Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varx]

I'm sure someone will pay you attention.

Why not? It's a legit question. If I remember correctly people were trying to double think their OCD away by claiming that a pale void elf is actually a helf because reasons. All in an attempt to cope with the fact that helves will never be a race now since they have pale skin options. Is that insanity still prevalent or not?

Oh and that NOW belves are helves because it fits their MO. LMAO.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Lots of words with no sense behind them.
Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.

It's entertaining to engage with other opinions, even when they are dumb, but to have to parcel through heaps of filler is a punishment. Brevity is the soul of wit, and if you have to bury your opinions in verbosity and walls of text, I will start to believe you know your arguments are bad and are just trying to obscure them.

- - - Updated - - -

Why not? It's a legit question. If I remember correctly people were trying to double think their OCD away by claiming that a pale void elf is actually a helf because reasons. All in an attempt to cope with the fact that helves will never be a race now since they have pale skin options. Is that insanity still prevalent or not?

Oh and that NOW belves are helves because it fits their MO. LMAO.

I meant someone other than me hon.

[Varx]

Oh yeah? We shall see!

[Tanaria]

It's entertaining to engage with other opinions, even when they are dumb, but to have to parcel through heaps of filler is a punishment. Brevity is the soul of wit, and if you have to bury your opinions in verbosity and walls of text, I will start to believe you know your arguments are bad and are just trying to obscure them.

Like I say, let's have this right.

The only reason why these two are saying this is because they are so desperate to have the Nightborne on the Alliance. They have been for 3 years. They've tried every single avenue and Blizzard haven't done anything they wanted, so now we're on this nonsense.

I say, fight nonsense with nonsense.
Would you like to see Ashenvale renamed to "Felo'Thalas" and the Horde control both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity? I mean, having both is real "strength" goal which is an integral part of the Horde. As Lady Thalyssra states;
"Strength, determination, individuality."

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Like I say, let's have this right.

The only reason why these two are saying this is because they are so desperate to have the Nightborne on the Alliance. They have been for 3 years. They've tried every single avenue and Blizzard haven't done anything they wanted, so now we're on this nonsense.

I say, fight nonsense with nonsense.
Would you like to see Ashenvale renamed to "Felo'Thalas" and the Horde control both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity? I mean, having both is real "strength" goal which is an integral part of the Horde. As Lady Thalyssra states;
"Strength, determination, individuality."

Lol, but yeah, the thread is derailed enough as it is.

Like this is the High Elf thread after all, not the "let's completely redesign the factions" thread.

[ravenmoon]

Because there is reason, they darn well know it. One group will argue against ANY suggestion, proposal, idea or argumenet that supports high elves being playable - no matter how much sense it makes, because they simply don't want that to happen so it doesn't matter what pro high elves say as this thread proves - they will respond to everything and agree to nothing. But their arguments will never stop those who want high elves playable from wanting so and making arguments for it.

The people who want high elves playable on alliance are much much larger than those who don't. And playable high elves will affect the alliance (positively) a whole lot more than it would affect the horde negatively - especially if the developers go out of their way to ensure this is the case.

It's a classic case of you can't have my stuff. It's not about what's good for the game, or what would help, they don't want to acknowledge the other side because they're biased.. not everyone is, but some of these guys here are. They view the blood elves as theirs (ie..e the horde) and you (i.e. alliance) can't have our stuff - i.e. the blood elves.

It's elf players really that are like this, no one makes the fuss over the orcs or goblins or trolls - it's not even about theme or position, because if it was they'd be joining the call for the high elves to return because that race doesn't belong. instead they would rather the horde be changed from its core to accommodate this pretty alliance theme than lose it so it 's original horde theme can be restored. Because they view it as their stuff.

I have a 3rd person view, i look at it far more impartially than most, based on the themes presented, i want the alliance to be as it was and stick to its mould because this was good, and this sharing of themes is not as good as before, and it doesn't fit well. This is my motivation. Or the heart of my motivation.

Theirs is simply just "you want our stuff, you're not getting it" and "we'll make noise, kick and scream (out of spite and jealous rage) so the devs will never give you your stuff (which they call their stuff now), back" so these arguments continue, so much to the denial of the alliance nature of the blood elves.

And these were the same people a few pages back arguing that the blood elves were the high elves, but why were they making that argument then and now saying the blood elves aren't high elves, and aren't alliance/ because they just want to shoot down an argument that gives justifiable reason for the blood elves to lose their high elf component and the alliance gain it.

These people are not about what is good for the game or what will help, it's all about i want so you can't have it. Like a kid who gets given the other kids shiny toy, he only started liking it because of how much the other kid liked it. When the parent took it from its owner and gave it to him to play for a while, , he took it to heart as his and refused to give it back when the other kid said enough iw ant my toy back now. Now the parent (i.e. blizz) has to decide now that the other kid no longer needs the first kid's toy he the parent took from him, whether he should give the toy back to the first kid who was taken a turn for the worse and needs to have his spirits lifted up and cheerful again. This kid valued that toy more than any other.

I conclude, for maximum effect, it won't be enough for high elves to be available on the alliance. Blood elves would have to lose their high elven identity and all things related to the high elves while remaining on the horde, and the High elves major return to the alliance would have to be a significant and attractive. High elf skin tones for void elves won't cut it. The alliance needs its profile and image raised significantly to attract players back and balance the numbers on the faction. The game needs two viable factions to work. And the horde needs to lose the alliance themed components to make the factions distinct and recapture that heart.

And I believe they would if they make those changes I'm suggesting. The horde won't become unpopular or unwanted because the high elf components return tot he alliance and the night elven ones in the Nightborne. It's image wouldn't be hit at all, it's numbers will suffer a little as the high elf and kaldorei civilization crowd on the horde will return, making the horde lose numbers, but the horde would retain it's image, a good chunk of the blood elf populace pick them for the models, not for the story or for having Silvermoon, and that's not changing with this.

What's changing here is the alliance is going to be made to look good and have it's themes fully on its faction rather than spread across two, removing the lure that kept funnelling alliance type players over. The horde would be improved as well for being the horde, the loss of Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar is compensated with acquisition of Zul'drak, Farak, Aman, Grommash city built at Warsong hold and other assets from original horde races. Pandaren leaning heavily to the horde to would help.

The horde's not going to be dampened here, it wit's problem in 2004-2006 was it's image and perception as the rubbish or bad faction, something the blood elves as high elves helped turn around, but the hard faction focus on them fixed, so that now, in 2018's classic, without blood elves, the horde and alliance are equal on that realm - because they are no longer perceived as the bad faction.

The elf boost on the alliance is significant I outline (i.e. the return of the high elves and the Rise of the kaldorei) would be the keys in making the alliance attractive. Alliance players care more about the high elves and the night elves (both long vigil and pre-sundering civilization than they care about any other alliance race many times over. You only need read and see the posts about high elves and night elves/Nightborne and what they're about to see. it will work.

