1. #23221
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I share you sentiments. As much as there's likely a significant swathe of players who'd appreciate carbon copy Blood Elves on the Alliance, I don't think it would actually cause a noticeable shift in population or Alliance endgame progression engagement. I mean we're more than half way there already in regards to visual similarities between Void and Blood Elves and no sigh of such shift has occurred yet.

    Still I'm curious what others think. I'm also curious about the pros and cons of such a move by Blizzard and the potential fallout it could cause.
    Indeed. A big issue is that a lot of BElf players just don't give a crap about the Alliance or actively dislike it lol.

  2. #23222
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I have said for a long time that even if the Alliance gets literal BE options, we wouldn't see a massive exodus of BE players.

    The problem with the narrative that BE players are "held hostage" by the Horde is simplistic and infantalizing; do people really think that swaths of BE players that actually care about progression will flock to the alliance if they got to be the same model?

    There's a big blind spot in the discussions about making the alliance appealing; as long as the alliance is just lesser in terms of meta progression, we won't be seeing any major high end population shifts. We will see just more people roleplaying high elves.
    I said that, a few 100 pages back. in response to those who felt that plyaable high elves would ruin the horde, they were just so keen to prevent the alliance getting the blood elf model, they lost perspective and didn't think.

    The horde will not collapse if alliance get high elves, I keep saying that, it won't, if blizzard give high elves in a cool and exciting way - emphasis on the cool and exciting way, show it up, make it good, enviable - make the alliance the only place ti experience that very alliance theme the elves have.. then it will draw just enough players over, but won't jeopardise the horde, especially if you keep the models on the horde.

    It is is image you are changing.. the alliance n=image needs to be improved drastically in the population. The population needs to be excited about playing the alliance without necessarily hating the horde. The most effective way to do this is the Return of the High elves and the Rise of the Kaldorei, because elves make the alliance lot most excited, and it's what they yearn for the most - it also suits them very well in the Warcraft universe because it was built around humans/elves/dwarves being one way, and orcs, goblins/trolls being another. This is the foundation all the lore and world has been spun around.. it's like it's hard wired.


    Sure you can change that, but it wont' be the same Warcraft, you'd break that Warcraft. Sure the new one could be good too for what it is, but it's going to be something different. The Klingons and the federation in star trek Next generation were allies afterall, star trek didn't fall apart - but star trek WAS NOT A GAME that had systems and a war mode based on two opposing themes (factions) at constant war with each other.

    Do you know how many times I have suggested blizzard remove the faction limitation, let orcs and humans mesh, or create more factions, go back to individual race focus.. do you know what there response is every time? This wouldn't be Warcraft, Warcraft is alliance vs horde - the core of the RTs, the human like races vs the orcs.

    Well if they want that properly, they need to fix what's going on.

  3. #23223
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You know i respect that you feel that, I know others think that this is the case, but I'm not convinced it is sufficient. Racials is just one part of the argument, there are other sides, and racials matter to certain populations not everyone. Besides I think they are in a good place, don't touch them. There are other reasons and better solutions for this problem as I mentioned bove, but that's my opinion. I disagree with you.
    what happened with the covenants is a clear sign that people will go where they have more dps.

  4. #23224
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post

    You claim to be a pro-High elfer Thunder, but you seem to be more interested in disagreeing with us and attempting to explain why our ideas will not work, but I have yet to see a post from you so far that makes any suggestions. All I have seen you do here in several of your posts is just bash @ravenmoon and call him names. We get it you don't agree with him, we do not agree with some of his ideas either, but instead of just bashing ravenmoon and telling us that our ideas will not work, why don't you try to propose some ideas for a change then?
    Lol sometimes I forget we are not the same 5 people argument and that new people arrive here! Honestly the last few weeks of conversation are really not representative of the usual discourse, not my personal contributions. That aside, I'm sorry if it comes across as some sort of persecution against Ravenmoon, but I will never in good conscience agree with a premise that would take away 15 years of identity of a faction, and that is beside the belief it wouldn't even work.

    That's my major issue with his premise and I can't possible see it as a good idea.

    As for Ideas themselves, basically, I don't care for enforced faction dichotomy, and I would rather there be an overlap, but some small things that would set HE and BE aside; a good example of these are Alleria's Ranger Aesthetics. They come across as a time capsule to a pre third war era of Ranger, which could be reclaimed by her followers or through Quel'danil High Elves. The whole warpaint/braids/feathers, a more nature based approach contrasting to the more arcane path of the BE's.







    Taking into account the VE hairstyles, adding alternative meshes to the tentacles as braids could work wonderfully for that aesthetic.

    As for Hair colors themselves, I'd go for less saturated colors, so that they also fit thematically with VE





    And in terms of hairstyles, to further create that small cultural distinction, to add human hairstyles on VE's rather than BE ones -overall on the context to give AR more hairstyles, mostly from the CR-



    So overall for High Elves I would expand that Aesthetic we see on Alleria but unused on playable characters, with Braids, Feathers and Warpaint. It would give High Elves -through VE models- a unique flavor not presently seen in game.

