1. #23321
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    Thunder is a supporter of High Elves for the Alliance, just not at the expense of Horde losing Blood Elves/Silvermoon and Nightborne/Suramar. I feel the same as he does. The Horde doesn't need to lose anything for the Alliance to gain their High Elves. With that said, since Void Elves were added, and now with customization being the focus rather than allied races, it seems we'll have to accept Alliance High Elves via Void Elf customization (just as we must accept Wildhammer via Dwarf customization).

    With that in mind, I try to advocate for options that will work to fulfill that fantasy in addition to options that also lean more into the Void aspect of the Ren'dorei. I'd also dearly love if the story in-game reflected the Alliance High Elf story actually moving forward and having them officially join the Ren'dorei so that the in-game narrative supports the idea that Void Elves truly are the Alliance High Elves.

    I think the biggest issue with Raven's ideas is that he's trying to turn the clock back. That just won't work imo. Time marches ever forward and the game evolves as a result. The Horde has changed drastically from its roots in the RTS and Vanilla, and trying to change it back to that just isn't something I think Blizzard is willing to do.
    And here I disagree sadly. But I hope you understand it is not motivated by horde hate, or horde dislike or some warped racist ideology or any nonsense like that. I'm afraid you'd have to read my response to thunder a few replies up where I expand on this.


    I just have a different view of what it will take to fix the crises. That's all, I think making the alliance elves nicer isn't enough to get the job done , but in addition to that the horde identity issues and the faction state wouldn't be fixed by this.

    i discuss in my reply to Thunder whether identity is an issue, and what it means. some of the options I feel is before blizzard on the matter. I do point out that keeping this as they are isn't the worse thing, and point out the benefits I feel the project stands to gain by restoring the uniqueness of the factions and homing down on those, developing them separately. They could go the other way too, more integration of themes, more elf/alliance stuff on the horde - this isn't necessarily a mistake, and it could also work out well if they make the effort to, I'm just saying it will cause this to cease to be the Warcraft that charmed so many people. Not saying it can't be good. It will be different.

    WC3 did do something different, it didn't swap alliance and horde races over to each other, but it did introduce two new factions, which they later removed.. so no one is saying new can't be good. i have argued more for breaking down faction barriers than against it, but both have their merits and charm.


    But if you wanna keep Warcraft in that charm, you have to do more than just make the alliance better with elf stuff , you have to remove high elf stuff and night elf stuff from its own elves and make them different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Thank you!
    I am too, your art work has always been impressive. Do you remember me telling you that a few years ago? I still am. Even if I disagree with you on some matters.

  2. #23322
    The problem with your suggestion, as I see it, is that you aren't taking into account how your proposals would alienate Horde players who like their Blood Elf and Nightborne themes exactly as they are. Those players should not have their game experience diminished just because the Alliance needs motivation in regards to endgame engagement. Alienating those players will not encourage them to swap to the Alliance but merely engender hostility towards Alliance players and Blizzard for taking such actions.

    It's why I don't believe Blizzard would ever seriously consider the type of drastic changes you propose. Ultimately this "crisis" can't be resolved by taking things away from the Horde just to give them to the Alliance. Pissing off one half of your customer base just to appease the other half is a lose lose situation and I am sure Blizzard sees it that way as well. At best Blizzard will improve existing things and add new things to make the Alliance more attractive, but they aren't going to take anything away from the Horde to achieve that goal.

    You may believe your ideas are the only answer that will work, but truthfully they would only serve to piss off the people you're trying to get to swap sides. The Alliance player base would be blamed for such changes and players would more likely quit the game than swap sides in such a situation. It won't work, and Blizzard will never do it. It's not in the interest of good business or good relations with their customers.

    Does the Alliance need a boost? Yes. But that boost can't come at the expense of Horde players. They are paying customers too and deserve to continue enjoying the content and themes they currently have access to.

  3. #23323
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    what happened with the covenants is a clear sign that people will go where they have more dps.
    True, very true,which is why you want that sort of thing balanced. Gameplay depends on these things a lot, if you favour one faction heavily, not only would it help force people back, but the gameplay becomes very unfair.

    I think you should want the play to be fair, regardless of what happens in the lore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    The problem with your suggestion, as I see it, is that you aren't taking into account how your proposals would alienate Horde players who like their Blood Elf and Nightborne themes exactly as they are. Those players should not have their game experience diminished just because the Alliance needs motivation in regards to endgame engagement. Alienating those players will not encourage them to swap to the Alliance but merely engender hostility towards Alliance players and Blizzard for taking such actions.
    I hear you, and I do understand that these players will be affected.. but I don't think that should stop anyone from making changes they feel are necessary and important, especially if they feel the end result down the line would be better for everyone, not just the alliance in the short but the horde in the long. It's worth suffering the wrath of some.

    And emotions change too, what sounds very bad based on negative hype can turn around once people experience it, and things you thought you might hate you could end up loving. In the least you might not like the belf and NElf themes on the horde changing at first, but they may need to, and you might end up liking that chagne.

    I know people who neither liked the Blood elves going horde, nor the Nightborne too and were very upset with that, but are not only fine with it now, they enjoy it. But if you ask them, they would tell you it would have been better for that not to happen, but they're okay with it and sitll enjoy the game.. For some it's diminished their experience, but they stil like it. Others

    As for me I'm in one of those groups somewhere. I hope you don't think I hate the alliance or the horde or the blood elves or anything like that. I already have the high elf civilization playable on the horde and the kaldorei civilization too, I have what I wanted, albeit it on the other faction and i enjoy them there. Every time I play round, I do get a strong feeling that it's weird and these themes would be much better a climate and setting if it was all on the alliance, and I also sometimes long for the blood elves to be bit more like the Illidari, like they were been set up in TFT when Belves joined Illidan - that edgier sexy/hot but bad boy/bitch sort of character.

