1. #23301
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Wasn't it from the documentary on WoW that they added Blood Elves to the Horde because Horde players were complaining that their girlfriends didn't want to play with them because they couldn't make a 'pretty' race.
    And the point is?

    Most lore decisions in lore are based on out of universe considerations, it doesn't make them "less lore" than any other developments, because you know, they were added to the lore itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Now the alliance needs the similar fix, but all it would take is merely restoring the assets it's lost, nothing drastic like taking a core horde themed race over (like occurred in TBC)
    Yeah I am sorry, but crap like this is just stressing the point this is talking to a wall.

    You legit think it's a cogent point to compare the BE's on BC being made Horde when High Elves were alliance for 2 years around WarII and left, to removing BE identity from the Horde when it has been part of the Horde for 15 years, and are still part of it.

    "nothing drastic" "just restoring assets it lost" "merely"

    I'm done with your disingenuous minimization of what you are proposing. I'm done engaging with your garbage idea.

    Just because it seems unrealistic to your or you feel I have no awareness of what I'm actually asking for because it "triggers" you so much is not sufficient.
    Like you DO realize that I am pro High Elf? You DO realize I would be personally happy if BE's rejoined the alliance, right? And even so I think your idea is crap.

    You really think I MUST be pro BE-anti alliance to not like your idea, when again, your idea is just bad ffs.

  2. #23302
    Let's do a little "what if?" scenario with just the first four allied races.

    Let's say Blizzard decides to go the path of least effort but most number of options for everyone and basically has allied races inherit as much as possible (with a few exceptions here and there) from their parent races. That would leave mainly Vulpera needing stuff made specifically for them which, since they don't have hairstyles as an option at all, let's assume boils down to more fur colors & patterns, eye options, ear options, snout options, and jewelry.

    Breaking down our "what if?" regarding just the first four, we have:

    Lightforged: Gain the same skin color, hair color, hairstyle, and jewelry options as Draenei, with perhaps some different colors for the jewelry to fit more with their golden tattoos and light theme. Lightforged and standard Draenei retain distinct eye color options.

    Highmountain: Gain the skin and detail options that standard Tauren have (like the hair flowers), and both races get the other's unique face/body paints. High Mountain and standard Tauren retain distinct horns.

    Void Elves: Gain the same ear size options, facial hair, hair colors and hairstyles that Blood Elves have while Blood Elves gain Void Elf facial hair options, hair colors, and hairstyles (obviously without tentacles). Void Elves and Blood Elves retain distinction through very little outside of certain eye colors and jewelry. (I know this is a point of contention but this is just part of the "what if?").

    Nightborne: Gain all the Night Elf skin tones except for the Night Warrior one, all the Night Elf hairstyles and hair colors, face options, the non-vine jewelry, and eye color options except for the Night Warrior one. Night Elves and Nightborne retain a not insignificant amount of distinction by virtue of their model and idle stance differences, and Night Elf facial/body markings. (Again I realize this would be another point of contention, especially since this assumes the model stays as is).

    What happens if this is the path Blizzard chooses to go? Would we see Horde players really consider swapping to Alliance? How much outrage would there be over doing this? Even if a significant number of people did hop to Alliance, would they be endgame progression minded players, or people more inclined to RP and casual play? What are the pros and cons of Blizzard doing this?

    I'm genuinely curious to see how what people have to say about this "what if?" and what answers they have for the questions at the end.

  3. #23303
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Anyway, I've played horde many a time and I still do. Blood elves join the horde, cool story bro, I mean whatever, it doesn't sit right, doesn't make sense, but I'm just here to play the game, so if they want to have humans and orcs be buddies and fight dwarves and trolls... whatever, cool story.

    I can tell you this though, they were a lot more engaging when it was humans/elves vs orcs/trolls - sure these groups could get a whole bunch of new allies. Sure the horde isn't limited to races westerners would perceive as ugly - you gotta have eye candy both ways right. But it became less appealing when you started mixing the themes of the two factions up.

    If you ask me, it would be better for the horde's cool and beauty to come from something that isn't alliance in character/theme or presentation. Some of you have wrongly perceived I don't want the horde to have pretty stuff - you think this is motivated by some notion that the horde should all be bestial races westerners would consider ugly, have societies and civilizations westerners would consider primitive and savage ...