    High Elves have so much potential, even as a part of VE's, but yeah, I just won't say that taking away 15 years of elven identity on the Horde is a good idea, and it really irks me that some people would be so cavalier about the impact that would cause on a lot of other's experience for their own confort.
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2021-01-31 at 09:51 PM.

  5. #23225
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Indeed. A big issue is that a lot of BElf players just don't give a crap about the Alliance or actively dislike it lol.
    In my experience a lot of BElf players don't really give a crap about a lot of stuff, wow stopped being interesting lore wise or making sense a long tiem ago, for various reasons

    mMost of htese stem from the blood leves going horde but arne't limited to this.. a lot of people i know play blood elves because they were the only models they could stand.

    they use to be exciteda bout the lore too, and htey ddin't lik or agree with the whole faction swapping of the elves, but the game > than the lore.

    THere are a lot of players who don't care at all who Silvermoon belongs to, so your predictions of terrible backlash are unconvincing to me.


    There is maybe around a quarter of the Belf population that cares about such things, a good deal of them are alliance players who've moved over because the alliance is dull and no one wants to stay, some of those are former alliance lovers, that just simply love the blood elves because of their high elf fantasy and will follow them wherever they go.

    A game gets exciting when it's gameplay is fun, but it's presentation is also cool. there are still the vast majority of people who play this game because they love the fantasy theme. they may not be interested in the lore right now, because it doesn't make sense on so many levels in so many departments. But you start fixing that and presenting it well, make a cool presentation for high elves like you did for blood leves, you will start drawing people not just back to the alliance but to the game and the lore.

    Use that opportunity to centre the horde correctly and drive a dynamic well proportioned and evenly themed story based on your roots almost like a second start, do it well, advertise it well, and you'll breathe new life into the wole project

    1. You'd get people who long since stopped caring or paying attention to the content and vibe of the game get back into it.. This is your biggest asset, people are drawn to great stories, backed up by great scenes, graphics and in a way they can understand, it is an asset to use not a liability to be tossed aside - just bear in mind, that it wo n't mean much if your game isn't fun, so you have to make sure
    2. You will get people crazy about the alliance and they'll play it, but they won't abandon the horde either, as the horde is cool. If blood elves swap fro that high elf state to proper bad boys, anti-hero types embracing the sort of ferocity TFT and TBC were framing them as, distancing from high elves, even if it meant moving out of Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and getting a kick ass city of their own elsewhere 1 or 2 expansions later, people will love it. Even if the high elves shine for the alliance for a little while.


    Do i know any of this for sure? No, I do not, I can't prove a word I've said, nor can any developer or senior exec, if you love a thing greatly and have worked on it , designed it all your life, you're going to get a knack and instinct for it, if your instincts were what originally put this product on the map, guess what, follow your gut.

    They strayed away from their original premise, and it's been down hill , there was a charm about the original, at the ned of the day, they have to look at what they have and decide for themselves, you and I arguing over it and discussing trying to prove one way or the other is immaterial, because we can't. We have our instinct and our desires, so we can only talk, and our discussions aren't always fair either some responses are driven by negative emotions and obscure what needs to be seen and done.

  6. #23226
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    As for Ideas themselves, basically, I don't care for enforced faction dichotomy, and I would rather there be an overlap, but some small things that would set HE and BE aside; a good example of these are Alleria's Ranger Aesthetics. They come across as a time capsule to a pre third war era of Ranger, which could be reclaimed by her followers or through Quel'danil High Elves. The whole warpaint/braids/feathers, a more nature based approach contrasting to the more arcane path of the BE's.
    Great! It's lovely to get ideas from everyone and I can clearly see there are agreements across all of us. I apologise if I misunderstood you, I just felt that we are not achieving much by just arguing with ravenmoon. Besides, some of his ideas are worth keeping in mind, ofcourse we will not all be able to agree with everything, and the devs have the final say. But it would be nice to put differences aside here and there and look at what we agree on, which in my opinion is much more than our disagreements.

  7. #23227
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Great! It's lovely to get ideas from everyone and I can clearly see there are agreements across all of us. I apologise if I misunderstood you, I just felt that we are not achieving much by just arguing with ravenmoon. Besides, some of his ideas are worth keeping in mind, ofcourse we will not all be able to agree with everything, and the devs have the final say. But it would be nice to put differences aside here and there and look at what we agree on, which in my opinion is much more than our disagreements.
    And I do agree with the sentiment, but I really can't get past his cavalier attitude to what his premise entails.

    I feel we have been requesting playable High Elves on the alliance for so long, asking to share with people unwilling to, that now seeing someone ostensibly on the pro HE side asking for the Horde and BE's to be stripped for 15 years of their identity goes against the ethos of what we have been striving for.

    And Ravenmoon himself has said he doesn't even particularly care about HE's, so it also vexes me he is using this thread to spout his rhetoric that has less to do with High Elves and their potential and more with enforcing dichotomy so that the alliance has all even themes.

