void elves and super excited about the high elf skin tones? Who keeps constantly asking for high elves and doesn't seem to buy the excuses why they can't be playable and for good reason I might add? it's alliance fans !!

You see more topics from alliance fans about High elves than you do draenei, dwarves, worgen and Gnomes COMBINED. You see more alliance topics about Night elves and Nightborne (from alliance players than you do horde) and these area also more than the topics on humans, as well as more than the topics on draenei, dwarves, worgen and gnomes COMBINED.

if anything this tells you what players get most excited about and works the m up in a positive way when it comes to the alliance, it's a clear indication of where the focus should be put if you want to draw people to the alliance and make it popular, let the alliance shine for what the alliance has always been loved for. don't put the best things about the alliance on the horde, do the opposite pull them back from the horde, the blood elves and Nightborne can go a non-alliance themed direction. It's not that hard, it's not damaging either - it may upset a few fans, but it will heal the horde's identity crises and thematic convolution. It's okay for the horde to be multi-versed, but it's problematic if on of those verses is very strongly alliance, because it then devalues the actual alliance.. the alliance needs to be distinct from the horde and unique, which means if the horde has alliance characteristics, they at best should be very small, , certainly not as large as the blood elves and Nightborne are visibility- they're too high elven and too night elven civilization/empire themed. change it. and you'll fix the alliance, fix the game's balance, and make a lot of happy fans on both factions, especially on the alliance and to be fair the alliance could use a lot of celebrating right now - even if some of the horde elf crowd will be upset, it won't last, as I am convinced this move could lead to far greater things for the blood elves down the line, and the non-elf horde crowd will be very happy to have orcs and trolls, goblins and tauren, even forsaken at the centre of their faction, with little to no alliance themes in their blood elves and Nightborne.

[Tanaria]

[B]SNIP

So, all idiot nelfs are killed on Kalimdor and all Western Kalimdor belongs to Lor'themar and Thalyssra, who are still Horde.

[ravenmoon]

and in the meantime, all night elves on Kalimdor are killed off.

Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei are immediately compensated with Felo'Thalas and Eldre'Thalas. You don't get Kalimdor anymore and Thalyssra and Lor'themar have both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity. The Sin'dorei Magisters teleport the Sunwell Plateau to Ashenvale (this is when the zone is no longer "Night elf" as every nelf has been killed and the Sunwell is teleported to the North) and the Sin'dorei rename the land to Felo'Thalas, in honor of Dath'Remar's legendary sword, Felo'melorn.

I'm sorry, but every night elf on Kalimdor has to die.

Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei must be compensated immediately and that is, they take all night elf lands on Western Kalimdor and those idiot nelfs are killed. They aren't spared, they need to die.

Do you even read what I write? So I suggest a way they could implement this alliance resurgence is if the blood elves in Quel'thalas all return to being high elves and re-join the alliance , while the Nightborne get restored to their original kaldorei forms via the Arcan'dor, and choose also to align themselves with the many alliance races they have more in common with including their own kin (we have seen druids and priests interested in the Nightborne during the Suramar campaign, and we know that Darnassian Highborne would certainly be interested in them, the Farondis Highborne would welcome their healing. The Dalaran wizards who are mostly human, high elven and gnome, , not to mention the curiosity with the Lightforged and the fact that the horde behaves in ways that are very different from the mindset that Tahlyssra and the Nightborne who won the city display...

And your answer to this is that in retaliation, all the night elves in Kalimdor die, night elves who are nearly extinct in Kalimdor already, should then suffer another slaughter and massacre, and you think that the very high elven mindset blood elves in Quel'thalas, and the Queen of nobility and righteousness Thalyssra will be cool about that and should remain in the horde in that mindset?


Really, so my way no one dies, which I guess is the alliance preferred way, your way we get another mass extinction of the remnant of a near extinct people, and you feel this is somehow justified and shared, because you feel that in order for the horde to lose the high elven aspect of the blood elves (which is not losing the blood elves, it's just losing all things that are high elven in them), this warrants another elven genocide).. like people aren't a bit tired of all the racial killing that makes so little sense because half the horde is so alliance already, you feel the answer is to make this worse.. whereas I feel there ar other ways to go about it, to regenerate races... the loss of the high elven part of the blood elves and most of the Nightborne turning to night elves, doesn't mean the horde has to lose out but can actually open the door for more trolls like the Drakkari, the amani and the Farakki to join the club, more orc activity in new orc city for the Mag'har, a really good one too, more goblin stuff etc, and you can build up conflict properly over time especially now when the alliance and horde are established once again as being thematically very different, which would make future fighting make more sense.

further to more this way, at least the elven populations would have had time to be re-established and grown, and there would actually be things to destroy as all races would have grown a bit, rather than thrust another war straight off the bat just because you seem to be throwing a a tantrum in retaliation of a suggestion that high elves return and night elves rise up, regaining their assets and the majority of their population sitting on the horde, behaving like alliance races, but with a horde tag on their horde.

You also have 2 other pieces of mine to respond to, I suggest you actually take the time to read them, and have an open mind, rather than be hostile just because you don't like the thought of what I'm suggesting.

- - - Updated - - -

So, all idiot nelfs are killed on Kalimdor and all Western Kalimdor belongs to Lor'themar and Thalyssra, who are still Horde.

READ what I write Tanaria.. actually read it.

[Tanaria]

Do you even read what I write? So I suggest a way they could implement this alliance resurgence is if the blood elves in Quel'thalas all return to being high elves and re-join the alliance , while the Nightborne get restored to their original kaldorei forms via the Arcan'dor, and choose also to align themselves with the many alliance races they have more in common with including their own kin (we have seen druids and priests interested in the Nightborne during the Suramar campaign, and we know that Darnassian Highborne would certainly be interested in them, the Farondis Highborne would welcome their healing. The Dalaran wizards who are mostly human, high elven and gnome, , not to mention the curiosity with the Lightforged and the fact that the horde behaves in ways that are very different from the mindset that Tahlyssra and the Nightborne who won the city display...