So, the horde won't lose it's popularity or image, but will bleed some numbers by this. The alliance will regain much of its lost image and we would have an era where the both horde and alliance are equally popular, but feel very distinct and diverse enough, in not just a superficial character model way only. But in the types of races, their character etc etc.. And the changes it took?

Both factions still have Thalassian elves, but the culture, the assets and bulk of the population are alliance because this is alliance themed race. The horde counterparts retain the model, but their identity is developed differently so they are distinct from the alliance and they are given some model additions (optional) that would make them appear a little more different, these will be cool to attract players to pick them but ultimately would be optional

The Pandaren would swing the opposite way, with the horde pandaren retaining the breadth of the culture's society and civilization, assets etc, and while a small group remain on the alliance, they would be developed away, they could also be given some alternative optional model adjustments reflecting development, cool ones to entice the alliance players to use those more.

With the Nightborne, no model incentives need be given, because the Nightborne already look different, Suramar going alliance is easy because the Arcan'dor turns the city 's Nightborne into their kaldorei forms healing the corruption of the Nightwell, with Quel'thalas and most of their blood elf friend snow high elves, disgust at the horde over Teldrassil and murdering night elves, along with a good friendship with broken isle night elves, Dalaran human and gnomish wizards, Lightforge draenei from the Argus Legion mission, it's overwhelming and more dynamic there. They join. This is part of the Rise of the kaldorei story arc that sees night elven regain their pre-sundering expertise fully through the Highborne, restored Shal'dorei and Moonguard as well as elevated roles for the druids, the sentinels, the wardens. The priests play a huge role as they have been the one constant through both the pre-sundering civilization and the long vigil one and can fit both kaldorei cultures quite well - big boosts to kaldorei power would be utilising the Well of Eternity, utilising Emerald Dream World Tree Shala'drassil, the night Warrior power and the font of Elune. The night elves are attractive and restored to their original vision on the alliance.

This will help the alliance's image and popularity. it's not that the horde won't have improvements, they just won't be as visible or as talked up, but they would have similar to match, for example the Undead becoming a powerful force and stronghold that the forsaken lead now or have a tenuous control over, with massive bases and control in Northrend, and a part in the new affairs of Lordaeron where Calia rules and opens Lordaeron to both living humans and forsaken so it isn't faction dominated, however struggle to dominate is still an issue between humans and undead especially outside. but strong and powerful friendships also exist between the two which allows a balance and state of peace to happen at Lordaeron. Teldrassil becomes a raid, while Lordaeron becomes a neutral city - both are not in the hands of either faction, but still play a role in the story.

[Mace]

I mean I also want playable High Elves, and I think you and Ravenmoon's proposals are the most asinine arguments I have seen in a while.

The whole traditionalism of "getting back to Warcraft's roots" is just... nonsense. Warcraft has been a continuously evolving narrative and setting since it's inception, it's built on progression of it's world. To try to pretend there is a hard core of Warcraft were its "soul" lies is a nostalgic mirage. And at worst, like with you and Ravenmoon, becomes a justification to say why Warcraft should be, as you want it to be.

You want the game to regress instead of moving forward, and that is just a bad take IMO. If there's a core to Warcraft, it's its evolution and progression of fantasy tropes, not your subjective opinion of what Horde and Alliance should be.

Look, it's not my proposal, it's Ravenmoon', I think it would work, but make no mistake, I won't be as bothered anywhere near as much he or you will be. From the point of making the alliance popular and restoring the horde/alliance dichotomy he has a valid point, from any other perspective, playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.

this thread is a wish fest QQ, nothing more.

[Tanaria]

You and Mace should go back to Stormwind and grow pumpkins for your human overlords.
That's all Alliance is; Humans and their pets.

It's little wonder why Blood Elves and Nightborne perform so well...they aren't part of the "Humans and their pets, faction.

[Mace]

I think that's as good a reason as any. Blood elves don't need to have that alliance identity, in fact, initially they were given a new one, but snapped back to high elves.

The devs can ultimately do what they want, but if they are considering making the alliance desirable and attractive and restoring faction original themes, identity and dichotomy in that or so "heart of warcraft" that's what they need to do.
Orcs can befriend humans, elves can grow madly in love with trolls, they can do what the hell they want.. They are the ones that want two distinct factions and want their game based on that system. They expanded it to four in WC3, then cut it back down to two.

They have the alliance meaning one thing, and the horde meaning another. They only took the blood elves to the horde to help with numbers, not to change their philosophy of who the horde as or who the alliance was... except that action has affected it somewhat.

Well now the horde no longer needs that alliance race presence for it's numbers.. so why is it still there? If Warcraft is still about these two factions, then in order to make it work properly they need to fix this issue we have here.

But it's not the only reason, the alliance now needs the numbers, and it would also receive the boost it needs by bringing the high elves back properly. As for the blood elves, they would benefit in many ways, a new direction has many advantages, it allows them to be clearly different form their high elf past, allows them to fit more in with the horde, no need to suppress them in the narrative of the horde because they're no "horde" enough or rather too alliancey.

And you can do new things with them, this was after all the very reason they were coined in WC3. They weren't made to be high elves and now there is need for them to embrace a different direction.


Going Forward With the Factions and the Elves -
for the good of the Alliance, the Improvement of the Horde and the Good of the Game.


The horde really doesn’t need the prettiest aspects of the alliance, nor the alliance high elven and night elven cultures and their lifestyle, cities etc, but the alliance really does.

You the savage, beast, noble savage, cool beast are all hugely popular now more so than they were in the 90s and early00s when far more people looked down on such things, now everyone wants to be the man with calls, and doesn’t mind being the monster – or the bad boy, especially if you make it look cool and give it cool things.

Classic shows that without blood elves, the horde is holding its population, so I very much don’t think the horde will spiral or be crippled to an unsustainable level if most of the NPC blood elves in Quel’thalas return to the alliance as high elves and Suramar also goes night elven.
Meanwhile the horde continues to have the cool monster, primal majestic civilizations like the Zandalari can arrive in new variations like the Arrakoa, the Drakkari, Amani, a new Orc/ogre stronghold city.

And blood elves can take on a more horde centric personae and development. people found Illidari blood elves, San’layn, and Darkfallen elves quite cool – these are really nothing like high elves, nor are Naga or Felborne anything like the Night elves they once were.

Finally, you do realise the blood elves are being held back on the horde precisely because they are so alliance like – it’s not that they are not-horde like, it’s because they’re very alliance seeming, so it’s hard to make them more prominent in the story being so alliance, they will be immediate beneficiaries of this move, and can actually, once they are developed into something unrelated to their alliance themed racial past, actually play far more visible role in horde stories.

How you Proceed

At his stage of the game, with void elves, skin tones, the history and need to revitalise the alliance, blizzard should give high elves in full. The fact that blood elves will have the same model ofc doesn’t help going in the distinction direction – but like Pandaren, it’s already here. Just like we won’t remove blood elves form begin playable to fix the system, so to we won’t stop high elves from coming in fully because of model similarities, as it’s already there.

