1. #23161
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Raven, I honestly don't believe what happened in TBC with Blood Elves going Horde can be replicated today.

    First and foremost, Alliance already has what I feel most would consider traditionally aesthetically appealing races (general speaking)... the Horde didn't really have that until TBC. Secondly, it wasn't only Blood Elves that the Horde got which incentivized Alliance players to swap to Horde, but it was also the Paladin class. This was a big deal as Paladins were superior to Shamans for endgame raiding. Then of course there was Arcane Torrent which remained an incredible racial for many many years.

    The Alliance can't be bolstered by shitting on the Horde. The Blood Elves and Nightborne, as they are right now, with all their lore and cities intact, are Horde and Blizzard isn't going to take those things away from them. If by making the Alliance "look better than the Horde" you mean aesthetics, that's not going to help the Alliance's endgame progression engagement. The Alliance already look good. It's one of the reasons they were top of the hill in Vanilla. If anything the Alliance look even better today (aesthetically) than they ever have thanks to Shadowlands. Aesthetics may get people to play Alliance, but they won't fix endgame engagement motivation.
    Tbf, only horde elf fans consider that "shitting" on the horde, but I hear your point. I don't think what happened in TBC needs to be replicated on the scale that it did, I think the alliance is still well loved, it's just rusty, it will take a little fire to light it and it can run..

    The blood elves were a catalyst back in TBC, but it was much more than them, every narrative decision put the horde at the centre, to raise its profile, every cool development favoured the horde and if it was alliance centric, it was shared with the horde, the horde either had to have the same or better every single time, the net result was the shifting perception of the horde from the lame, evil faction to the cool faction. Cultural shifts also influenced that. Off the back of the 80s/90s your noble virtuous hero was the most popular, as the 00s progressed your edgy emo , anti-hero part monster dude became quite the in thing.


    With the horde's reputation much better, it is much popular , it doesn't need high elven assets in the blood elves to maintain that. This is why I know it can afford to lose those assets even though the race is still playable on the horde. The alliance on the other hand would HUGELY benefit from high elves making a big re-entry splash to the playable spectrum and the kaldorei actually truly shining in all the aspects of their lore on the alliance this time.


    The reason why the horde needs to lose Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar is to widen the dichotomy of the two factions , distinguish them better, and heal the identity crisis on the horde, which exists precisely because the blood elves are far too high elven an d have a too high elven and thus alliance type of civilization /set of assets etc, same with the Nightborne. That's why you're removing them, the alliance popularity doesn't need the blood elves to lose the Silvermoon or the Nightborne to lose Suramar - the horde needs this more. however the alliance gaining it will make the alliance shine brighter - still alternatives could be simply building an even better pair of cities for the night elves and high elves - so the blood elves and Nightborne don't lose anything.

    The problem is if the blood levs and Nightborne don't loose those high elf things and night elf civilization things, the horde still feels too alliancey, too much alliance on it, because those things are too alliance themed. this is why they have to go.


    If you have followed my posts throughout the years I have suggested many things, never this, I've always bene in favour of not nerfing anyone and instead just buffing where needs to be, but sometimes, a little pain and loss can go a long way and open the door for something much better, and shouldn't be avoided - when mistakes need to be corrected.





    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Hypothetically, let's say Blizzard adds High Elves to the Alliance. Now let's say this High Elf race uses the same popular Thalassian model and the blue and arcane eye options we are all familiar with, but other assets like hairstyles, tattoos, scars, jewelry etc. are unique and these High Elves have a unique idle stance, voices and emotes. They also have the full range of human spectrum hair colors and a few more fantasy colors like silver and blue, and all Alliance High Elf NPC's are updated to use the new assets so they are more distinct from Blood Elves. The High Elves even get a spectacular new capital city!

    Now, tell me how does any of that incentivize an endgame progression minded Horde guild to switch to Alliance? The answer is... it doesn't.

    Let's delve a little further into our hypothetical High Elf race. Let's say they have amazing racials that are practical and useful in every area of the game. For example, let's say the racials are a single passive that provides both a 5% bonus to reputation gains and a 5% discount from all vendors, an active racial that's basically Blink on a 2 min cooldown, and they have a passive +5% damage/healing proc identical to Entropic Embrace in function but with an arcane themed visual aura instead of changing their skin color. Oh and these High Elves can be every class in the game!

    Now the Horde progression guilds are going to be incentivized to at least consider swapping because... well... any class could hop the fence and the racials are pretty impressive and useful in endgame. That the High Elves are aesthetically appealing in every way, is just icing on an already rich and delicious cake. They'd still have to consider the loss of the robust Horde endgame scene, but the lure could be enough to make them bite that bullet and hope others swap as well.

    The problem here is that Blizzard doesn't want there to be a massive shift of people from Horde to Alliance. According to the last interview I saw mentioning population numbers, the populations are fairly close. It's the endgame engagement that's lacking on the Alliance. There's also the fact that the above racials would never happen because they are just too good and unless Blizz opened up every class to every race, they'd never let a single race have access to every class.. Half of human's diplomacy? The Void Elf damage proc? Having a 2 min cooldown Blink on any class? Being able to have that on any class? It would swing things drastically, and a drastic swing isn't the desired outcome.

    Blizzard doesn't see Blood Elf and Nightborne aesthetics on the Horde as an issue. The Horde are doing just fine and Blizzard don't want to rock that boat beyond maybe making Alliance just alluring enough to tempt some endgame players to swap. That's as far as they want to go. They aren't going to remove any stuff that Blood Elves and Nightborne already have. They also aren't likely to ever add High Elves as their own race at this point. With the new customization options, I'm fairly certain Blizzard considers the request for Alliance High Elves fulfilled, even if some players do not. At best, more aesthetic options (and possibly class options) can be added to Void Elves to flesh out the High Elf fantasy further, and the lore (both in-game and out) can be expanded to show that the remnants of the Quel'dorei have joined the Ren'dorei.
    I cover this extensively in my earlier discussion, I thoroughly recommend reading it. The key to solving the problem with the alliance numbers in understanding why it is like it is.

