Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[ravenmoon]

I must admit... if Human males had a "lean body" option... I would actually make one.

They do, they're called high elves (or blood elves or void elves )

[BaumanKing]

In an ironic twist of fate, Blizzard could pull off a proactive Alliance with Turaylon as leader. He is far more zealous than Anduin

Lol, a zealot who sleeps with a void elf, condemns Xe'ra after her death, supports Anduin's peaceful policy, and is friendly towards the forsaken and mages.

The devs might add more customization options, class options, and lore, to reinforce that Void Elves are the Alliance High Elves by showing in-game questlines and NPC dialogues/interactions detailing the why's of this decision by the former Quel'dorei. This is the path I support now. It would take the Alliance High Elves out of their "stasis chamber" and allow them to move forward in story development. I do understand that those seeking High Elves would have preferred a different path than the Ren'dorei, I would have too, but it's what we have to work with now and it's unlikely that Blizzard will add another Thalassian race to the Alliance.

It would be cool for Silver Covenant to start inviting void elves into their ranks.

[Tanaria]

Lol, a zealot who sleeps with a void elf, condemns Xe'ra after her death, supports Anduin's peaceful policy, and is friendly towards the forsaken and mages.

He's a zealot in his utter devotion to the Light. He is lightforged and Blizzard have been hinting that the Light isn't this "purely good" force for some time. It might be time to put that to the test. With this in mind, it makes sense for the Alliance to be the ones who represent this "zealous" view of the Light. Makes the faction actually interesting, by enhancing the story of "hang on, the Light isn't so good after all."

And in comparison to the other Horde commander, he is certainly a zealot. That's good. We need more of that within the Alliance, to stop this "holy white knight" thing which is another factor to the Alliance being quite the bland faction.
We've got Void Elves, Dark Irons, Worgen...use them to their fullest.

[Kyriani]

It's very possible, that the Arcane Highborne could take up a more active role - the last time the Night Elves as a whole, truly prospered was under leadership of an Arcane wielder (although said arcane wielder also brought about their own ruin as well.)
Highborne towers and buildings in and around Darkshore could be a way of a force-field being conjured by the Shen'dralar which protects the Night Elves' new capital which could be Mathystra.

I think, if the Highborne play an active role, Hyjal isn't the best location for them, due to it being very Druidic - it's possible that the Highborne conjure and rebuild the ancient city of Mathystra and this is where the Night Elf civillians choose to live. This also follows on from the Battle for Darkshore, which I think, needs to have some sort of in-game conclusion. A 40 seconds cinematic isn't cutting it for me and the fact that it swaps between being controlled by the Forsaken, then the Night Elves...nah, if you want that, you've got the Bronze Dragons and Chromie Time.

Or - due to Maiev and the Wardens returning, could this be a return to the Night Elven Wardens holding more of a presence? Maiev is relentless when angered...I mean, Tyrande + Night Warrior isn't a pretty thing, but Maiev + Night Warrior...I reckon Sylvanas would be doing her utmost to stay well clear of Maiev, if she was the Night Warrior.

I'd find it interesting to see the Highborne take a more active role in the rebuilding of Night Elf society. From the Arcandor storyline, we can see that arcane and nature combined can produce rather wondrous results.

It would be cool for Silver Covenant to start inviting void elves into their ranks.

Agreed. I also wouldn't mind seeing members of the Silver Covenant actively pursuing study of the void and becoming Ren'dorei. It would be an example of Quel'dorei actually becoming Ren'dorei.

[Tanaria]

I'd find it interesting to see the Highborne take a more active role in the rebuilding of Night Elf society. From the Arcandor storyline, we can see that arcane and nature combined can produce rather wondrous results.

Well the latter is a story that doesn't involve the Darnassian-based Night Elves under the law of Tyrande and Malfurion.
During the War of Thorns, when the Highborne arrived, they were taken aback when the Sentinels and Druids were cheering for them.

This does suggest, that those within the Alliance have been facing uneasy acceptance, even after all this time.

I think it would be one branch too far (pun intended), for the Highborne to start dwelling and using the arcane, so close to the Well of Eternity. The Highborne story could be the development from the Battle for Darkshore, where most of the civilians go and live as they could view the Highborne as being the ones who have the means to get them out of trouble, when and if needed. It could make both Maiev and Shandris unhappy, but the public view is that the Highborne wield magic that can save them.
I wouldn't say the public become disillusioned by Tyrande and Malfurion, but this could be where we see far more Night Elves taking up the Arcane again and far more are becoming Magi.

[Kyriani]

Well the latter is a story that doesn't involve the Darnassian-based Night Elves under the law of Tyrande and Malfurion.
During the War of Thorns, when the Highborne arrived, they were taken aback when the Sentinels and Druids were cheering for them.

This does suggest, that those within the Alliance have been facing uneasy acceptance, even after all this time.

I think it would be one branch too far (pun intended), for the Highborne to start dwelling and using the arcane, so close to the Well of Eternity. The Highborne story could be the development from the Battle for Darkshore, where most of the civilians go and live as they could view the Highborne as being the ones who have the means to get them out of trouble, when and if needed. It could make both Maiev and Shandris unhappy, but the public view is that the Highborne wield magic that can save them.
I wouldn't say the public become disillusioned by Tyrande and Malfurion, but this could be where we see far more Night Elves taking up the Arcane again and far more are becoming Magi.

I don't really see Hyjal being developed in-game as anything since it's used in the Cataclysm leveling experience. There's not really any place to put a city there without removing something, and the area around the Well of Eternity isn't exactly large. A city would require that entire little valley to be completely filled and that would throw a wrench into the Cata experience.

My guess is we won't see a new capital for Night Elves or Forsaken added to the game. Blizzard seems to want to stuff us into Stormwind and Orgrimmar most of the time. Heck... Darnassus, Exodar, Thunderbluff and Silvermoon don't have Barbershops... nevermind transmog and void storage NPCs. Blizzard can't even be bothered to make token efforts to give players a reason to visit capitals other than SW/Org or capital of xpac du jour. It truly baffles me that Silvermoon of all places doesnt have a barber or a transmog NPC!!!

[ravenmoon]

It's fine to have an opinion, or to speculate about things that could be done to bring about a desired result, but I prefer to put my efforts towards things that actually have a realistic chance of happening. Taking Silvermoon and/or Suramar away from the Horde just isn't realistic. So to affect actual change, I focus on things that are within the realm of possibility.