And your answer to this is that in retaliation, all the night elves in Kalimdor die, night elves who are nearly extinct in Kalimdor already, should then suffer another slaughter and massacre, and you think that the very high elven mindset blood elves in Quel'thalas, and the Queen of nobility and righteousness Thalyssra will be cool about that and should remain in the horde in that mindset?


Really, so my way no one dies, which I guess is the alliance preferred way, your way we get another mass extinction of the remnant of a near extinct people, and you feel this is somehow justified and shared, because you feel that in order for the horde to lose the high elven aspect of the blood elves (which is not losing the blood elves, it's just losing all things that are high elven in them), this warrants another elven genocide).. like people aren't a bit tired of all the racial killing that makes so little sense because half the horde is so alliance already, you feel the answer is to make this worse.. whereas I feel there ar other ways to go about it, to regenerate races... the loss of the high elven part of the blood elves and most of the Nightborne turning to night elves, doesn't mean the horde has to lose out but can actually open the door for more trolls like the Drakkari, the amani and the Farakki to join the club, more orc activity in new orc city for the Mag'har, a really good one too, more goblin stuff etc, and you can build up conflict properly over time especially now when the alliance and horde are established once again as being thematically very different, which would make future fighting make more sense.

further to more this way, at least the elven populations would have had time to be re-established and grown, and there would actually be things to destroy as all races would have grown a bit, rather than thrust another war straight off the bat just because you seem to be throwing a a tantrum in retaliation of a suggestion that high elves return and night elves rise up, regaining their assets and the majority of their population sitting on the horde, behaving like alliance races, but with a horde tag on their horde.

You also have 2 other pieces of mine to respond to, I suggest you actually take the time to read them, and have an open mind, rather than be hostile just because you don't like the thought of what I'm suggesting.

- - - Updated - - -



READ what I write Tanaria.. actually read it.

Yes.

Night Elf fans want Horde elf fans to suffer, so nelfs have to suffer as well.

Night Elves must be slaughtered on Kalimdor, to make up for the loss of the Horde lands of Suramar and Quel'Thalas.

Lor'themar and Thalyssra, along with all of the other Lore character remain Horde, because Horde Elf fans must have their lore characters. They take all night elf lands. It's quite plain and simple really. Horde must be compensated for the loss of two of their lands (maybe 3 if you want to take Highmountain) and Night Elves must suffer heavily for it. You want us to suffer and to hurt, then you must hurt on the same scale as what the blood elf, nightborne and tauren fanbases suffer.

Your race has to die, Ravenmoon - or near as damn it, but you've got Suramar, you'll get over it. Yes, it stings and it hurts, but this is the only way to make the Horde and Alliance truly fair. Horde will have Felo'Thalas and Eldre'Thalas and everything between and beyond them on Western Kalimdor.

The Horde isn't interested in what Alliance fans say in terms of getting stuff we've already seen, like Orcs and Trolls in recent expansions. We can already create various troll tribes, we don't need more. What we need is the right to preserve what we've got. What the Alliance problems are, are Alliance problems. Plus, Horde getting little crappy areas that are hostile to the Horde and always have been...your not giving the Horde anything. No, we keep all of our Elves and their cities.
You can add to the expansion of Allerian Stronghold, Telgrous Rift and Mt Hyjal if you'd like. That's what most sensible people are doing.

[Valandale]

Not really the thread for it, but an interesting take after Teldrassil and the lukewarm "peace" deal after the war, is if some Night Elves didn't want to just let it go, what with Tyrande chasing sylvanas and not bothering to help lead her people, and a lot of the other leadership chasing after her, Azshara could make use of the vacuum to try and go for a "Unity" faction of elfkind, "Elves once ruled the world, I can make sure no one ever harms our kind ever again." Malfurion is who knows where and I think all the NEs have to keep order is what, Jarod (tbf, he could pull some clout but he's never liked being a leader), and Maiev Shadowsong, and Maiev is probably a tad distrusted still. Azshara could try and make overtures to the other elven cultures too, trying to play up on recent events and the fact she now serves no master, no Sargeras and no N'zoth so she's "totes" trustworthy now. I dunno, it'd be something for Azshara to do since I don't understand why she was left alive other than they want to use her later. It would certainly take the focus off humans and orcs if she posed an actual threat for once and wasn't shunted into a lazy cutaway to another Old God. Her whole appearance in BfA felt like a prolonged "You activated my trap card" meme. Still, a resurgent Azsharan Empire that's not just naga might be interesting.

- - - Updated - - -

In regards to Mt. Hyjal, I think that's where the NEs are rebuilding already right? I thought it was mentioned in the books. It makes sense, it was pretty much their capital in WC3. Aside from that they have Feralas with Feathermoon and the Shen'dralar magi that joined up in Cata. Two areas the NEs could rebuild in Kalimdor. Ashenvale will probably still stay contested and Darkshore needs heavy cleanup after the goblins, undead and cataclysm hit it. Felwood could do with a western plaguelands attempted healing. But Hyjal is much much more defensible than an island.

[Tanaria]

In regards to Mt. Hyjal, I think that's where the NEs are rebuilding already right? I thought it was mentioned in the books. It makes sense, it was pretty much their capital in WC3. Aside from that they have Feralas with Feathermoon and the Shen'dralar magi that joined up in Cata. Two areas the NEs could rebuild in Kalimdor. Ashenvale will probably still stay contested and Darkshore needs heavy cleanup after the goblins, undead and cataclysm hit it. Felwood could do with a western plaguelands attempted healing. But Hyjal is much much more defensible than an island.