    Many people think it's things like racials, or the blood elf model , or horde guilds. It isn't. It's popularity and perception - it was the lore/narrative and presentation changes that made the horde very cool, that changed it's perception.

    You need to make a cool shiny big song and dance over the alliance for a little while, and favour it for cool and nice things - this will do the trick. you don't even need new stuff, because the alliance races actually have a lot of cool things about them totally underutilised , ignored and siphoned off to the horde. Quel'thalas, Silvermoon and the kaldorei civilization are examples of things siphoned off, lame dwarves, lame night elves that have little magic, no well of eternity use, no fancy world tree magic use etc, going from a great multi-spectrum race to effectively a niche forest elf only expression - boring dwarves, Draenei who are just always agreeable - it lacks fire and imagination and grossly under utilised. Night elves have fascinating things in their lore, Suramar is evidence of it, and that's not even all, the Illidari are under utilised, the whole mystic of the stars - they call themselves children of the stars, had astrology towers in their civilization and so much mystery to the order of Elune that was intertwined with the mages and the people and the druids - so much non used, only the same one dimension druid take for most of it..

    Want to see dwarves interesting/ you watched the hobbit? you played Warhammer? Dwarves can be so much cooler than they are making them in Warcraft.. it's all perception hun.


    Do the horde need the blood elves? Well look at classic relaunch, there are no blood elves in the 2018 relaunch, but the overall population is 50/50 now why is that? Because the horde is no longer perceived as the lame faction. it didn't even need eye candy models, those were just the incentive back in the TBC days to lure players over and establish a trend...once the trend is established it is no longer need, emphasis should have switched to the orcs and trolls, they should have done majestic troll and orc places like Daza'ralor/Zuldazar rather than sling more alliance elven stuff (like Suramar) over tot he horde. Void elves should have been darker and a direction tied into blood elves while high elves the vanilla version gone to the alliance. But that didn't happen.

    So what do we do now to change alliance perception.. make the elves incredible like they can really be, for being alliance type elves, in their native way - don't shunt that to the horde, the horde is not the faction of high elves traditionally, just because blood elves have sat on the horde since TBC, they've never become more horde like, they've remained very high elven which is an alliance template - if the alliance popularity is low, because it's unattractive and uninteresting, make it exciting. Find out what makes the alliance exiting and the players excited about it and make the shine bright and glorious like the sun.

    And if you have any sense, you'd quickly see it is high elves and Night elves that do more for the alliance than any other factions. Even not playable, alliance players wish for and make more posts about high elves than they do dwarves, Draenei, worgen, gnomes, pandas COMBIND... it is alliance fans that talk more about Nightborne lore than horde fans do .. horde fans only talk about blood elves (Nightborne talks are just moans about the models), Night elves are the other massive alliance topic - there is such a desire for them to be cool, powerful, fierce, badass, magical etc - it shows you the things the alliance players like and want are not been given them, if you want all those players who've transferred to the horde to go back.. make their alliance cool again, change the perception.

    This is why I feel it needs a big splash again.

  2. #23162
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    What you feel and what Blizzard are content with are two different things.

    As mentioned, Blizzard are seemingly very happy with the Horde. Each race gets it's time in the sun. Hell, Blood Elves hadn't been seen probably, on their own, until Legion in 7.1. They only had cameo appearances between TBC and Legion.
    Blizzard wanted to give the Forsaken race a leading part and this is where they developed the character of Nathanos, but also the character of Velonara, who was always a bit shaky on Sylvanas' leadership.

    The writers for the Horde are seemingly just more, in-the-know, about each race and that is why they all get equal development. Nightborne only had 8.2 of BFA, since joining the Horde. Everything else was Orc, Tauren, Forsaken, Troll and Goblin.
    I don't think you truly understand the Horde narrative and the way the Horde writers have always been. Unlike the Alliance that forces Humans at the front, the Horde writers actually look at each race and use them appropriately. 8.2 gave story to the Blood Elves and Nightborne as they were the races that made sense for the story. Typically, Alliance writers pushed Jaina to the forefront - that's not a Horde problem, that's the Alliance writers' problem. Shandris was involved and heavily used in the Eternal Palace raid, but that's about it.

    During the faction assaults, they had the Orcs be the Warriors, the Blood Elves and Nightborne serve as the Mages, the Trolls serve as Hunters and the Forsaken serve as Rogues and Warlocks and these are just a few examples. Blizzard know what they're doing and despite the horrible story of BFA, it has worked in 90% of the cases.

    Horde don't need to lose Silvermoon or Suramar. They are Horde assets, no matter how much you try and headcanon it.

    EDIT: In fact, it wasn't until the Shadowlands pre-patch did we see any living elf direct and take leadership of the Horde. Lor'themar, not being the Warchief, was the very first time we'd actually seen a living elf be the de-facto leader of the Horde faction.
    Sylvanas, being undead and leader of the Forsaken, doesn't really count as she primarily led the undead humans.

    Shadowlands pre-patch was the first time an elf, who led elves, was leading the Horde. Not as "Warchief" but as the main commander. Blood Elf fans, myself included, have never really imagined Lor'themar being the Warchief, especially now considering how Garrosh, Vol'jin and Sylvanas were handled, but I think the majority of blood elf fans were happy to see Lor'themar be the main commander of the Horde forces. It could create an interesting dynamic between him and Turaylon and we could see the first antagonistic alliance, attack the horde.

    At this stage, we have a more peaceful Horde commander in Lor'themar and a more zealous Alliance commander in Turaylon.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-29 at 06:29 PM.

  3. #23163
    Can Blizzard focus the narrative on the Alliance and have them be more proactive rather than always reactive to whatever the Horde is doing? Sure! That'd be great! I think the Horde would also like not being beat in the head with the villain bat for a while too. But that doesn't have to come at the cost of anything Horde has currently. Blizzard simply has to want to devote the narrative and spotlight to the Alliance in a big and consistent way for a significant amount of time. Unfortunately, even ignoring the fact that, as a two faction game Blizzard cant simply ignore one faction or the other, the culture surrounding WoW for the bulk of it's life makes that difficult.