What we will instead do is adjust narrative and perception to make the two as distinct as possible in other very noticeable and visible ways.
Blood Elves
1. Blood elves new direction that is very different from high elves
2. 2. Blood elves get new architecture and established in new zones
3. Blood elves will get new customisable options for their models to reflect new powers. These will be optional, but they will give alterations to the model that will alter the silhouette somewhat and make the model look different enough – you can still choose to let your blood elf look like it is now, but the idea is that the alterations new lore and features would be cool enough to captivate many blood elf players to using them. Blood lf NPcs will have the new looks, but a small handful, like 1 in 20 would have no new features.
Nightborne:
They are already looking different enough from Night elves. When Suramar goes neutral or back to the alliance, the Nightborne in there have all pretty much been transformed to Night elves, while a few decide to halt the Arcan’dor’s healing process to keep their new form, this is far more common amongst Nightborne who refused to join the alliance. These Nightborne believe conquest is the Shal’dorei’s destiny, their rightful place (as you heard from loyalist NPCs in Suramar), and were not repulsed by the War of Thorns genocide, unlike the vast majority of the city state. A necessary pragmatic and shrewd decision to win a war.

To this effect, the Nightborne changes are largely in the story that show the development of how the Nightborne that stay on the horde depart from their kaldorei Suramar life they’ve known and becomes something else as they embrace their magic.

1. Nightborne new direction is very different from thee kaldorei pre-sundering civilization nobility and benevolence that Thalyssra exuded in 7.0
2. Nightborne get new architecture (could be merged with Naga or with blood elves’ new one) and they are established in their own corner (my suggestion is Desolace)
3. Nightborne will also get new customisation options to show case new powers and developments but it’s not as important as it is for the blood elves.

Equal Shares on Alliance and Horde:
The way it will end up game wise, only two models are shared... The High elf model (with high and void elves on alliance, blood on horde) and the Pandaren.
Pandaren would be heavily skewed horde, which means most of the Pandaren will lean towards the horde, and a few would lean towards the alliance. This is already evident in the quest chains in Pandaria anyway, the horde get a much better intro and explanation, the stronger bond is forged with Lorewalker Cho and the horde hero. Chen Stormstout has far more bonding with Vol’jin, the troll and the horde than the alliance. The Pandaren, while not a horde culture, are definitely a unique culture, rich, and majestic, and so fit the horde better. Their animal appearance, while cute lends more to the horde too.

The horde’s diversity is mis no longer because it has horde and alliance themed races but more like it has humanoid and furry types.

The Thalassians on the other hand are skewed heavily to the alliance, with most of the celebrity, history, assets of the high elves on the alliance. The horde does retain blood elves, but they are a small group and eventually advance in areas unique form the high elves. As do the San’layn and fel elves with them.

The Night elves are also heavily alliance. But while Suramar returns, the models are still separate, with the skinnier Nightborne model only exclusive to the horde, and the more medium build healthier model exclusive to the alliance. Suramar is still alliance though, but most t of the Nightborne there have become Night elves again, to them Shal’dorei is a unique Suramar caste, like Highborne is caste, not a race. The Arcan’dor fully reversed these guys back to their night elven form, but while the process was happening they got much closer to alliance races including their kaldorei kin on the island, the Highborne from Eldre’thalas now helping the alliance, the human and high elven wizards of Dalaran, and they took great interest in the void a topic that Highborne Shen’dralar are known to have studied, void elves love, half of the Order of Elune is re-acquainted with and the druids are very interested in to help protect the emerald dream. The pursuit of knowledge, the overwhelming level of kinship and then their restoration to the night elves, just ended up resulting in most of the city having more business with the alliance.

It didn’t help that Quel’thalas turned blue too, so most of their friends on the horde were now high elves on the alliance, and finally, the actions of Sylvanas during BFA, especially the war of thorns had shattered both the confidence and turst the Nightborne had of the horde, many argued that they should no longer have anything to do with the horde as this faction did not represent their value.

Seeing that they had received most of the help from their night elven kin during the Suramar conquest both the islanders and the Darnassian contingent and the majority of the blood elven army that had helped out were now calling themselves high elves and allying with the alliance... they followed suit. Many had felt joining one faction was rush they were uncomfortable, some felt it was wrong not to be on the side of aiding their kaldorei kin

So, the Suramar elves once Nightborne, are now Night elven again, the Shal’dorei Night elves, they are marked by arcane tattoos, glowing hands and arcane features to their hair that comes in 3 types, electrified strands of silver, bright purple and pink purple. A 3rd option is added to the night elf hair accessory, and that’s stars, signifying the kaldorei of the stars – so you can choose either vines, arcane strands or stars for your hair.

The Arcan’dor process can be magically halted or stalled, but most people who are in Suramar love their original night elven appearance, a few prefer the new Nightborne look, so retain it, but this is not accessible to alliance players.

Some a few number of Nightborne much preferred the horde, It’s character and its strength and have ambitions of ruling or controlling it anyway, they choose to remain with the horde and also attempt to restore Elisande, whiles Elisande isn’t enemy, this is viewed as hostile and they get banned from the city, but they succeed in that task, and this is part of a long storyline over 1 or 2 expansions that will see the horde Nightborne make new developments distinctive and different from their Suramar and Night elven past. They consider themselves the true Nightborne, and the name slowly comes to be exclusive to them. Their race is the Shal’dorei. While the city Shal’dorei are Night elves now, Highborne Shal’dorei night elves or just Shal’dorei night elves if they weren’t Highborne.

Potential Advances and Sub races:

Alliance:
High elves allied race in the Return of the high elves (none glowing eye options added to the Thalassian model)
Emerald Dream Worgen Night elf allied race in the Rise of the Kaldorei, in addition arcane customisations to represent Suramar Nightborne who regain their kaldorei form by the Arcan’dor (new arcane tattoos, and star and arcane hair options in addition to vines, glowing hands options). The new worgen are half night elf half animal with features that correspond to their enhanced form. 3 enhanced forms are customisable a wolf man (new worgen model) a bird man (modelled on the harpy) and a Panther man (modelled after the Zul’Gurub High priestess Arlokk/Bethekk and the Saberon), a bear man (modelled after the Guardian druid mage tower bear form Artifact appearance)

Horde:
Forest and Ice Trolls – loss of Quel’thalas/Silvermoon and Suramar precipitate the gain of Zul’drak, Zul’Aman, Zul’Farak and the playable bulkier model of troll.
San’layn/Darkfallen blood elf customisations – to represent one of the shifts in the blood elf (red eyes, Dk undead skins), more developments to come.
Mogu become a playable allied race in part of a story that sees the growth of horde and Pandaren relationships, in addition Tauren get Yaungol face and skin tones customisations. Rajaani Mogu, Huojin Pandaren and Yaungol form and extended unity that brings a new degree of stability to pandaren, winning many Pandas over to the horde, the Tushui Pandaren allied with the alliance.