  8. #23228
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Great! It's lovely to get ideas from everyone and I can clearly see there are agreements across all of us. I apologise if I misunderstood you, I just felt that we are not achieving much by just arguing with ravenmoon. Besides, some of his ideas are worth keeping in mind, ofcourse we will not all be able to agree with everything, and the devs have the final say. But it would be nice to put differences aside here and there and look at what we agree on, which in my opinion is much more than our disagreements.
    Thunder is a supporter of High Elves for the Alliance, just not at the expense of Horde losing Blood Elves/Silvermoon and Nightborne/Suramar. I feel the same as he does. The Horde doesn't need to lose anything for the Alliance to gain their High Elves. With that said, since Void Elves were added, and now with customization being the focus rather than allied races, it seems we'll have to accept Alliance High Elves via Void Elf customization (just as we must accept Wildhammer via Dwarf customization).

    With that in mind, I try to advocate for options that will work to fulfill the Alliance High Elf fantasy in addition to options that also lean more into the Void aspect of the Ren'dorei. I'd also dearly love if the story in-game reflected the Alliance High Elf story actually moving forward and having them officially join the Ren'dorei so that the in-game narrative supports the idea that Void Elves truly are the Alliance High Elves.

    I think the biggest issue with Raven's ideas is that he's trying to turn the clock back. That just won't work imo. Time marches ever forward and the game evolves as a result. The Horde has changed drastically from its roots in the RTS and Vanilla, and trying to change it back to that just isn't something I think Blizzard is willing to do.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-01-31 at 10:24 PM.

  9. #23229
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Lol sometimes I forget we are not the same 5 people argument and that new people arrive here! Honestly the last few weeks of conversation are really not representative of the usual discourse, not my personal contributions. That aside, I'm sorry if it comes across as some sort of persecution against Ravenmoon, but I will never in good conscience agree with a premise that would take away 15 years of identity of a faction, and that is beside the belief it wouldn't even work.

    That's my major issue with his premise and I can't possible see it as a good idea.

    As for Ideas themselves, basically, I don't care for enforced faction dichotomy, and I would rather there be an overlap, but some small things that would set HE and BE aside; a good example of these are Alleria's Ranger Aesthetics. They come across as a time capsule to a pre third war era of Ranger, which could be reclaimed by her followers or through Quel'danil High Elves. The whole warpaint/braids/feathers, a more nature based approach contrasting to the more arcane path of the BE's.
    The problem is it doesn't matter if it's 2 years or 20 years of Belves in the horde, Belf /Nightborne simply don't match or fit the rest of the horde. They never have.. to any new player new to warcraft who gets to experience the whole game. It's so easy to see - Trolls, Tauren, Orcs, Goblins, Pandas, Vulpera even forsaken they're not like these a lot - however night elves, high elves, humans, dwarves, gnomes, Draenei - it's very easy to see.

    The newbie will quickly soon realise that blood elves and Nightborne are very much like the alliance races, and when they check their lore, they'll see high elves and night elves, including Highborne have been in the alliance a lot longer, and the blood elves and Nightborne are very much like them essentially them but signed up to the red banner. With them in it, the horde don't have a unified culture or identity a uniqueness that is worth preserving I might add or restoring/ They have a part horde/part alliance hybrid



    So it doesn't matter if this has been the case for 15 years, it still isn't feeling horde - what it can be articulated as is the alliance on the horde. And what it does is it simply proves to everyone that if you pick the horde, you get better than what's on the alliance.

    It really is that simple. I come on, I play the game, The blood elves are prettier humans, have nicer cities, higher civilization, higher magic, all the things central to the alliance, that the alliance is known for and attractive for are done better on the horde through the blood elves and the Nightborne - why would I be inclined to play the alliance?

    i get my white knight, my Legolas, my shining armour, my good guy, my human type - and the version on the horde is better, it looks better, it's presented cooler... i have no reason to go to the alliance. The horde is doing the alliance better than the alliance.

    If you can't see this, then you're being stubborn and ignoring the issue ( i suspect because you don't want things to change) but if you are going to fix the factions, fix the alliance, this is what needs to change.



    The change can come by the alliance simply having a better elf city, better elf focus in the narrative going forward, and not changing anything about the horde.. horde keep Quel'thalas and Suramar etc, night elves get a new nicer city, high elves come in style, alongside void elves and get something amazing... it will solve the "attraction" issue above, but it won't solve the identity issue.

    Now is identity an issue? not if you are okay with the horde having alliance type races and themes in it. It's not so bad is it, we've had it for 15 years, and the world hasn't ended. It isn't, if I like alliance type things but want to play the horde, the blood elves and Nightborne are a refuge for me - however, knowing htis doesn't change that the horde having a partial alliance identity on it confuses it. Is The dev must decide whether the horde should be unique from the alliance... or not.

    There are dangers to living things as they are, the factions just end up feeling a lot more the same, they have done for nearly 15 years, and this has gotten worse, this side of it is not good, even if it's gone on for 15 years.. and just because it's gone on for 15 years, doesn't mean it should continue.. You must decide whether it is worth continuing with it or not.