    I think it would have been better, not just because i like it, but because it offers something different from what's already on the alliance and isn't taking that theme... it seems I am more eloquent analysing the games problems and coming up with solutions than i am expressing my feelings.

    The current status quo isn't bad, it's okay, I want this to be great, more than okay, and i think the alliance themes on the horde are getting in the way, they either need to inch towards distinguishing hte factions more thematically or total blend. An go hard on which ever option.

    We're talking about improvements here, that would solve some bad of the game issues like alliance depletion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    It's why I don't believe Blizzard would ever seriously consider the type of drastic changes you propose. Ultimately this "crisis" can't be resolved by taking things away from the Horde just to give them to the Alliance. Pissing off one half of your customer base just to appease the other half is a lose lose situation and I am sure Blizzard sees it that way as well. At best Blizzard will improve existing things and add new things to make the Alliance more attractive, but they aren't going to take anything away from the Horde to achieve that goal.
    I respectfully disagree, maybe because I'm older now, but I was like you a year ago, advocating first option of no one has to suffer loss, but when a mistake happens, part of the consequences is some pain and loss to correct it, it is what needs to be done if you truly wan to fix it well or the best way. I remember asking the devs why do they have to nerf classes, why not buff everyone up to the few over powered specs, because no one likes nerfing. Which is true, do you know what they replied?

    It's exactly the same reasoning. No matter what you do, someone is going to feel hurt or not like, so you shouldn't focus on pleasing everyone or not offending anyone, resolve and be convicted over what you feel is the right thing and do it, it will pay off in the end even though some will be upset. If they didn't remove anything from the horde, and just bolstered the alliance well, there is going to be some backlash, some will not like it, horde fans who hate the alliance won't like it.

    But taking the high elves to the horde has done a lot of things, it's responsible for the constant alliance whining over them, and now the Nightborne, they don't do so for any other horde race, nor do the horde do so for any alliance race - the solution should have been seen a long time ago, high elve needed to be playable on the alliance too at least.

    however there are now many good reasons for playable high elves that could solve some of the issues.. however the issue of horde attraction and homogenising of themes or mixed theme, only one way to solve it, either remove it from the horde or make it not matter by making the factions indistinguishable

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    You may believe your ideas are the only answer that will work, but truthfully they would only serve to piss off the people you're trying to get to swap sides. The Alliance player base would be blamed for such changes and players would more likely quit the game than swap sides in such a situation. It won't work, and Blizzard will never do it. It's not in the interest of good business or good relations with their customers.

    Does the Alliance need a boost? Yes. But that boost can't come at the expense of Horde players. They are paying customers too and deserve to continue enjoying the content and themes they currently have access to.
    I also respectfully disagree, because this is not the first time it has happened, and I've seen how people react... a few get angry - most actually don't, but they will let you know one way or another how well they received it. if they receive it well you would see interest in the narrative nad the game spike, regardless of the bitter raging. Most of the bitter raging will die down, hot heads who rage quit, will actually come back once their heads have cooled, and they'll find out it's not so big a deal and the result of the operation might actually lead to things they enjoy.

    now I can't say for 100% certainty this is what will happen, afterall, in 2 years California could be under the sea or blizzard out of business or WoW 2 announced or any number of things could happen, even the expected behaviour change.

    But it's a fair bet.


    But we can agree to disagree on this, sometimes you need to cut the chord, even though it hurts, you need to do what it takes to save the child, and sometimes great improvements come with some measure of sacrifice. It is the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satan View Post
    Very happy with void and blood elves having blue eyes.
    Never thought I'd be agreeing with Satan, but I also like this change.

  4. #23324
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    You know ... High elves are in the Alliance because... their people is also in the Alliance.
    I mean those aren't on the Alliance
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  5. #23325
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Thank you!
    Wait. Thunder, are you Ramavatarama? The artist?

  6. #23326
    @ravenmoon and all alliance high elf hopefuls, look, what you are saying has a certain logic to it, and you may be 100% correct in your assessment, except for one premise you've entirely miscalculated that makes what you want have a 0% chance of happening.

    This is not the same Warcraft as 2004, and it's not the same blizzard. The focus has completely shifted. you did the same thing about the night elves, and you're not seeing they've moved a different direction. Also blizzard doesn't care anywhere as much like they did back in the original classic for if so much as a sneeze was out of place, they'd change an entire system. They won't do that anymore. Partly because they've got a lot of experience now and know not to over react, also the old guard are mostly all gone from the project, it's not their baby, they're their to make money, which means they'll do things that are expedient, and less likely to risk pissing off their crowd - even if it is necessary in the short term and would be much better later.

    It's really not about the long term anymore for a 16 year old+ project - I'm sorry, how much longer do you expect wow to be around? I wouldn't be surprised if a WoW2 is in the planning, and that's going to change a lot of things and re-draw a lot of lines that none of this is going to happen.

    If Warcraft was 2 years old, and the people that built it were the ones still working on the project then they would probably do something like that, or if not that, similar. But it's too big a risk that isn't all that necessary just to make a game top shape?

    Most of your changes are narrative orientated anyway, and wow's probably the lousiest franchise with narrative, it's lore is bad, face it, we may like the races and feeling because of nostalgia and because they're cool and have character, but they're extremely shallow, superficial and have little depth, plus every new instalment changes previous things, re-writes them, recasts them, it's all of the place.. it's clearly just a mechanism to make the adventure more palatable and fuel the roleplay fantasy.

