1. #23321
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And therein lies the flaw presented on your dichotomy, as if there could ONLY be a strong identity if there is a restriction of themes. It's for sure the easiest option, but that's by no means a good thing here; you are asking the setting to dumb itself down to have a stronger sense of identity. It's bonkers.
    It is not a flaw, you just didn't read what I was saying carefully. Perhaps your scorn and disdain for me, resulted in you missing what I was actually saying. I've seen this happen a lot, when you simply dismiss people because you don't like them, you are disdainful of them, you judge and view them in the worse possible light, as unintelligent, you miss what they are saying. I have noticed there is a tendency, especially amongst Americans, to quickly judge a person based on something said in the past, then paint them with that brush constantly. Perhaps Americans are use to people never changing and read character or rather their impression on character over content. Usually this is a good metric to weight a persons words, however you don't know an online poster well enough to do so, and forum people do all the time. They get into an argument with one poster at some point, and they judge that poster continually in that fashion based on their character impressions after that one conversation - it's not like real life, when you have known the person in school for a long time or spent considerably more time and info on them to make that assessment, even then it's a bit judgey. But then people judge all the time and it doesn't take much..

    This is not the ONLY way, but it is in my opinion the BEST way and by best I mean the easiest, least complicated, but potentially most rewarding way. I reckon you'd get the fastest and most effective results this way. That is an opinion.

    i have made observations about the state of the game - observations I have provided basis for. The problems I have highlighted are well known issues, and the solutions I propose could definitely solve those problems, it makes sense they would. but as you observe they are not the only way. That has never been the point I was making. The point that it is the best way. We can debate whether that is true or not, however, even if it isn't the best way I can think of, it is a very good way to solve that.

    Those who argue that it isn't a good way, seem to base this only on "not wanting to lose Quel'thalas and Suramar" - they haven't provided any convincing argument, but I understand they don't like it, because they don't want it. I have also noted that several times and stated I don't blame them or hold grudges against them for not liking it, it is expected that some wouldn't like this to change. But removing the alliance in the horde elves is still the best and most effective way to do this, and I don't think that wanting to keep Quel'thalas horde is a good enough reason to explore or force other more dangerous options.

    Ofc it's not up to me, blizzard devs may like high elves on the red side enough to want to keep that no matter what, and will in fact even change the constitution of the factions and what they mean just to keep it horde. This off course is their right, but I've got to just wonder that they fell in love with the high elves on the red side so much they were willing to sacrifice what Warcraft was to keep it that way rather than simply move the high elf nation back and the night elf civilization onto the alliance and develop the blood elves and Nightborne into something different but just as cool. and in so doing restoring that integrity.

    I just think that while they could do lots of other things, the most obvious, and simplest one is to take the alliance stuff back to the alliance, boosting the alliance that way, and fixing the faction disparity. But if not, fine continue in this more homogenised way, let the redefinition of the factions, especially the horde continue. Who says there has to be even a horde and alliance? They're changing so much as it is, in this current direction, soon the only thing originally Warcraft about them would be the names.

    Now this

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It's just so patently obvious that your goals are to have the "highborne" aesthetic and themes on the alliance it isn't even funny. If it was only about creating artificial distinction, then why not focus the alliance elves on their nature worshiping roots, and leave all the imperial classical fantasy to the blood elves and nightborne? because the most transparent thing here is that the classical imperial themes you oh so desire have never been part of the alliance identity.
    Because I want the Highborne stuff, which is kaldorei properly on the alliance and disagreed with the Nightborne going horde, quite vocally, and all that doesn't mean that I'm wrong about what I say, regardless of what my motive is.