    M opinion is irrelevant, if you want the original charm of Warcraft, do not continue with it, change it. If you want that eroded, the only way further is further faction mixing, you'll end up like ESO/Wildstar type systems, this isn't necessarily bad, it's just not the original Warcraft which drew its crowd. And still has a charm and uniqueness the devs have professed is worth keeping.

  10. #23230
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Thunder is a supporter of High Elves for the Alliance, just not at the expense of Horde losing Blood Elves/Silvermoon and Nightborne/Suramar. I feel the same as he does. The Horde doesn't need to lose anything for the Alliance to gain their High Elves. With that said, since Void Elves were added, and now with customization being the focus rather than allied races, it seems we'll have to accept Alliance High Elves via Void Elf customization (just as we must accept Wildhammer via Dwarf customization).

    With that in mind, I try to advocate for options that will work to fulfill the Alliance High Elf fantasy in addition to options that also lean more into the Void aspect of the Ren'dorei. I'd also dearly love if the story in-game reflected the Alliance High Elf story actually moving forward and having them officially join the Ren'dorei so that the in-game narrative supports the idea that Void Elves truly are the Alliance High Elves.
    Indeed, in much ways like now Dwarves include Bronzebeard and Wildhammer, VE's can also approach High Elves, at least from a culturally relevant standpoint if not a wholly encompassing one -cause VE's do kinda stand anathema to light worship itself-

    Nonetheless, it does open the opportunity to High Elves and Void Elves to start working together, specially when their leaders are sisters. Even if we won't most likely ever get the "full" High Elf experience, we can get how they are a continued presence on the world, and how they interact with Void Elves as a political entity and sister group.

    And of course, we could get more focus on High Elves that actively choose to start using void, and see other old HE characters return as active members of the VE following Alleria's path.

    So basically, Void Elves would become compromised of a Void using group of both Blood Elves and High Elves, with High Elves as groups -Silver Covenant for example- still being represented alongside them -like non Worgen Gilnean-

    Then is just about customization options that reflect High Elven identity that can also be made part of the VE one, for example, warpaint and braids like Alleria, but with more VE motifs.



    And more motifs that skirt and blend the line between regular Thalassian and VE



  11. #23231
    I'm always impressed and pleased when I see your work ^_^

  12. #23232
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I'm always impressed and pleased when I see your work ^_^
    Thank you!

  13. #23233
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Thunder is a supporter of High Elves for the Alliance, just not at the expense of Horde losing Blood Elves/Silvermoon and Nightborne/Suramar. I feel the same as he does. The Horde doesn't need to lose anything for the Alliance to gain their High Elves. With that said, since Void Elves were added, and now with customization being the focus rather than allied races, it seems we'll have to accept Alliance High Elves via Void Elf customization (just as we must accept Wildhammer via Dwarf customization).

    With that in mind, I try to advocate for options that will work to fulfill that fantasy in addition to options that also lean more into the Void aspect of the Ren'dorei. I'd also dearly love if the story in-game reflected the Alliance High Elf story actually moving forward and having them officially join the Ren'dorei so that the in-game narrative supports the idea that Void Elves truly are the Alliance High Elves.

    I think the biggest issue with Raven's ideas is that he's trying to turn the clock back. That just won't work imo. Time marches ever forward and the game evolves as a result. The Horde has changed drastically from its roots in the RTS and Vanilla, and trying to change it back to that just isn't something I think Blizzard is willing to do.
    And here I disagree sadly. But I hope you understand it is not motivated by horde hate, or horde dislike or some warped racist ideology or any nonsense like that. I'm afraid you'd have to read my response to thunder a few replies up where I expand on this.


    I just have a different view of what it will take to fix the crises. That's all, I think making the alliance elves nicer isn't enough to get the job done , but in addition to that the horde identity issues and the faction state wouldn't be fixed by this.

    i discuss in my reply to Thunder whether identity is an issue, and what it means. some of the options I feel is before blizzard on the matter. I do point out that keeping this as they are isn't the worse thing, and point out the benefits I feel the project stands to gain by restoring the uniqueness of the factions and homing down on those, developing them separately. They could go the other way too, more integration of themes, more elf/alliance stuff on the horde - this isn't necessarily a mistake, and it could also work out well if they make the effort to, I'm just saying it will cause this to cease to be the Warcraft that charmed so many people. Not saying it can't be good. It will be different.

    WC3 did do something different, it didn't swap alliance and horde races over to each other, but it did introduce two new factions, which they later removed.. so no one is saying new can't be good. i have argued more for breaking down faction barriers than against it, but both have their merits and charm.


    But if you wanna keep Warcraft in that charm, you have to do more than just make the alliance better with elf stuff , you have to remove high elf stuff and night elf stuff from its own elves and make them different.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Thank you!
    I am too, your art work has always been impressive. Do you remember me telling you that a few years ago? I still am. Even if I disagree with you on some matters.

  14. #23234
    The problem with your suggestion, as I see it, is that you aren't taking into account how your proposals would alienate Horde players who like their Blood Elf and Nightborne themes exactly as they are. Those players should not have their game experience diminished just because the Alliance needs motivation in regards to endgame engagement. Alienating those players will not encourage them to swap to the Alliance but merely engender hostility towards Alliance players and Blizzard for taking such actions.