    The Horde are "cool". The Alliance are "boring". And don't forget "Horde bias!". It's a matter of perception, and the perception of the Alliance would need to change in a big way to attract the types of players who engage heavily in endgame progression. Blizzard gave literal Blood Elves (painted blue) to the Alliance and it made no difference. Now those literal Blood Elves no longer have to be blue and I'm betting in the near future they'll get a bunch of new hair color and hairstyle options allowing them to appear virtually indistinguishable from Blood Elves. And even if they tossed Paladin and Demon Hunter access to Void Elves on top of that, I still don't think it's would make much difference. The "idea" that the Horde are the "cool" faction is so ingrained in the culture of both Blizzard (there's an orc statue on their front lawn), and the playerbase, that I am hard-pressed to think of what could change that perception.

    I think giving the Alliance more majestic elves and magical cities is just going to make the people already playing Alliance happier, but I don't believe it will make the Alliance seem "cool", encourage existing Alliance players to engage in endgame progression more, or draw endgame progression minded Horde players to switch.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-01-29 at 06:39 PM.

  4. #23164
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Can Blizzard focus the narrative on the Alliance and have them be more proactive rather than always reactive to whatever the Horde is doing? Sure! That'd be great! I think the Horde would also like not being beat in the head with the villain bat for a while too. But that doesn't have to come at the cost of anything Horde has currently. Blizzard simply has to want to devote the narrative and spotlight to the Alliance in a big and consistent way for a significant amount of time. Unfortunately, even ignoring the fact that as a two faction game Blizzard cant simply ignore one faction or the other, the culture surrounding WoW for the bulk of it's life makes that difficult.
    In an ironic twist of fate, Blizzard could pull off a proactive Alliance with Turaylon as leader. He is far more zealous than Anduin and with Lor'themar seemingly being the defacto Horde commander, who is more reasonable and more for nation security, it could spice things up.

    With Lor'themar and Turaylon as the commanders of their respective factions, we could see the tables turn. Plus, if Tyrande hasn't been calmed by the end of Shadowlands, then we do have more bite in the Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I think giving the Alliance more majestic elves and magical cities is just going to make the people already playing Alliance happier, but I don't believe it will make the Alliance seem "cool", encourage existing Alliance players to engage in endgame progression more, or draw endgame progression minded Horde players to switch.
    It won't solve any purpose, other than making a few alliance elf fans happy.
    Nightborne and Blood Elves are Horde races with Horde assets. Nothing of their's should be lost, unless Alliance is prepared to say goodbye to Kalimdor, to compensate for the Horde losing the Eastern Kingdoms and Broken Isles.

    Yes, that does also mean the Night Elves will have to face another defeat. It's not what Night Elf fans will likely want, but it's tough, I'm afraid.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-29 at 06:39 PM.

  5. #23165
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP.
    I think this is it for me; you simply continue to not address any of the issues we keep presenting and just repeating your views again. You are not interested on a discussion, you don't care about how it doesn't work, you simply say "well it's my opinion" without any attempt to understand why your opinion and premise would negatively impact the experience of huge swaths of the playerbase.

    And that's what's really unconscionable about your premise, you care only for your vision regardless of how it would affect others very real enjoyment of the game -cause again, to be clear, you literally want to remove an elven identity that has been part of the Horde for 15 years- and I am done humoring it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Can Blizzard focus the narrative on the Alliance and have them be more proactive rather than always reactive to whatever the Horde is doing? Sure! That'd be great! I think the Horde would also like not being beat in the head with the villain bat for a while too. But that doesn't have to come at the cost of anything Horde has currently. Blizzard simply has to want to devote the narrative and spotlight to the Alliance in a big and consistent way for a significant amount of time. Unfortunately, even ignoring the fact that, as a two faction game Blizzard cant simply ignore one faction or the other, the culture surrounding WoW for the bulk of it's life makes that difficult.
    That's the huge problem with Ravenmoon's proposals, he cares not for literally taking away 15 years of Horde identity. I am obviously alliance leaning, but I can't help but see such a view as utterly uncaring as to how others enjoy the game. And all for the sake of a simplistic dichotomy.

    Also the sheer idea that what the alliance needs to be popular is elves is just... silly. It's far from the only option and it's just weird to present it as the only/best choice.

    Humans are always the most popular race; if they gave humans the options to have leaner bodies like elves... yeah.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    In an ironic twist of fate, Blizzard could pull off a proactive Alliance with Turaylon as leader. He is far more zealous than Anduin and with Lor'themar seemingly being the defacto Horde commander, who is more reasonable and more for nation security, it could spice things up.

    With Lor'themar and Turaylon as the commanders of their respective factions, we could see the tables turn. Plus, if Tyrande hasn't been calmed by the end of Shadowlands, then we do have more bite in the Alliance.



    It won't solve any purpose, other than making a few alliance elf fans happy.
    Nightborne and Blood Elves are Horde races with Horde assets. Nothing of their's should be lost, unless Alliance is prepared to say goodbye to Kalimdor, to compensate for the Horde losing the Eastern Kingdoms and Broken Isles.

    Yes, that does also mean the Night Elves will have to face another defeat. It's not what Night Elf fans will likely want, but it's tough, I'm afraid.
    At the end of the day, Ravenmoon's proposal is just the laziest way to force a faction dichotomy, by making the setting more simplistic and dumbing down in universe choice. The premise that the alliance need elves t be cool is just silly, when the alliance has existed without that "magical and aracne" aspect of elves since... ever. Alliance has always had "forest elves" to pretend the imperial arcane themes belong to the alliance is disingenous.

    There are so many other ways to give the alliance a stronger identity, and I am really bummed that this thread has become about engaging with what is downright a bad idea.

  6. #23166
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Humans are always the most popular race; if they gave humans the options to have leaner bodies like elves... yeah.
    I must admit... if Human males had a "lean body" option... I would actually make one.