    Compare wow's story telling to say Warhammer or star wars (take SWTOR for example), you realise how utterly shallow wow's races and characters are, but they are quite cool, and how lame the faction conflict and presentation is.

    Your solution might genuinely be what it takes to fix this, but you grossly over estimate the value and importance of such a thing. Ultimately we don't need high elves for wow to survive, don't even need factions, the devs are just as likely to go a totally different direction than the one you proposed that will ruffle a few feathers. Sure it would also excite a few , but am i the only one that feels Warcraft has really past that old alliance /horde set up and Ravenmoon either hasn't really realised it, or is stuck in the past about it, just like he was on the night elves?


    Your best chance for high elves is exactly what they've done, added skin tones to the void elves, and you'd probably get some hair colours, which I have recommended before, like platinum white, a couple of blondes and an orangey red.. The premise will likely be you're one of the high elves or blood elves that has been drawn to the ren'dorei to study the void, like the lot you saw in Telogrus rift, you are part of the faction, but like Alleria, your skin hasn't changed. That's it.
    high elves will continue to be sparse and few, like the Silver covenant and Dalaran residents, and they'd probably get tied into the void elves. I liked that idea you gave about a bonded partner, from the anime Uraboku - I liked that or the Shadowhunters parabatai bond - where a void elf and high elf pair up and the pairing stabislies the void elf by providing a tether of a loved one, it also increase their power as they can now use a lot more void without being lost to insanity, whereas the high elf can use a lot more light as the light reacts to the void. And you always see them in pairs - its novel, can you imagine when making a void elf character that you have to design 2 characters - one with void skin and one with high elf skin


    You are more likely to get something novel like that, than a big song and dance about high elves. WE already got that in TBC..soz. Wait for WoW 2 or a new warcraft single player for things to change - that would likely be followed up by a new cata-level world revamp for wow , it might as well be wow 2.

  7. #23327
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Wait. Thunder, are you Ramavatarama? The artist?
    Oh you didn't know? The guy is super talented and I've been a fan of his work for ages, despite me disagreeing greatly on some issues here on this board. A lot of these guys here are quite talented, and if you go back long enough I've agreed with them on many things and still do, main disagreement comes on the topic of elves - where I support the alliance for that racial group..

    From the way some of our discussions go, it may come across as I don't like them, but that isn't true at all -sure I might rage at their bias and point out what I see is going on, and it makes me unpopular, but I treat everyone the same, and it's really not personal with me... if I se something is this way, I'll say it and stand up for it, i won't turncoat because i want to make friends or idol worship someone - to me a true friend sticks to his convictions and I respect a person who isn't afraid to stand up for theirs, but also has the humility to change theirs when they realise they've been wrong. However i don't hate them because they don't even when i think they are - and I realise sometimes I can be wrong even when I have though I was right, the minute I realise I am wrong about something, I change my view.

    I've been told sometimes my dogged persistence makes me enemies or annoying, but it's just my character, it's hard to let go of something when I'm convinced I'm correct about it.. will fight my dearest friend on it, but I would never hate him over it ore even dislike him, though I might get annoyed at his responses and irritated.

    Same goes for how I react to MyWholeLifeIsThunder , Alanar, Combatbulter, Tanaria, all the horde leaning regulars here. The alliance voices are less enthusiastic on this board, so I tend to be noticed more these days than 10 years ago and I seem to have gotten a bit stuck on the cause of the elves, I don't particularly like the alliance that much more either, but I find value and charm in the original fantasy, and if it is going to be preserved, there is one sure way to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    @ravenmoon and all alliance high elf hopefuls, look, what you are saying has a certain logic to it, and you may be 100% correct in your assessment, except for one premise you've entirely miscalculated that makes what you want have a 0% chance of happening.

    This is not the same Warcraft as 2004, and it's not the same blizzard. The focus has completely shifted. you did the same thing about the night elves, and you're not seeing they've moved a different direction. Also blizzard doesn't care anywhere as much like they did back in the original classic for if so much as a sneeze was out of place, they'd change an entire system. They won't do that anymore. Partly because they've got a lot of experience now and know not to over react, also the old guard are mostly all gone from the project, it's not their baby, they're their to make money, which means they'll do things that are expedient, and less likely to risk pissing off their crowd - even if it is necessary in the short term and would be much better later.

    It's really not about the long term anymore for a 16 year old+ project - I'm sorry, how much longer do you expect wow to be around? I wouldn't be surprised if a WoW2 is in the planning, and that's going to change a lot of things and re-draw a lot of lines that none of this is going to happen.

    If Warcraft was 2 years old, and the people that built it were the ones still working on the project then they would probably do something like that, or if not that, similar. But it's too big a risk that isn't all that necessary just to make a game top shape?

    Most of your changes are narrative orientated anyway, and wow's probably the lousiest franchise with narrative, it's lore is bad, face it, we may like the races and feeling because of nostalgia and because they're cool and have character, but they're extremely shallow, superficial and have little depth, plus every new instalment changes previous things, re-writes them, recasts them, it's all of the place.. it's clearly just a mechanism to make the adventure more palatable and fuel the roleplay fantasy.

    Compare wow's story telling to say Warhammer or star wars (take SWTOR for example), you realise how utterly shallow wow's races and characters are, but they are quite cool, and how lame the faction conflict and presentation is.