    It's why I don't believe Blizzard would ever seriously consider the type of drastic changes you propose. Ultimately this "crisis" can't be resolved by taking things away from the Horde just to give them to the Alliance. Pissing off one half of your customer base just to appease the other half is a lose lose situation and I am sure Blizzard sees it that way as well. At best Blizzard will improve existing things and add new things to make the Alliance more attractive, but they aren't going to take anything away from the Horde to achieve that goal.

    You may believe your ideas are the only answer that will work, but truthfully they would only serve to piss off the people you're trying to get to swap sides. The Alliance player base would be blamed for such changes and players would more likely quit the game than swap sides in such a situation. It won't work, and Blizzard will never do it. It's not in the interest of good business or good relations with their customers.

    Does the Alliance need a boost? Yes. But that boost can't come at the expense of Horde players. They are paying customers too and deserve to continue enjoying the content and themes they currently have access to.

  15. #23235
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    what happened with the covenants is a clear sign that people will go where they have more dps.
    True, very true,which is why you want that sort of thing balanced. Gameplay depends on these things a lot, if you favour one faction heavily, not only would it help force people back, but the gameplay becomes very unfair.

    I think you should want the play to be fair, regardless of what happens in the lore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    The problem with your suggestion, as I see it, is that you aren't taking into account how your proposals would alienate Horde players who like their Blood Elf and Nightborne themes exactly as they are. Those players should not have their game experience diminished just because the Alliance needs motivation in regards to endgame engagement. Alienating those players will not encourage them to swap to the Alliance but merely engender hostility towards Alliance players and Blizzard for taking such actions.
    I hear you, and I do understand that these players will be affected.. but I don't think that should stop anyone from making changes they feel are necessary and important, especially if they feel the end result down the line would be better for everyone, not just the alliance in the short but the horde in the long. It's worth suffering the wrath of some.

    And emotions change too, what sounds very bad based on negative hype can turn around once people experience it, and things you thought you might hate you could end up loving. In the least you might not like the belf and NElf themes on the horde changing at first, but they may need to, and you might end up liking that chagne.

    I know people who neither liked the Blood elves going horde, nor the Nightborne too and were very upset with that, but are not only fine with it now, they enjoy it. But if you ask them, they would tell you it would have been better for that not to happen, but they're okay with it and sitll enjoy the game.. For some it's diminished their experience, but they stil like it. Others

    As for me I'm in one of those groups somewhere. I hope you don't think I hate the alliance or the horde or the blood elves or anything like that. I already have the high elf civilization playable on the horde and the kaldorei civilization too, I have what I wanted, albeit it on the other faction and i enjoy them there. Every time I play round, I do get a strong feeling that it's weird and these themes would be much better a climate and setting if it was all on the alliance, and I also sometimes long for the blood elves to be bit more like the Illidari, like they were been set up in TFT when Belves joined Illidan - that edgier sexy/hot but bad boy/bitch sort of character.

    I think it would have been better, not just because i like it, but because it offers something different from what's already on the alliance and isn't taking that theme... it seems I am more eloquent analysing the games problems and coming up with solutions than i am expressing my feelings.

    The current status quo isn't bad, it's okay, I want this to be great, more than okay, and i think the alliance themes on the horde are getting in the way, they either need to inch towards distinguishing hte factions more thematically or total blend. An go hard on which ever option.

    We're talking about improvements here, that would solve some bad of the game issues like alliance depletion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    It's why I don't believe Blizzard would ever seriously consider the type of drastic changes you propose. Ultimately this "crisis" can't be resolved by taking things away from the Horde just to give them to the Alliance. Pissing off one half of your customer base just to appease the other half is a lose lose situation and I am sure Blizzard sees it that way as well. At best Blizzard will improve existing things and add new things to make the Alliance more attractive, but they aren't going to take anything away from the Horde to achieve that goal.
    I respectfully disagree, maybe because I'm older now, but I was like you a year ago, advocating first option of no one has to suffer loss, but when a mistake happens, part of the consequences is some pain and loss to correct it, it is what needs to be done if you truly wan to fix it well or the best way. I remember asking the devs why do they have to nerf classes, why not buff everyone up to the few over powered specs, because no one likes nerfing. Which is true, do you know what they replied?

    It's exactly the same reasoning. No matter what you do, someone is going to feel hurt or not like, so you shouldn't focus on pleasing everyone or not offending anyone, resolve and be convicted over what you feel is the right thing and do it, it will pay off in the end even though some will be upset. If they didn't remove anything from the horde, and just bolstered the alliance well, there is going to be some backlash, some will not like it, horde fans who hate the alliance won't like it.