  7. #23167
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    At the end of the day, Ravenmoon's proposal is just the laziest way to force a faction dichotomy, by making the setting more simplistic and dumbing down in universe choice. The premise that the alliance need elves t be cool is just silly, when the alliance has existed without that "magical and aracne" aspect of elves since... ever. Alliance has always had "forest elves" to pretend the imperial arcane themes belong to the alliance is disingenous.

    There are so many other ways to give the alliance a stronger identity, and I am really bummed that this thread has become about engaging with what is downright a bad idea.
    The first time Blizzard brought the "Arcane Elf" thing to the Alliance in any real format, where players could play it, was with Night Elf Mages in 2011 and even then, they didn't really explore it, aside from in Feralas, Azshara and Felwood, with a few scattered quest NPC's.

    Before that, it was the Horde Blood Elves that truly commanded the "Arcane Elf" scene, that players could also pick. Hell, my main alt in WoTLK was a Blood Elf Arcane Mage and it felt really good to play...using the Sunreaver Tabard (although, I didn't have the Sunreaver Mounts, I did use the Swift Red Hawkstrider and the Magnificent Flying Carpet.)
    Despite it's flaws, TBC Eversong Woods does an excellent job of showcasing the Sin'dorei's mastery of the Arcane. That has been shown to be improving every single step with most of Silvermoon's Magister involved with Blood and Fire Magics.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-29 at 07:44 PM.

  8. #23168
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    What you feel and what Blizzard are content with are two different things.
    And because you are not blizzard, you have no idea or authority over what that is, nor do I. So let's just call it what it is.

    This is not an official evaluation or presentation of ideas to the blizzard board, it's vanity for us to "make compromises" and chop and change or barter for who should get what - because we do not determine those things, nor do we get a say in the meetings where these things are discussed.

    So why get angry? Keep on suggesting and imagining, it doesn't matter whether someone disagrees with me or doesn't like what i have to say, I'm not trying to convince blizzard, and I'm not trying to convince you, you really need to remember that.

    i am sharing my observations and what I think about the situation, what I've noticed. You show me 0 courtesy because you don't seem to actually consider or read it. At least Kyrianni, MyWholeLifeIsThunder and Eleann have demonstrated that they have understood, so to Beloren and Alanar - at least to a certain extent because they 've hit at the real issue behind all of this.


    Beloren and Thunder visit the tradition versus change angle - why the need to go back to the original alliance and horde dichotomies anyway - that is a legitimate question I find anyway, because we are dealing with the heart of the problem with the alliance and why I have concluded High elves are not only desirable but necessary and why the horde's blood elves need to change.

    Thunder is all about change to avoid the original tradition, but he balks at the idea of blood elves changing to fit a non-alliance theme, he also challenges the legitimacy of calling the blood elves alliance themed, which is just a shallow excuse, everyone knows the blood elves are essentially alliance on the horde, , we all know they fit more with the alliance than the horde, thunder himself recognises this as did Brigante on the official forums in pointing out that the horde needs that diversity the blood elves bring.. to which I disagree..it doesn't. I concur it needs diversity and new things, but it needs different things, those things don't need to be alliance things, and it shouldn't have alliance things as this imbalances the factions, you can't have the horde have such powerful alliance themes, more attractive than the alliance, in addition to what it has, while the alliance is dead in the water.. it totally undermines the alliance and dilutes the horde, I and he has no suitable answer for this.

    So if you don't return to the original heart, where do you go? Beloren's future really, no factions, multiple factions, or players choosing wherever they want to go or a compromise of that, this isn't a bad idea, it's just not the original Warcraft, not Warcraft as we know it. And you can argue that everything changes, it's true things can change, but at what point do they stop being what they were and you might as well change the name? it comes down to blizzard deciding whether they want to leave that warcraft foundation behind or not. I have many times argued for leaving it behind and going Thunder & Beloren's direction, that is stiil my first choice. Whether you believe me or not, however, I have made these recent posts on the premise that the aim is to recapture the heart of warcraft, with the two factions doing what they do best

    Kiryanni makes another valid point, she questions whether the inclusion of the high elves would sufficiently turn the tide as I claim, and makes an observation that merits consideration, she reckons it won't, and that taking things from the blood elves would make it worse, using the TBC example isn't that valid because it's a new era and things have changed. however I disagree, I have a gut feeling it would work very well, and the past does give precedence. it's not a sure thing ofc, we don't know, but given the mentality of the players, what excites the alliance, and the fact the horde can stand on its two feet without needing Silvermoon and Suramar in their face makes me confidence it would be enough to boost the alliance, without destroying the horde.

    The horde will lose some popularity, this is expected when the other faction becomes popular - you need a net flow to the alliance, you will have no other solutions but to let the alliance appear cooler and better than the horde for a little while.. it doesn't mean the horde has to look terrible, far from it, but if the alliance is to shine brightly and attract others, it needs to have the limelight and the resurgence, and the elves are the key. If managed with the same initiative and tenacity as the opposite was in TBC, it would fix the problem quickly.

    now this is where the crux of the debate should lie, not in mis-interpreting that I am proposing horde blood elves are no longer playable, that just shows you either didn't read a thing or barely touched on the details and had already set yourself to oppose it regardless what was said so felt you didn't need to read it. Or you read it, and hated it and set out to manipulate and deceive others claiming that blood elves no longer on the horde is a ridiculous idea framing it to mean I was saying blood elves would no longer be a horde race - which is not what I said, and which I find a bit too far stretched. Possible but very very unlikely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And I am willing to bet you didn't read the majority of what I wrote, you skimmed it, saw a few points you could argue - and penned a response. trust me, it shows in your responses.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-01-29 at 08:45 PM.

  9. #23169
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    Or...Horde keeps Horde things, as in - Silvermoon and Suramar and you get over it, since you no longer play?
    Alliance Elves have to wait until, maybe 10.0.