    As it stands right now, having just as many night elf and void elf toons as I do Nightborne and blood elf, toons. You can be sure i don't hate the horde.. i don't have that fan partisanship and my conclusions about this are actually based on the health of the game.. I've always thought it terrible how rubbished the alliance was made to prop up the horde.. people who read those statements, especially partial partisan minds, assume that me saying this means I am an alliance fan - they just can't fathom that a neutral person can look at the game and say.. the alliance is been thrown under the us, because they are so partisan, they can only see things in terms of enemy.. so naturally the horde ones will disagree with anything pro alliance I say.

    i have never been in support of the night elves joining the alliance, my Highborne focus has been entirely on restoring the night elves not the alliance. I will tell you what you may fail to notice about me, but i like things in the game making sense and being good. i like things being consistent. And to me, that means the high elves (incl the blood elves in the behaviour and culture they are currently presented as) are alliance, this is what the original alliance and it's core is made up of the civilization and culture , attribute of the humans, high elves and dwarves.

    You can't take the core alliance race over to the horde forever and not expect to change the face and structure on what these factions mean.

    The Nightborne are incivdedentally, they are the part of the kaldorei that is the most alliance themed i.e. the pre-sundering night elven civilization and empire. If the night elves were their own faction, they and all things pre-sundering night elf, would be an important part of the diversity and complexity for a faction leading race like the night elves were originally designed to be, but without other factions they are alliance too in that vein they are presented in. You don't get more benevolent, kaldorei nobility type than you do in Thalyssra and her Nightfallen group who are supposed to represent the true heart of the Suramar population a night elven populace over 10,000 years old reclaiming their original noble heritage (as stated by the q - this is once more alliance character, alliance themed civilization (the night elf one now) again on the horde.

    I don't think this good not because i am an alliance fan or a Highborne obsessed, but because it is ruining the core of the game (but you may prefer the word change to ruin - same thing, if changed the new core would not be the same as the old, the old would be ruined). The alliance has been portrayed so poorly in the last 12 years, it makes the series worse, this isn't good either. I know blood elves going horde had a good reason - it was to fix numbers - not to redefine the factions, and I know building up the horde was to change it's perception - so that it would be more popular and desirable, not specifically to make it more alliance - making it more alliance was the way they thought it would achieve those goals.

    As such the other side was bad, and this is never good, when one faction just seems naff than the other, you might have feel good for being horde but it isn't challenging or rewarding when your opposition is so silly.. none of these things are good.

    Knowing the motive and reasoning for blood elves being on the horde and the change in direction - my point has been, it's already achieved what it set out to do, which was make the horde more popular and playable, it wasn't intended to change the fabric and constitution of the horde that was a side effect, and one that isn't particularly good, nor bad, (either) I acknowledge, but the it isn't really what Warcraft is about and the charm of the original state is lost, so it is worth removing that side effect, restoring the heart of Warcraft .

    Off course they can disagree and keep things as is, but I don't feel "as is" is anywhere near as compelling as before.. not in this current format anyway.

    It is a sub-optimal state for the factions currently, but it is also transitional. The factions can't stay like this nor will they, you can either restore them to the original core or continue to evolve them into something new - a world where horde and alliance are more abstract entities with only minor ideological differences, having only cosmetic distinctions providing a superficial but visual semblance of difference/distinction, to the extent that this will result the realisation their need to separate the players would become irrelevant and they would remain only a lore /story device element - either because players will be able to choose their faction regardless of race or players will be able to group , guild and raid together regardless of faction.


    It's one of the two developments. This current state is sub-optimal to either .. you may like things to stay as they are, but the faction separation stance of today is better with the horde and alliance more distinct and after their original premise... and if you think that progressing the current trend is better like Beloren does, then the end result is more homogenised factions or to a larger extent factions become meaningless to gameplay. then it won't matter how many people horde or alliance have.

    They must choose which they want. Not you or I, they must decide whether it's worth keeping the core of Warcraft intrinsic to the game in which case the high elves and night elven civilization need to be divorced from the playable blood elves and Nightborne and go to the alliance, then the remaining blood elves and Nightborne on the horde be developed away from that, and all the other things I've said. the alliance is promoted and given the red carpet treatment for an expansion or two to significantly raise its profile again and equalise the numbers, and then they competitively boost both factions, no longer giving one faction all the best things.





    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post

    When the High Elves were part of the alliance, it was with druidic/ranger themes, which then the NE continued. There's nothing about the elven empire themes that have ever been alliance, not even close.