    But taking the high elves to the horde has done a lot of things, it's responsible for the constant alliance whining over them, and now the Nightborne, they don't do so for any other horde race, nor do the horde do so for any alliance race - the solution should have been seen a long time ago, high elve needed to be playable on the alliance too at least.

    however there are now many good reasons for playable high elves that could solve some of the issues.. however the issue of horde attraction and homogenising of themes or mixed theme, only one way to solve it, either remove it from the horde or make it not matter by making the factions indistinguishable

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    You may believe your ideas are the only answer that will work, but truthfully they would only serve to piss off the people you're trying to get to swap sides. The Alliance player base would be blamed for such changes and players would more likely quit the game than swap sides in such a situation. It won't work, and Blizzard will never do it. It's not in the interest of good business or good relations with their customers.

    Does the Alliance need a boost? Yes. But that boost can't come at the expense of Horde players. They are paying customers too and deserve to continue enjoying the content and themes they currently have access to.
    I also respectfully disagree, because this is not the first time it has happened, and I've seen how people react... a few get angry - most actually don't, but they will let you know one way or another how well they received it. if they receive it well you would see interest in the narrative nad the game spike, regardless of the bitter raging. Most of the bitter raging will die down, hot heads who rage quit, will actually come back once their heads have cooled, and they'll find out it's not so big a deal and the result of the operation might actually lead to things they enjoy.

    now I can't say for 100% certainty this is what will happen, afterall, in 2 years California could be under the sea or blizzard out of business or WoW 2 announced or any number of things could happen, even the expected behaviour change.

    But it's a fair bet.


    But we can agree to disagree on this, sometimes you need to cut the chord, even though it hurts, you need to do what it takes to save the child, and sometimes great improvements come with some measure of sacrifice. It is the way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Satan View Post
    Very happy with void and blood elves having blue eyes.
    Never thought I'd be agreeing with Satan, but I also like this change.

  16. #23236
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    You know ... High elves are in the Alliance because... their people is also in the Alliance.
    I mean those aren't on the Alliance
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  17. #23237
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Thank you!
    Wait. Thunder, are you Ramavatarama? The artist?

  18. #23238
    @ravenmoon and all alliance high elf hopefuls, look, what you are saying has a certain logic to it, and you may be 100% correct in your assessment, except for one premise you've entirely miscalculated that makes what you want have a 0% chance of happening.

    This is not the same Warcraft as 2004, and it's not the same blizzard. The focus has completely shifted. you did the same thing about the night elves, and you're not seeing they've moved a different direction. Also blizzard doesn't care anywhere as much like they did back in the original classic for if so much as a sneeze was out of place, they'd change an entire system. They won't do that anymore. Partly because they've got a lot of experience now and know not to over react, also the old guard are mostly all gone from the project, it's not their baby, they're their to make money, which means they'll do things that are expedient, and less likely to risk pissing off their crowd - even if it is necessary in the short term and would be much better later.

    It's really not about the long term anymore for a 16 year old+ project - I'm sorry, how much longer do you expect wow to be around? I wouldn't be surprised if a WoW2 is in the planning, and that's going to change a lot of things and re-draw a lot of lines that none of this is going to happen.

    If Warcraft was 2 years old, and the people that built it were the ones still working on the project then they would probably do something like that, or if not that, similar. But it's too big a risk that isn't all that necessary just to make a game top shape?

    Most of your changes are narrative orientated anyway, and wow's probably the lousiest franchise with narrative, it's lore is bad, face it, we may like the races and feeling because of nostalgia and because they're cool and have character, but they're extremely shallow, superficial and have little depth, plus every new instalment changes previous things, re-writes them, recasts them, it's all of the place.. it's clearly just a mechanism to make the adventure more palatable and fuel the roleplay fantasy.

    Compare wow's story telling to say Warhammer or star wars (take SWTOR for example), you realise how utterly shallow wow's races and characters are, but they are quite cool, and how lame the faction conflict and presentation is.

    Your solution might genuinely be what it takes to fix this, but you grossly over estimate the value and importance of such a thing. Ultimately we don't need high elves for wow to survive, don't even need factions, the devs are just as likely to go a totally different direction than the one you proposed that will ruffle a few feathers. Sure it would also excite a few , but am i the only one that feels Warcraft has really past that old alliance /horde set up and Ravenmoon either hasn't really realised it, or is stuck in the past about it, just like he was on the night elves?


    Your best chance for high elves is exactly what they've done, added skin tones to the void elves, and you'd probably get some hair colours, which I have recommended before, like platinum white, a couple of blondes and an orangey red.. The premise will likely be you're one of the high elves or blood elves that has been drawn to the ren'dorei to study the void, like the lot you saw in Telogrus rift, you are part of the faction, but like Alleria, your skin hasn't changed. That's it.
    high elves will continue to be sparse and few, like the Silver covenant and Dalaran residents, and they'd probably get tied into the void elves. I liked that idea you gave about a bonded partner, from the anime Uraboku - I liked that or the Shadowhunters parabatai bond - where a void elf and high elf pair up and the pairing stabislies the void elf by providing a tether of a loved one, it also increase their power as they can now use a lot more void without being lost to insanity, whereas the high elf can use a lot more light as the light reacts to the void. And you always see them in pairs - its novel, can you imagine when making a void elf character that you have to design 2 characters - one with void skin and one with high elf skin


    You are more likely to get something novel like that, than a big song and dance about high elves. WE already got that in TBC..soz. Wait for WoW 2 or a new warcraft single player for things to change - that would likely be followed up by a new cata-level world revamp for wow , it might as well be wow 2.