    Your solution might genuinely be what it takes to fix this, but you grossly over estimate the value and importance of such a thing. Ultimately we don't need high elves for wow to survive, don't even need factions, the devs are just as likely to go a totally different direction than the one you proposed that will ruffle a few feathers. Sure it would also excite a few , but am i the only one that feels Warcraft has really past that old alliance /horde set up and Ravenmoon either hasn't really realised it, or is stuck in the past about it, just like he was on the night elves?


    Your best chance for high elves is exactly what they've done, added skin tones to the void elves, and you'd probably get some hair colours, which I have recommended before, like platinum white, a couple of blondes and an orangey red.. The premise will likely be you're one of the high elves or blood elves that has been drawn to the ren'dorei to study the void, like the lot you saw in Telogrus rift, you are part of the faction, but like Alleria, your skin hasn't changed. That's it.
    high elves will continue to be sparse and few, like the Silver covenant and Dalaran residents, and they'd probably get tied into the void elves. I liked that idea you gave about a bonded partner, from the anime Uraboku - I liked that or the Shadowhunters parabatai bond - where a void elf and high elf pair up and the pairing stabislies the void elf by providing a tether of a loved one, it also increase their power as they can now use a lot more void without being lost to insanity, whereas the high elf can use a lot more light as the light reacts to the void. And you always see them in pairs - its novel, can you imagine when making a void elf character that you have to design 2 characters - one with void skin and one with high elf skin


    You are more likely to get something novel like that, than a big song and dance about high elves. WE already got that in TBC..soz. Wait for WoW 2 or a new warcraft single player for things to change - that would likely be followed up by a new cata-level world revamp for wow , it might as well be wow 2.
    You honestly can't know that. There are many cases where the sequel has happened and it's been the best thing that has happened.

    It's been 14 years since the high elves introduction to wow as blood elves, maybe the sequel , that shows the high elves returning in style, might be the more memorable and the tide changer. For both the factions.

  8. #23328
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    True, very true,which is why you want that sort of thing balanced. Gameplay depends on these things a lot, if you favour one faction heavily, not only would it help force people back, but the gameplay becomes very unfair.

    I think you should want the play to be fair, regardless of what happens in the lore.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I hear you, and I do understand that these players will be affected.. but I don't think that should stop anyone from making changes they feel are necessary and important, especially if they feel the end result down the line would be better for everyone, not just the alliance in the short but the horde in the long. It's worth suffering the wrath of some.

    And emotions change too, what sounds very bad based on negative hype can turn around once people experience it, and things you thought you might hate you could end up loving. In the least you might not like the belf and NElf themes on the horde changing at first, but they may need to, and you might end up liking that chagne.

    I know people who neither liked the Blood elves going horde, nor the Nightborne too and were very upset with that, but are not only fine with it now, they enjoy it. But if you ask them, they would tell you it would have been better for that not to happen, but they're okay with it and sitll enjoy the game.. For some it's diminished their experience, but they stil like it. Others

    As for me I'm in one of those groups somewhere. I hope you don't think I hate the alliance or the horde or the blood elves or anything like that. I already have the high elf civilization playable on the horde and the kaldorei civilization too, I have what I wanted, albeit it on the other faction and i enjoy them there. Every time I play round, I do get a strong feeling that it's weird and these themes would be much better a climate and setting if it was all on the alliance, and I also sometimes long for the blood elves to be bit more like the Illidari, like they were been set up in TFT when Belves joined Illidan - that edgier sexy/hot but bad boy/bitch sort of character.

    I think it would have been better, not just because i like it, but because it offers something different from what's already on the alliance and isn't taking that theme... it seems I am more eloquent analysing the games problems and coming up with solutions than i am expressing my feelings.

    The current status quo isn't bad, it's okay, I want this to be great, more than okay, and i think the alliance themes on the horde are getting in the way, they either need to inch towards distinguishing hte factions more thematically or total blend. An go hard on which ever option.

    We're talking about improvements here, that would solve some bad of the game issues like alliance depletion.



    I respectfully disagree, maybe because I'm older now, but I was like you a year ago, advocating first option of no one has to suffer loss, but when a mistake happens, part of the consequences is some pain and loss to correct it, it is what needs to be done if you truly wan to fix it well or the best way. I remember asking the devs why do they have to nerf classes, why not buff everyone up to the few over powered specs, because no one likes nerfing. Which is true, do you know what they replied?

    It's exactly the same reasoning. No matter what you do, someone is going to feel hurt or not like, so you shouldn't focus on pleasing everyone or not offending anyone, resolve and be convicted over what you feel is the right thing and do it, it will pay off in the end even though some will be upset. If they didn't remove anything from the horde, and just bolstered the alliance well, there is going to be some backlash, some will not like it, horde fans who hate the alliance won't like it.

    But taking the high elves to the horde has done a lot of things, it's responsible for the constant alliance whining over them, and now the Nightborne, they don't do so for any other horde race, nor do the horde do so for any alliance race - the solution should have been seen a long time ago, high elve needed to be playable on the alliance too at least.

    however there are now many good reasons for playable high elves that could solve some of the issues.. however the issue of horde attraction and homogenising of themes or mixed theme, only one way to solve it, either remove it from the horde or make it not matter by making the factions indistinguishable


    I also respectfully disagree, because this is not the first time it has happened, and I've seen how people react... a few get angry - most actually don't, but they will let you know one way or another how well they received it. if they receive it well you would see interest in the narrative nad the game spike, regardless of the bitter raging. Most of the bitter raging will die down, hot heads who rage quit, will actually come back once their heads have cooled, and they'll find out it's not so big a deal and the result of the operation might actually lead to things they enjoy.

    now I can't say for 100% certainty this is what will happen, afterall, in 2 years California could be under the sea or blizzard out of business or WoW 2 announced or any number of things could happen, even the expected behaviour change.