    Oh my God, you have got me TOTALLY wrong. Firstly, i don't perceive that as bad or ugly. I'm more a purist, if night elves are presented as fierce but highly civilised living in a rural setting but having an advanced culture and civilization that may be in ruins but the capability to rebuild - i want to see what I was told about and what was written for them - I don't want to see that anywhere else. - if you assume that I don't like rural you've got me totally wrong.

    I would have given the horde space goats instead, an advanced civilization, none human, but exotically beautiful. Because I'm not against the horde getting nice things, beautiful things or cool things, I'm against it getting alliance things, not because I hate it or have some massive issue with it, but because I feel it ruins it - ruins what I felt was special about warcraft - can play ESO and the other myriad titles out there if i want elves and orcs to be friends (I do play ESO too, not as much as wow though). Yet I've lived with it.

    I felt the horde needed a more human race like race anyway, decades ago I said as much and felt it was humans they should customise. That the forsaken, shouldn't all be bent over zombies, but slimmer upright versions maybe the vampire twist to them - as a means of solving the popularity issue. At the end of the day, I now realise, the horde needed image surgery. Whether you did it via humans, elves or draenei or nothing related to the alliance, you needed to work at it.

    I would have introduce half orcs, new races that I'd have made interesting and magnificent. Naz'jatar, Pandaria, Sky Reach of the Arrakoa are all examples of something not based on human or human like civilizations (like high elves and night elves have in the lore and game) that would have sufficed. And in fact still can.

    It just so happens that now, there is a great need for this sort of shift to happen - and it so happens that consolidating the faction themes could really help and improve both of them, with great projected long term benefits. Avoiding it because you don't want to take from the horde is not going to fix things. For the alliance to pull players from the horde, the horde is going to have to lose something to the alliance, the alliance is going to have to be more attractive, and as a dev, you need to do what it takes to make that happen. Just because your horde favouring cronies would be angry or upset shouldn't stop you.. do what needs to be done now, you can turn it back later if you feel you need to, but you can't be afraid of doing it if it can really solve such a problem.

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    Tanaria, you are just saying that because you're angry, and upset. And if other readers aren't smart enough to actually read the context, you rely on your good will stored up to sway them.. maybe that's your tactic.. they only need read to perceive what is going on.

    in game lore narratives are constructs, the devs can change to suit whatever purpose and players are meant to interpret to the narrative of the side they support, it means nothing. I'm not going to tell you what to think, I have my own views on the in game events and tbh, they bear no relation to what I'm saying or proposing.. because such things always demand new lore and narrative.

    or what do you think a new night elf city or carving up the zones as you have been talking about would mean. It would mean new lore, new narrative, this is not established lore, it is not canon, you cannot accuse anyone who suggests this or expands to include how they feel the story can lead to this as headcanon, that's not what the term is used for.

    A developer decides what needs to be done and then write the narrative to make it happen. In this case, high elves need to be playable, all my proposals have done was suggest a way this could happen in the narrative.. it is not lore, because it isn't written yet - this is why it is a proposal or a suggestion, it's not very logical (or sensible) to call it headcanon... it's not smart.

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    and for you too @Ardensao
    It won't.

    Alliance has pretty good racials that often you see horde players complaining are too good, that's not causing the shift to happen.

    in classic the horde had substantially better racials, and were still not the most popular faction, in fact were grossly out numbered. Racials is not the solution nor the problem, they can help lure and entice, but they are not the cause, and buffing the alliance ones won't solve your problem, it will just imbalance the game and cause another bout of complaints from all the competitive gamers - people who don't care about which faction is popular but just want to play the game.

    They have to look deeper, and if they do, they will see what I have seen, image and popularity. The alliance has a terrible image at the moment, it's the lame and dull faction. Do something that will excite the alliance, and make the alliance cool. High elves returning and the kaldorei rising up will definitely excite the alliance, giving them cool stuff and writing them and their races up cool that would definitely attract.

    They need something splashy and incredible.. at they have this in the high elves and the some total f everything the night elves are.. if they gather that together rather than spread it between the two factions, it can look incredible, short of that they'd have to give the alliance an impressive , beautiful and very cool race. Basically alliance dream. The beauty of the high elves, meets the civilization of the night elves, meets the coolness of the orcs, the nobility of the humans and the edginess of the illidari - but does all these things better.