    If we were going to take your argument about exclusivity and identity seriously, then the answer is not removing BE's from the horde, but to clearly separate the NE and BE aesthetics; As it as always been, alliance elves would focus on nature themes, and blood elves + nightborne on the high fantasy magical imperial themes.

    So no highborne on the alliance, NE and HE become entirely druidic, and BE and NB entirely arcane focused.

    Makes far more sense than completely removing the BE's identity, no? But you wouldn't accept that, because we all know your argument lacks any actual integrity and does not exist at all for the sake of the game.
    This is not true and you know it. you're just trying to counter the argument because it reveals the truth about the situation and to accept it means accepting the conclusions it means. You may tell yourselves that the high elves have nothing to d o with the alliance, but the alliance was built on the concepts blizzard gave to the elves, humans and dwarves.

    And when the blood elves joined the horde, they reverted them to their high elf tradition, gave them the high elf home rather than the new home on outland WC3 TFT had created for them and was developing them into part of a bad boy anti-hero faction of elves with Illidan.

    Right now you only need to know Warcraft history and just look at the blood elves and you see far more in common and in line with all the alliance races than any horde race. And so the Nightborne that come, have things only in common with the blood elves but no other horde race, while they have so much in common with the night elves, especially the Highborne, the high elves, the void elves, the draenei, the humans, the dwarves than they do the trolls, orcs, tauren, goblins etc.

    No one is saying that the horde can't have unique races that are different, the Pandaren are an excellent example, but if you are considering the blood elves as unique, they are not, they are alliance, they may be unique on the horde but it is an alliance theme there, you should want them to become something not tied to the alliance, something more unique, in a similar vein to that I suggested, which is they lose all things high elves (and the Nightborne lose all things kaldorei civilization and Highborne) both in their culture, behaviour, temperament, and later in their architecture and even aesthetic. while the models won't change, they can gain additional optional customisations that would allow them different looks, architecture is easy enough to change, but for the rest, you have to narratively take them i n a different direction. Blizzard has done this before, Kael'thas in TFT was going that direction, and we saw hints of it in TBC with the Sunsworn, Elisande's loyalists and their attitude is different to the benevolent pre-sundering kaldorei attitude Farondis had.. this is why Azshara's Highborne became naga, a different race, and the naga seem very different from the kaldorei - pre-sundering and long vigil alike. Even their architecture becomes different.

    This is where you take the horde elves. You aren't losing them as playable, you're not even losing their models, nothing like that, they are just losing that high elf identity and the night elven kaldorei civilization identity they currently have. this is what you are arguing so strongly to keep.

    At the end of the day, the wisdom or folly to do either is based on what blizzard regards as best for the game. Regardless of whether I want Highborne or high elves more apparent on the alliance. at this point , i don't care, not like i use to, i already have Highborne and high elves on the alliance, and i have the high elf kingdom and night elf civilization available on the horde. i don't need to make these arguments to get them on the alliance just to enjoy them.. they are already there.

    My motive for making these arguments here now, is to improve the alliance, balance the game, fix the horde, and generally restore the core of Warcraft. It's not the only position I advocate, but for strengthening and healing Warcraft's core this is the route i'll take.

    If I could determine what route they'd take , my first option would be more factions

    1. Four factions. alliance, horde, Kaldorei or the Night faction and the Undead
    2. I'd take the elves and a few races neutral in the manner Beloren has suggested.
    3. I'd do the Return of the High elves and Rise of the Kaldorei like I have suggested, with all the improvements to the alliance and the horde i have suggested above.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Situation Is Serious enough

    @MyWholeLifeIsThunder The way things are going, without a drastic and serious effort to make the alliance viable, we will lose both factions and what it means to have factions.

    This is neither good nor bad, but no factions isn't really what Warcraft is/was - but maybe Warcraft needs to die and new Warcraft be born.

    However if they want to keep Warcraft, they can't just let things go on as they are, alliance players continually going horde nonstop, no incentive to remain alliance - not ideologically or thematically, not socially.. face it, go horde, you have the blood elves and Nightborne providing all the things you expect of the alliance.