    But it's a fair bet.


    But we can agree to disagree on this, sometimes you need to cut the chord, even though it hurts, you need to do what it takes to save the child, and sometimes great improvements come with some measure of sacrifice. It is the way.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Never thought I'd be agreeing with Satan, but I also like this change.
    If the objective is that the alliance becomes popular and that many people go to play the alliance, what you have to do is give it better racials.

    Or was it not unfair that the alliance had an ilvl 410 when starting a patch and the horde did not? Wasn't unfair 30% for the alliance in war mode?

    Obviously it's unfair, but if you're looking to make one faction more popular over another, that's clearly what you have to do.

  9. #23329
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    If the objective is that the alliance becomes popular and that many people go to play the alliance, what you have to do is give it better racials.

    Or was it not unfair that the alliance had an ilvl 410 when starting a patch and the horde did not? Wasn't unfair 30% for the alliance in war mode?

    Obviously it's unfair, but if you're looking to make one faction more popular over another, that's clearly what you have to do.
    It really comes down to whether you believe the Horde gained supremacy because of Blood Elves' aesthetic, or the better racials, and in terms of cutting edge progression.

    I think it's some of both, but the later had a lot more relevance; endgame progression became the metric, any edge was pursued, and even while most of the playerbase aren't top tier raiders or pvp-rs, they still follow the lead -Just look at covenants + class meta and just class meta rn-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Wait. Thunder, are you Ramavatarama? The artist?
    Jeepers, it's a moi

  10. #23330
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It really comes down to whether you believe the Horde gained supremacy because of Blood Elves' aesthetic, or the better racials, and in terms of cutting edge progression.

    I think it's some of both, but the later had a lot more relevance; endgame progression became the metric, any edge was pursued, and even while most of the playerbase aren't top tier raiders or pvp-rs, they still follow the lead -Just look at covenants + class meta and just class meta rn-

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    Jeepers, it's a moi
    the vast majority of players only choose the covenant to improve statistics. although they do not like the aesthetics or the lore of the covenant.

    this is the reality of the game. If you really want to make the alliance popular and have many people play the alliance, you have to make the alliance's racials better than those of the horde.

  11. #23331
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the vast majority of players only choose the covenant to improve statistics. although they do not like the aesthetics or the lore of the covenant.

    this is the reality of the game. If you really want to make the alliance popular and have many people play the alliance, you have to make the alliance's racials better than those of the horde.
    What they probably need to do is a racials overhaul on the level of what they did with the talent system. Basically, a total tear down and rebuilding from the ground up with clear structure and balance. Then they could make a list of each type of feature, like an aoe dispel (Arcane Torrent), feign death (Shadowmeld), personal cleanse (dwarf actives), etc. and make it so each faction has a version of each power (but with different animations and names). They could also do this with passive defensives (Forged in Flames), passive offensives (Viciousness), and profession racials too.

    This way, each side would have exactly the same powers as the other, but with unique cosmetics and remixed so there isn't a mirror thing going on (the same abilities wouldn't be found on the same race on each side, but mixed up).

  12. #23332
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Jeepers, it's a moi
    Aww, I really love your drawings, I recently discovered you in Twitter and had left some positive comments x. Btw how many pages are there it's telling me there're 1186 and I cannot access the last page, odd

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    Nvm I think it fixed itself, I see 1185 pages only now

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Jeepers, it's a moi
    I discovered you well before discovering this thread, as I was looking for artists able to create some hairstyles and haircolours I had in mind for female Void elves, such as these:

    - Long, straight, with a side braid running along the side of the head and resting on the back, like so:

    https://i0.wp.com/therighthairstyles...pg?w=500&ssl=1

    A very loose, long braid, resting on the back like so:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/04/bb/62/0...a740e5322a.jpg

    Braided hair up with a few hair falling down on the sides, like so:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a3/83...34c02fa591.jpg

    I mean, I don't think elves can ever have enough braids. And Void elves have none. The catastrophe! Let me know what you think of these. Maybe you can make one or two (or all if you feel like it lol) for us. I would compensate.

    For hair colours to be displayed on those hairstyles, I was thinking a Kul'tiran Blonde, the lighter one of the two available. It looks very natural and would especially fit the braided hair up and the loose braid. Also, a Draenei White, either from normal Draenei or LFD (all of them whites look good). You might even want to experiment with adding two dark blue shining highlights on the blonde to show some voidy corruption in the colour!

  13. #23333
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleann View Post
    Aww, I really love your drawings, I recently discovered you in Twitter and had left some positive comments x. Btw how many pages are there it's telling me there're 1186 and I cannot access the last page, odd

    - - - Updated - - -

    Nvm I think it fixed itself, I see 1185 pages only now

    - - - Updated - - -



    I discovered you well before discovering this thread, as I was looking for artists able to create some hairstyles and haircolours I had in mind for female Void elves, such as these:

    - Long, straight, with a side braid running along the side of the head and resting on the back, like so:

    https://i0.wp.com/therighthairstyles...pg?w=500&ssl=1

    A very loose, long braid, resting on the back like so:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/04/bb/62/0...a740e5322a.jpg

    Braided hair up with a few hair falling down on the sides, like so:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a3/83...34c02fa591.jpg

    I mean, I don't think elves can ever have enough braids. And Void elves have none. The catastrophe! Let me know what you think of these. Maybe you can make one or two (or all if you feel like it lol) for us. I would compensate.