They are and it's absolutely perfect for them.
If there's one thing Blizzard should take from Roux (and only one thing, in my view) is that they should put the Night Elves on Hyjal and near Nordrassil. It's a perfect home for them and was their home for 10,000 years. That way, the alliance elves have the Well of Eternity and the horde elves have the Sunwell. That's is extremely fair.

I know the Night Elf Mages might not like it, but the majority of the night elf population are either Sentinels, Druids, Priestesses and Wardens.
Very few are mages which is fine - it would be nice to see a sprawling city in and around Nordrassil, dedicated to the core leading areas of night elf society.

Nelf Mages are more of just a side faction. Yes, they've got a leader, but he's not really an integral part of the story. Blizz just use him when they absolutely have to.

With Chromie-time, you can keep the Cataclysm quest area, but in the modern time you can literally have the very top of Hyjal and the boughs of Nordrassil as the Night Elf capital. Remove the Twilight's Hammer mobs and the night elf and tauren quest npcs and then you can add in buildings for an auction house, bank, vendors, trainers etc.
If you ask me, this would make for a very real and very modern, Kaldorei City.

[Merin]

While I was surprised there was anyone who gave a shit about this to begin with, it beggars belief that anyone is still writing about it now. As someone who is fully cosmetic addled, I mean I get it but... I really don't.

[Valandale]

Because this isn't just based on cosmetics, it's also based in story presentation.

[ravenmoon]

Not really the thread for it, but an interesting take after Teldrassil and the lukewarm "peace" deal after the war, is if some Night Elves didn't want to just let it go, what with Tyrande chasing sylvanas and not bothering to help lead her people, and a lot of the other leadership chasing after her, Azshara could make use of the vacuum to try and go for a "Unity" faction of elfkind, "Elves once ruled the world, I can make sure no one ever harms our kind ever again." Malfurion is who knows where and I think all the NEs have to keep order is what, Jarod (tbf, he could pull some clout but he's never liked being a leader), and Maiev Shadowsong, and Maiev is probably a tad distrusted still. Azshara could try and make overtures to the other elven cultures too, trying to play up on recent events and the fact she now serves no master, no Sargeras and no N'zoth so she's "totes" trustworthy now. I dunno, it'd be something for Azshara to do since I don't understand why she was left alive other than they want to use her later. It would certainly take the focus off humans and orcs if she posed an actual threat for once and wasn't shunted into a lazy cutaway to another Old God. Her whole appearance in BfA felt like a prolonged "You activated my trap card" meme. Still, a resurgent Azsharan Empire that's not just naga might be interesting.

- - - Updated - - -

In regards to Mt. Hyjal, I think that's where the NEs are rebuilding already right? I thought it was mentioned in the books. It makes sense, it was pretty much their capital in WC3. Aside from that they have Feralas with Feathermoon and the Shen'dralar magi that joined up in Cata. Two areas the NEs could rebuild in Kalimdor. Ashenvale will probably still stay contested and Darkshore needs heavy cleanup after the goblins, undead and cataclysm hit it. Felwood could do with a western plaguelands attempted healing. But Hyjal is much much more defensible than an island.

Ultimately blizzard must decide how they want to develop the kaldorei. I feel, that they should make them epic again. In their original lore, they were an epic race, having reached the heights of civilization and retaining great arcane knowledge in some groups like the Highborne and Moonguard who we have met in Feralas, Azsuna and Suramar and also had long vigil era culture which had an epicness and ferocity to it. They finally have the demon hunters, Illidari, always been a tiny group but a powerful one that has always featured in their race lore stories through Illidan.

They are basically to elves, what Zandalari are for trolls, except that blizz has really nerfed them and made them 3rd rate race in the back drop of everyone, the night elves are a ragged group, o the brink of extinction, without a home, and the only powerful thing they have going for them is the night warrior ritual enhancement.. yet, they still have a Well of eternity, and the ability to make a new one (just grab some more vials) - this can increase their arcane power and effectiveness, they have Shaladrassil they can utilise.. Nordrassil might be entirely dedicated to Cenarion affairs, but there is Shaladrassil they can use to bring some nature enhancements -- leaving:

1. Night warrior empowerment and the Font of Elune from the priesthood
2. Well of Eternity/magical well from the mages
3. Shaladrassil World tree from the druids for the nature magical enhancements.

A night elf nation that reflects the full total of what the night elves in lore are. children of the stars, an arcane origin and nature/arcane duality, an edgy hardcore fel component via the demon hunters. they may be much smaller now, but they can still have a stunning visual representation and presence that encapsulates all their facets, from the great beautiful pre-sundering cities like Suramar and Nar'thalas to the great paradise idyllic like forests shown in Val'sharah, the military strongholds of Moonguard stronghold, Black rook hold and Warden vault that represent the martial magical and physical forces - with the dual contrasting lifestyles of the kaldorei civilization folk like Highborne in Azsuna and city folk in Suramar to the rural druidic communities that prefer the forest life of the long vigil.. The priesthood in their cathedral and temples administering both societies and the Illidari capitalising on the fel scorched areas left behind by the legion.

On their home turf they operate united to defend it, making it almost impossible to take their home from them ever again.. however outside it, all the different groups have different objectives.

• The Order of Elune works to claim back the areas lost to the horde in WoT on Kalimdor
• The druids continue on their world healing and restoring mission, less concerned with what banner flies over what area
• The Highborne order - are more interested in magical knowledge and leading civilizations into greater enlightenment tempered by the wisdom they have gained from their errors.
• The Illidari continue to seek out and eliminate all demonic and foul magical threats to the planet.