    Well this is a problem for the faction concept of Warcraft, nothing more. Want to fix that, take action now, make the alliance feel special and interesting again, attractive. how? Elves, elves, elves, they mean more to alliance fans and enough of the horde to make the difference, the high elves and the night elves are well loved, but the best parts of them are visible on the horde in the blood elves and Nightborne, and those that remain on the alliance, the Darnassians and Void elves are vast shadows of what the lore paints of the high elves and the Kaldorei (who can be a lot more when you provide both pre-sundering and long vigil parts to make them the epic faction grade race they were).

    This means all the cool high elf and night elf civilization parts of the blood elves and Nightborne must be removed from them and returned to the alliance and made to look good. It doesn't mean the horde has to permanently lose out if you replace the lost elven stuff with orc, troll stuff, and if you redefine/develop the blood elves and Nightborne into something new/unique.. even if you make them the anti-hero types they were going to be in TBC or the sinister, megalomaniac empire building near naga type the Elisande loyalists were going to be - complete with new architecture, shifted cultural and ideological values from benevolence and the kaldorei type of high society to something new.

    This is what I would counsel doing. So many issues fixed and things improved and all it cost was the horde losing an elven element that wasn't really horde to begin with. For the price of Quel'thalas and Suramar, it is well worth it if you ask me. I wouldn't fight to keep the game in this spiralling decline just so the blood elves can brag about Quel'thalas, and horde Nightborne can have feel good about a city and race they have never needed. But was given for eye candy treats and likely just because it was habit to give horde the shinier things. If you can look above and beyond sentimental attachments, you will see that by far this ist he most effective and least obtrusive solution.

    Sure it will cause a row, but it wasn't be as bad as burning down Teldrassil and geocoding the kaldorei, or losing Lordaeron.


    Alliance get the bulk of the High elves, Horde get the bulk of the Pandaren
    The horde loses the high elf aspect of the blood elves completely, and diminish ( to be rebuilt into something new down the line), so that the high elves become a big thing on the alliance again with the kingdom going blue and being restored fully to high elven stuff.. the counter;

    The Pandaren skew far greater horde, the Tushui are a small remnant group of Pandaren that stay loyal to the alliance, meanwhile the Huojin influence grows and much of Pandaria favours horde, the culture becomes associated with the horde as others like Mogu etc join in ( to be rebalanced later when the blood elves are regrown and redeveloped.

    The reason for this is that both these races have been shared, but the Thalassian template is 100% alliance, therefore all things high elven about it should return to the alliance both to boost the alliance and restore the faction theme. The Pandaren are a unique race and culture, they can fit on either faction and were given to both, however, it would be fine for the Pandaren to heavily favour the horde instead as the high elves will alliance. It's fine that people start identifying the Pandaren more with the horde, as they do the high elves with the alliance. The Pandaren are more monstrous, but they are cute/friendly, they have also already been pre-disposed to the horde, Chen Stormstout had many adventures with the horde and Vol'jin, and almost nothing with the alliance, the one book based on Pandara, Shadows of Vol'jin was far more horde centric than alliance.

    The high elven civilization, Silvermoon, Quel'thalas are all alliance themed, but the Pandaren have a beautiful civilization too that isn't themed on any faction, so is free

    The Kaldorei rise massively, the Forsaken rise massively
    The same occurs with the Nightborne, Suramar goes alliance, thanks to the actions of the horde most citizens hated and the friendliness of Highborne night elves, broken isle ones, Dalaran wizards, Lightforged draenei, void elves and ofc Quel'thalas and the High elves' return. The Nightborne are also healing to their original night elven forms, Suramar naturally progresses alliance, a few hate that mindset, prefer the horde's, don't see themselves as defenders, but conquerors that need to perfect the world, they view the Nightborne form as a symbol of progression, and use magic to halt the Arcan'dor's effect reverting to the Nightborne.