Let’s be Frank and Honest
Despite all the advantages blood elves and the horde may get, and the ones the alliance may get, some of you may still not want this because it’s just not what you want. You lie the blood elves in this high elf mode, and I totally understand that.

I can’t force you to change what you like nor what you want. I ‘ve only presented a picture of how things good be different and better for many things to do with the game. By just affecting those two alliance races on the horde.

It’s not a popularity contest, , I am convinced that things will be better all round for everyone, better than it is with high elves and their culture sitting on the horde or night elven civilization sitting on the horde – as much as you have come to be use to it, it’s broken and it isn’t good for Warcraft in the theme the devs like so much, and it is un-necessarily breaking the game.

At the end of the day, the horde only needs the models available to play, but there is so much more you can do with what remains after the high elves return to the alliance, it will be much healthier.

Anyone who started playing wow after TBC or did not play the original RTS and classic might not understand this, but Wow seems to have lost it's soul, this is not a good thing, and it's important enough to do something about even if we disagree on what.

To stay in the horde /alliance 2-faction system, and have it blurred or homogenised to the extent it has, has made a lot of things in wow lose it's mean, in particular the very founding faction s the game is based on - now if this is low priority or not important then have it your way. But I think the devs feel that this is what Warcraft is all about, and it's that charm that built it into the great franchise it is.

They could abandon it, but it will just become like every other product and lose it's most dear function...still, who's to say the replacement won't be better right? Well many think wow's premise is already lack lustre, and I'm telling you having alliance on the horde via the blood elves and Nightborne is one of the major causes of this.

Finally, I think the alliance low numbers is definitely something that is important, and warrants some serious effort to remedy. I don't think blood elves losing Silvermoon and Quel'thalas for big High elf return or Nightborne losing Suramar to catapult the rise of the kaldorei in order to put the alliance shining brightly on the map again is actually a big price to pay.

Blood elves are only losing some territory and the Nightborne a city essentially, the alliance is gaining a part of its core that its fans have always held dear and gaining strength and presence to its two most venerated elven races - the two races they talk about the most, the high elves and the night elves.

For restoring the alliance and repairing the faction theme, and the only cost is blood elves losing some land and Nightborne losing a city full of people in the narrative to the alliance? that's a tiny price to pay for a huge benefit - only the horde elf fanbois would be upset with it. If you ask me, this would do far much more than burning Teldrassil ever did. It won't just provide interesting drama, and a far less violent one too (if my suggestion of the ones in Quel'thalas not being murdered but instead returning tot heir high elf identity and the ones in Suramar having the Arcan'dor change most of them back to Night elves, simply drift into the arms of the alliance because of the sheer number of interest from Highborne, void elves, high elves, humans, draenei, gnomes etc that are much more like them.


Blood Elves Do Not Feel Horde - Too Alliance:

They may be signed up to the horde, but they couldn't feel less horde if you tried. And this is intentional, because blizzard wanted an alliance race of high elves on the horde to lure the alliance over...that's why the blood elves calmed down through the story of TBC and got "redeemed" into Light worshippers, and good ol high elf types. This is not horde-like at all, nor is that type of civilization or culture. The irony is that the Nightborne are even more benevolent, pretty much like the Kaldorei and Farondis Highborne types, Thalyssra and her Nightfallen rebellion lot hearkening back to the original nobility of the pre-sundering kaldorei - they fit much better on the alliance with both that attitude, culture, theme, civilization and aesthetic.

The horde quests are all about killing , showing a blood thirst of some sort, or desire to conquer and be strong. This doesn’t fit the Nightborne character or the Silvermoon/Quel’thalas type blood elves – they’re more likely to sneer at this and go, typical solve everything with a fist or axe – and look down on the senseless killing – this is a very alliance type attitude, because these race are entirely based on that.

The Nightborne and Blood elves were not designed for the horde, they were designed as the night elf sub race , a night elven people and the high elves.. blizzard even made the less alliance types like Kael'thas' Sunsworn and Elisande's Loyalists enemies different and apart from these playable types – and it’s funny how those are closer to the horde, though still a bit too alliance if you ask me.

Making the Blood Elves more Horde Like

Part of the development would be to make the blood elves and Nightborne that remain on the horde (i.e.t hose that don't return to being high elves and revert to being night elves from the Arcan'dor) feel more appropriate and fitting into the hordes theme, aesthetic and character even though they're going to be unique enough anyway. the main aim is that they don't feel alliance, so they lose the lands and architecture, character, theme, ideology, and all those things get modified to something cool but more fitting.

Here are some examples to draw from:

When I look at the 1. San’layn, or 2. the Illidari fel blood elves, I get a much different vibe from them, one that fits the horde a lot better and that doesn’t feel alliance. They don’t live in beautiful high arcane cities – there is an imposing dread about the fel elf architecture that’s legion based, and if the San’layn were to build something it would look like Revendreth and Castle Nathria – majestic and imposing but definitely not high elven and not associated with the alliance.

My solution for the Nightborne remnant would be either to join the blood elves, or have their fate tied to the naga, another elven off shoot that has very little in common with the alliance type kaldorei – Highborne or otherwise. This is the direction they need to go.

Night elves did not feel less night elven for losing Teldrassil or Darnassus, Blood elves will not feel less blood elven either for losing Silvermoon, also if the blood elves shift back to the more bad boy elf, closer to the likes of
1. Illidari anti-hero types - basically the demon hunter customisations open up to a range of classes with new Orders for Warlocks and hunters replacing the old high elven Farstrider types and
2. San’layn vampire types as well - a lot of these in the new Farstrider replacement order as well as a rogue order. They also lead the blood mage
3. Blood Crystal Kael'thas Sunsworn types, this would be better .
4. Nethertouched Blood elves - without the Sunwell, those who thirst for magic employ the nether - and instead of going wretched, they gain some awesome new customisations.
5. old school high elf type - this is what should be next to none existence, however some blood elves hold on to that, few and far between, but they are available for players who want to model their blood elf after the Quel'thalas populace type, based on the high elves.

I think people will like the blood elves becoming more hard core it is a development that fits the horde and feels tougher – it hs been my observation fans haven’t liked how high elven the blood elves have become too pussy like.

People did not like them changing the night elves into passive human lovers – and while we can argue that the night elves were always benevolent from the lore if you actually bothered to read the texts and the books (and not just play WC3), they clearly had a tough ruthless side that had a moment in WC3, so that change in wow wasn’t welcome, partly because the hardcore side of night elves wasn't shown (rather than blizzard making them something they were not), and changing the Darnassian Kaldorei wasn’t necessary too, not while the night elves have the Highborne/Moonguard side of them that fits with the civilization and arcane magic themes of the alliance to draw from, they could and still can just use the Suramar restored night elves and Highborne Moonguard types to be the ones more involved with humanity and alliance culture, these Highborne/Moonguard types are after all the foremost in this sort of thing according to the lore, as their civilization is magically advanced.. so blizzard has a duality in the night elves to exploit, the more isolationist xenophobic seeming long vigil type druids and hunter priests, and the high civilization advanced arcane magic type Highborne/Moonguard and temple priests. But this is the lore of the Night elves, having half that on the horde in the Nightborne doesn’t make it any less night elven or alliance. What it does to is make the horde feel more alliance, and the lack of this part of the night elves on display on the alliance, makes the horde look more attractive to alliance type players luring them over, as well as making the night elves look like the lesser group. A night elf race having both pre-sundering magic/civilization types interacting with humans/gnomes/dwarves and high elves as well as more isolationist forest benevolent types that you use for wilderness type settings makes the race feel more alive, more complete and more importantly more based on it's lore.