New stories and quests can show how the night elves come together and work together to secure their new home and how the different orders and sections operate both how and when they work together, and how they are independent and separate entities with very specific and very different goals and objectives.

They have great leaders to draw on;

• Tyrande for the Priesthood
• Malfruion for the druids
• Prince Farondis for the Highborne
• Jarod for the military
• Shandris for the Sentinels
• Maiev for the Wardens
• Altruis or Vanon for the Illidari
• [Thalyssra for the Nightborne Kaldorei - if they bring Suramar back to the Night elves like I have been suggesting),

[in this scenario, most of the Nightborne got healed by the Arcan'dor not just from arcane addiction but from all the alterations of the Nightwell - and they shortly by default became an alliance night elven based city, throwing the capital open for the now homeless Darnassiasns, most of whom came form Suramar originally anyway - some Nightborne chose to magically halt the Arcan'dor restoration and opposed the opening up to the alliance, they found away to restore Elisande through her echoes, and fled with the blood elves to Kalimdor]

In general, Mount Hyjal, Moonglade, Felwood, and Stonetalon north and west flowing into Desolace, are all Cenarion circle, they don't care about banners and terrirtories, and have enough support to miantain their autonomy, including several remaining dragons and wild gods.

this leaves Darkshore or Broken isles for the new night elf base. I recommend borken isles as that is built as a compact night elf set of zones, that are close to the eastern kingdoms and the rest of the alliance, while Darkshore and Feralas serves as a foothold for a war campaign where night elves , fight to reclaim their lost portions of Kalimdor that is horde dominated -

[Tanaria]

SNIP

But let's be honest here, the likelihood of Blizzard having the time to just one race. when the reality is that they will showcase an Alliance only questline of the Night Elves claiming and rebuilding Hyjal and it's towns near Nordrassil and then possibly in Darkshore.

Horde side, it will probably be Lordaeron returning to the Horde and to the Forsaken, with the hopeful lead of Velonara. Blizzard have already confirmed that Calia Menethil will NOT be the leader of the Forsaken, nor is she being set up to be the leader in the future.

I don't think blizzard are all that interested in "night elfing" up every single zone that used to be there's 10,000 years ago. I think they will follow what they did in BFA and those places seem to strongly point towards Hyjal as per the game and the book, as well as Darkshore as per 8.1.

Forsaken need to go back to Lordaeron. That is their home...it was their home in life and in undeath and they deserve to have it back.

Thalyssra is Horde and Elisande is dead - neither are changing and it completely ruins and undermines Horde lore.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Look @MyWholeLifeIsThuner, my vision for wow, isn't really mine, it's just the original - which I now happen to find more rare and unique today, than the trends of the day.

And again with the traditionalism; so because it's the original version its better then? where was that traditionalism when Warcraft added new races to the Horde and the Alliance and wasn't just orcs and humans? Where was the traditionalism when the Orcs were made more than just the bad guys?

The problem is your "traditionalism" is entirely selective of a period in time that was wholly subjectively more appealing to you. You think that by claiming that it's the OG vision of WoW somehow you make a point, as if any progression and the game and the lore are a downgrade, and again, all based on your subjectivity.

More so, it's a traditionalism that isn't based in reality. In the original WoW, NE's elven aspect edged completely to the nature and druidic aspects, so when BE's were introduced as masters of the arcane in BC, there was barely any overlap.

Cause again, you are saying that the game was better without any expansions basically, because BC already shifted the faction paradigm, and everything has continually evolved.

Your traditionalism is simply subjective to the period *you* personally prefer, and the fact that you want to erase the last 14 years out of 16 and make them fit *your* subjective preference, make really apparent you ahve not moved forward with the game.

Most players currently playing know the Horde including the Blood Elves, and you really think that presenting an idea that takes away the elven identity out of the Horde is fair? Please, again, try to put yourself in someone else's shoes, because it's clear you haven't.

You have no care for alienating the Horde playerbase thinking you know best what the game needs, how is that not the height of arrogance and solipsism?

But ofc this isn't the only motivation, the alliance will be very excited if the whole high elf fantasy returns to it, and the night elf fantasy, it's fully scope is fully realised on it

And just another generalization based on what YOU want. I play both factions, but hardly hide the fact I prefer the alliance in terms of experience, and an certainly pro high elf, and let me tell you that you completely overstate how the alliance as a whole ache for elves. Your opinion does not represent the majority of the alliance, and I can't believe I have to point that out.

once you realise that the horde keeping Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar and the blood elves behaving like high elves and Nightborne like kaldorei Highborne/civilization types is actually not that important for the horde and rather detrimental to the faction theme, you will unanimously reach the conclusion I have.

"If you thought like me you wouldn't disagree"

Honestly I disagree with you on the dumbing down of the faction choice alone, but the moon logic of taking away something that has been horde identity for over a decade and a half and saying "it's not that important" is downright hilarious.

All you want is a simplistic and reductive faction dichotomy that was getting boring when LoTR came out and you refuse to accept that Warcraft's setting has evolved through the years, and decline to board the actual and real problem of faction balance within the current climate and instead push the idea the factions should be dumbed down to easily identifiable aesthetics, political complexity and nuance be damned.

But you will not heard any of this.

You really don't care about literally taking away an identity that has been Horde for over a decade and a half, which is now far longer than elves were on the alliance before, despite that high elves on the alliance as part of their identity existed only in warcraft II, with night elves taking that place on WoW.

For some reason, you think that alliance having High Elves for one RTS means all elven themes belong to them, despite the horde having blood elves for 14 years in WoW. You claim for it to be based on the original vision of WoW, when that's simply not true, because night elves had a completely different fantasy to BE's.