    The kaldorei are built up, we see the full power of the pre-sundering civilization with their capital in Suramar, Highborne, Shal'dorei night elves, Moonguard, Moon Priestesses all empowering, a new well, their dignity and nobility restored and firing.. they are perfectly complimented by the long vigil groups, the druids and their packs, the sentinels and forest hunters, the wardens and the demon hunters -Shaladrassil world tree, the night warrior linking in to the civilization wing Priestesses, with the font of Elune etc

    In Contrast the Forsaken are the one that grow and develop, they become leaders of the the remaining scourge, and control vast swathes of Northrend, factions like the Ebon blade, the San'layn etc are all skewed horde because of this

    The idea is here, is that though the kaldorei are part of the alliance, and the forsaken are part of the horde, they are massive powerful entities, almost like a separate faction, with their own storyline. Initially, at least for the first two expansions the Kaldorei would have the higher momentum and build, because they're further behind, need more building up and it's the alliance profile that needs raising, while the undead have had a lot more attention over the years. they will be built up, but more of the focus would be on showcasing the alliance factions. There isn't much to show for hte forsaken except how they come to power to rule the undead and a powerful entity toe to toe and horde aligned.

    Their situation is more complex, they have far more mixed elements than before, with not all wanting to see everything burn, Lightforged forsaken and forsaken willing to work and be friends with humans. Lordaeron is no longer horde, but it is open to both humans and forsaken and both live there ruled by a council of both types of humans (undead and normal) with Calia leading. This doesn't mean all are at peace, there are human elements that want them gone, and forsaken elements that want the reverse.. it's quite a complex situation - both factions are racially involved but it's a neutral party that rules.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-01-20 at 05:55 PM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  2. #23322
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    JFC can you TRY to be concise? All this rambling and meandering is maddening, all these wall of texts have little substance and you just keep saying the same thing over and over again with more words, and less clarity.

    The high elven civilization, Silvermoon, Quel'thalas are all alliance themed
    And you keep saying nonsense like this as if it's self evident and I'm expected to take you seriously.

    So:

    Strict thematic segregation between the factions would enforce identity; easy to do, but at the cost of any nuance. Literally dumbing down the narrative. Not worth it at all.

    But even if they would go for it, removing the BE themes and aesthetics from the Horde and "returning them" to the alliance is the most asinine way to go about it. You want enforced dichotomy because it's the "easiest way" of enforcing identity, but want to do do it the most extensive and laborious way by completely revampining the elves on the Horde.

    Wouldn't it be easier to enforce thematic dichotomy by just keeping the elven arcane/imperial themes on the Horde, and druidic/nature on the alliance?

    So then you add the nonsense about elves theme being intrinsically alliance.

    You claim to want what's best for the game, but your arguments are contradictory and a thinly veiled justification for your night elven empire boner. And you end up with a baffling argument where you whole ass say that dumbing down the game and reverting its own narrative evolution for a more traditionalist fantasy would be the best for the game.

    Jesus.
    Last edited by MyWholeLifeIsThunder; 2021-01-20 at 09:15 PM.

  3. #23323
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    Well, I suppose anyone who likes being a Human servant would say all of this.

    Now grow some pumpkins for your Human overlords. The Alliance is only the faction of "Human Potential."

    The Horde is the best faction because the Alliance is nothing more than "Humans and the rest." Get used to it.

    And get over the Nightborne. They are Horde, as is Suramar. Your just spouting this rubbish because you've tried and failed, for 3 years to come up with every excuse to have Nightborne having lore moments with ONLY the Night Elves and going Alliance. You don't want them to be with any other race, just nelfs. If Nightborne want to speak to other races, they should ask tyrant Night Elves first. That is actually quite selfish.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    JFC can you TRY to be concise? All this rambling and meandering is maddening, all these wall of texts have little substance and you just keep saying the same thing over and over again with more words, and less clarity.
    Lots of words with no sense behind them.
    Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

    Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.

  4. #23324
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Well, I suppose anyone who likes being a Human servant would say all of this.

    Now grow some pumpkins for your Human overlords. The Alliance is only the faction of "Human Potential."

    The Horde is the best faction because the Alliance is nothing more than "Humans and the rest." Get used to it.