    For hair colours to be displayed on those hairstyles, I was thinking a Kul'tiran Blonde, the lighter one of the two available. It looks very natural and would especially fit the braided hair up and the loose braid. Also, a Draenei White, either from normal Draenei or LFD (all of them whites look good). You might even want to experiment with adding two dark blue shining highlights on the blonde to show some voidy corruption in the colour!
    Thank you!

    And for sure, VE's would really benefit a lot by having more braided hairstyles; I think it would fit both a VE and a HE aesthetic -and the inbetween-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the vast majority of players only choose the covenant to improve statistics. although they do not like the aesthetics or the lore of the covenant.

    this is the reality of the game. If you really want to make the alliance popular and have many people play the alliance, you have to make the alliance's racials better than those of the horde.
    Indeed, we have seen so much people being "well, I really don't like this covenant's aesthetics, but the DPS tho :/" And even when we are lore and immersion weebs, we gotta realize that most people care about optimization over lore and aesthetics.

    I have never bought that it was just getting elves that made the Horde reign supreme in terms of popularity, it's really a mix of all factors including the ability to be paladins and the Horde's overall better endgame content racials.

    So yeah, even while removing BE identity from the Horde would cause a shitstorm, I don't actually think it would affect popularity, cause the alliance's issues just go beyond not having appealing enough races or identity.

  14. #23334
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Indeed, we have seen so much people being "well, I really don't like this covenant's aesthetics, but the DPS tho :/" And even when we are lore and immersion weebs, we gotta realize that most people care about optimization over lore and aesthetics.

    I have never bought that it was just getting elves that made the Horde reign supreme in terms of popularity, it's really a mix of all factors including the ability to be paladins and the Horde's overall better endgame content racials.

    So yeah, even while removing BE identity from the Horde would cause a shitstorm, I don't actually think it would affect popularity, cause the alliance's issues just go beyond not having appealing enough races or identity.
    @Rhlor It is true, us lore/immersion fanatics are a much smaller minority, but we are the ones that that drive the community /and game. like it's engine.

    When we get excited, it spreads. most people don't really care about lore and the narrative etc, but if they put out something really cool, we are the first to get super excited, and our excitement catches on to our less involved friends.
    Last edited by Beloren; 2021-02-02 at 01:05 PM.

  15. #23335
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    @Rhlor It is true, us lore/immersion fanatics are a much smaller minority, but we are the ones that that drive the community /and game. like it's engine.

    When we get excited, it spreads. most people don't really care about lore and the narrative etc, but if they put out something really cool, we are the first to get super excited, and our excitement catches on to our less involved friends.

    Also, there are people, like my ex, who do follow and like the lore, but they're low key, they never post, and they'll take any change that comes, whether it was blood elves going horde, or if the high elves return in style like I've been harping on about etc, and won't stop playing. They won't get massively upset if the blood elves in Silvermoon return to being high elves and bring it with them - if they were in favour of the status quo, however, if it was something they like, they'd get really excited about it.


    I've spent a lot of time watching fans, and I don't stick to any bubble. I play both factions, I have quite a number of friends who play Warcraft, and use to, in diverse realms, prefer different levels of engagement, some just play classic, and I talk to them, I am constantly asking their opinion, seeing how they feel, measuring the temperature.


    it's different here, than it is on reddit than it is on the official forums - and discord is a whole different ball game..




    Gamers will go where the dps goes, but if you mess that one up it can hurt you irreparably.. you can make mistakes with the lore and the movement of NPC characters, even with what race joins what faction, because such things don't affect gameplay, but you have to be much more careful.


    If you favour the alliance gameplay wise, you are no longer enticing /luring people to switch, they'll feel you're manipulating them, that you are forcing them to switch factions and pay up... this is far worse than the anger from lore changes which can change and easily subside. You have competitve play and sports involved, and you risk a backlash that might end up demanding racials get removed, which would be a loss.




    The reason I don't suggest the racial route is because of this. A small alliance boost/edge won't change anything much (the original classic proved this mostly), a significant one would, but would ruin the gameplay balance,


    So @Rhlor yes, it would work, but the potential cost /price to pay from the havoc would be too much, it's not a good route tot ake. Imo.
    Also, there are people, like my ex, who do follow and like the lore, but they're low key, they never post, and they'll take any change that comes, whether it was blood elves going horde, or if the high elves return in style like I've been harping on about etc, and won't stop playing. They won't get massively upset if the blood elves in Silvermoon return to being high elves and bring it with them - if they were in favour of the status quo, however, if it was something they like, they'd get really excited about it.


    I've spent a lot of time watching fans, and I don't stick to any bubble. I play both factions, i have quite a number of friends who play warcraft, and use to, in diverse realms, prefer different levels of engagement, some just play classic, and I talk to them, I am constantly asking their opinion, seeing how they feel, measuring the temperature.


    it's different here, than it is on reddit than it is on the official forums - and discord is a whole different ball game..




    Gamers will go where the dps goes, but if you mess that one up it can hurt you irreparably.. you can make mistakes with the lore and the movement of NPC characters, even with what race joins what faction, because such things don't affect gameplay, but you have to be much more careful.


    If you favour the alliance gameplay wise, you are no longer enticing /luring people to switch, they'll feel you're manipulating them, that you are forcing them to switch factions and pay up... this is far worse than the anger from lore changes which can change and easily subside. You have competitve play and sports involved, and you risk a backlash that might end up demanding racials get removed, which would be a loss.