    In addition to that, they'd have to live with the horde continuing to have alliance influences in it via the way the blood elves and Nightborne are - which I'm sure you're fine with, but that comes at a cost. If you ask me, the easier solution is just to give the damn high elves and do it properly, and fix the Kaldorei so they 're amazing - no more broken night elves, subdued and used to make the horde look good.
    all the covenant drama was because of a miniscule difference in DPS. a lot of people chose to join a covenant that they didn't like just for that.

    giving the alliance better racials would lead many people to change factions. if what you really want to increase the population of the alliance you just have to do that.

    the alliance complained about the horde racials until blizz started nerfing those racials.
    even now the alliance complains about the racial troll.

  4. #23304
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Putting my post from How to make the Alliance more popular here as well, as it tackles both the High elf issue and the imbalance issue.

    Thinking that Void elves, in the way they were released and the delay in giving them anything of a High elf setting apart from the High elf model, would help balance the faction imbalance, is plain naive. Void elves were released as blueberry elves with very little lore, and many people did not like that. Especially not the tentacles, many people find them disgusting? The only thing they got was warm skin tones and blue eyes recently. Ofcourse that will not fix the imbalance at all because a much better choice is still available on the Horde.

    If they want to see the slightest change in numbers between the factions they can start by giving some natural hairstyles and haircolours to Void elves, since it’s now probably too late to be adding separate High elves, so might as well make Void elves capable of looking like high elves. Ofcourse the hairstyles and haircolours can be borrowed from races different to Blood elves, such as Kul’tirans, dwarves etc.

    Then, there is the lore issue and the capitals issue. Void elves and Night elves no longer have a proper home. Night elves are homeless refugees in Stormwind, and Void elves have some tents in Telogrus, which really looks very limited. However, if Telogrus rift was to be expanded into a proper starter questing area, with shining void paths, dark void, shiny trees, and a capital inspired by both void elves and high elves to have dark blue and gold decor in it, as well as purple crystal decor, would make Void elves so much more appealing. And the restrictions for Allied races should be removed imo, as Blood elves are available for new players to choose right away, while void elves are still gated behind content.

    As stated, Night elves are homeless at the moment. They are a pride civilization and should rebuild from scratch. It has been said they are beginning to rebuild in Mount Hyjal. Great. Mount Hyjal is a beautiful area and could be expanded to include a Night elf capital and a questing area for Night elves. With crystal clear lakes, swans, new modeled tigers available in the capital, temples of Elune, houses etc. Tigers are super popular but their models are dating back to Vanilla.

    Now that customization for humans is practically complete, they should focus on reworking their character models. Ofcourse they will not be popular enough if they are just stuck with Vanilla models that look bulky (male human shoulders and arms) and have chunky thighs (hello female humans). Also, their running animations also need an update, females run like they have weed themselves lol. Check the humans available in character creation in Blade & Soul and Black Dessert, and then come tell me that our humans models look cool or pleasing to the eye in comparison.

    Dwarves received GREAT customization, but again no updates to animations. Female running and casting animations are as bad as humans’, even worse. Dating back to Vanilla. Same issue with Night elves, animations dating back to Vanilla and male Nelves look like they are having a headache when they cast.

    If all these things happened to better the Alliance ofcourse a lot more new players would be attracted, some casuals and semi-hardcores would probably switch over, and if free factions changes became available for a limited time at least, some hardcore guilds would consider it. Our racials have been fine for a long time, those are no longer the issue. Coolness and costs are the issues.
    I think there would be some sense on making VE more appealing and more accessible, but I think that at the end of the day, any aesthetic improvements a faction get are still going to be dampened by the meta level.

    The gameplay advantages are stacked up in favor of the Horde as a self-perpetuating machine. Better guilds on the Horde, better raiders, shorter queues, people that want to have a better experience will join the Horde.

    No matter how many aesthetic and convenience improvements the Alliance is given, it will hardly matter if there's a real eficiency impact of choosing faction.

    A huge sore spot on Ravenmoon's premise, is that they simply do not account for that at all, and believe that by restricting BE's on the Horde, people will flock to the alliance. That's dumb, but even premises that seek to augment the appeal of the alliance fail to address how to approach the meta game aspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Let's do a little "what if?" scenario with just the first four allied races.

    Let's say Blizzard decides to go the path of least effort but most number of options for everyone and basically has allied races inherit as much as possible (with a few exceptions here and there) from their parent races. That would leave mainly Vulpera needing stuff made specifically for them which, since they don't have hairstyles as an option at all, let's assume boils down to more fur colors & patterns, eye options, ear options, snout options, and jewelry.