What's the point? We don't work for them? I say speculate and share your opinions and views on everything, don't limit or restrict. I use to do what you did, but blizzard when they do things, are not limited by what our impressions are, nor are they limited by what they have done before, this is why they can do new things, while we sit here and speculate only based on what we have seen.

What's the point in criticising and fighting each other over speculations we don't view as realistic or rather as likely to be implemented? if you feel drastic change needs to be done, why play it down to something that is manageable , like you are trying to appeal to some court or appease squabbling children/ Sometimes you just need to do what needs to be done, whether it's controversial or the kids argue, you need to be able to see ahead and make the tough choices whether to correct mistakes or create new avenues.

The devs aren't going to change Blood Elves and/or Nightborne just to make the Alliance look better. This is a path that leads nowhere and any efforts made towards pushing for this are essentially a dead end.

i can't know that, nor can you. However, i don't think it's wise to make suggestions or have desires that only seem likely. Since we can 't determine what's likely, and the people who make the program change the gaol posts all the time.

We should never be afraid to say the things we like, and not fear community retribution either. I am not going to turn away from this just because it seems unlikely or some don't like it. I feel something drastic needs to happen to steer this ship right, and devs shouldn't be afraid to do it.

Certainly players shouldn't be afraid to make creative suggestions no matter how unrealistic they appear.. my point is, that you and i cannot really determine what is realistic or possible, don't let that limit you.

The devs might add more customization options, class options, and lore, to reinforce that Void Elves are the Alliance High Elves by showing in-game questlines and NPC dialogues/interactions detailing the why's of this decision by the former Quel'dorei. This is the path I support now. It would take the Alliance High Elves out of their "stasis chamber" and allow them to move forward in story development. I do understand that those seeking High Elves would have preferred a different path than the Ren'dorei, I would have too, but it's what we have to work with now and it's unlikely that Blizzard will add another Thalassian race to the Alliance.

I will likely support everything they do, but there are some things I feel would have a larger impact than others. ultimately it is for them to decide, it is their game, if they want it to role out successfully they need to make changes that ensure this happens.. whether they are revolutionary... like removing factions, or expanding them or going the traditional way, doubling down on the original alliance and horde fantasies, however they see fit. If they get it wrong, they will lose this cash cow, if they get it right, they could see it resurge.

It would be ironical if this is the key, but they ignore it because I suggest it.

However this is not to criticise your suggestions. Would you believe me if I told you I like what you are writing here, I do. I do believe what I am suggesting would be better and more effective, in getting the job done, but I would also like what you are asking for. It isn't as good as high elves proper, but it's something, and is certainly better than the current state of affairs. But I firmly believe, blizzard shouldn't give compromised solutions, but should go all out. They went all out of the horde before, they need to go all out for the alliance, and use the experience they have gathered to make it even better this time round for the franchise than it was the last time.

The devs might add more customization options and lore to reinforce the fact that the Shen'dralar (Highborne) did return to Night Elf society. I support this path as well. More options are always welcome and it's a fact, though oft overlooked, that some Highborne were accepted back into Night Elf society, which is why they have mages now. The Night Elf story could see the Night Elf people looking to the arcane once again as they desperately try to rebuild their society after the devastation of Teldrassil. I believe that's well within the realm of things the devs might be willing to explore. It wouldn't mean a forsaking of the Night Elf focus on nature themes, but the arcane themes could see a bit more prominence alongside them.

i am all for this too. I think there is a treasure trove for the alliance in letting the kaldorei fully shine in all their facets, not just as forest hunters, but as pre-sundering civilization great arcane wielders, powerful combat Moonguard mages, bad ass anti hero Illidari (loved the Cata demon hunters we met in felwood and blasted lands, now that was cool) in addition to more sides of the druids we haven't seen and especially expanding the priesthood, we haven't seen the caster , temple side of the priesthood yet, and they haven't fleshed out the whole "stars " thing, properly linking in the arcane origin, the Well of Eternity, Elune, magecraft amongst the night elves with its unique star and moon magic theme which is nicely different form your typical Kirin'tor mage, there is so much diversity in that race, with some amazing avenues for a great fantasy, underutilised.

whether it's walking trees or powerful ancient magi that can call down stars and wonders untold, like their lore says, we can have breath taking things for the night elves whether you visit their pre-sundering groups or long vigil groups whether you go to their forest or their cities, it can be a very special magical elven affair almost alien to the usual human like civilization we have seen humans and Thalassians involved with. But this is how they first set them up, it has potential.

The bottom line are they willing to make alliance races shine. the night elves certainly have great material to use, unique to Warcraft and a source of magical wonder in both the arcane and nature, and that mysterious moon goddess who seems to be bathed in arcane, but also light and void and touches the nature world too, through her son Cenarius who is probably the reason why night elven druidism has arcane elements of moon and star magic.

The devs have previously seemed reluctant to outright remove the faction barrier, but I have a feeling it's inevitable to some degree. Just like mercenary mode for pvp, I believe it's possible that some sort of pve version of that could come about, if only due to the fact that WoW is an old game and there are only so many people who will play the game now. New players are few and far between, and old players sometimes don't return. Assuming the devs can't figure out a way to incentivize endgame progression on the Alliance, then only recourse I can see for them is to allow cross-faction grouping in some way. The two factions are integral to the foundation of wow, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for flexibility.

This is what I am saying, i have argued more for removing faction barriers than tightening them, simply because of the direction things are going. This suggestion i have made is entirely based on blizzards desire to restore the what Warcraft is all about. They are the ones that claim if the factions go, we lose the heart of Warcraft, so, in order to fix that heart, they need to bring the alliance stuff that is on the horde back over to the alliance, which is remove it from the horde's blood elves and Nightborne , take it to the alliance, and build the horde's remaining blood elves and Nightborne something cool but different. bolster the core horde races for what they are, but make it cool and attractive too. And bolster the alliance for the assets it has.


This is how you fix the core, if that is what you want to do. There is a charm about the original Warcraft core, and if they don't want to resign it to the history books, it will take the sort of actions i am suggesting to properly address it. Otherwise, they must go along the lines Beloren keeps suggesting.

I am not a fan of the factions, not with wow the way it is now, my first option would be for them to go, but if you are going to keep them, then they need to do something more along the lines of what I've been saying to make it good, sound and relative.