    Have Hyjal and Allerian Stronghold.
    Core bases for Night Elves, High Elves and Void Elves.

    Oh and maybe, if you lose your arrogance and discuss other people's ideas, rather than forcing your ideas down their throats, I will treat you with more respect. All your saying is "my ideas are the best ideas. Yours are alright, but mine are simply better and they must happen." No, I don't do that - if you want respect, you earn it and you discuss other ideas that people have, openly with them, rather than pushing your personal agenda, which is just you being a salty boy for 3 years, because Blizzard gave the Alliance, Void Elves, LF Draenei, Alleria and Turaylon, and the Horde got Suramar.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-29 at 09:24 PM.

  10. #23170
    It's fine to have an opinion, or to speculate about things that could be done to bring about a desired result, but I prefer to put my efforts towards things that actually have a realistic chance of happening. Taking Silvermoon and/or Suramar away from the Horde just isn't realistic. So to affect actual change, I focus on things that are within the realm of possibility.

    The devs aren't going to change Blood Elves and/or Nightborne just to make the Alliance look better. This is a path that leads nowhere and any efforts made towards pushing for this are essentially a dead end.

    The devs might add more customization options, class options, and lore, to reinforce that Void Elves are the Alliance High Elves by showing in-game questlines and NPC dialogues/interactions detailing the why's of this decision by the former Quel'dorei. This is the path I support now. It would take the Alliance High Elves out of their "stasis chamber" and allow them to move forward in story development. I do understand that those seeking High Elves would have preferred a different path than the Ren'dorei, I would have too, but it's what we have to work with now and it's unlikely that Blizzard will add another Thalassian race to the Alliance.

    The devs might add more customization options and lore to reinforce the fact that the Shen'dralar (Highborne) did return to Night Elf society. I support this path as well. More options are always welcome and it's a fact, though oft overlooked, that some Highborne were accepted back into Night Elf society, which is why they have mages now. The Night Elf story could see the Night Elf people looking to the arcane once again as they desperately try to rebuild their society after the devastation of Teldrassil. I believe that's well within the realm of things the devs might be willing to explore. It wouldn't mean a forsaking of the Night Elf focus on nature themes, but the arcane themes could see a bit more prominence alongside them.

    The devs have previously seemed reluctant to outright remove the faction barrier, but I have a feeling it's inevitable to some degree. Just like mercenary mode for pvp, I believe it's possible that some sort of pve version of that could come about, if only due to the fact that WoW is an old game and there are only so many people who will play the game now. New players are few and far between, and old players sometimes don't return. Assuming the devs can't figure out a way to incentivize endgame progression on the Alliance, then only recourse I can see for them is to allow cross-faction grouping in some way. The two factions are integral to the foundation of wow, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for flexibility.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-01-29 at 09:29 PM.

  11. #23171
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    The devs might add more customization options and lore to reinforce the fact that the Shen'dralar (Highborne) did return to Night Elf society. I support this path as well. More options are always welcome and it's a fact, though oft overlooked, that some Highborne were accepted back into Night Elf society, which is why they have mages now. The Night Elf story could see the Night Elf people looking to the arcane once again as they desperately try to rebuild their society after the devastation of Teldrassil. I believe that's well within the realm of things the devs might be willing to explore. It wouldn't mean a forsaking of the Night Elf focus on nature themes, but the arcane themes could see a bit more prominence alongside them.
    It's very possible, that the Arcane Highborne could take up a more active role - the last time the Night Elves as a whole, truly prospered was under leadership of an Arcane wielder (although said arcane wielder also brought about their own ruin as well.)
    Highborne towers and buildings in and around Darkshore could be a way of a force-field being conjured by the Shen'dralar which protects the Night Elves' new capital which could be Mathystra.

    I think, if the Highborne play an active role, Hyjal isn't the best location for them, due to it being very Druidic - it's possible that the Highborne conjure and rebuild the ancient city of Mathystra and this is where the Night Elf civillians choose to live. This also follows on from the Battle for Darkshore, which I think, needs to have some sort of in-game conclusion. A 40 seconds cinematic isn't cutting it for me and the fact that it swaps between being controlled by the Forsaken, then the Night Elves...nah, if you want that, you've got the Bronze Dragons and Chromie Time.

    Or - due to Maiev and the Wardens returning, could this be a return to the Night Elven Wardens holding more of a presence? Maiev is relentless when angered...I mean, Tyrande + Night Warrior isn't a pretty thing, but Maiev + Night Warrior...I reckon Sylvanas would be doing her utmost to stay well clear of Maiev, if she was the Night Warrior.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-29 at 09:41 PM.

  12. #23172
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I must admit... if Human males had a "lean body" option... I would actually make one.
    They do, they're called high elves (or blood elves or void elves )

  13. #23173
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    In an ironic twist of fate, Blizzard could pull off a proactive Alliance with Turaylon as leader. He is far more zealous than Anduin
    Lol, a zealot who sleeps with a void elf, condemns Xe'ra after her death, supports Anduin's peaceful policy, and is friendly towards the forsaken and mages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    The devs might add more customization options, class options, and lore, to reinforce that Void Elves are the Alliance High Elves by showing in-game questlines and NPC dialogues/interactions detailing the why's of this decision by the former Quel'dorei. This is the path I support now. It would take the Alliance High Elves out of their "stasis chamber" and allow them to move forward in story development. I do understand that those seeking High Elves would have preferred a different path than the Ren'dorei, I would have too, but it's what we have to work with now and it's unlikely that Blizzard will add another Thalassian race to the Alliance.
    It would be cool for Silver Covenant to start inviting void elves into their ranks.

  14. #23174
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Lol, a zealot who sleeps with a void elf, condemns Xe'ra after her death, supports Anduin's peaceful policy, and is friendly towards the forsaken and mages.
    He's a zealot in his utter devotion to the Light. He is lightforged and Blizzard have been hinting that the Light isn't this "purely good" force for some time. It might be time to put that to the test. With this in mind, it makes sense for the Alliance to be the ones who represent this "zealous" view of the Light. Makes the faction actually interesting, by enhancing the story of "hang on, the Light isn't so good after all."