    Breaking down our "what if?" regarding just the first four, we have:

    Lightforged: Gain the same skin color, hair color, hairstyle, and jewelry options as Draenei, with perhaps some different colors for the jewelry to fit more with their golden tattoos and light theme. Lightforged and standard Draenei retain distinct eye color options.

    Highmountain: Gain the skin and detail options that standard Tauren have (like the hair flowers), and both races get the other's unique face/body paints. High Mountain and standard Tauren retain distinct horns.

    Void Elves: Gain the same ear size options, facial hair, hair colors and hairstyles that Blood Elves have while Blood Elves gain Void Elf facial hair options, hair colors, and hairstyles (obviously without tentacles). Void Elves and Blood Elves retain distinction through very little outside of certain eye colors and jewelry. (I know this is a point of contention but this is just part of the "what if?").

    Nightborne: Gain all the Night Elf skin tones except for the Night Warrior one, all the Night Elf hairstyles and hair colors, face options, the non-vine jewelry, and eye color options except for the Night Warrior one. Night Elves and Nightborne retain a not insignificant amount of distinction by virtue of their model and idle stance differences, and Night Elf facial/body markings. (Again I realize this would be another point of contention, especially since this assumes the model stays as is).

    What happens if this is the path Blizzard chooses to go? Would we see Horde players really consider swapping to Alliance? How much outrage would there be over doing this? Even if a significant number of people did hop to Alliance, would they be endgame progression minded players, or people more inclined to RP and casual play? What are the pros and cons of Blizzard doing this?

    I'm genuinely curious to see how what people have to say about this "what if?" and what answers they have for the questions at the end.
    I have said for a long time that even if the Alliance gets literal BE options, we wouldn't see a massive exodus of BE players.

    The problem with the narrative that BE players are "held hostage" by the Horde is simplistic and infantalizing; do people really think that swaths of BE players that actually care about progression will flock to the alliance if they got to be the same model?

    There's a big blind spot in the discussions about making the alliance appealing; as long as the alliance is just lesser in terms of meta progression, we won't be seeing any major high end population shifts. We will see just more people roleplaying high elves.

  5. #23305
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I have said for a long time that even if the Alliance gets literal BE options, we wouldn't see a massive exodus of BE players.

    The problem with the narrative that BE players are "held hostage" by the Horde is simplistic and infantalizing; do people really think that swaths of BE players that actually care about progression will flock to the alliance if they got to be the same model?

    There's a big blind spot in the discussions about making the alliance appealing; as long as the alliance is just lesser in terms of meta progression, we won't be seeing any major high end population shifts. We will see just more people roleplaying high elves.
    I share you sentiments. As much as there's likely a significant swathe of players who'd appreciate carbon copy Blood Elves on the Alliance, I don't think it would actually cause a noticeable shift in population or Alliance endgame progression engagement. I mean we're more than half way there already in regards to visual similarities between Void and Blood Elves and no sigh of such shift has occurred yet.

    Still I'm curious what others think. I'm also curious about the pros and cons of such a move by Blizzard and the potential fallout it could cause.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-01-31 at 09:19 PM.

  6. #23306
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    ....
    Sometimes the corect solutions lies in the unthinkable

    And it is the foolish seeming things that are what it takes.

  7. #23307
    [QUOTE=MyWholeLifeIsThunder;52983834]
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I'm done with your disingenuous minimization of what you are proposing. I'm done engaging with your garbage idea.
    You claim to be a pro-High elfer Thunder, but you seem to be more interested in disagreeing with us and attempting to explain why our ideas will not work, but I have yet to see a post from you so far that makes any suggestions. All I have seen you do here in several of your posts is just bash @ravenmoon and call him names. We get it you don't agree with him, we do not agree with some of his ideas either, but instead of just bashing ravenmoon and telling us that our ideas will not work, why don't you try to propose some ideas for a change then?

  8. #23308
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    all the covenant drama was because of a miniscule difference in DPS. a lot of people chose to join a covenant that they didn't like just for that.

    giving the alliance better racials would lead many people to change factions. if what you really want to increase the population of the alliance you just have to do that.

    the alliance complained about the horde racials until blizz started nerfing those racials.
    even now the alliance complains about the racial troll.
    You know i respect that you feel that, I know others think that this is the case, but I'm not convinced it is sufficient. Racials is just one part of the argument, there are other sides, and racials matter to certain populations not everyone. Besides I think they are in a good place, don't touch them. There are other reasons and better solutions for this problem as I mentioned bove, but that's my opinion. I disagree with you.