  19. #23239
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Wait. Thunder, are you Ramavatarama? The artist?
    Oh you didn't know? The guy is super talented and I've been a fan of his work for ages, despite me disagreeing greatly on some issues here on this board. A lot of these guys here are quite talented, and if you go back long enough I've agreed with them on many things and still do, main disagreement comes on the topic of elves - where I support the alliance for that racial group..

    From the way some of our discussions go, it may come across as I don't like them, but that isn't true at all -sure I might rage at their bias and point out what I see is going on, and it makes me unpopular, but I treat everyone the same, and it's really not personal with me... if I se something is this way, I'll say it and stand up for it, i won't turncoat because i want to make friends or idol worship someone - to me a true friend sticks to his convictions and I respect a person who isn't afraid to stand up for theirs, but also has the humility to change theirs when they realise they've been wrong. However i don't hate them because they don't even when i think they are - and I realise sometimes I can be wrong even when I have though I was right, the minute I realise I am wrong about something, I change my view.

    I've been told sometimes my dogged persistence makes me enemies or annoying, but it's just my character, it's hard to let go of something when I'm convinced I'm correct about it.. will fight my dearest friend on it, but I would never hate him over it ore even dislike him, though I might get annoyed at his responses and irritated.

    Same goes for how I react to MyWholeLifeIsThunder , Alanar, Combatbulter, Tanaria, all the horde leaning regulars here. The alliance voices are less enthusiastic on this board, so I tend to be noticed more these days than 10 years ago and I seem to have gotten a bit stuck on the cause of the elves, I don't particularly like the alliance that much more either, but I find value and charm in the original fantasy, and if it is going to be preserved, there is one sure way to do it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    @ravenmoon and all alliance high elf hopefuls, look, what you are saying has a certain logic to it, and you may be 100% correct in your assessment, except for one premise you've entirely miscalculated that makes what you want have a 0% chance of happening.

    This is not the same Warcraft as 2004, and it's not the same blizzard. The focus has completely shifted. you did the same thing about the night elves, and you're not seeing they've moved a different direction. Also blizzard doesn't care anywhere as much like they did back in the original classic for if so much as a sneeze was out of place, they'd change an entire system. They won't do that anymore. Partly because they've got a lot of experience now and know not to over react, also the old guard are mostly all gone from the project, it's not their baby, they're their to make money, which means they'll do things that are expedient, and less likely to risk pissing off their crowd - even if it is necessary in the short term and would be much better later.

    It's really not about the long term anymore for a 16 year old+ project - I'm sorry, how much longer do you expect wow to be around? I wouldn't be surprised if a WoW2 is in the planning, and that's going to change a lot of things and re-draw a lot of lines that none of this is going to happen.

    If Warcraft was 2 years old, and the people that built it were the ones still working on the project then they would probably do something like that, or if not that, similar. But it's too big a risk that isn't all that necessary just to make a game top shape?

    Most of your changes are narrative orientated anyway, and wow's probably the lousiest franchise with narrative, it's lore is bad, face it, we may like the races and feeling because of nostalgia and because they're cool and have character, but they're extremely shallow, superficial and have little depth, plus every new instalment changes previous things, re-writes them, recasts them, it's all of the place.. it's clearly just a mechanism to make the adventure more palatable and fuel the roleplay fantasy.

    Compare wow's story telling to say Warhammer or star wars (take SWTOR for example), you realise how utterly shallow wow's races and characters are, but they are quite cool, and how lame the faction conflict and presentation is.

    Your solution might genuinely be what it takes to fix this, but you grossly over estimate the value and importance of such a thing. Ultimately we don't need high elves for wow to survive, don't even need factions, the devs are just as likely to go a totally different direction than the one you proposed that will ruffle a few feathers. Sure it would also excite a few , but am i the only one that feels Warcraft has really past that old alliance /horde set up and Ravenmoon either hasn't really realised it, or is stuck in the past about it, just like he was on the night elves?


    Your best chance for high elves is exactly what they've done, added skin tones to the void elves, and you'd probably get some hair colours, which I have recommended before, like platinum white, a couple of blondes and an orangey red.. The premise will likely be you're one of the high elves or blood elves that has been drawn to the ren'dorei to study the void, like the lot you saw in Telogrus rift, you are part of the faction, but like Alleria, your skin hasn't changed. That's it.
    high elves will continue to be sparse and few, like the Silver covenant and Dalaran residents, and they'd probably get tied into the void elves. I liked that idea you gave about a bonded partner, from the anime Uraboku - I liked that or the Shadowhunters parabatai bond - where a void elf and high elf pair up and the pairing stabislies the void elf by providing a tether of a loved one, it also increase their power as they can now use a lot more void without being lost to insanity, whereas the high elf can use a lot more light as the light reacts to the void. And you always see them in pairs - its novel, can you imagine when making a void elf character that you have to design 2 characters - one with void skin and one with high elf skin


    You are more likely to get something novel like that, than a big song and dance about high elves. WE already got that in TBC..soz. Wait for WoW 2 or a new warcraft single player for things to change - that would likely be followed up by a new cata-level world revamp for wow , it might as well be wow 2.
    You honestly can't know that. There are many cases where the sequel has happened and it's been the best thing that has happened.