    And in comparison to the other Horde commander, he is certainly a zealot. That's good. We need more of that within the Alliance, to stop this "holy white knight" thing which is another factor to the Alliance being quite the bland faction.
    We've got Void Elves, Dark Irons, Worgen...use them to their fullest.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-29 at 10:02 PM.

  15. #23175
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    It's very possible, that the Arcane Highborne could take up a more active role - the last time the Night Elves as a whole, truly prospered was under leadership of an Arcane wielder (although said arcane wielder also brought about their own ruin as well.)
    Highborne towers and buildings in and around Darkshore could be a way of a force-field being conjured by the Shen'dralar which protects the Night Elves' new capital which could be Mathystra.

    I think, if the Highborne play an active role, Hyjal isn't the best location for them, due to it being very Druidic - it's possible that the Highborne conjure and rebuild the ancient city of Mathystra and this is where the Night Elf civillians choose to live. This also follows on from the Battle for Darkshore, which I think, needs to have some sort of in-game conclusion. A 40 seconds cinematic isn't cutting it for me and the fact that it swaps between being controlled by the Forsaken, then the Night Elves...nah, if you want that, you've got the Bronze Dragons and Chromie Time.

    Or - due to Maiev and the Wardens returning, could this be a return to the Night Elven Wardens holding more of a presence? Maiev is relentless when angered...I mean, Tyrande + Night Warrior isn't a pretty thing, but Maiev + Night Warrior...I reckon Sylvanas would be doing her utmost to stay well clear of Maiev, if she was the Night Warrior.
    I'd find it interesting to see the Highborne take a more active role in the rebuilding of Night Elf society. From the Arcandor storyline, we can see that arcane and nature combined can produce rather wondrous results.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    It would be cool for Silver Covenant to start inviting void elves into their ranks.
    Agreed. I also wouldn't mind seeing members of the Silver Covenant actively pursuing study of the void and becoming Ren'dorei. It would be an example of Quel'dorei actually becoming Ren'dorei.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-01-29 at 10:19 PM.

  16. #23176
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I'd find it interesting to see the Highborne take a more active role in the rebuilding of Night Elf society. From the Arcandor storyline, we can see that arcane and nature combined can produce rather wondrous results.
    Well the latter is a story that doesn't involve the Darnassian-based Night Elves under the law of Tyrande and Malfurion.
    During the War of Thorns, when the Highborne arrived, they were taken aback when the Sentinels and Druids were cheering for them.

    This does suggest, that those within the Alliance have been facing uneasy acceptance, even after all this time.

    I think it would be one branch too far (pun intended), for the Highborne to start dwelling and using the arcane, so close to the Well of Eternity. The Highborne story could be the development from the Battle for Darkshore, where most of the civilians go and live as they could view the Highborne as being the ones who have the means to get them out of trouble, when and if needed. It could make both Maiev and Shandris unhappy, but the public view is that the Highborne wield magic that can save them.
    I wouldn't say the public become disillusioned by Tyrande and Malfurion, but this could be where we see far more Night Elves taking up the Arcane again and far more are becoming Magi.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-29 at 10:23 PM.

  17. #23177
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Well the latter is a story that doesn't involve the Darnassian-based Night Elves under the law of Tyrande and Malfurion.
    During the War of Thorns, when the Highborne arrived, they were taken aback when the Sentinels and Druids were cheering for them.

    This does suggest, that those within the Alliance have been facing uneasy acceptance, even after all this time.

    I think it would be one branch too far (pun intended), for the Highborne to start dwelling and using the arcane, so close to the Well of Eternity. The Highborne story could be the development from the Battle for Darkshore, where most of the civilians go and live as they could view the Highborne as being the ones who have the means to get them out of trouble, when and if needed. It could make both Maiev and Shandris unhappy, but the public view is that the Highborne wield magic that can save them.
    I wouldn't say the public become disillusioned by Tyrande and Malfurion, but this could be where we see far more Night Elves taking up the Arcane again and far more are becoming Magi.
    I don't really see Hyjal being developed in-game as anything since it's used in the Cataclysm leveling experience. There's not really any place to put a city there without removing something, and the area around the Well of Eternity isn't exactly large. A city would require that entire little valley to be completely filled and that would throw a wrench into the Cata experience.

    My guess is we won't see a new capital for Night Elves or Forsaken added to the game. Blizzard seems to want to stuff us into Stormwind and Orgrimmar most of the time. Heck... Darnassus, Exodar, Thunderbluff and Silvermoon don't have Barbershops... nevermind transmog and void storage NPCs. Blizzard can't even be bothered to make token efforts to give players a reason to visit capitals other than SW/Org or capital of xpac du jour. It truly baffles me that Silvermoon of all places doesnt have a barber or a transmog NPC!!!

  18. #23178
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    It's fine to have an opinion, or to speculate about things that could be done to bring about a desired result, but I prefer to put my efforts towards things that actually have a realistic chance of happening. Taking Silvermoon and/or Suramar away from the Horde just isn't realistic. So to affect actual change, I focus on things that are within the realm of possibility.
    What's the point? We don't work for them? I say speculate and share your opinions and views on everything, don't limit or restrict. I use to do what you did, but blizzard when they do things, are not limited by what our impressions are, nor are they limited by what they have done before, this is why they can do new things, while we sit here and speculate only based on what we have seen.

    What's the point in criticising and fighting each other over speculations we don't view as realistic or rather as likely to be implemented? if you feel drastic change needs to be done, why play it down to something that is manageable , like you are trying to appeal to some court or appease squabbling children/ Sometimes you just need to do what needs to be done, whether it's controversial or the kids argue, you need to be able to see ahead and make the tough choices whether to correct mistakes or create new avenues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    The devs aren't going to change Blood Elves and/or Nightborne just to make the Alliance look better. This is a path that leads nowhere and any efforts made towards pushing for this are essentially a dead end.
    i can't know that, nor can you. However, i don't think it's wise to make suggestions or have desires that only seem likely. Since we can 't determine what's likely, and the people who make the program change the gaol posts all the time.