  9. #23309
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I share you sentiments. As much as there's likely a significant swathe of players who'd appreciate carbon copy Blood Elves on the Alliance, I don't think it would actually cause a noticeable shift in population or Alliance endgame progression engagement. I mean we're more than half way there already in regards to visual similarities between Void and Blood Elves and no sigh of such shift has occurred yet.

    Still I'm curious what others think. I'm also curious about the pros and cons of such a move by Blizzard and the potential fallout it could cause.
    Indeed. A big issue is that a lot of BElf players just don't give a crap about the Alliance or actively dislike it lol.

  10. #23310
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I have said for a long time that even if the Alliance gets literal BE options, we wouldn't see a massive exodus of BE players.

    The problem with the narrative that BE players are "held hostage" by the Horde is simplistic and infantalizing; do people really think that swaths of BE players that actually care about progression will flock to the alliance if they got to be the same model?

    There's a big blind spot in the discussions about making the alliance appealing; as long as the alliance is just lesser in terms of meta progression, we won't be seeing any major high end population shifts. We will see just more people roleplaying high elves.
    I said that, a few 100 pages back. in response to those who felt that plyaable high elves would ruin the horde, they were just so keen to prevent the alliance getting the blood elf model, they lost perspective and didn't think.

    The horde will not collapse if alliance get high elves, I keep saying that, it won't, if blizzard give high elves in a cool and exciting way - emphasis on the cool and exciting way, show it up, make it good, enviable - make the alliance the only place ti experience that very alliance theme the elves have.. then it will draw just enough players over, but won't jeopardise the horde, especially if you keep the models on the horde.

    It is is image you are changing.. the alliance n=image needs to be improved drastically in the population. The population needs to be excited about playing the alliance without necessarily hating the horde. The most effective way to do this is the Return of the High elves and the Rise of the Kaldorei, because elves make the alliance lot most excited, and it's what they yearn for the most - it also suits them very well in the Warcraft universe because it was built around humans/elves/dwarves being one way, and orcs, goblins/trolls being another. This is the foundation all the lore and world has been spun around.. it's like it's hard wired.


    Sure you can change that, but it wont' be the same Warcraft, you'd break that Warcraft. Sure the new one could be good too for what it is, but it's going to be something different. The Klingons and the federation in star trek Next generation were allies afterall, star trek didn't fall apart - but star trek WAS NOT A GAME that had systems and a war mode based on two opposing themes (factions) at constant war with each other.

    Do you know how many times I have suggested blizzard remove the faction limitation, let orcs and humans mesh, or create more factions, go back to individual race focus.. do you know what there response is every time? This wouldn't be Warcraft, Warcraft is alliance vs horde - the core of the RTs, the human like races vs the orcs.

    Well if they want that properly, they need to fix what's going on.

  11. #23311
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    You know i respect that you feel that, I know others think that this is the case, but I'm not convinced it is sufficient. Racials is just one part of the argument, there are other sides, and racials matter to certain populations not everyone. Besides I think they are in a good place, don't touch them. There are other reasons and better solutions for this problem as I mentioned bove, but that's my opinion. I disagree with you.
    what happened with the covenants is a clear sign that people will go where they have more dps.

  12. #23312
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post

    You claim to be a pro-High elfer Thunder, but you seem to be more interested in disagreeing with us and attempting to explain why our ideas will not work, but I have yet to see a post from you so far that makes any suggestions. All I have seen you do here in several of your posts is just bash @ravenmoon and call him names. We get it you don't agree with him, we do not agree with some of his ideas either, but instead of just bashing ravenmoon and telling us that our ideas will not work, why don't you try to propose some ideas for a change then?
    Lol sometimes I forget we are not the same 5 people argument and that new people arrive here! Honestly the last few weeks of conversation are really not representative of the usual discourse, not my personal contributions. That aside, I'm sorry if it comes across as some sort of persecution against Ravenmoon, but I will never in good conscience agree with a premise that would take away 15 years of identity of a faction, and that is beside the belief it wouldn't even work.

    That's my major issue with his premise and I can't possible see it as a good idea.