However all these aspects are all alliance based. Suramar, kaldorei civilization, benevolent noble elves, Elune worshipping priests or Light wielding believers, botanists or druids with magical science and faith, high society civilization and gentil character - all of that stuff is alliance. When it sits on the horde characterising the Nightborne, it is quite clear the Nightborne don't feel horde, to those who remember the original horde, and to those who pay attention to the tone of the quests.

Take wow, despite the old guys being what they are, most horde quests are pretty savage and brutal, full of blood lust, revenge, rage, conquest, and a sense of honour that is orc based (think klingon from star trek), and not alliance like at all. Then you come to the blood elves and Nightborne and you get this very alliance type/behaving group - it's not unique. it may be unique to the horde, but it's not unique because it's 100% alliance.



Therefore the horde ones have to change to keep the distinction and their assets and NPc population returning to the alliance would boost it.

Blood elves don’t just have to have one theme, just like the night elves have several in the pre-sundering and long vigil groups , so too can the blood elves. Blood elves keep the starting experience off course, it just becomes phased like the Worgen and Goblin ones. you can return to the timeline via a Chromie visit. And enjoy Silvermoon all you want.


High Elves Return
So, the solution is the high elven aspects of the blood elves, simply become officially high elven again. And it's done in a glorious spectacular style to raise the profile of the alliance.

They return as an official allied race, no need to make void elves have full high elven appearances. I recommend the story be done in a very alliance way, through reasoning, diplomacy that highlights the conflict in ideologies and character of the horde and alliance that prompts the blood elves in Quel'thalas to decide they're high elven, this is their identity and that Sin'dorei was not a change in their race or philosophy, but a period of mourning which has now ended.

There is no slaughter of blood elves by the alliance and military capturing of Quel'thalas, the reason we have lots of high elves is because the blood elves in Quel'thalas chose to return to being high elves.

not every blood elf agreed, some love the horde, love the blood lust, love the power and despised the high elven way, these remain loyal to the horde and continue to call themselves blood elves, in time we get to see them branching intensely into blood crystal magic, fel magic, bolstering their numbers with the Darkfallen and San'layn, and harnessing the Nether, they get a different style of architecture too that reflects these changes - think Crystal song forest, think legion, think Castle Nathria, with elements of Silvermoon - the result is a unique new style, that looks impressive, and powerful - not the delicate beauty of Silvermoon- that's alliance now, but it's replacement is just as stunning and majestic in a stronger more ruthless way. Some still carry the gentler touch of the old ways, but they are far fewer, enough to allow players who like that to roleplay, but not dominate the landscape of the blood elves.

Meanwhile we see the high elves return. They are no push overs, you see much more of the Farstriders, the magisters and the priests become the face of the light rather than the Paladins. Silvermoon gets its update as blue returns, the magisters colour is blue, the Farstriders green, and the royal guard red.

• high elves areas of focus are:
• Arcane magic - mainly the frost and fire department
• Sun magic - solar magic fire is a pursued development from their time as blood elves.
• A lot of sun focus too
• Farstriders - your bow slinging wood elf Legolas trope in force here

Blizzard need to show these guys off in all the ways the fans love and desire of high elves.

one phrase for you:

TOO MUCH

This is way too much, we live together, but you've gone too far, and are taking too much time - you're trying to make horde fans agree with you by giving the horde stuff, it's too much.

To be honest, I think you are bending over backwards for the horde – it makes no difference to fans here, you don't understand what passion and love means, it's not rational, you could offer them the kitchen sink they wouldn’t take it, because the fact you want the high elves badly makes them think it’s worth more than it is, and because they view you as the enemy, any improvements you suggest for them would be ignored. It’s psychology. Plus some of them love it as it is no matter what. Just like some alliance fans loved high elves and always resented them going horde till this day.


You've given the horde way too much, they don’t’ need all that, nor do you need to make the alliance super. You’ve offered far too much, and they’re not even interested, improvements to orcs, trolls, goblins, Tauren, 4 more cities, Pandaren fully horde in all but name, the undead being even more powerful and prominent and then a rebuild of the blood elves and the Nightborne into something incredible? Did you read what you wrote? It’s too much, they’re already the popular faction by some distant, and it’s arguable whether the high elves return and the rise to prominence of the night elves would be enough to even the score, not to mention add all this stuff to the horde.

I would first boost the alliance with the High elves returning and raising the kaldorei up in a cool way, not ridiculously, then see how that goes, if it turns out to do extremely well then I’ll start adding more of the horde stuff bit by bit so the horde doesn’t lag behind (if that ever happens), but this can happen over time, as you raise the night elf profile, you can raise build up the undead.

But much of this would depend on how attractive high elves and cool night elves are to the alliance. And you will have to remember elves are not the only alliance race, so others will also need improvements. I think you people put too much stock in elves.

Or maybe it's blizzard's fault for making them the only really attractive models in game and under estimating how much of a driving force this is to most of their player base. They should have made elves the ugly race, I bet we won't have anywhere near this amount of fuss, even if the lore was exactly the same minus the beauty part.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

this thread is a wish fest QQ, nothing more.

Well, duh.

Look, it's not my proposal, it's Ravenmoon', I think it would work, but make no mistake, I won't be as bothered anywhere near as much he or you will be. From the point of making the alliance popular and restoring the horde/alliance dichotomy he has a valid point, from any other perspective, playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.

Saying he has a valid point is like saying You should cut your feet off to save on shoes. IDEK with this people that claim to like WoW, yet want to make it something completely irrecognizable under a nebulous and highly subjective view of what is "better" based on wishful thinking and personal appeal. And TBH honest, any opinion on improving the game that actually negates and regresses player choice is so uncaring about how others experience the game, and as someone that advocates for more player choice across the board, I just can't fathom people actually advocating for taking options away from other people as a valid argument.

Yes, there is a balancing issue with the factions, but the solution isn't to dumb down the setting and throw nuance away.

playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.

Should I give you the benefit of the doubt on your ignorance about this tho? IDK man. The thing that pro HE people want is for the Ideologically and Politically Alliance High Elves to be Playable -give or take personal opinion- The whole "High Elves are Playable on the Horde" nonsense got tiresome years ago.

[Tanaria]

SNIP.