    We should never be afraid to say the things we like, and not fear community retribution either. I am not going to turn away from this just because it seems unlikely or some don't like it. I feel something drastic needs to happen to steer this ship right, and devs shouldn't be afraid to do it.

    Certainly players shouldn't be afraid to make creative suggestions no matter how unrealistic they appear.. my point is, that you and i cannot really determine what is realistic or possible, don't let that limit you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    The devs might add more customization options, class options, and lore, to reinforce that Void Elves are the Alliance High Elves by showing in-game questlines and NPC dialogues/interactions detailing the why's of this decision by the former Quel'dorei. This is the path I support now. It would take the Alliance High Elves out of their "stasis chamber" and allow them to move forward in story development. I do understand that those seeking High Elves would have preferred a different path than the Ren'dorei, I would have too, but it's what we have to work with now and it's unlikely that Blizzard will add another Thalassian race to the Alliance.
    I will likely support everything they do, but there are some things I feel would have a larger impact than others. ultimately it is for them to decide, it is their game, if they want it to role out successfully they need to make changes that ensure this happens.. whether they are revolutionary... like removing factions, or expanding them or going the traditional way, doubling down on the original alliance and horde fantasies, however they see fit. If they get it wrong, they will lose this cash cow, if they get it right, they could see it resurge.

    It would be ironical if this is the key, but they ignore it because I suggest it.

    However this is not to criticise your suggestions. Would you believe me if I told you I like what you are writing here, I do. I do believe what I am suggesting would be better and more effective, in getting the job done, but I would also like what you are asking for. It isn't as good as high elves proper, but it's something, and is certainly better than the current state of affairs. But I firmly believe, blizzard shouldn't give compromised solutions, but should go all out. They went all out of the horde before, they need to go all out for the alliance, and use the experience they have gathered to make it even better this time round for the franchise than it was the last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    The devs might add more customization options and lore to reinforce the fact that the Shen'dralar (Highborne) did return to Night Elf society. I support this path as well. More options are always welcome and it's a fact, though oft overlooked, that some Highborne were accepted back into Night Elf society, which is why they have mages now. The Night Elf story could see the Night Elf people looking to the arcane once again as they desperately try to rebuild their society after the devastation of Teldrassil. I believe that's well within the realm of things the devs might be willing to explore. It wouldn't mean a forsaking of the Night Elf focus on nature themes, but the arcane themes could see a bit more prominence alongside them.
    i am all for this too. I think there is a treasure trove for the alliance in letting the kaldorei fully shine in all their facets, not just as forest hunters, but as pre-sundering civilization great arcane wielders, powerful combat Moonguard mages, bad ass anti hero Illidari (loved the Cata demon hunters we met in felwood and blasted lands, now that was cool) in addition to more sides of the druids we haven't seen and especially expanding the priesthood, we haven't seen the caster , temple side of the priesthood yet, and they haven't fleshed out the whole "stars " thing, properly linking in the arcane origin, the Well of Eternity, Elune, magecraft amongst the night elves with its unique star and moon magic theme which is nicely different form your typical Kirin'tor mage, there is so much diversity in that race, with some amazing avenues for a great fantasy, underutilised.

    whether it's walking trees or powerful ancient magi that can call down stars and wonders untold, like their lore says, we can have breath taking things for the night elves whether you visit their pre-sundering groups or long vigil groups whether you go to their forest or their cities, it can be a very special magical elven affair almost alien to the usual human like civilization we have seen humans and Thalassians involved with. But this is how they first set them up, it has potential.

    The bottom line are they willing to make alliance races shine. the night elves certainly have great material to use, unique to Warcraft and a source of magical wonder in both the arcane and nature, and that mysterious moon goddess who seems to be bathed in arcane, but also light and void and touches the nature world too, through her son Cenarius who is probably the reason why night elven druidism has arcane elements of moon and star magic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    The devs have previously seemed reluctant to outright remove the faction barrier, but I have a feeling it's inevitable to some degree. Just like mercenary mode for pvp, I believe it's possible that some sort of pve version of that could come about, if only due to the fact that WoW is an old game and there are only so many people who will play the game now. New players are few and far between, and old players sometimes don't return. Assuming the devs can't figure out a way to incentivize endgame progression on the Alliance, then only recourse I can see for them is to allow cross-faction grouping in some way. The two factions are integral to the foundation of wow, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for flexibility.
    This is what I am saying, i have argued more for removing faction barriers than tightening them, simply because of the direction things are going. This suggestion i have made is entirely based on blizzards desire to restore the what Warcraft is all about. They are the ones that claim if the factions go, we lose the heart of Warcraft, so, in order to fix that heart, they need to bring the alliance stuff that is on the horde back over to the alliance, which is remove it from the horde's blood elves and Nightborne , take it to the alliance, and build the horde's remaining blood elves and Nightborne something cool but different. bolster the core horde races for what they are, but make it cool and attractive too. And bolster the alliance for the assets it has.


    This is how you fix the core, if that is what you want to do. There is a charm about the original Warcraft core, and if they don't want to resign it to the history books, it will take the sort of actions i am suggesting to properly address it. Otherwise, they must go along the lines Beloren keeps suggesting.

    I am not a fan of the factions, not with wow the way it is now, my first option would be for them to go, but if you are going to keep them, then they need to do something more along the lines of what I've been saying to make it good, sound and relative.

    I keep telling others like MyWholeLifeIsThunder, what I have suggested is not the only way to go about doing things. I see and know this, i realise this, but for healing Warcraft, restoring it's heart/core and making it the best for what it use to be about, this is what they need to do.