    As for Ideas themselves, basically, I don't care for enforced faction dichotomy, and I would rather there be an overlap, but some small things that would set HE and BE aside; a good example of these are Alleria's Ranger Aesthetics. They come across as a time capsule to a pre third war era of Ranger, which could be reclaimed by her followers or through Quel'danil High Elves. The whole warpaint/braids/feathers, a more nature based approach contrasting to the more arcane path of the BE's.







    Taking into account the VE hairstyles, adding alternative meshes to the tentacles as braids could work wonderfully for that aesthetic.

    As for Hair colors themselves, I'd go for less saturated colors, so that they also fit thematically with VE





    And in terms of hairstyles, to further create that small cultural distinction, to add human hairstyles on VE's rather than BE ones -overall on the context to give AR more hairstyles, mostly from the CR-



    So overall for High Elves I would expand that Aesthetic we see on Alleria but unused on playable characters, with Braids, Feathers and Warpaint. It would give High Elves -through VE models- a unique flavor not presently seen in game.

    High Elves have so much potential, even as a part of VE's, but yeah, I just won't say that taking away 15 years of elven identity on the Horde is a good idea, and it really irks me that some people would be so cavalier about the impact that would cause on a lot of other's experience for their own confort.
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2021-01-31 at 09:51 PM.

  13. #23313
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Indeed. A big issue is that a lot of BElf players just don't give a crap about the Alliance or actively dislike it lol.
    In my experience a lot of BElf players don't really give a crap about a lot of stuff, wow stopped being interesting lore wise or making sense a long tiem ago, for various reasons

    mMost of htese stem from the blood leves going horde but arne't limited to this.. a lot of people i know play blood elves because they were the only models they could stand.

    they use to be exciteda bout the lore too, and htey ddin't lik or agree with the whole faction swapping of the elves, but the game > than the lore.

    THere are a lot of players who don't care at all who Silvermoon belongs to, so your predictions of terrible backlash are unconvincing to me.


    There is maybe around a quarter of the Belf population that cares about such things, a good deal of them are alliance players who've moved over because the alliance is dull and no one wants to stay, some of those are former alliance lovers, that just simply love the blood elves because of their high elf fantasy and will follow them wherever they go.

    A game gets exciting when it's gameplay is fun, but it's presentation is also cool. there are still the vast majority of people who play this game because they love the fantasy theme. they may not be interested in the lore right now, because it doesn't make sense on so many levels in so many departments. But you start fixing that and presenting it well, make a cool presentation for high elves like you did for blood leves, you will start drawing people not just back to the alliance but to the game and the lore.

    Use that opportunity to centre the horde correctly and drive a dynamic well proportioned and evenly themed story based on your roots almost like a second start, do it well, advertise it well, and you'll breathe new life into the wole project

    1. You'd get people who long since stopped caring or paying attention to the content and vibe of the game get back into it.. This is your biggest asset, people are drawn to great stories, backed up by great scenes, graphics and in a way they can understand, it is an asset to use not a liability to be tossed aside - just bear in mind, that it wo n't mean much if your game isn't fun, so you have to make sure
    2. You will get people crazy about the alliance and they'll play it, but they won't abandon the horde either, as the horde is cool. If blood elves swap fro that high elf state to proper bad boys, anti-hero types embracing the sort of ferocity TFT and TBC were framing them as, distancing from high elves, even if it meant moving out of Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and getting a kick ass city of their own elsewhere 1 or 2 expansions later, people will love it. Even if the high elves shine for the alliance for a little while.


    Do i know any of this for sure? No, I do not, I can't prove a word I've said, nor can any developer or senior exec, if you love a thing greatly and have worked on it , designed it all your life, you're going to get a knack and instinct for it, if your instincts were what originally put this product on the map, guess what, follow your gut.

    They strayed away from their original premise, and it's been down hill , there was a charm about the original, at the ned of the day, they have to look at what they have and decide for themselves, you and I arguing over it and discussing trying to prove one way or the other is immaterial, because we can't. We have our instinct and our desires, so we can only talk, and our discussions aren't always fair either some responses are driven by negative emotions and obscure what needs to be seen and done.

  14. #23314
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    As for Ideas themselves, basically, I don't care for enforced faction dichotomy, and I would rather there be an overlap, but some small things that would set HE and BE aside; a good example of these are Alleria's Ranger Aesthetics. They come across as a time capsule to a pre third war era of Ranger, which could be reclaimed by her followers or through Quel'danil High Elves. The whole warpaint/braids/feathers, a more nature based approach contrasting to the more arcane path of the BE's.
    Great! It's lovely to get ideas from everyone and I can clearly see there are agreements across all of us. I apologise if I misunderstood you, I just felt that we are not achieving much by just arguing with ravenmoon. Besides, some of his ideas are worth keeping in mind, ofcourse we will not all be able to agree with everything, and the devs have the final say. But it would be nice to put differences aside here and there and look at what we agree on, which in my opinion is much more than our disagreements.