I would boost Blood Elves and Nightborne with taking Ashenvale and renaming it to Felo'Thalas.

The Sunwell Magisters, under Astalor and Rommath, teleport the Sunwell to Felo'Thalas and then both elves weave great spells, protecting Kalimdor from the Alliance.

Eldre'thalas is claimed and used by the Magisters and Arcanists, governed by Rommath and Valtrois whilst Theron and Thalyssra are in Orgrimmar on Horde business. Feathermoon Stronghold is named Sundusk Stronghold where Farstriders and Duskwatch train. Victorie of the Duskwatch and Elsia of the Horde Sunreavers, watch over Sundusk Stronghold.
Isildien is for Blood Elf Priests and Blood Knights under Liadrin.

Desolace is revamped into Nightborne land, with Tauren Druid allies.
Blood Elves enchant the former Ashenvale into an Eternal Spring with bright colours and the ever eternal sun. Felo'Thalas can also serve as a Blood Elf Mage paradise...basking in the lands of their cousins who exiled their ancestors...I'd say it's poetic justice.
The Shrine of Dath'Remar should also be teleported to Felo'Thalas as well.

All in 10.0 of course.
Maybe after we see the Draenei getting kicked off their isles, by Sin'dorei, Shal'dorei and Forsaken...perhaps led by Ranger General Brightwing, Ly'leth Lunastre & Dark Ranger Velonara.

It sounds very good to me. Horde get the founts of power as well as the Nelf lands and you Alliance players can have the nice cities.

[Mace]

You and Mace should go back to Stormwind and grow pumpkins for your human overlords.
That's all Alliance is; Humans and their pets.

You need to take a chill pill, elves aren't your property and you're not a blizzard employee. Warcraft isn't real, and you should spend more time on real life issues, you're getting far too swept upon this.

I'm tired of it, I live with Ravenmoon so I get to hear all the things he writes about first hand and we constantly discuss them. By the time you get to read about them, they've already been discussed to death verbally by this household, you have no idea what the original thoughts were - his posts are lengthy because he brings up the full end result of the discussions and all the points the discussion found some sort of agreement on.

But I'm just sick of it, which is why you barely see me here, the game and it's lore has lost most of its meaning and attraction, it's become bland and one-sided, inconsistent and it's makers don't care as much, why should I? I applaud Ravenmoon's effort to try and spice it up, but I can't' find any enthusiasm to get motivated by it. or put hopes on it working, cos it really all feels so irrelevant.. it's a bloody video game, you guys take it so far you insult each other - I use to be there with you.. too involved, to into, to busy trying to prove a point and getting lost in it all forgetting what this is all about and what makes it fun.

People are real, high elves, night elves, blood elves etc are not, why waste time over it. If Ravenmoon is right and the developers don't care enough to do something about it, why should I? If you are right about it, the game holds very little interest to me in this format, and isn't changing, so I'm not coming back = it doesn't matter.

Either way it's not worth it.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

one phrase for you:

TOO MUCH

This is way too much, we live together, but you've gone too far, and are taking too much time - you're trying to make horde fans agree with you by giving the horde stuff, it's too much.

To be honest, I think you are bending over backwards for the horde – it makes no difference to fans here, you don't understand what passion and love means, it's not rational, you could offer them the kitchen sink they wouldn’t take it, because the fact you want the high elves badly makes them think it’s worth more than it is, and because they view you as the enemy, any improvements you suggest for them would be ignored. It’s psychology. Plus some of them love it as it is no matter what. Just like some alliance fans loved high elves and always resented them going horde till this day.


You've given the horde way too much, they don’t’ need all that, nor do you need to make the alliance super. You’ve offered far too much, and they’re not even interested, improvements to orcs, trolls, goblins, Tauren, 4 more cities, Pandaren fully horde in all but name, the undead being even more powerful and prominent and then a rebuild of the blood elves and the Nightborne into something incredible? Did you read what you wrote? It’s too much, they’re already the popular faction by some distant, and it’s arguable whether the high elves return and the rise to prominence of the night elves would be enough to even the score, not to mention add all this stuff to the horde.

I would first boost the alliance with the High elves returning and raising the kaldorei up in a cool way, not ridiculously, then see how that goes, if it turns out to do extremely well then I’ll start adding more of the horde stuff bit by bit so the horde doesn’t lag behind (if that ever happens), but this can happen over time, as you raise the night elf profile, you can raise build up the undead.

But much of this would depend on how attractive high elves and cool night elves are to the alliance. And you will have to remember elves are not the only alliance race, so others will also need improvements. I think you people put too much stock in elves.

Or maybe it's blizzard's fault for making them the only really attractive models in game and under estimating how much of a driving force this is to most of their player base. They should have made elves the ugly race, I bet we won't have anywhere near this amount of fuss, even if the lore was exactly the same minus the beauty part.

I mean the level of delusion of saying "you are giving the Horde too much"... when you guys literally want to take away the identity of a horde race is hilarious. I mean it's clear you guys don't care even a little bit about the Horde, but at least Ravenmoon pretends this would be good for the Horde, or at least tries to sell that.

But yeah, you want to take away the Horde's most popular race because you don't think it fits your vision of what WoW should be, and just expect Horde people to just agree that is a sensible idea? Ridonkulous.

- - - Updated - - -

You need to take a chill pill, elves aren't your property and you're not a blizzard employee. Warcraft isn't real, and you should spend more time on real life issues, you're getting far too swept upon this.

I'm tired of it, I live with Ravenmoon so I get to hear all the things he writes about first hand and we constantly discuss them. By the time you get to read about them, they've already been discussed to death verbally by this household, you have no idea what the original thoughts were - his posts are lengthy because he brings up the full end result of the discussions and all the points the discussion found some sort of agreement on.

But I'm just sick of it, which is why you barely see me here, the game and it's lore has lost most of its meaning and attraction, it's become bland and one-sided, inconsistent and it's makers don't care as much, why should I? I applaud Ravenmoon's effort to try and spice it up, but I can't' find any enthusiasm to get motivated by it. or put hopes on it working, cos it really all feels so irrelevant.. it's a bloody video game, you guys take it so far you insult each other - I use to be there with you.. too involved, to into, to busy trying to prove a point and getting lost in it all forgetting what this is all about and what makes it fun.

People are real, high elves, night elves, blood elves etc are not, why waste time over it. If Ravenmoon is right and the developers don't care enough to do something about it, why should I? If you are right about it, the game holds very little interest to me in this format, and isn't changing, so I'm not coming back = it doesn't matter.

Either way it's not worth it.

So basically you are on a physical echo chamber with Ravenmoon, and then we get subjected to that in here. Christ on a cracker.

Like you guys really are not seeing the level of nonsense you bring here. People come to this thread for entertainment, it is about a videogame, we are all well aware, but when Ravenmoon arrives with his moon logic of course it becomes a crapshow, because you guys are spouting some of the most insane ideas and think you are being totally sensible about it?