    Blizzard must decide whether to have confidence in the original vision and heart of Warcraft or to change it. If they change it, then change it well, if they keep the core, then stop the homogenising, and dithering, do a good job and fix it right.

    but it's not true to say they can't fix it, that's just a lie, they can, they may just not be willing to.. and if they don't want the horde to lose the high elf stuff so bad, then they should press on ahead with changing the whole concept. But they must make the decision. if it's good, fans will love it, whichever direction they go. If they go the Warcraft core route, it will draw back a lot of their base crowd that left ,classic is a perfect example that that old concept of Warcraft is popular, have retail emulate that by letting the alliance actually be the alliance and the horde be the horde, with no theme mixing, then watch the sparks light a fire that ignites the rusty engine, especially if you do a good job.. there is no reason why people can't love the horde for being the horde and having orcs, trolls and tauren etc, and love a non-high elven version of blood elves and a non-kaldorei civilization version of Nightborne. Just be brave.

  19. #23179
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I keep telling others like MyWholeLifeIsThunder, what I have suggested is not the only way to go about doing things. I see and know this, i realise this, but for healing Warcraft, restoring it's heart/core and making it the best for what it use to be about, this is what they need to do.
    And you simply keep disregarding when people point out how it would negatively impact what has been Horde identity for 15 years.

    Even before any consideration if it would work -it wouldn't- the utter disregard for all the people that enjoy that elven identity, and have for the last 15 years, as part of the Horde is of no concern to you, and again, unconscionable. And you fail to realize that.

    Cause again, you want to take away 15 years of an identity as part of the Horde because you believe it would "fix" WoW. And as I said, I'm done humoring that as a serious discussion. And it's a shame the thread about High Elves has devolved into this nonsense you keep peddling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I must admit... if Human males had a "lean body" option... I would actually make one.
    TBH a lot of people play elves because humans in WoW are too bulky; if we had leaner humans -let's say Dalaran humans since they also have another theme and flavor- that allowed you to make *prettier* characters, they would be the most popular race.

    A huge misconception Ravenmoon has with aesthetics is that having the whole elven identity on the alliance would do little in terms of player choice, when it's aesthetics what people choose;

    RN all that's keeping VE's from being the most popular race is 1, the lack of traditional hair colors, and 2, the rep gating. Before the Warcraft Realm data was discuntinued, VE's were surpassing even worgen in terms of popularity, and that was before the new skin tones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The first time Blizzard brought the "Arcane Elf" thing to the Alliance in any real format, where players could play it, was with Night Elf Mages in 2011 and even then, they didn't really explore it, aside from in Feralas, Azshara and Felwood, with a few scattered quest NPC's.

    Before that, it was the Horde Blood Elves that truly commanded the "Arcane Elf" scene, that players could also pick. Hell, my main alt in WoTLK was a Blood Elf Arcane Mage and it felt really good to play...using the Sunreaver Tabard (although, I didn't have the Sunreaver Mounts, I did use the Swift Red Hawkstrider and the Magnificent Flying Carpet.)
    Despite it's flaws, TBC Eversong Woods does an excellent job of showcasing the Sin'dorei's mastery of the Arcane. That has been shown to be improving every single step with most of Silvermoon's Magister involved with Blood and Fire Magics.
    Exactly; before Cata, there was a clear demarcation between Arcane Elves on the Horde, and Nature Elves on the Alliance. I am personally 100% on board with lessening faction dichotomy, thus allowing certain themes to be shared and overlap. But if you are going to claim some sort of traditionalism argument for a golden age of "What Warcraft Should Be" Then that does not entail Arcane/Magical Elves on the Alliance whatsoever.

    Which again, since enforced faction dichotomy that dumb down the setting, and removes in universe agency of groups to choose their politics is just asinine, it's moot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Well said. I think @ravenmoon is a little too demanding with his wishes for the lore development. I think we should adopt a more subtle approach. First of all, as @Tanaria and @MyWholeLifeIsThunder have said, Silvermoon came out along with Exodar in TBC. It is practically a Vanilla expac if you pair the 3 first ones, Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK. It is not a good idea, and I don't think the devs are planning, to remove Silvermoon from Horde, or anything related to that. Same with Nightborne. It was a clear decision to place them in the Horde, and their home is Suramar so naturally Nightborne's starting zone is Suramar, but new players cannot quest in it. Both Allies and Hordies have the opportunity to quest in and experience Suramar when they do the Legion questline for it

    So I will pile up a small list of ''Do's'' and Don't's:

    Do:
    Give Mt Hyjal to Night elves (as will probably happen)
    Give Telogrus rift or Allerian Stronghold development with a Void elf capital and starting quest zone
    Give High elven features to Void elves, such as hairstyles and light hair colours
    Give arcane tattoos and glowing lims to Night elves when Core Races are looked into again
    Give Dark Ranger features to Blood elves such as glowing red eyes, pale skin etc
    Give Sun'Layn features to Blood elves such as fangs, vampire makeup, in-combat wings
    Give better customization to Nightborne such as skins, faces, and hairstyles (probs already underway)

    Don't:
    Don't take Silvermoon from Blood elves
    Don't take Suramar from Nightborne

    PS: See how tiny that Don't list is guys? Smile and consider how close we all are to wanting similar things happening. All that needs doing is putting aside some views, as the devs appear to not agree with these views anyways.
    The problem is that Ravenmoon's proposal is based on hardly rational or fair premises, you really can't reach a middle ground or compromise with someone who thinks elven identity is intrinsically alliance and should not be part of the Horde.

    You can't have a rational discussion when one side's premise is to literally take away 15 years of BE identity because somehow that will "fix" the game.

  20. #23180
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Lol, a zealot who sleeps with a void elf, condemns Xe'ra after her death, supports Anduin's peaceful policy, and is friendly towards the forsaken and mages.
    he says he seeks to bring former Alliance of Lordaeron holdings into the Alliance - I could see him condemning the Argent Crusade for their inaction in BFA and then invading Hearthglen and Eastweald with the help of Alleria

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    TBH a lot of people play elves because humans in WoW are too bulky; if we had leaner humans -let's say Dalaran humans since they also have another theme and flavor- that allowed you to make *prettier* characters, they would be the most popular race.
    Alteraci Humans for the Horde
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

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