    The reason I don't suggest the racial route is because of this. A small alliance boost/edge won't change anything much (the original classic proved this mostly), a significant one would, but would ruin the gameplay balance,


    So yes, it would work, but the potential cost /price to pay from the havoc would be too much, it's not a good route tot ake. Imo.

  16. #23336
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    @Rhlor It is true, us lore/immersion fanatics are a much smaller minority, but we are the ones that that drive the community /and game. like it's engine.

    When we get excited, it spreads. most people don't really care about lore and the narrative etc, but if they put out something really cool, we are the first to get super excited, and our excitement catches on to our less involved friends.
    I repeat, if the goal is for the alliance to be popular and many people want to play an alliance, what you have to do is give the alliance better racials. most people play where there are better statistics

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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Also, there are people, like my ex, who do follow and like the lore, but they're low key, they never post, and they'll take any change that comes, whether it was blood elves going horde, or if the high elves return in style like I've been harping on about etc, and won't stop playing. They won't get massively upset if the blood elves in Silvermoon return to being high elves and bring it with them - if they were in favour of the status quo, however, if it was something they like, they'd get really excited about it.


    I've spent a lot of time watching fans, and I don't stick to any bubble. I play both factions, I have quite a number of friends who play Warcraft, and use to, in diverse realms, prefer different levels of engagement, some just play classic, and I talk to them, I am constantly asking their opinion, seeing how they feel, measuring the temperature.


    it's different here, than it is on reddit than it is on the official forums - and discord is a whole different ball game..




    Gamers will go where the dps goes, but if you mess that one up it can hurt you irreparably.. you can make mistakes with the lore and the movement of NPC characters, even with what race joins what faction, because such things don't affect gameplay, but you have to be much more careful.


    If you favour the alliance gameplay wise, you are no longer enticing /luring people to switch, they'll feel you're manipulating them, that you are forcing them to switch factions and pay up... this is far worse than the anger from lore changes which can change and easily subside. You have competitve play and sports involved, and you risk a backlash that might end up demanding racials get removed, which would be a loss.




    The reason I don't suggest the racial route is because of this. A small alliance boost/edge won't change anything much (the original classic proved this mostly), a significant one would, but would ruin the gameplay balance,


    So @Rhlor yes, it would work, but the potential cost /price to pay from the havoc would be too much, it's not a good route tot ake. Imo.
    Also, there are people, like my ex, who do follow and like the lore, but they're low key, they never post, and they'll take any change that comes, whether it was blood elves going horde, or if the high elves return in style like I've been harping on about etc, and won't stop playing. They won't get massively upset if the blood elves in Silvermoon return to being high elves and bring it with them - if they were in favour of the status quo, however, if it was something they like, they'd get really excited about it.


    I've spent a lot of time watching fans, and I don't stick to any bubble. I play both factions, i have quite a number of friends who play warcraft, and use to, in diverse realms, prefer different levels of engagement, some just play classic, and I talk to them, I am constantly asking their opinion, seeing how they feel, measuring the temperature.


    it's different here, than it is on reddit than it is on the official forums - and discord is a whole different ball game..




    Gamers will go where the dps goes, but if you mess that one up it can hurt you irreparably.. you can make mistakes with the lore and the movement of NPC characters, even with what race joins what faction, because such things don't affect gameplay, but you have to be much more careful.


    If you favour the alliance gameplay wise, you are no longer enticing /luring people to switch, they'll feel you're manipulating them, that you are forcing them to switch factions and pay up... this is far worse than the anger from lore changes which can change and easily subside. You have competitve play and sports involved, and you risk a backlash that might end up demanding racials get removed, which would be a loss.




    The reason I don't suggest the racial route is because of this. A small alliance boost/edge won't change anything much (the original classic proved this mostly), a significant one would, but would ruin the gameplay balance,


    So yes, it would work, but the potential cost /price to pay from the havoc would be too much, it's not a good route tot ake. Imo.
    give lvl 410 at the start of an alliance patch? 30% in war mode?

    blizz already favored the alliance in gameplay. Here we are talking about making many people go to play the alliance to make the popular alliance the empirical truth tells us that most people will play where they have better statistics.
    giving better races to the alliance and nerfing the racial troll causes a lot of people to play the alliance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Thank you!

    And for sure, VE's would really benefit a lot by having more braided hairstyles; I think it would fit both a VE and a HE aesthetic -and the inbetween-

    - - - Updated - - -



    Indeed, we have seen so much people being "well, I really don't like this covenant's aesthetics, but the DPS tho :/" And even when we are lore and immersion weebs, we gotta realize that most people care about optimization over lore and aesthetics.

    I have never bought that it was just getting elves that made the Horde reign supreme in terms of popularity, it's really a mix of all factors including the ability to be paladins and the Horde's overall better endgame content racials.

    So yeah, even while removing BE identity from the Horde would cause a shitstorm, I don't actually think it would affect popularity, cause the alliance's issues just go beyond not having appealing enough races or identity.
    to increase the numbers of the alliance the only thing that can do is to give better races to the alliance. also nerfing the racial troll would help the horde lose many players.

  17. #23337
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    to increase the numbers of the alliance the only thing that can do is to give better races to the alliance. also nerfing the racial troll would help the horde lose many players.
    TBH I do think the most effective way to make the alliance more popular would be to give it a ridiculous advantage, like a broken racial, and outright only balance it when population gets more balanced.