It's just such a deeply flawed reasoning in every aspect, and its implementation wouild entirely alienate the most popular race on the Horde.

And you think it's fair and rational.

[ravenmoon]

But let's be honest here, the likelihood of Blizzard having the time to just one race. when the reality is that they will showcase an Alliance only questline of the Night Elves claiming and rebuilding Hyjal and it's towns near Nordrassil and then possibly in Darkshore.

Horde side, it will probably be Lordaeron returning to the Horde and to the Forsaken, with the hopeful lead of Velonara. Blizzard have already confirmed that Calia Menethil will NOT be the leader of the Forsaken, nor is she being set up to be the leader in the future.

I don't think blizzard are all that interested in "night elfing" up every single zone that used to be there's 10,000 years ago. I think they will follow what they did in BFA and those places seem to strongly point towards Hyjal as per the game and the book, as well as Darkshore as per 8.1.

Forsaken need to go back to Lordaeron. That is their home...it was their home in life and in undeath and they deserve to have it back.

Not sure what is most likely for blizzard, I wouldn't presume to know that much. I do know when they are keen about doing something they will go all out.

So if it is reviving the alliance, they'd go all big on the high elves and the night elves. I expect Quel'thalas to be rebuilt and that take a lot of work, and instead of rebuilding Hyjal into a place with lots of homes etc, I see them using the broken isles, instead with Suramar the famous great capital already built, and very historical, and towns like Tel'anor, Meredril in Suramar and Nar'thalas city in Azsuna, just touched up as urban habitations, with lots of country in Azsuna and forestry in Val'Sharah for them.

Most of this work is already done, so it is just a matter of assigning it to the night elves in story development and a few touching up, the major work will be Quel'thalas for the high elves... this would probably be part of a big story line and raid, that shows and gives the final straw of how the blood elves in Quel'thalas choose to become high elves and why /how a small portion of them get ejected out, the portion that remain as blood elves and how that opens the door for a the fel elves, San'layn, Wretched (who get magically enhanced), exploitation of blood crystal magic and Netherstorm etc and whatever direction will take.

[Tanaria]

Not sure what is most likely for blizzard, I wouldn't presume to know that much. I do know when they are keen about doing something they will go all out.

So if it is reviving the alliance, they'd go all big on the high elves and the night elves. I expect Quel'thalas to be rebuilt and that take a lot of work, and instead of rebuilding Hyjal into a place with lots of homes etc, I see them using the broken isles, instead with Suramar the famous great capital already built, and very historical, and towns like Tel'anor, Meredril in Suramar and Nar'thalas city in Azsuna, just touched up as urban habitations, with lots of country in Azsuna and forestry in Val'Sharah for them.

Most of this work is already done, so it is just a matter of assigning it to the night elves in story development and a few touching up, the major work will be Quel'thalas for the high elves... this would probably be part of a big story line and raid, that shows and gives the final straw of how the blood elves in Quel'thalas choose to become high elves and why /how a small portion of them get ejected out, the portion that remain as blood elves and how that opens the door for a the fel elves, San'layn, Wretched (who get magically enhanced), exploitation of blood crystal magic and Netherstorm etc and whatever direction will take.

Blood Elves and Quel'Thalas are remaining Horde.
Blizzard are not hinting at this sort of premise and Helfs aren't playable.

Wake up and see what they're putting out. Nelfs didn't return to Suramar or Val'Sharah in 8.1. They went to Darkshore. Then Roux had it approved that they were then moving to Hyjal.
Helfs are irrelevant now, due to Void Elves and they have become the staple of Thalassian faces within the Alliance. Void Elves are probably likely to expand Telgrous Rift or, my preference, would be to build up the Allerian Stronghold.

Two amazing options that don't involve the Horde being alienated and supporting what only a small minority of people want. Blood Elf fans
and Horde fans are the most important when it comes to Quel'Thalas.

STOP BEING SELFISH AND WISHING TO HURT BLOOD ELVES AND NIGHTBORNE.

[FossilFree]

What the shit that's genius. Spellbreakers leaning on the Disc angle, that's rad.

Thanks!

We can agree that most love Paladins, so a Spellbreaker could get very popular, very quick. With the addition of High elven hair to Void elves and the Spellbreaker class being made available, a Void elf Spellbreaker would be very popular. I can imagine it functioning as a Tank with anti-caster spells and interrupts such as their own type of Holy Anti-Magic Shell and Void style interrupts and stuns, a utility, CC kind of Tank/DPS. With regards to a Healing spec, Voidy dark matter absorption shields for the entire group and some holy blasts of heals like a Holy priest's Divine Star would make him be inspired from several other specs but be unique at the same time.

Sounds fun! I could see Blood Elves getting Spellbreakers too.

[Eleann]

The Horde isn't interested in what Alliance fans say in terms of getting stuff we've already seen, like Orcs and Trolls in recent expansions. We can already create various troll tribes, we don't need more. What we need is the right to preserve what we've got. What the Alliance problems are, are Alliance problems.