    And get over the Nightborne. They are Horde, as is Suramar. Your just spouting this rubbish because you've tried and failed, for 3 years to come up with every excuse to have Nightborne having lore moments with ONLY the Night Elves and going Alliance. You don't want them to be with any other race, just nelfs. If Nightborne want to speak to other races, they should ask tyrant Night Elves first. That is actually quite selfish.



    Lots of words with no sense behind them.
    Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

    Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.
    why do you argue with someone who wont see reason?
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  5. #23325
    So are velf players with pale skin still peddling the idea that they're actually helves? You know, despite turning purple during combat and mousing over their toon and it says "VOID ELF".

  6. #23326
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    why do you argue with someone who wont see reason?
    Because it's fun.
    I also think it's fair that if Horde loses Quel'Thalas and Suramar, then Night Elves lose their Kalimdor lands. Ashenvale is renamed to Felo'Thalas and the Sunwell is teleported to the Zorum Strand. Nightborne claim Desolace and both Elves share Feralas and rebuild Eldre'Thalas for both elves. Destroy Isildien and make it a Blood Elf town and Darkmist, a Nightborne town. Feathermoon Stronghold becomes the training grounds for Farstrider and Duskwatch alike, and Isildien is the place where Blood Knight and Priest recruitment happens.

    Then with the Well of Eternity and Sunwell, Lor'themar and Thalyssra command their Magi to erect a powerful barrier which prevents the Night Elves from every reclaiming their homes again.

    I mean, if Ravenmoon wants to continue to be unreasonable, then I will also be unreasonable. Night Elves should be completely removed and their lands, including Desolace and Stonetalon, become the new Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei home.

  7. #23327
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    why do you argue with someone who wont see reason?
    Because there is reason, they darn well know it. One group will argue against ANY suggestion, proposal, idea or argumenet that supports high elves being playable - no matter how much sense it makes, because they simply don't want that to happen so it doesn't matter what pro high elves say as this thread proves - they will respond to everything and agree to nothing. But their arguments will never stop those who want high elves playable from wanting so and making arguments for it.

    The people who want high elves playable on alliance are much much larger than those who don't. And playable high elves will affect the alliance (positively) a whole lot more than it would affect the horde negatively - especially if the developers go out of their way to ensure this is the case.


    @Tanaria , @Beloren, @ravenmoon, @MyWholeLifeIsThunder, @Alanar, @Varadoc , @Vaedan

    To be honest, I think warcraft needs the horde and alliance. It brings something special.

    It is also more special when they are different and distinct, makes you get into them more and makes the two sides mean something more, if they keep getting more similar, what’s the point in being either except for cosmetics? You diminish your charm.

    And is it worth sacrificing the high elven parts of the blood elves and the night elven parts of the Nightborne? I say yes, 100%, - the blood elves and Nightborne can live without those anyway, and the horde can too, in fact some would argue the horde will blossom with blood elves becoming more like the TFT bad boy group.

    It’s like those who say racials should be cosmetic, I disagree, racials give a gameplay reason for picking a race, it makes it meaningful and because it is meaningful it draws people to the lore of the race too. Levels 1-10 (previously levels 1-20 starter zone and 2nd controlled zone of each race) actually painted a racial story that allowed you to get into the race. These are important, they make your game feel special, and the characters you play, whether class or race meaningful.

    This is why all races cannot be allowed to have all classes (at least not all classes in the conventional way). I remember playing SWToR, without meaningful racials and no race based quests/starting zone, race has no meaning in the game except for cosmetic – it’s like a dimensions is lost from the game.

    Remove the factions you remove Warcraft's soul, Strengthen them to the original, you improve on that.. its that simple.


    I conclude, for maximum effect, it won't be enough for high elves to be available on the alliance. Blood elves would have to lose their high elven identity and all things related to the high elves while remaining on the horde, and the High elves major return to the alliance would have to be a significant and attractive. High elf skin tones for void elves won't cut it. The alliance needs its profile and image raised significantly to attract players back and balance the numbers on the faction. The game needs two viable factions to work. And the horde needs to lose the alliance themed components to make the factions distinct and recapture that heart.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-01-20 at 09:17 PM.