I keep telling others like MyWholeLifeIsThunder, what I have suggested is not the only way to go about doing things. I see and know this, i realise this, but for healing Warcraft, restoring it's heart/core and making it the best for what it use to be about, this is what they need to do.

Blizzard must decide whether to have confidence in the original vision and heart of Warcraft or to change it. If they change it, then change it well, if they keep the core, then stop the homogenising, and dithering, do a good job and fix it right.

but it's not true to say they can't fix it, that's just a lie, they can, they may just not be willing to.. and if they don't want the horde to lose the high elf stuff so bad, then they should press on ahead with changing the whole concept. But they must make the decision. if it's good, fans will love it, whichever direction they go. If they go the Warcraft core route, it will draw back a lot of their base crowd that left ,classic is a perfect example that that old concept of Warcraft is popular, have retail emulate that by letting the alliance actually be the alliance and the horde be the horde, with no theme mixing, then watch the sparks light a fire that ignites the rusty engine, especially if you do a good job.. there is no reason why people can't love the horde for being the horde and having orcs, trolls and tauren etc, and love a non-high elven version of blood elves and a non-kaldorei civilization version of Nightborne. Just be brave.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I keep telling others like MyWholeLifeIsThunder, what I have suggested is not the only way to go about doing things. I see and know this, i realise this, but for healing Warcraft, restoring it's heart/core and making it the best for what it use to be about, this is what they need to do.

And you simply keep disregarding when people point out how it would negatively impact what has been Horde identity for 15 years.

Even before any consideration if it would work -it wouldn't- the utter disregard for all the people that enjoy that elven identity, and have for the last 15 years, as part of the Horde is of no concern to you, and again, unconscionable. And you fail to realize that.

Cause again, you want to take away 15 years of an identity as part of the Horde because you believe it would "fix" WoW. And as I said, I'm done humoring that as a serious discussion. And it's a shame the thread about High Elves has devolved into this nonsense you keep peddling.

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I must admit... if Human males had a "lean body" option... I would actually make one.

TBH a lot of people play elves because humans in WoW are too bulky; if we had leaner humans -let's say Dalaran humans since they also have another theme and flavor- that allowed you to make *prettier* characters, they would be the most popular race.

A huge misconception Ravenmoon has with aesthetics is that having the whole elven identity on the alliance would do little in terms of player choice, when it's aesthetics what people choose;

RN all that's keeping VE's from being the most popular race is 1, the lack of traditional hair colors, and 2, the rep gating. Before the Warcraft Realm data was discuntinued, VE's were surpassing even worgen in terms of popularity, and that was before the new skin tones.

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The first time Blizzard brought the "Arcane Elf" thing to the Alliance in any real format, where players could play it, was with Night Elf Mages in 2011 and even then, they didn't really explore it, aside from in Feralas, Azshara and Felwood, with a few scattered quest NPC's.

Before that, it was the Horde Blood Elves that truly commanded the "Arcane Elf" scene, that players could also pick. Hell, my main alt in WoTLK was a Blood Elf Arcane Mage and it felt really good to play...using the Sunreaver Tabard (although, I didn't have the Sunreaver Mounts, I did use the Swift Red Hawkstrider and the Magnificent Flying Carpet.)
Despite it's flaws, TBC Eversong Woods does an excellent job of showcasing the Sin'dorei's mastery of the Arcane. That has been shown to be improving every single step with most of Silvermoon's Magister involved with Blood and Fire Magics.

Exactly; before Cata, there was a clear demarcation between Arcane Elves on the Horde, and Nature Elves on the Alliance. I am personally 100% on board with lessening faction dichotomy, thus allowing certain themes to be shared and overlap. But if you are going to claim some sort of traditionalism argument for a golden age of "What Warcraft Should Be" Then that does not entail Arcane/Magical Elves on the Alliance whatsoever.

Which again, since enforced faction dichotomy that dumb down the setting, and removes in universe agency of groups to choose their politics is just asinine, it's moot.

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Well said. I think @ravenmoon is a little too demanding with his wishes for the lore development. I think we should adopt a more subtle approach. First of all, as @Tanaria and @MyWholeLifeIsThunder have said, Silvermoon came out along with Exodar in TBC. It is practically a Vanilla expac if you pair the 3 first ones, Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK. It is not a good idea, and I don't think the devs are planning, to remove Silvermoon from Horde, or anything related to that. Same with Nightborne. It was a clear decision to place them in the Horde, and their home is Suramar so naturally Nightborne's starting zone is Suramar, but new players cannot quest in it. Both Allies and Hordies have the opportunity to quest in and experience Suramar when they do the Legion questline for it

So I will pile up a small list of ''Do's'' and Don't's:

Do:
Give Mt Hyjal to Night elves (as will probably happen)
Give Telogrus rift or Allerian Stronghold development with a Void elf capital and starting quest zone
Give High elven features to Void elves, such as hairstyles and light hair colours
Give arcane tattoos and glowing lims to Night elves when Core Races are looked into again
Give Dark Ranger features to Blood elves such as glowing red eyes, pale skin etc
Give Sun'Layn features to Blood elves such as fangs, vampire makeup, in-combat wings
Give better customization to Nightborne such as skins, faces, and hairstyles (probs already underway)

Don't:
Don't take Silvermoon from Blood elves
Don't take Suramar from Nightborne

PS: See how tiny that Don't list is guys? Smile and consider how close we all are to wanting similar things happening. All that needs doing is putting aside some views, as the devs appear to not agree with these views anyways.

The problem is that Ravenmoon's proposal is based on hardly rational or fair premises, you really can't reach a middle ground or compromise with someone who thinks elven identity is intrinsically alliance and should not be part of the Horde.

You can't have a rational discussion when one side's premise is to literally take away 15 years of BE identity because somehow that will "fix" the game.

[Ardenaso]

Lol, a zealot who sleeps with a void elf, condemns Xe'ra after her death, supports Anduin's peaceful policy, and is friendly towards the forsaken and mages.

he says he seeks to bring former Alliance of Lordaeron holdings into the Alliance - I could see him condemning the Argent Crusade for their inaction in BFA and then invading Hearthglen and Eastweald with the help of Alleria

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TBH a lot of people play elves because humans in WoW are too bulky; if we had leaner humans -let's say Dalaran humans since they also have another theme and flavor- that allowed you to make *prettier* characters, they would be the most popular race.

Alteraci Humans for the Horde

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Alteraci Humans for the Horde

That has hardly anything to do with the point being made; which was that if humans were prettier, they would probably be more popular than elves.