Well said. I think @ravenmoon is a little too demanding with his wishes for the lore development. I think we should adopt a more subtle approach. First of all, as @Tanaria and @MyWholeLifeIsThunder have said, Silvermoon came out along with Exodar in TBC. It is practically a Vanilla expac if you pair the 3 first ones, Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK. It is not a good idea, and I don't think the devs are planning, to remove Silvermoon from Horde, or anything related to that. Same with Nightborne. It was a clear decision to place them in the Horde, and their home is Suramar so naturally Nightborne's starting zone is Suramar, but new players cannot quest in it. Both Allies and Hordies have the opportunity to quest in and experience Suramar when they do the Legion questline for it

So I will pile up a small list of ''Do's'' and Don't's:

Do:
Give Mt Hyjal to Night elves (as will probably happen)
Give Telogrus rift or Allerian Stronghold development with a Void elf capital and starting quest zone
Give High elven features to Void elves, such as hairstyles and light hair colours
Give arcane tattoos and glowing lims to Night elves when Core Races are looked into again
Give Dark Ranger features to Blood elves such as glowing red eyes, pale skin etc
Give Sun'Layn features to Blood elves such as fangs, vampire makeup, in-combat wings
Give better customization to Nightborne such as skins, faces, and hairstyles (probs already underway)

Don't:
Don't take Silvermoon from Blood elves
Don't take Suramar from Nightborne

PS: See how tiny that Don't list is guys? Smile and consider how close we all are to wanting similar things happening. All that needs doing is putting aside some views, as the devs appear to not agree with these views anyways.

[ravenmoon]

Blood Elves and Quel'Thalas are remaining Horde.
Blizzard are not hinting at this sort of premise and Helfs aren't playable.

Wake up and see what they're putting out. Nelfs didn't return to Suramar or Val'Sharah in 8.1. They went to Darkshore. Then Roux had it approved that they were then moving to Hyjal.
Helfs are irrelevant now, due to Void Elves and they have become the staple of Thalassian faces within the Alliance. Void Elves are probably likely to expand Telgrous Rift or, my preference, would be to build up the Allerian Stronghold.

Two amazing options that don't involve the Horde being alienated and supporting what only a small minority of people want. Blood Elf fans
and Horde fans are the most important when it comes to Quel'Thalas.

STOP BEING SELFISH AND WISHING TO HURT BLOOD ELVES AND NIGHTBORNE.

Here we go again.

Blizzard are not hinting at this sort of premise and Helfs aren't playable.

Not everything we get is hinted at.
This is also not about predicting what we will get, it's about analysing and determining what we should get, and it is entirely based on our opinions, for which we all have reasons for having.

Wake up and see what they're putting out. Nelfs didn't return to Suramar or Val'Sharah in 8.1. They went to Darkshore. Then Roux had it approved that they were then moving to Hyjal.

I'm not blind to what they're putting out, I have an opinion on it, and i have an opinion on what should come next.

Helfs are irrelevant now, due to Void Elves and they have become the staple of Thalassian faces within the Alliance.

This is what I call suggestive and manipulative... you are jumping to a conclusion and making a statement you have no idea of knowing. It also means nothing, for even if it were true today, it could change tomorrow. In your opinion high elves are irrelevant, but then weren't blood elf fans saying that from day one, to try to convince high elf and alliance fans to stop hoping for and stop desiring what they wanted. You are not doing this out of the kindness of your heart, worried about their hopes, you're doing this to discourage them from hoping and posting about it because you are afraid that if the devs realise how massive the support for this is, they would make it so, and you've seen it, they've being going in that direction - first by giving void elves in the first place, it wasn't high elves, but it was a start, then next they gave he skin tones, then what comes next? What about that trend? - that doesn't scream high elves are irrelevant to me. And they certainly aren't irrelevant to the people on this topic.

Besides, my point was not about their relevance but their necessity, and you have yet to disprove that.

Void Elves are probably likely to expand Telgrous Rift or, my preference, would be to build up the Allerian Stronghold.

We have no idea what they'll do with Telogrus rift, we can speculate and write about what we would like to see, this is totally legitimate, just because someone likes what you will hate or has a good reason for desiring a move that you don't like doesn't make it any less valid to discuss or present and they should not be hounded for having a differing opinion. this is not a negotiation, we don't have to reach mutual consensus, therefore we don't have to manipulate or bully and we don't have to get angry or resentful either, we can appreciate when others have differing views and not agree with them while presenting our own..

Two amazing options that don't involve the Horde being alienated and supporting what only a small minority of people want. Blood Elf fans
and Horde fans are the most important when it comes to Quel'Thalas.

the horde being alienated? My recent conversations have been about the horde going the exact opposite of being alienated, but returning to roots, and showing that losing the high elf themes in the blood elves and Night elf civilization themes in their playable Nightborne will actually help this and would improve the horde.

The fact that you view blood elves moving away from that very alliance high elf portrayal and assets as "alienating the horde" really shows how alliance minded you are - if you weren't you would be celebrating less human-like elves and less alliance like characters and alliance lore civilizations on the horde, you'd support more troll, orc, goblin, tauren , panda and even forsaken stuff to replace it and you would support a less alliance based/centred development for the future of the horde blood elves.

but are you doing that? nope, do you know why you aren't doing that? Because it's not the horde you like, but the alliance themed elves - closet alliance.

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Well said. I think @ravenmoon is a little too demanding with his wishes for the lore development. I think we should adopt a more subtle approach. First of all, as @Tanaria and @MyWholeLifeIsThunder have said, Silvermoon came out along with Exodar in TBC. It is practically a Vanilla expac if you pair the 3 first ones, Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK. It is not a good idea, and I don't think the devs are planning, to remove Silvermoon from Horde, or anything related to that. Same with Nightborne. It was a clear decision to place them in the Horde, and their home is Suramar so naturally Nightborne's starting zone is Suramar, but new players cannot quest in it. Both Allies and Hordies have the opportunity to quest in and experience Suramar when they do the Legion questline for it

So I will pile up a small list of ''Do's'' and Don't's:

Do:
Give Mt Hyjal to Night elves (as will probably happen)
Give Telogrus rift or Allerian Stronghold development with a Void elf capital and starting quest zone
Give High elven features to Void elves, such as hairstyles and light hair colours
Give arcane tattoos and glowing lims to Night elves when Core Races are looked into again
Give Dark Ranger features to Blood elves such as glowing red eyes, pale skin etc
Give Sun'Layn features to Blood elves such as fangs, vampire makeup, in-combat wings
Give better customization to Nightborne such as skins, faces, and hairstyles (probs already underway)

Don't:
Don't take Silvermoon from Blood elves
Don't take Suramar from Nightborne

If you're purpose is to appease Tanaria, and possibly a small but vocal forum section of blood elf horde fans and don't mind the horde continuing to have very visible alliance elements then sure.