You guys are literally on an echo chamber and seem not to care about the opinion of other people at all, and act surpised and offended when people point out how ludicrous your arguments are.

[Mace]

Should I give you the benefit of the doubt on your ignorance about this tho? IDK man. The thing that pro HE people want is for the Ideologically and Politically Alliance High Elves to be Playable -give or take personal opinion- The whole "High Elves are Playable on the Horde" nonsense got tiresome years ago.

I view the whole point of the discussion as "those who want the original alliance playable on Warcraft." This is what it's all about.

Traditionalists vs modernists.

Why badly want high elves playable on the alliance when they are available as they are on the horde? Except to want the original fantasy? I'm not going to spit on people's desires just because I am fed up of it, I have argued for high elves being playable in the past, but it seems so pointless now and meaningless, like I wasted my life on trash that meant nothing. but my trash seems to be someone elses' holy grail.

And the reason I can say Ravenmoon has a point is because I can look at the proposal objectively from the point of view of making the alliance popular and restoring the Warcraft tradition. I've heard this argument a lot more than you and have discussed it a lot more, and I am exhausted, I just don't care, if I'm honest. I've ben humouring someone I like and care for, but it honestly doesn't mean that much to me. What you have to read in essays I have had to discuss in person. Talking is much easier, but lately I have felt Warcraft is so pointless getting excited about or making an effort. It's a game, the game is enjoyable for being a game, not for how accurate the lore is on elves or dragons, or how consistent it is or the philosophy of the factions and how elf movement by affect them.


At this point, if it matters so much to their public, I'd have given high elves a long time ago and be done with it. Clearly ignoring the appeals and sticking to "the high elves are on the horde" so it's no point giving hasn't worked. The guys want it, and actually it isn't that big of a deal. According to Ravenmoon, it would be a big boost for the alliance, because of how much alliance people make a fuss over it - I am inclined to agree with that point, I am also inclined to agree with how stripping the high elf out of the blood elf will affect theme and segregate the factions more.

But I don't care, you all have arguments to make that you feel are important, you may feel that such a move will destroy what the blood elves are, you'd be right, Raven's point is that such a destruction will make the horde better give the blood elves new distinct life or the chance for it if they get developed and boost the alliance, I also agree with that.. is the destruction of the blood elf as we know them currently worth it though? or necessary? That's the main argument here.

The end result will be playable high elves, but why high elves should be playable is the sort of topic I will leave to fans more interested in the game and Warcraft currently than I am.

[Tanaria]

You need to take a chill pill, elves aren't your property and you're not a blizzard employee. Warcraft isn't real, and you should spend more time on real life issues, you're getting far too swept upon this.

I'm tired of it, I live with Ravenmoon so I get to hear all the things he writes about first hand and we constantly discuss them. By the time you get to read about them, they've already been discussed to death verbally by this household, you have no idea what the original thoughts were - his posts are lengthy because he brings up the full end result of the discussions and all the points the discussion found some sort of agreement on.

But I'm just sick of it, which is why you barely see me here, the game and it's lore has lost most of its meaning and attraction, it's become bland and one-sided, inconsistent and it's makers don't care as much, why should I? I applaud Ravenmoon's effort to try and spice it up, but I can't' find any enthusiasm to get motivated by it. or put hopes on it working, cos it really all feels so irrelevant.. it's a bloody video game, you guys take it so far you insult each other - I use to be there with you.. too involved, to into, to busy trying to prove a point and getting lost in it all forgetting what this is all about and what makes it fun.

People are real, high elves, night elves, blood elves etc are not, why waste time over it. If Ravenmoon is right and the developers don't care enough to do something about it, why should I? If you are right about it, the game holds very little interest to me in this format, and isn't changing, so I'm not coming back = it doesn't matter.

Either way it's not worth it.

Maybe your the ones who need to take a step back from this.

I mean, I meet unreasonable request with unreasonable request. So if you want Horde stuff, we take Alliance stuff and that stuff will be Night Elf lands.

Sin'dorei and Shaldorei will live on Kalimdor with all night elf lands. It's fair.
Taking the Draenei isles can come in 10.1

[Mace]

But yeah, you want to take away the Horde's most popular race because you don't think it fits your vision of what WoW should be, and just expect Horde people to just agree that is a sensible idea? Ridonkulous.

I thought he wasn't proposing removing blood elves, but rather the high elf portions of them. As far as I can read, and from what we have discussed, blood elves remain on the horde in this scenario - but maybe the problem is that you keep thinking the horde will lose blood elves, rather than just the high elven alliance themed aspects.

And yes, he is offering you far too much, the horde doesn't need any of the things he is proposing, the horde is super popular, and enjoying the lionshare of the attention and relevance, it doesn't need more stuff to orcs, trolls, goblins, etc, it certainly doesn't need blood elves and Nightborne rebuilt into some amazing race, if anything they should be developed as a co-existing group, like Dwarves and Gnomes, two separate races but effectively operating together rather than two separate unique identities, Nightborne are a night elf sub-race, not a unique race, if you take the night elf civilization out of them so it can go back to the alliance, it's no point making a full entity of them, they should be allied race level of relevance, not given more precedence and meaning than say Highmountain tauren, or Mag'har orcs, or Vulpera or even Zandalari - and this is what I mean, if they put so much effort into an elven sub-race that's not traditionally horde, while leaving or ignoring Tauren development and Mag'har orc development etc.. why not put the time they would have put into the Nightborne into other races? And just tag the Nightborne to the blood elves and leave it at that? The horde is not about the elves, it never was.. it's things like that keep people like Ravenmoon and others annoyed at the whole thing.

[ravenmoon]

one phrase for you:

TOO MUCH

This is way too much, we live together, but you've gone too far, and are taking too much time - you're trying to make horde fans agree with you by giving the horde stuff, it's too much.

To be honest, I think you are bending over backwards for the horde – it makes no difference to fans here, you don't understand what passion and love means, it's not rational, you could offer them the kitchen sink they wouldn’t take it, because the fact you want the high elves badly makes them think it’s worth more than it is, and because they view you as the enemy, any improvements you suggest for them would be ignored. It’s psychology. Plus some of them love it as it is no matter what. Just like some alliance fans loved high elves and always resented them going horde till this day.


You've given the horde way too much, they don’t’ need all that, nor do you need to make the alliance super. You’ve offered far too much, and they’re not even interested, improvements to orcs, trolls, goblins, Tauren, 4 more cities, Pandaren fully horde in all but name, the undead being even more powerful and prominent and then a rebuild of the blood elves and the Nightborne into something incredible? Did you read what you wrote? It’s too much, they’re already the popular faction by some distant, and it’s arguable whether the high elves return and the rise to prominence of the night elves would be enough to even the score, not to mention add all this stuff to the horde.

I would first boost the alliance with the High elves returning and raising the kaldorei up in a cool way, not ridiculously, then see how that goes, if it turns out to do extremely well then I’ll start adding more of the horde stuff bit by bit so the horde doesn’t lag behind (if that ever happens), but this can happen over time, as you raise the night elf profile, you can raise build up the undead.