  15. #23315
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Great! It's lovely to get ideas from everyone and I can clearly see there are agreements across all of us. I apologise if I misunderstood you, I just felt that we are not achieving much by just arguing with ravenmoon. Besides, some of his ideas are worth keeping in mind, ofcourse we will not all be able to agree with everything, and the devs have the final say. But it would be nice to put differences aside here and there and look at what we agree on, which in my opinion is much more than our disagreements.
    And I do agree with the sentiment, but I really can't get past his cavalier attitude to what his premise entails.

    I feel we have been requesting playable High Elves on the alliance for so long, asking to share with people unwilling to, that now seeing someone ostensibly on the pro HE side asking for the Horde and BE's to be stripped for 15 years of their identity goes against the ethos of what we have been striving for.

    And Ravenmoon himself has said he doesn't even particularly care about HE's, so it also vexes me he is using this thread to spout his rhetoric that has less to do with High Elves and their potential and more with enforcing dichotomy so that the alliance has all even themes.

  16. #23316
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Great! It's lovely to get ideas from everyone and I can clearly see there are agreements across all of us. I apologise if I misunderstood you, I just felt that we are not achieving much by just arguing with ravenmoon. Besides, some of his ideas are worth keeping in mind, ofcourse we will not all be able to agree with everything, and the devs have the final say. But it would be nice to put differences aside here and there and look at what we agree on, which in my opinion is much more than our disagreements.
    Thunder is a supporter of High Elves for the Alliance, just not at the expense of Horde losing Blood Elves/Silvermoon and Nightborne/Suramar. I feel the same as he does. The Horde doesn't need to lose anything for the Alliance to gain their High Elves. With that said, since Void Elves were added, and now with customization being the focus rather than allied races, it seems we'll have to accept Alliance High Elves via Void Elf customization (just as we must accept Wildhammer via Dwarf customization).

    With that in mind, I try to advocate for options that will work to fulfill the Alliance High Elf fantasy in addition to options that also lean more into the Void aspect of the Ren'dorei. I'd also dearly love if the story in-game reflected the Alliance High Elf story actually moving forward and having them officially join the Ren'dorei so that the in-game narrative supports the idea that Void Elves truly are the Alliance High Elves.

    I think the biggest issue with Raven's ideas is that he's trying to turn the clock back. That just won't work imo. Time marches ever forward and the game evolves as a result. The Horde has changed drastically from its roots in the RTS and Vanilla, and trying to change it back to that just isn't something I think Blizzard is willing to do.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-01-31 at 10:24 PM.

  17. #23317
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Lol sometimes I forget we are not the same 5 people argument and that new people arrive here! Honestly the last few weeks of conversation are really not representative of the usual discourse, not my personal contributions. That aside, I'm sorry if it comes across as some sort of persecution against Ravenmoon, but I will never in good conscience agree with a premise that would take away 15 years of identity of a faction, and that is beside the belief it wouldn't even work.

    That's my major issue with his premise and I can't possible see it as a good idea.

    As for Ideas themselves, basically, I don't care for enforced faction dichotomy, and I would rather there be an overlap, but some small things that would set HE and BE aside; a good example of these are Alleria's Ranger Aesthetics. They come across as a time capsule to a pre third war era of Ranger, which could be reclaimed by her followers or through Quel'danil High Elves. The whole warpaint/braids/feathers, a more nature based approach contrasting to the more arcane path of the BE's.
    The problem is it doesn't matter if it's 2 years or 20 years of Belves in the horde, Belf /Nightborne simply don't match or fit the rest of the horde. They never have.. to any new player new to warcraft who gets to experience the whole game. It's so easy to see - Trolls, Tauren, Orcs, Goblins, Pandas, Vulpera even forsaken they're not like these a lot - however night elves, high elves, humans, dwarves, gnomes, Draenei - it's very easy to see.