(But also yes, Alteraci Humans for the Horde)

[ravenmoon]

I think this is it for me; you simply continue to not address any of the issues we keep presenting and just repeating your views again. You are not interested on a discussion, you don't care about how it doesn't work, you simply say "well it's my opinion" without any attempt to understand why your opinion and premise would negatively impact the experience of huge swaths of the playerbase.

i don't need to care for anyone else's vision. Mine is being challenged and i 'm responding to that, you have presented your vision, others have theirs, and many a time, when I have agreed with them, or liked their ideas, I have said that, it's not my fault you ignore that or don't see it, only to say something like that.

just because i don't write essays on their ideas, doesn't mean my statement of support, agreement isn't exactly that.

Take what I write at face value. if I say it's not bad, I mean it's not bad, i don't mean it's rubbish, if I say I like it, it is not an excuse to shut the person up so i can push my ideas, it means I genuinely liike it, if I then go on to discuss their problems or issues with mine, then so be it, it doesn't mean i have discounted their idea or don't consider it, I've just gone back to addressing the issues they have presented, or sometimes just adding additional thoughts, this is my right ofc. if you didn't respond ,on it, I'd have nothing to reply to.

I do have a tendency to repeat my statement in subsequent responses, It may make what I write sometimes a bit too tedious, but I often feel I need to.

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The problem is that Ravenmoon's proposal is based on hardly rational or fair premises, you really can't reach a middle ground or compromise with someone who thinks elven identity is intrinsically alliance and should not be part of the Horde.

You can't have a rational discussion when one side's premise is to literally take away 15 years of BE identity because somehow that will "fix" the game.

It's based on rationale, but it's not based on a fair premise. It's not meant to be fair, if one faction needs to be attractive over the other, the other faction is going to be at a disadvantage or must be made to.

it's not something anyone wants ideally, but this is what happens when you have an imbalance, you have to take action to fix, it, in this case, the alliance needs to be up, so you have to make it look better than the horde.. biased horde fans aren't going to like to see their enemy faction look good, that's just too bad for them, this is necessary.

They can oppose every suggestion or idea that makes the alliance appear better (in their eyes than the horde) but to fixt his problem you are going to need that - whether it is in the way I pointed out, or a less intensive manner.

Look, I've become a rip the band aid off kinda guy, there is wisdom in that, hard, severe, but fast, it's actually better, heals fast you move on quicker and bring other improvements. I favour this approach - this doesn't make me irrational

The place you want to get is where both factions are roughly even, and then you can do equally cool things for both. At the moment the alliance needs a significant up, and this will come at the expense of the horde, one way or the other, itif it's not in blood lees losing some land and npcs, it would be in other things, just merely making the alliance look good is going to make the horde feel bad.. but you don't avoid doing such thins to prevent people from feeling jealous.. they have to manage their emotions, and sometimes the other person getting better things is part of life, you just have to wait your turn rather than be a spoilt child whining that they're better. Wait your turn.

now if you have a parent or teacher or dev that never gets back to you, then you may have sufficient cause to actually be upset. otherwise you don't.


And do tell what's so irrational about what I'm saying.

[Kyriani]

RN all that's keeping VE's from being the most popular race is 1, the lack of traditional hair colors, and 2, the rep gating. Before the Warcraft Realm data was discuntinued, VE's were surpassing even worgen in terms of popularity, and that was before the new skin tones.

The rep gate was removed in SL I believe. Basically all that's needed to unlock allied races now is to do the quests required for the achievements to unlock them and do the scenario.

EDIT: Yep, here's the requirements now:

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

i don't need to care for anyone else's vision. Mine is being challenged and i 'm responding to that, you have presented your vision, others have theirs, and many a time, when I have agreed with them, or liked their ideas, I have said that, it's not my fault you ignore that or don't see it, only to say something like that.

Not really, you never really address any criticisms to your premise.

It's based on rationale, but it's not based on a fair premise. It's not meant to be fair, if one faction needs to be attractive over the other, the other faction is going to be at a disadvantage or must be made to

It's hardly rational when you simply do not account for the backlash it would cause. Of course it's not fair, and the fact that there are other options that would be both fairer and logical seems of no concern to you, because you have only your vision and have little regard for anything or anyone else.

Also the leap in logic that removing elven identity from the horde, but not the models, will fix the appeal issues between factions, is, yeah, an utter leap on logic without any solid basis.

So you have a high controversial idea that would alienate a lot of the playerbase, and no evidence it would work. It's neither fair, nor logical, nor rational.

And do tell what's so irrational about what I'm saying

The fact that you simply do not consider the backlash such decision would cause. That's entirely irrational. Your premise would be bound to truly upset a lot of the playerbase and your only response to that is "they'd deal with it"? It's profoundly naive and silly.

I don't know what's worse, your unwarranted confidence on your deeply flawed premise, or your complete lack of concern about the backlash such an implementation would cause.

There are so many other ways to uplift the alliance, and yet you continue to peddle the most asinine premise of removing something that ahs been Horde identity for over 15 years and expect no backlash. And also dumbs down the game removing in universe agency of the groups for a simplistic dichotomy.

It's bad in every aspect, your logic is flawed, and your lack of accounting for the backlash it would cause it's hilariously tone deaf.

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The rep gate was removed in SL I believe. Basically all that's needed to unlock allied races now is to do the quests required for the achievements to unlock them and do the scenario.

EDIT: Yep, here's the requirements now:

Oh yeh, I just still call it "rep gated" but it's more "content gated"

A new player can't simply make a VE, they still have to unlock them by doing the Argus storyline, so that certainly creates a barrier of entry for new players that come into the game, compared to the non-locked BE's.

TBH I think that AR requirements should be lifted; considering that the storyline starts on Exile's Reach now, there's not much sense in gating AR behind previous expansion content, when all other races skip the content that uses to set them up, you know?

If the alliance it's to be more popular, and elves are popular, it would stand to reason to make them available to new players instead of only to old player that have already chose their mains.

And as such, the unlocking questline could be refitted to serve as the Heritage Armor akin to the Core Races, framed as a "Now you will learn how we joined our faction"

[Kyriani]

And as such, the unlocking questline could be refitted to serve as the Heritage Armor akin to the Core Races, framed as a "Now you will learn how we joined our faction"

The Blood Elf heritage questline follows a similar premise ("this is how we got where we are today"), so that could work.