    It's been 14 years since the high elves introduction to wow as blood elves, maybe the sequel , that shows the high elves returning in style, might be the more memorable and the tide changer. For both the factions.

  20. #23240
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    True, very true,which is why you want that sort of thing balanced. Gameplay depends on these things a lot, if you favour one faction heavily, not only would it help force people back, but the gameplay becomes very unfair.

    I think you should want the play to be fair, regardless of what happens in the lore.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I hear you, and I do understand that these players will be affected.. but I don't think that should stop anyone from making changes they feel are necessary and important, especially if they feel the end result down the line would be better for everyone, not just the alliance in the short but the horde in the long. It's worth suffering the wrath of some.

    And emotions change too, what sounds very bad based on negative hype can turn around once people experience it, and things you thought you might hate you could end up loving. In the least you might not like the belf and NElf themes on the horde changing at first, but they may need to, and you might end up liking that chagne.

    I know people who neither liked the Blood elves going horde, nor the Nightborne too and were very upset with that, but are not only fine with it now, they enjoy it. But if you ask them, they would tell you it would have been better for that not to happen, but they're okay with it and sitll enjoy the game.. For some it's diminished their experience, but they stil like it. Others

    As for me I'm in one of those groups somewhere. I hope you don't think I hate the alliance or the horde or the blood elves or anything like that. I already have the high elf civilization playable on the horde and the kaldorei civilization too, I have what I wanted, albeit it on the other faction and i enjoy them there. Every time I play round, I do get a strong feeling that it's weird and these themes would be much better a climate and setting if it was all on the alliance, and I also sometimes long for the blood elves to be bit more like the Illidari, like they were been set up in TFT when Belves joined Illidan - that edgier sexy/hot but bad boy/bitch sort of character.

    I think it would have been better, not just because i like it, but because it offers something different from what's already on the alliance and isn't taking that theme... it seems I am more eloquent analysing the games problems and coming up with solutions than i am expressing my feelings.

    The current status quo isn't bad, it's okay, I want this to be great, more than okay, and i think the alliance themes on the horde are getting in the way, they either need to inch towards distinguishing hte factions more thematically or total blend. An go hard on which ever option.

    We're talking about improvements here, that would solve some bad of the game issues like alliance depletion.



    I respectfully disagree, maybe because I'm older now, but I was like you a year ago, advocating first option of no one has to suffer loss, but when a mistake happens, part of the consequences is some pain and loss to correct it, it is what needs to be done if you truly wan to fix it well or the best way. I remember asking the devs why do they have to nerf classes, why not buff everyone up to the few over powered specs, because no one likes nerfing. Which is true, do you know what they replied?

    It's exactly the same reasoning. No matter what you do, someone is going to feel hurt or not like, so you shouldn't focus on pleasing everyone or not offending anyone, resolve and be convicted over what you feel is the right thing and do it, it will pay off in the end even though some will be upset. If they didn't remove anything from the horde, and just bolstered the alliance well, there is going to be some backlash, some will not like it, horde fans who hate the alliance won't like it.

    But taking the high elves to the horde has done a lot of things, it's responsible for the constant alliance whining over them, and now the Nightborne, they don't do so for any other horde race, nor do the horde do so for any alliance race - the solution should have been seen a long time ago, high elve needed to be playable on the alliance too at least.

    however there are now many good reasons for playable high elves that could solve some of the issues.. however the issue of horde attraction and homogenising of themes or mixed theme, only one way to solve it, either remove it from the horde or make it not matter by making the factions indistinguishable


    I also respectfully disagree, because this is not the first time it has happened, and I've seen how people react... a few get angry - most actually don't, but they will let you know one way or another how well they received it. if they receive it well you would see interest in the narrative nad the game spike, regardless of the bitter raging. Most of the bitter raging will die down, hot heads who rage quit, will actually come back once their heads have cooled, and they'll find out it's not so big a deal and the result of the operation might actually lead to things they enjoy.

    now I can't say for 100% certainty this is what will happen, afterall, in 2 years California could be under the sea or blizzard out of business or WoW 2 announced or any number of things could happen, even the expected behaviour change.

    But it's a fair bet.


    But we can agree to disagree on this, sometimes you need to cut the chord, even though it hurts, you need to do what it takes to save the child, and sometimes great improvements come with some measure of sacrifice. It is the way.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Never thought I'd be agreeing with Satan, but I also like this change.
    If the objective is that the alliance becomes popular and that many people go to play the alliance, what you have to do is give it better racials.

    Or was it not unfair that the alliance had an ilvl 410 when starting a patch and the horde did not? Wasn't unfair 30% for the alliance in war mode?

    Obviously it's unfair, but if you're looking to make one faction more popular over another, that's clearly what you have to do.

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