    The newbie will quickly soon realise that blood elves and Nightborne are very much like the alliance races, and when they check their lore, they'll see high elves and night elves, including Highborne have been in the alliance a lot longer, and the blood elves and Nightborne are very much like them essentially them but signed up to the red banner. With them in it, the horde don't have a unified culture or identity a uniqueness that is worth preserving I might add or restoring/ They have a part horde/part alliance hybrid



    So it doesn't matter if this has been the case for 15 years, it still isn't feeling horde - what it can be articulated as is the alliance on the horde. And what it does is it simply proves to everyone that if you pick the horde, you get better than what's on the alliance.

    It really is that simple. I come on, I play the game, The blood elves are prettier humans, have nicer cities, higher civilization, higher magic, all the things central to the alliance, that the alliance is known for and attractive for are done better on the horde through the blood elves and the Nightborne - why would I be inclined to play the alliance?

    i get my white knight, my Legolas, my shining armour, my good guy, my human type - and the version on the horde is better, it looks better, it's presented cooler... i have no reason to go to the alliance. The horde is doing the alliance better than the alliance.

    If you can't see this, then you're being stubborn and ignoring the issue ( i suspect because you don't want things to change) but if you are going to fix the factions, fix the alliance, this is what needs to change.



    The change can come by the alliance simply having a better elf city, better elf focus in the narrative going forward, and not changing anything about the horde.. horde keep Quel'thalas and Suramar etc, night elves get a new nicer city, high elves come in style, alongside void elves and get something amazing... it will solve the "attraction" issue above, but it won't solve the identity issue.

    Now is identity an issue? not if you are okay with the horde having alliance type races and themes in it. It's not so bad is it, we've had it for 15 years, and the world hasn't ended. It isn't, if I like alliance type things but want to play the horde, the blood elves and Nightborne are a refuge for me - however, knowing htis doesn't change that the horde having a partial alliance identity on it confuses it. Is The dev must decide whether the horde should be unique from the alliance... or not.

    There are dangers to living things as they are, the factions just end up feeling a lot more the same, they have done for nearly 15 years, and this has gotten worse, this side of it is not good, even if it's gone on for 15 years.. and just because it's gone on for 15 years, doesn't mean it should continue.. You must decide whether it is worth continuing with it or not.

    M opinion is irrelevant, if you want the original charm of Warcraft, do not continue with it, change it. If you want that eroded, the only way further is further faction mixing, you'll end up like ESO/Wildstar type systems, this isn't necessarily bad, it's just not the original Warcraft which drew its crowd. And still has a charm and uniqueness the devs have professed is worth keeping.

  18. #23318
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Thunder is a supporter of High Elves for the Alliance, just not at the expense of Horde losing Blood Elves/Silvermoon and Nightborne/Suramar. I feel the same as he does. The Horde doesn't need to lose anything for the Alliance to gain their High Elves. With that said, since Void Elves were added, and now with customization being the focus rather than allied races, it seems we'll have to accept Alliance High Elves via Void Elf customization (just as we must accept Wildhammer via Dwarf customization).

    With that in mind, I try to advocate for options that will work to fulfill the Alliance High Elf fantasy in addition to options that also lean more into the Void aspect of the Ren'dorei. I'd also dearly love if the story in-game reflected the Alliance High Elf story actually moving forward and having them officially join the Ren'dorei so that the in-game narrative supports the idea that Void Elves truly are the Alliance High Elves.
    Indeed, in much ways like now Dwarves include Bronzebeard and Wildhammer, VE's can also approach High Elves, at least from a culturally relevant standpoint if not a wholly encompassing one -cause VE's do kinda stand anathema to light worship itself-

    Nonetheless, it does open the opportunity to High Elves and Void Elves to start working together, specially when their leaders are sisters. Even if we won't most likely ever get the "full" High Elf experience, we can get how they are a continued presence on the world, and how they interact with Void Elves as a political entity and sister group.

    And of course, we could get more focus on High Elves that actively choose to start using void, and see other old HE characters return as active members of the VE following Alleria's path.

    So basically, Void Elves would become compromised of a Void using group of both Blood Elves and High Elves, with High Elves as groups -Silver Covenant for example- still being represented alongside them -like non Worgen Gilnean-

    Then is just about customization options that reflect High Elven identity that can also be made part of the VE one, for example, warpaint and braids like Alleria, but with more VE motifs.



    And more motifs that skirt and blend the line between regular Thalassian and VE



  19. #23319
    I'm always impressed and pleased when I see your work ^_^

  20. #23320
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I'm always impressed and pleased when I see your work ^_^
    Thank you!

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