[Valandale]

If they wanted to make the Alliance cool they would have to go full ham on making them as violent and glory seeking as the horde tends to be, just shove a bit of warhammer humanity into the humans and they would stop being so lukewarm. They should be like warhammer humans with all the horde does to them, but because blizzard wants to try and give moral lessons and then sweep them under the carpet, they need to have a goody two shoes faction that gives out weak denunciation and is forgiving. The writers are in a crisis of consciousness apart from just being more free to do whatever with the horde because that's the precedent given to them by the old writers, also are stuck in the pious peacenik ways for the alliance because that's the precedent for them. Put the WAR in warcraft by actually throwing both factions into war machines. because otherwise one side is the villain and the other is a hero. And the hero is fun to play in single player, because generally your choices feel like they matter, but in WoW, nothing the Alliance ever does matters because they have to suffer to show how valiant and chivalrous they are and never get anything to show for it. Knights may have had a code of chivalry but most of them were men of war fighting brutal combat. Turalyon may very well prove to do just this, whip the Alliance up like Sylvanas did but this time they actually have a reason because Sylvanas freaking gave them one.

To expound upon a thought, it's probably why BfA failed, neither side felt good about the story because neither side could get invested in it. "Why are we melting the Night elves with fire? we literally just fought off the Legion together?" "Why are we even giving the horde lenience, look what they did to the Night Elves!??!" If they'd actually committed the Alliance to vengeance it might have worked better because then the horde would have a real reason to fight and the entire Saurfang subplot wouldn't have been so off-putting, he probably would have died in Undercity making a proper martyr and rallying cry for the Horde (which I think anduin even mentioned), and deliciously foul because that wouldn't have been what he wanted. ... so much potential...

[Tanaria]

I don't really see Hyjal being developed in-game as anything since it's used in the Cataclysm leveling experience. There's not really any place to put a city there without removing something, and the area around the Well of Eternity isn't exactly large. A city would require that entire little valley to be completely filled and that would throw a wrench into the Cata experience.

My guess is we won't see a new capital for Night Elves or Forsaken added to the game. Blizzard seems to want to stuff us into Stormwind and Orgrimmar most of the time. Heck... Darnassus, Exodar, Thunderbluff and Silvermoon don't have Barbershops... nevermind transmog and void storage NPCs. Blizzard can't even be bothered to make token efforts to give players a reason to visit capitals other than SW/Org or capital of xpac du jour. It truly baffles me that Silvermoon of all places doesnt have a barber or a transmog NPC!!!

Stormwind and Orgrimmar are the main cities that Blizzard tend to love and care about, but they have also said that they do want to see the Night Elves and Forsaken in their own cities.

I wouldn't worry too much about Hyjal being their main home as it could either be a phased version for new players and those at level cap or they could put the Cata-Hyjal into Chromie-Time or through a timeweaving Bronze Dragon NPC. Either way, they would keep both versions in the game as the Firelands Raid would need to be accessible.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The Blood Elf heritage questline follows a similar premise ("this is how we got where we are today"), so that could work.

A bit like that to a degree, but full on flashback. Maybe a fun way to reframe them would be your character telling the story to a "new adventurer" with you taking the place of the -for example- BE questgivers.

Could either played like the BE scenario where we relive each quest as a different memory, revisiting the actual places -for example, we would take a new VE on a tour through the Ghostlands telling them the story of how Alleria found Umbric's group- or:

Our character starts telling the story -or is present- of how an Horde/Alliance hero helped your race join the faction.

That way your character doesn't come across as completely unaware of how you came to be a part of a faction, and instead they are part of the retelling for a new generation.

- - - Updated - - -

If they wanted to make the Alliance cool they would have to go full ham on making them as violent and glory seeking as the horde tends to be, just shove a bit of warhammer humanity into the humans and they would stop being so lukewarm. They should be like warhammer humans with all the horde does to them, but because blizzard wants to try and give moral lessons and then sweep them under the carpet, they need to have a goody two shoes faction that gives out weak denunciation and is forgiving. The writers are in a crisis of consciousness apart from just being more free to do whatever with the horde because that's the precedent given to them by the old writers, also are stuck in the pious peacenik ways for the alliance because that's the precedent for them. Put the WAR in warcraft by actually throwing both factions into war machines. because otherwise one side is the villain and the other is a hero. And the hero is fun to play in single player, because generally your choices feel like they matter, but in WoW, nothing the Alliance ever does matters because they have to suffer to show how valiant and chivalrous they are and never get anything to show for it. Knights may have had a code of chivalry but most of them were men of war fighting brutal combat. Turalyon may very well prove to do just this, whip the Alliance up like Sylvanas did but this time they actually have a reason because Sylvanas freaking gave them one.

To expound upon a thought, it's probably why BfA failed, neither side felt good about the story because neither side could get invested in it. "Why are we melting the Night elves with fire? we literally just fought off the Legion together?" "Why are we even giving the horde lenience, look what they did to the Night Elves!??!" If they'd actually committed the Alliance to vengeance it might have worked better because then the horde would have a real reason to fight and the entire Saurfang subplot wouldn't have been so off-putting, he probably would have died in Undercity making a proper martyr and rallying cry for the Horde (which I think anduin even mentioned), and deliciously foul because that wouldn't have been what he wanted. ... so much potential...

A big problem with the Alliance is that they are a completely reactionary group. A lot more complexity could be added by simply making them the aggressors for once, and there's plenty from where to pull that from.

The problem is that Blizz doesn't seem to like to portray the alliance as less than perfect, when at this point some alliance aggression would just be flat out better than yet another Horde genocide-by-evil-warchief.

Like, BfA itself would have been better if the alliance started the War -let's say, Azerite gives the alliance an opportunity they can't pass to reclaim Lordaeron, starting to threaten Capital City, and let's say, Anduin himself is doubtful of the move- and thus, Sylvanas, expectantly so, uses the attack to justify her own invasion of Darkshore and Teldrassil and leading us into BfA.

Then most of the expansion would be about the discourse of Sylvanas being justified on burning down Teldrassil, and then end with the revelation she only pushed the War further and further to feed the jailor.

Then by having Saurfang make Anduin see that Sylvanas has taken advantage of them all for whatever plan she has, it would leave both sides on a more equal position of having made mistakes.

Alas, that is done, so I really hope Turalyon goes cucoo for cocoa puffs next exp pac.