    IMO the biggest issue is that the Horde got given an edge during BC onwards to rebalance, but they overcorrected and never really managed to restore the balance. I really don't think that taking anything away from the Horde would work because the animosity would be too much, too much backlash, but give the alliance a broken racial that could sway the PVE meta towards alliance in a meaningful way, but only temporarily, could actually work.

    Cause you know a lot of cutting edge guilds would downright transfer for an advantage, and that could potentially sway a lot of people -just like the current covenant meta- but it would have to be something closely monitored.

  18. #23338
    Just another night staying up late and scouting Tweeter to find devs and artists responsible for the creation and customization of Void Elves so I can pester them too about adding some hairstyles and haircolours to them. I am helplessly addicted to my desire for this type of customization on my Void elf. I try to distract myself, but the desire just will not wane. I wish there was some way to talk to them and tell them how important this small change would be for my sanity! Everyone is so annoyed at the lack of loot and Choreghast, but I think they forget to ask for improvements to the original things that brought them to the game, like their characters and the environment! How much longer do we need to wait? I got caught in this madness just a month and a half ago, and can only imagine the horrors the High elfers must have been through, getting the Void elves they never asked for..or getting skins but nothing done for the hair. They should pay equal attention to customization as to gameplay fixes in my opinion.

  19. #23339
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    TBH I do think the most effective way to make the alliance more popular would be to give it a ridiculous advantage, like a broken racial, and outright only balance it when population gets more balanced.

    IMO the biggest issue is that the Horde got given an edge during BC onwards to rebalance, but they overcorrected and never really managed to restore the balance. I really don't think that taking anything away from the Horde would work because the animosity would be too much, too much backlash, but give the alliance a broken racial that could sway the PVE meta towards alliance in a meaningful way, but only temporarily, could actually work.

    Cause you know a lot of cutting edge guilds would downright transfer for an advantage, and that could potentially sway a lot of people -just like the current covenant meta- but it would have to be something closely monitored.
    @Rhlor Tbh, that's a band aid - that will cause more problems than fix, all to avoid taking high elf and night elf stuff from horde? Why is it so hard to consider this path? Want to make the alliance picked? Make it awesome, exciting, and dynamic. Best way to do that,? Let the elves shine on the alliance. And while you're at it, remove the alliance themed stuff on the horde - it makes the horde clearer and more distinct -that's how I'll do it.

    And no, I don't hate the horde, and I'm not trying to punish horde elf fans, - and yes the game will still be playable if they didn't do any of that and just left things as is, but I feel it will appeal to a whole lot more if they re-orientated and honed in hard on their foundation

    Today, Monsters, edge-lords, bad boys and anti-hero's are quite popular, the horde will hold it's own against the alliance without the noble high elf and kaldorei types. Sure high elf is popular, and people love that white knight, beautiful delicate looking city - but equally popular is your darker, edgier, cruel beauty, domineering beauty as well.

    I think there is a lot of room for the original themes of the horde and alliance to be doubled down and expanded with the new additions since WC1-WoW classic if they go that route.

    Start with a big show for the alliance so that catches the attention of the community, gets them excited and loving it, give the horde it's improvements but in the direction you now want to focus it. - this strategy will get the two factions even, the high elf return and night elf rise splashed out would initially draw peeps to the alliance, when the blood elf edgelord and anti hero development comes it will keep the horde competitive.

    If you ask me, WoW does Edge Lord's better than White Knights. It hasn't done a cool good guy in ages - I am certain that when the blood elves are rid of their high elf past, they'd be very appealing to the gaming crowd. the void elves would be the alliance counterpart of the blood elves, , but for them it would be noble edgelord, or nobility with twist /streak - but the classic bad boy , anti hero and edglord would be owned by the blood elves

  20. #23340
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    @Rhlor Tbh, that's a band aid - that will cause more problems than fix, all to avoid taking high elf and night elf stuff from horde? Why is it so hard to consider this path? Want to make the alliance picked? Make it awesome, exciting, and dynamic. Best way to do that,? Let the elves shine on the alliance. And while you're at it, remove the alliance themed stuff on the horde - it makes the horde clearer and more distinct -that's how I'll do it.

    And no, I don't hate the horde, and I'm not trying to punish horde elf fans, - and yes the game will still be playable if they didn't do any of that and just left things as is, but I feel it will appeal to a whole lot more if they re-orientated and honed in hard on their foundation

    Today, Monsters, edge-lords, bad boys and anti-hero's are quite popular, the horde will hold it's own against the alliance without the noble high elf and kaldorei types. Sure high elf is popular, and people love that white knight, beautiful delicate looking city - but equally popular is your darker, edgier, cruel beauty, domineering beauty as well.

    I think there is a lot of room for the original themes of the horde and alliance to be doubled down and expanded with the new additions since WC1-WoW classic if they go that route.

    Start with a big show for the alliance so that catches the attention of the community, gets them excited and loving it, give the horde it's improvements but in the direction you now want to focus it. - this strategy will get the two factions even, the high elf return and night elf rise splashed out would initially draw peeps to the alliance, when the blood elf edgelord and anti hero development comes it will keep the horde competitive.

    If you ask me, WoW does Edge Lord's better than White Knights. It hasn't done a cool good guy in ages - I am certain that when the blood elves are rid of their high elf past, they'd be very appealing to the gaming crowd. the void elves would be the alliance counterpart of the blood elves, , but for them it would be noble edgelord, or nobility with twist /streak - but the classic bad boy , anti hero and edglord would be owned by the blood elves
    People nowadays do not choose faction for aesthetics, they do it for the best statistics.

    If what you are looking for is to increase the numbers of the alliance, you have to give the alliance better statistics than the horde.

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