But if you want to both boost the alliance and effectively distinguish the factions, then scrap it be bold.. aim for something that makes the alliance, the high elves and the night elves come off and be amazingly like blizzard never has shown them in wow, but that we have known they could be on their lore. No more keeping the best portions of an alliance themed race for the horde, but having the best parts of alliance things on the alliance with the alliance races they belong to, and the horde having the best things for it's core races.

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I'm not trying to be too demanding.. but i understand why it might appear so to some people, it is quite a shift for a race to lose a home city, it's only happened w once in wow, last patch - but it is actually a small change that can solve pressing and big problems with the game.

Blizzard should prioritise doing what needs to be done to fix the game, if they realise this is what needs to be done, they need to do it - whatever they do will always upset some people, they can't please everyone. They can rip the alliance band aid off the horde, and then throw in some treats to appease, but they need to do what needs to be done, the alliance needs to be relevant and look good again and the factions need to be different from each other. Which means no major sharing of themes. If the horde is to have alliance themes, it should be barely noticeable, or in a very small group of people not in a major race plastering alliance civilizations and themes ... it may have been necessary in the TBc and wrath era to build up the horde, but it should be rectified now, it isn't. So the game's core themes are preserved and can be used to facilitate engaging content in the way Warcraft does things.

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And again with the traditionalism; so because it's the original version its better then?

So? It's my opinion, if I think the traditional way is better for wow, that's my opinion.

I can only share why I think so. I think it is the charm of Warcraft - the current approach is the popular approach, everyone is doing it, let's mix everything together, but in this particular case the problem is not that things are getting mixed, its that it's the alliance that is mixed in the horde via the blood elves and Nightborne, making the horde feel like a second alliance home, where you can get both alliance and horde worlds - which isn't good. What's the point of the alliance then? and especially when you make the horde's alliance elements 9i.e the blood elves and Nightborne) much more attractive than any alliance race and their alliance race equivalents on the alliance?

none of this is good, whether you're a traditionalist or not. it's not just a matter of having the horde fill traditional roles and the alliance fill traditional roles - charming or not, it's all these other things that this presents in a two faction game.

if you are going to have only two factions, you really shouldn't be having them all the same, while you can, they lose a lot by homogenising, there's only two to choose from, the horde can't have any of it's races so blatantly alliance themed. now if there were 3 or 4 factions, we could tolerate some races in several factions being quite similar, , but not in two.

where was that traditionalism when Warcraft added new races to the Horde and the Alliance and wasn't just orcs and humans? Where was the traditionalism when the Orcs were made more than just the bad guys?

And which is why I quite welcome new races, like I have said many times, you can continue to develop and grow the factions with new things, that's fine, it's good to advance things - I'm not against that but supportive of that, what is disruptive is when what's new in one faction is from the other faction. And the tradition I want to preserve is the horde adn alliance being distinct - with each fashion retaining the core part of their essence to themselves.. with the high elves on the horde as blood elves, that is a core alliance themed race on the horde, that should never be, it would have been better if the long vigil aspect of the night elves which isn't part of the alliance core theme had a representation on the horde, ,but not the pre-sundering side of them, because that is alliance through and through.

Still, because the kaldorei went alliance first, I would not have them on the horde either,. But we've past that point haven't we, blood elves are on the horde and pandaren are shared. So the way we progress is to tweak them. For blood elves and Nightborne we take them in a non-high elven and non-kaldorei empire direction, had have the alliance high elves and night elves take all their stuff back. for the pandaren, we favour one faction heavily over the other, so the horde in this case retains the culture of the pandaren, and the majority of the population - this fits the trend anyway, as Pandaren had a lot more horde interaction, the alliance retain the pandaren model, and a few token things, they get no infrastructure or fancy pandaren stuff, and the difference between Huojin and Tushui is expanded to even include some cosmetic optional variations. This is how we manage the existing situation, game it so we bring out more of the distinction rather than homogenise. The funny thing is tit's the elves that are the biggest anomaly or obstacle to that, the elves on the horde. you could leave the pandaren unchanged, and fix the elves and you would notice the difference in the factions straight away. But that's largely because the pandaren don't have much focus. It would be prudent to deal with them as well.

It instead should be something unique, like he Pandaren are, like the Forsaken were when they put them on the horde, or the night elves (who were seen in their long vigil light) when they put them on the alliance, like the naga are, like the San'layn are, like the Venthyr are etc.

which is why, when the blood elves lose their high elf stuff, they should be developed in a direction that makes them unique, no longer high elven based. Same with the Nightborne, no longer kaldorei civilization based because all of that is alliance stuff, and should go to the alliance. The alliance would be much improved and appealing , drawing players back to it and reviving it if it were to get it's components back. That's not the only thing that would be necessary, but it's the most important thing they'll need to do.

[Eleann]

If you're purpose is to appease Tanaria, and possibly a small but vocal forum section of blood elf horde fans and don't mind the horde continuing to have very visible alliance elements then sure.
But if you want to both boost the alliance and effectively distinguish the factions, then scrap it be bold.. aim for something that makes the alliance, the high elves and the night elves come off and be amazingly like blizzard never has shown them in wow

What I'm trying to do is come up with solutions that will boost the Alliance but also the Horde in a different way. Extremist views will not be taken seriously by the devs. I do not believe that nothing is looked at in forums by the devs. As long as it's out there, it will be seen, and we have much better chance of being heard if we are all united and make viable, appealing suggestions that will have a wide impact across all of WoW, and we build on those suggestions. Such as customizations, cities, classes, races, etc.