[Beloren]

That's what it is

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeh, I just still call it "rep gated" but it's more "content gated"

A new player can't simply make a VE, they still have to unlock them by doing the Argus storyline, so that certainly creates a barrier of entry for new players that come into the game, compared to the non-locked BE's.

TBH I think that AR requirements should be lifted; considering that the storyline starts on Exile's Reach now, there's not much sense in gating AR behind previous expansion content, when all other races skip the content that uses to set them up, you know?

If the alliance it's to be more popular, and elves are popular, it would stand to reason to make them available to new players instead of only to old player that have already chose their mains.

And as such, the unlocking questline could be refitted to serve as the Heritage Armor akin to the Core Races, framed as a "Now you will learn how we joined our faction"

Yeh, the unlocks are still necessary. It woudl be fantastic to merge heritage armor with the unlocking questlines, make a big deal of it

[ravenmoon]

Not really, you never really address any criticisms to your premise.

Really? you need to read to the end, I may sometimes waffle a bit, but it's build up to answering you, read the whole thing.

It's hardly rational when you simply do not account for the backlash it would cause. Of course it's not fair, and the fact that there are other options that would be both fairer and logical seems of no concern to you, because you have only your vision and have little regard for anything or anyone else.

It's not rational argument because I don't account for backlash?


Seriously, so everything is irrational because in your opinion I haven't considered backlash? right.. Well Iif you read what I wrote I have often given my opinion on so called backlash.

And this my just be a point we disagree on and hard to prove, but,

1. Really, it's the hardcore blood elf horde crowd that would be the ones mainly upset - seeing the horde isn't losing blood elves and isn't losing nightborne, - I expect the smae usual tantrums any spoilt child so use to getting favourite pickings all his life will make when it doesn't go his way.

2. I expect quite a lot of the horde fans who have despised blood elves running rampant to actually cheer this move alongside ALL the alliance fans, including those currently playing horde because their faction is dead

Seeing that the loss of Quel'thalas and Suramar city will prompt the gain of the Drakkari and Zul'drak , the Amani and Zul'aman, the Frakki and Zul'farrak, a new Mag'har orc city (in Borean Tundra centred around Warsong Hold or they can make it in Ashenvale), improvements for goblins including the return of Kezan, lost isles and eventually new Undermine city, the shifting over to the horde of Pandaren main assets.

Backlash? the only one I foresee are angry horde elf fans.

3. Certainly not all horde elf players, because of all the people that play blood elves, I am roughly estimating 75% don't care about cities and lore stuff, many of them are either:
a) players from the alliance, stuck on the horde because they can't play on the alliance because everyone's left
b) gamers who play because it's the only model they can stand, not the lore, and since the horde isn't losing the model there will be no backlash
c) gamers who pick blood elves because of the racial for tactical reasons (or a combo of the others)

4. There are horde elf fans who don't even realise, that they don't like the horde, they only like the blood elves and Nightborne because they like the high elf fantasy and the kaldorei fantasy that it is birthed form that sort of high magic, high civilization thing - this was exclusively alliance, but when it went to the horde, and was better than everything on the alliance, they switched.

These players will be the ones that move. Some would get angry for a while, then switch to the alliance, others would happily switch back, or maintain toons on both (I will be in this last group). There are just enough of these, anything from 1/8th to 1/4 of the blood elf and Nightborne player population moving back is all it takes to fix the alliance number gap.

This is not factoring other players who play tons of other races, and retired players fed up of the horde and alliance in wow that stopped being the horde an the alliance long ago and quit wow or only play classic returning.

Where is your metric for over estimating the backlash? I certainly haven't ignored that there will be some, I have alluded to it in previous posts, but in appropriate context. You just haven't read it, or you have and just ignored it.

The point of what is going on is to drum up excitement again, excitement in the alliance, and also in the horde, but this time it is the alliance for being the alliance, no more high elf themes on the horde or night elven ones in the Nightborne, it all goes back to the alliance and the alliance is made to look good for having them and interesting for being the alliance, The horde is not abandoned, the horde is made good for being the horde, or improved on to.. the difference is the alliance is going to shine brighter for a little while because the horde has been looking good for a long time, adding improvements to it are not going to stand out as much as adding improvements to the alliance. But the horde is going to get improvement - i have written this repeatedly and extensively, but it appears you have neither read properly or seriously considered what i am saying

You've just looked at "horde lose blood elves " - which isn't what i was saying exactly, and gone - this is crazy, blizzard wouldn't dare do something like this, the backlash would be enormous - and concluded that it's delusional, and said as much.

If you're going to fully criticise a person's comment, at least consider all of it first, then you can reply with insults of delusional and crazy.

Also the leap in logic that removing elven identity from the horde, but not the models, will fix the appeal issues between factions, is, yeah, an utter leap on logic without any solid basis.


So you have a high controversial idea that would alienate a lot of the playerbase, and no evidence it would work. It's neither fair, nor logical, nor rational.

First, read the response above, because it applies to this too. I have gone step by step on how/why I predict it will go well. I don't know the future so there is a chance it fails, blizzard took a huge risk when they first took the high elves to the horde, it was a much bigger risk then because the factions were truly distinct back then, and this was a bigger change, it wasn't made to make the factions more diverse, that was not the goal, it was made to populate the horde so that the gameplay issues would be fixed.


It won't be anywhere as controversial a move now, not after we've seen the night elves and forsaken lose stuff, and seen more alliance elves go over, having the high elves being restored has been widely anticipated,

The claimed backlash of the horde if alliance get high elf models, then high elf skins NEVER HAPPENED, and I predicted this if you scroll back a thousand or so pages in this very post - I pointed out people won't care or abandon the horde in droves if the alliance got the model, because it is already on the horde what did it do? It excited the alliance (not quite as much as high elves, and that moved pissed the alliance off also) but it excited the alliance, the horde hardly cared and got on. The only people that were angry were the very very loud vocal minority who are the ones still making it seem like it would be the ned of the world if high elves were playable, and feel the same way if NPC blood elves move back to the alliance , even if Silvermoon and Suramar go with them.