But much of this would depend on how attractive high elves and cool night elves are to the alliance. And you will have to remember elves are not the only alliance race, so others will also need improvements. I think you people put too much stock in elves.

Or maybe it's blizzard's fault for making them the only really attractive models in game and under estimating how much of a driving force this is to most of their player base. They should have made elves the ugly race, I bet we won't have anywhere near this amount of fuss, even if the lore was exactly the same minus the beauty part.

I did suggest it in stages, every alliance boost will get some horde improvement as well, I just expect the alliance having high elves and night elves to be a lot more impactful than what the horde will get, because of their importance to a lot of the populace, as such the opportunity should be used to make the horde races more attractive. Better architecture and infrastructure for orcs and new troll sub-races that join, just like I suggested model improvements for night elves, you are making other races more attractive./

If the horde is to lose two cities, it should be gaining at least 4, because the alliance is gaining those 2. The iea is not to ravage the horde but to improve the alliance and horde, in such a way that would make the alliance more exciting and attractive, but still have the horde have new incentives to stay on it, but this time it would be for being the horde, for being orcs, trolls, Tauren, goblins and forsaken and pandas, rather than for being high elves under a horde banner or night elven Highborne types under a horde banner which are alliance attractions.

This will take a while for some to get use to, the initial allure will be to the alliance because the high elves return in a fancy and cool way and the night elves are boosted too with improvements – this is important to get the alliance going again, but while the horde loses numbers, it doesn’t lose popularity or image, and it’s image gets pushed into what its core is about, so players on it get to love the horde for being the horde, and not for having high elves on it. This would make them far happier later down the line when you write the horde as the horde and when you give horde improvements to orcs/troll/tauren etc, which doesn’t happen right now because too many are blood elf minded, and that aspect of the blood elves they like so much is high elven.

So stripping it away from the blood elves would also be a huge win for the horde, if those that love the blood elves can love them for being a tighter, meaner, less high elven group, less about fancy living in porcelain cities and more about things like power, magic, survival, etc with a harsher more imposing style to their architecture rather than pretty and flowery (which is what the blood elf and Nightborne ones are because that’s what the high elf and kaldorei civilization are), then this is very good .

You want people liking the horde for being it’s core – orcs, trolls, tauren, goblins etc.. if they get humans (in the forms of undead) and high elves (in the form of blood elves), night elves in the form of (Nightborne), you don’t want this being like their original races - which is what the blood elves and Nightborne are currently, you want them being like what the undead became, distinct enough from the original, like what the naga became, different models aside, the culture, civilization, structure of the undead and naga are very different form humans and night elves, this is what you want, and while the blood elf model won’t change, it’s culture, architecture, it’s new cities in the future can all be different and not high elven.

So the horde will feel different for being the horde.

[Mace]

Maybe your the ones who need to take a step back from this.

I mean, I meet unreasonable request with unreasonable request. So if you want Horde stuff, we take Alliance stuff and that stuff will be Night Elf lands.

Sin'dorei and Shaldorei will live on Kalimdor with all night elf lands. It's fair.
Taking the Draenei isles can come in 10.1

I have stepped back, but I think you need to as well. Take it or leave it.

[Tanaria]

I thought he wasn't proposing removing blood elves, but rather the high elf portions of them. As far as I can read, and from what we have discussed, blood elves remain on the horde in this scenario - but maybe the problem is that you keep thinking the horde will lose blood elves, rather than just the alliance aspects.

And yes, he is offering you far too much, the horde doesn't need any of the things he is proposing, the horde is super popular, and enjoying the lionshare of the attention and relevance, it doesn't need more stuff to orcs, trolls, goblins, etc, it certainly doesn't need blood elves and Nightborne rebuilt into some amazing race, if anything they should developed as a co-existing group, like Dwarves and Gnomes, two separate races but effectively operating together rather than two separate unique identities, Nightborne are a night elf sub-race, not a unique race, if you take the night elf civilization out of them so it can go back to the alliance, it's no point making a full entity of them, they should be allied race level of relevance, not given more precedence and meaning than say Highmountain tauren, or Mag'har orcs, or Vulpera or even Zandalari - and this is what I mean, if they put so much effort into an elven sub-race that's not traditionally horde, while leaving or ignoring Tauren development and Mag'har orc development etc.. why not put the time they would have put into the Nightborne into other races? And just tag the Nightborne to the blood elves and leave it at that? The horde is not about the elves, it never was.. it's things like that keep people like Ravenmoon and others annoyed at the whole thing.

The Alliance isn't about the Elves either.
All the Alliance is, is Humans and their pets in Stormwind.

And you remove nightborne and Blood Elves from their home, then nelfs are removed from Kalimdor and Lor'themar and Thalyssra primarily claim Ashenvale, renamed to Felo'Thalas and Desolace, but they also claim Eldre'Thalas, Feralas, Hyjal and other places.
Valtrois,Oculeth, Liadrin, Rommath, Victorie and Elsia manage these locations in Feralas.

Duskwatch Elites, Magister Elites and the Blood Hawks remain and protect Felo'Thalas.

Later on, they claim the Sun Gate and the Forsaken, Sin'dorei and Nightborne drive the Draenei out. Thus is led by Ranger General Brightwing, Ly'Leth of Suramar and Dark Ranger Velonara.

I have stepped back, but I think you need to as well. Take it or leave it.

I'm not the initial one coming up with unreasonable requests.

[Mace]

snip .

Tanaria, you and Ravenmoon have lost perspective.. you are arguing tit for tat, he is going out of his way to make sure the horde and alliance get equal dibs, if one faction loses something it must gain something too etc.

So are you, you think what you are suggesting is unreasonable because he is being unreasonable but your suggestion is exactly what blizzard proposed in Blizzcon BFA for the factions. But again it's tit for tat and bad story telling. You are all rather stupidly caught in a rather silly game of pleasing rather than doing what's best.

A great story won't ever give the two factions equal shares , you should be able to write one to the brink of extinction and back again, in an exciting story that has interesting things happening.. Warcraft is so bad it makes star wars look very good, but they at least manage to have sometimes the republic lose and other times the empire badly without their two factions feeling less powerful or less relevant.

Blizzard devs don't know how to write, the game is a male nerd jerk fantasy. They play their favourites to death.. they did it with classes and they did it with races and factions and still do. Look at how super muscular and rugged the males are and how super model babes the females are, like 80s cartoon hero ideas of cool, because it's what they find cool, not what is considered cool by the people they are making the game for and the cultural changes that story content and character aesthetics depends on far more than other game systems.

They're lucky that their game instincts are very good for the population but for story, aesthetics, balancing things like races etc, it's terrible, they play favourites.. and that is because thy don't take it serious. The things they do take seriously, like art, and systems they work so much more harder for and make far more calculated decisions, but as for favourites whether class or faction or race, they show these things to be not anywhere near as important and you can tell, they don't take them as seriously.