About Night elves. Yes, they lost their home, BUT they gained amazing cinematics in return, the Night warrior titles and eyes, I'm fairly sure they will get a new glorious home in the future, and have been given absolutely amazing customization that Nightborne could only dream off. Oh and while at it let's add ''Give the blue coloured Night warrior eyes back to Night elves in our list as well. I do actually believe, contrary to what others think, that Alliance will gain a significant boost if High elves become playable in the Alliance through the Void elves getting high elven customizations. At the moment we do not really have elves that can look like high elves they are more of ''high elven wannabe's'' with them weird hair.

[ravenmoon]

What I'm trying to do is come up with solutions that will boost the Alliance but also the Horde in a different way. Extremist views will not be taken seriously by the devs. I do not believe that nothing is looked at in forums by the devs. As long as it's out there, it will be seen, and we have much better chance of being heard if we are all united and make viable, appealing suggestions that will have a wide impact across all of WoW, and we build on those suggestions. Such as customizations, cities, classes, races, etc.

Once upon a time, high elves going to the horde was considered extremist, Teldrassil being burnt down was considered extremist and would never happen. One happened for gameplay issues, the other happened for narrative reasons that had a bigger plan down the line.

Just because Tanaria and Alanar and MyWholeLifeIs Thunder call it extreme doesn't mean it is. It is drastic for wow though isn't it, because blizzard seldom change what they've already done, but they have been known to, especially if sufficient justification exists. I hear you.

About Night elves. Yes, they lost their home, BUT they gained amazing cinematics in return, the Night warrior titles and eyes, I'm fairly sure they will get a new glorious home in the future, and have been given absolutely amazing customization that Nightborne could only dream off. Oh and while at it let's add ''Give the blue coloured Night warrior eyes back to Night elves in our list as well. I do actually believe, contrary to what others think, that Alliance will gain a significant boost if High elves become playable in the Alliance through the Void elves getting high elven customizations. At the moment we do not really have elves that can look like high elves they are more of ''high elven wannabe's'' with them weird hair.

Hmm, well I'd like you to suggest the blood elves lose their home and get an amazing cinematic instead, and watch Tanaria's claws and fangs come out, but such a fate is okay only for the alliance. Still the drastic blood elf changes have a good cause in mind.

Jokes aside, it would be unusual for blizzard to make a new home for the night elves, they are more in the business of tearing things down, and when they do new things, it's for new versions of existing races, so they also alter the race.. Nightborne are a typical example, altered night elves, coming in with a new aspect of the kaldorei (which isn't exactly a new one, it's just new to world of Warcraft, but it's been in their lore since the start if you read the books), still it's want they do for every sub-race in the game.

Blizzard never tried to make capital cities more relevant in the game, they could have done, they could have given a racial capital an instance every patch or every expansion, and used that as an excuse to rebuilt it and develop it, worked on a system that made it important and worthwhile to your character and faction to be in your racial city, done things like city defence games etc.. the suggestions have come over the years.. instead they decided to go the faction approach, one city for each faction and the rest are just useless.

that's not to say they can't change, they can, I mean that's what we hope right, but it's unlikely.

I am fully aware that the high elves returning, and Suramar going alliance etc and all the things i have suggested though they sound good to me are extremely unlikely, but it won't be hope or wishes or desires if they were already here right? who knows, maybe they come , maybe they don't, i am just sharing my thoughts.

But yes, I really do hope they do get something nice

[Kyriani]

Any suggestion that Horde lose Silvermoon and/or Suramar, or that Blood Elf and Nightborne themes need to be changed is completely unrealistic. It won't happen. And even if it did, it would do nothing to fix the issues that the Alliance has with engagement at endgame. The damage that was done years ago can't be undone by giving the Alliance High Elves/Silvermoon/Suramar. It's a pipe dream.

I'm fairly certain Blizzard is going to leave Silvermoon and the Blood Elves exactly where and how they are. Same for the Nightborne. The Blood Elf and and Nightborne themes are HORDE themes. Why? Because they are members of the Horde. The tradition of the Alliance being the pretty faction and the Horde being the monstrous faction was broken in TBC. The clock is never going to be turned backwards to undo that change. Asking for it to happen is an exercise in futility and even entertaining the possibility is a delusion of the grandest kind.

To quote Garrosh... "Time's change". That includes the factions and the themes that define them. The Horde is no longer an exclusively misfit monster faction. They have had two magically adept civilizations of elves as members for years now. That isn't going to change, nor should it. Not even for the sake Alliance endgame engagement.

For Alliance endgame engagement to improve, players interested in engaging in endgame progression have to want to be Alliance. That's something Blizzard has to figure how to encourage, but giving the Alliance High Elves isn't likely to help in that regard. Why would it? You can be a pretty Thalassian elf on the Horde and have a much bigger pool of endgame minded players to draw from.

We've already seen that a pretty Thalassian elf on the Alliance won't shift the population/engagement level. Void elves have been available to Alliance players for years now and their existence has done nothing to shift the balance. They even got all the Blood Elf skin tones now and will probably get some natural hair color options down the road, and it still won't shift the balance. And while it will never happen, even if Blizzard renamed them High Elves and gave them access to the Paladin class, it still wouldn't shift the balance. Thinking otherwise is nonsensical. The issue of Alliance endgame engagement is not something aesthetics or lore changes can fix.