Even in my proposal, the horde elves would get a new city down the line, either two, or just one new one that both groups live together, but it will not be high elf design or any of the kaldorei designs, it would be new one, new architecture - i have no problem with it looking very cool. The whole point of this is not to give the horde crappy stuff or deny cool stuff, I don't hate the horde, and it's good for the game if both factions get great stuff. So let the new city look great, but it must be something that fits more in line with the horde, so it shouldn't go for delicate flower beauty /fragile look that Silvermoon and Suramar have - that look is in line with high elf fantasy and the Night elven kaldorei lore, it needs to be stronger, more imposing, - think a better version of Naz'jatar city or Castle Nathria in Revendreth, - or it could be something totally new, whatever it is it just needs to be cool

But I have said all this before. Pointed out it's more than just models involved here, the point here is fixing the factions, improving the alliance which is a great necessity, and in a way that balances out the factions to restore their theme, I feel a lot of players would appreciate this. I think you're the one far too overconfident in your assessment, because you're attached to the horde elf feelings of loyalty, and don't realise you are a minority. I do not ignore that there will be backlash, it would be nothing like on the scale of when the Nightborne a night elf sub-race went horde, or when the blood elves went horde, seeing players are use to this sort of things, and in this case, it's not horde races going alliance, but rather the alliance races gaining their things back - most of the game population is aware the the high elves are alliance based and so are the kaldorei.. it's been in the lore since the beginning, those who don't know because they've only played the game, would be made aware of it by the devs in game when they make a show of the high elves returning and the kaldorei rising up.

The fact that you simply do not consider the backlash such decision would cause. That's entirely irrational. Your premise would be bound to truly upset a lot of the playerbase and your only response to that is "they'd deal with it"? It's profoundly naive and silly.

I don't know what's worse, your unwarranted confidence on your deeply flawed premise, or your complete lack of concern about the backlash such an implementation would cause.

There are so many other ways to uplift the alliance, and yet you continue to peddle the most asinine premise of removing something that ahs been Horde identity for over 15 years and expect no backlash. And also dumbs down the game removing in universe agency of the groups for a simplistic dichotomy.

It's bad in every aspect, your logic is flawed, and your lack of accounting for the backlash it would cause it's hilariously tone deaf.

]

You just insult and criticise, you are using horrible words that aren't true, as the two replies above answer this question, if you had read what I wrote in earlier replies and responses to you, you would see that I had indeed on several occasions, responded to you and had explained my rational behind it to. To then just nonchalantly or vindictively claim it is irrationally shows either a lack of due diligence or vindictiveness motivated by emo anger rather than logic or sense.

I have gone into much greater detail as to why I think this will go extremely well. I'm not God, so i can't tell the future, but I think I'm fairly accurate well, I have known this community for 15 years, understood when things are really popular, and when things are just a few loud voices, known the difference between forum squatters and gamers who have opinions and desires but will never grace the forums and would play whatever is tossed to them, something will genuinely make them more excited, other things less, but they won't come on forums to say.

Warcraft may still be popular, but it inspires gamers far less than it use to, and this is because this approach they've done, has weaned a lot of people off. Wow was at its most inspirational in the more traditional setting, it got people into it both game and lore wise, and they started changing so much both game and lore wise.

Some changes are good, this is not a criticism about change, change is good, but there are types of changes that are not, mixing the alliance in with the horde in the long term was very bad, in the short term, it helped stabilise horde numbers, right now, it is doing no good, so the best response is to take the alliance themes our t the blood elves who remain on the horde, and out of the Nightborne who will also remain horde playable, and m make a show of these being back on the alliance, while filling the gap they leave with cool and interesting things for orcs, trolls, tauren, goblins, pandas, vulpera, forsaken - until you can shape the remnant blood elves and remnant nightborne into something new.

You may not agree with my conclusions or my estimates, but you need to read them first, and understand them, i don't mind people disagreeing with me, it's their right, - it is not good to be insulting and rude just because you are angry. i haven't given you just cause for that.

[Beloren]

Not really, you never really address any criticisms to your premise.

Really? you need to read to the end, I may sometimes waffle a bit, but it's build up to answering you, read the whole thing.

It's hardly rational when you simply do not account for the backlash it would cause. Of course it's not fair, and the fact that there are other options that would be both fairer and logical seems of no concern to you, because you have only your vision and have little regard for anything or anyone else.

It's not rational argument because I don't account for backlash?

Seriously, so everything is irrational because in your opinion I haven't considered backlash? right.. Well Iif you read what I wrote I have often given my opinion on so called backlash.


And this my just be a point we disagree on and hard to prove, but,

1. Really, it's the hardcore blood elf horde crowd that would be the ones mainly upset - seeing the horde isn't losing blood elves and isn't losing nightborne, - I expect the smae usual tantrums any spoilt child so use to getting favourite pickings all his life will make when it doesn't go his way.

2. I expect quite a lot of the horde fans who have despised blood elves running rampant to actually cheer this move alongside ALL the alliance fans, including those currently playing horde because their faction is dead

Seeing that the loss of Quel'thalas and Suramar city will prompt the gain of the Drakkari and Zul'drak , the Amani and Zul'aman, the Frakki and Zul'farrak, a new Mag'har orc city (in Borean Tundra centred around Warsong Hold or they can make it in Ashenvale), improvements for goblins including the return of Kezan, lost isles and eventually new Undermine city, the shifting over to the horde of Pandaren main assets.

Backlash? the only one I foresee are angry horde elf fans.

3. Certainly not all horde elf players, because of all the people that play blood elves, I am roughly estimating 75% don't care about cities and lore stuff, many of them are either:
a) players from the alliance, stuck on the horde because they can't play on the alliance because everyone's left
b) gamers who play because it's the only model they can stand, not the lore, and since the horde isn't losing the model there will be no backlash
c) gamers who pick blood elves because of the racial for tactical reasons (or a combo of the others)

4. There are horde elf fans who don't even realise, that they don't like the horde, they only like the blood elves and Nightborne because they like the high elf fantasy and the kaldorei fantasy that it is birthed form that sort of high magic, high civilization thing - this was exclusively alliance, but when it went to the horde, and was better than everything on the alliance, they switched.

These players will be the ones that move. Some would get angry for a while, then switch to the alliance, others would happily switch back, or maintain toons on both (I will be in this last group). There are just enough of these, anything from 1/8th to 1/4 of the blood elf and Nightborne player population moving back is all it takes to fix the alliance number gap.

This is not factoring other players who play tons of other races, and retired players fed up of the horde and alliance in wow that stopped being the horde an the alliance long ago and quit wow or only play classic returning.




Where is your metric for over estimating the backlash? I certainly haven't ignored that there will be some, I have alluded to it in previous posts, but in appropriate context. You just haven't read it, or you have and just ignored it.


The point of what is going on is to drum up excitement again, excitement in the alliance, and also in the horde, but this time it is the alliance for being the alliance, no more high elf themes on the horde or night elven ones in the Nightborne, it all goes back to the alliance and the alliance is made to look good for having them and interesting for being the alliance, The horde is not abandoned, the horde is made good for being the horde, or improved on to.. the difference is the alliance is going to shine brighter for a little while because the horde has been looking good for a long time, adding improvements to it are not going to stand out as much as adding improvements to the alliance. But the horde is going to get improvement - i have written this repeatedly and extensively, but it appears you have neither read properly or seriously considered what i am saying

You've just looked at "horde lose blood elves " - which isn't what i was saying exactly, and gone - this is crazy, blizzard wouldn't dare do something like this, the backlash would be enormous - and concluded that it's delusional, and said as much.

If you're going to fully criticise a person's comment, at least consider all of it first, then you can reply with insults of delusional and crazy.

Also the leap in logic that removing elven identity from the horde, but not the models, will fix the appeal issues between factions, is, yeah, an utter leap on logic without any solid basis.

So you have a high controversial idea that would alienate a lot of the playerbase, and no evidence it would work. It's neither fair, nor logical, nor rational.

First, read the response above, because it applies to this too. I have gone step by step on how/why I predict it will go well. I don't know the future so there is a chance it fails, blizzard took a huge risk when they first took the high elves to the horde, it was a much bigger risk then because the factions were truly distinct back then, and this was a bigger change, it wasn't made to make the factions more diverse, that was not the goal, it was made to populate the horde so that the gameplay issues would be fixed.

It won't be anywhere as controversial a move now, not after we've seen the night elves and forsaken lose stuff, and seen more alliance elves go over, having the high elves being restored has been widely anticipated,

the claimed backlash of the horde if alliance get high elf models, then high elf skins NEVER HAPPENED, and I predicted this if you scroll back a thousand or so pages in this very post - I pointed out people won't care or abandon the horde in droves if the alliance got the model, because it is already on the horde what did it do? It excited the alliance (not quite as much as high elves, and that moved pissed the alliance off also) but it excited the alliance, the horde hardly cared and got on. The only people that were angry were the very very loud vocal minority who are the ones still making it seem like it would be the ned of the world if high elves were playable, and feel the same way if NPC blood elves move back to the alliance , even if Silvermoon and Suramar go with them.

Even in my proposal, the horde elves would get a new city down the line, either two, or just one new one that both groups live together, but it will not be high elf design or any of the kaldorei designs, it would be new one, new architecture - i have no problem with it looking very cool. The whole point of this is not to give the horde crappy stuff or deny cool stuff, I don't hate the horde, and it's good for the game if both factions get great stuff. So let the new city look great, but it must be something that fits more in line with the horde, so it shouldn't go for delicate flower beauty /fragile look that Silvermoon and Suramar have - that look is in line with high elf fantasy and the Night elven kaldorei lore, it needs to be stronger, more imposing, - think a better version of Naz'jatar city or Castle Nathria in Revendreth, - or it could be something totally new, whatever it is it just needs to be cool

But I have said all this before. Pointed out it's more than just models involved here, the point here is fixing the factions, improving the alliance which is a great necessity, and in a way that balances out the factions to restore their theme, I feel a lot of players would appreciate this. I think you're the one far too overconfident in your assessment, because you're attached to the horde elf feelings of loyalty, and don't realise you are a minority. I do not ignore that there will be backlash, it would be nothing like on the scale of when the Nightborne a night elf sub-race went horde, or when the blood elves went horde, seeing players are use to this sort of things, and in this case, it's not horde races going alliance, but rather the alliance races gaining their things back - most of the game population is aware the the high elves are alliance based and so are the kaldorei.. it's been in the lore since the beginning, those who don't know because they've only played the game, would be made aware of it by the devs in game when they make a show of the high elves returning and the kaldorei rising up.

The fact that you simply do not consider the backlash such decision would cause. That's entirely irrational. Your premise would be bound to truly upset a lot of the playerbase and your only response to that is "they'd deal with it"? It's profoundly naive and silly.

I don't know what's worse, your unwarranted confidence on your deeply flawed premise, or your complete lack of concern about the backlash such an implementation would cause.

There are so many other ways to uplift the alliance, and yet you continue to peddle the most asinine premise of removing something that ahs been Horde identity for over 15 years and expect no backlash. And also dumbs down the game removing in universe agency of the groups for a simplistic dichotomy.

It's bad in every aspect, your logic is flawed, and your lack of accounting for the backlash it would cause it's hilariously tone deaf.

]

You just insult and criticise, you are using horrible words that aren't true, as the two replies above answer this question, if you had read what I wrote in earlier replies and responses to you, you would see that I had indeed on several occasions, responded to you and had explained my rational behind it to. To then just nonchalantly or vindictively claim it is irrationally shows either a lack of due diligence or vindictiveness motivated by emo anger rather than logic or sense.

I have gone into much greater detail as to why I think this will go extremely well. I'm not God, so i can't tell the future, but I think I'm fairly accurate well, I have known this community for 15 years, understood when things are really popular, and when things are just a few loud voices, known the difference between forum squatters and gamers who have opinions and desires but will never grace the forums and would play whatever is tossed to them, something will genuinely make them more excited, other things less, but they won't come on forums to say.

Warcraft may still be popular, but it inspires gamers far less than it use to, and this is because this approach they've done, has weaned a lot of people off. Wow was at its most inspirational in the more traditional setting, it got people into it both game and lore wise, and they started changing so much both game and lore wise.

Some changes are good, this is not a criticism about change, change is good, but there are types of changes that are not, mixing the alliance in with the horde in the long term was very bad, in the short term, it helped stabilise horde numbers, right now, it is doing no good, so the best response is to take the alliance themes our t the blood elves who remain on the horde, and out of the Nightborne who will also remain horde playable, and m make a show of these being back on the alliance, while filling the gap they leave with cool and interesting things for orcs, trolls, tauren, goblins, pandas, vulpera, forsaken - until you can shape the remnant blood elves and remnant nightborne into something new.


You may not agree with my conclusions or my estimates, but you need to read them first, and understand them, i don't mind people disagreeing with me, it's their right, - it is not good to be insulting and rude just because you are angry. i haven't given you just cause for that.

If by your own admission, the vocal minority you claim is quite vocal, doesn't that qualify is backlash?