  8. #23328
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    So are velf players with pale skin still peddling the idea that they're actually helves? You know, despite turning purple during combat and mousing over their toon and it says "VOID ELF".
    I'm sure someone will pay you attention.

  9. #23329
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    SNIP
    Or High Elves become Void Elves and remain vastly different from the light using, arcane weaving blood elves...y'know, like they are...?

    And Night Elves stay at Hyjal.

    Or you simply have to lose all your nelf Kalimdor holdings. You won't like it, but tough. You want to be unreasonable, then I will.
    You don't deserve to keep anything on Kalimdor - Ashenvale is renamed to Felo'Thalas, the Sunwell comes with the Horde and both Lor'themar and Thalyssra command their Magi to erect a magical barrier that prevents the nelfs from ever reclaiming their lands.
    The founts of power should be with the Horde, to symbolise what the Horde embody's.

    Now obviously, Eldre'Thalas will be restored, but only for Blood Elves and Nightborne and the Horde. Isildien will become the town for Sin'dorei Priests and Blood Knights. Feathermoon Stronghold will become the stronghold for the Farstriders and Duskwatch and obviously, the important Magisters and Arcanists of the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei will remain in Eldre'Thalas, with Rommath being the general leader, but Lor'themar and Thalyssra will oversee the operations.
    Perhaps Valtrois and Rommath can govern Eldre'Thalas together.

    Ashenvale is where the Blood Elf refugees go. The whole forest is bathed in the Eternal Spring that mirrors Eversong Forest, but the whole landmass is there's. No Ghostlands or anything like that. Felo'Thalas becomes the new Thalassian home for the Sin'dorei, Children of the Blood...Blood of the Highborne, the Blood Elves.
    Desolace can be restored in the vision of the Nightborne, with many of the ruins being restored. Thalyssra and Occuleth can primarily oversee this, whilst Valtrois works with Rommath in Eldre'Thalas.

    The Draenei are also cast out as Rommath opens the Sun Gate on Bloodmyst Isle and the Elven armies storm and control those isles. The Forsaken can move in, where Kaldorei and Quel'dorei Dark Rangers can scout and control both lands. The Blood Elven Farstriders and Guardians, as well as Ley Keeper Velania maintaining the portal. They can also help their Forsaken colleagues keep the islands secure from the Draenei. Ranger General Hauldoran Brightwing, Ly'leth Lunestre and Dark Ranger Velonara keep the isles secure. This can also boost the relations between Shal'dorei and Forsaken.
    We also get a possible old friendship between the Quel'dorei Dark Rangers and the Sin'dorei Farstriders, but also common ground is met between the Kaldorei Dark Rangers and the Farstriders. A small union of sorts, between former Sentinels and current Farstriders.

    Victorie of the Duskwatch and Scout Captain Elsia could also monitor and manage the progress at the new "Sundusk Stronghold" in Feralas.

    Look, this is worth the sacrifice and you won't think so now, but this is for the better. Kalimdor does belong to the Horde and Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei must have the Night Elf lands of Kalimdor.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-01-20 at 09:29 PM.

  10. #23330
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Because there is reason, they darn well know it. One group will argue against ANY suggestion, proposal, idea or argumenet that supports high elves being playable - no matter how much sense it makes, because they simply don't want that to happen so it doesn't matter what pro high elves say as this thread proves - they will respond to everything and agree to nothing. But their arguments will never stop those who want high elves playable from wanting so and making arguments for it.

    The people who want high elves playable on alliance are much much larger than those who don't. And playable high elves will affect the alliance (positively) a whole lot more than it would affect the horde negatively - especially if the developers go out of their way to ensure this is the case.


    @Tanaria , @Beloren, @ravenmoon, @MyWholeLifeIsThunder, @Alanar, @Varadoc , @Vaedan

    To be honest, I think warcraft needs the horde and alliance. It brings something special.

    It is also more special when they are different and distinct, makes you get into them more and makes the two sides mean something more, if they keep getting more similar, what’s the point in being either except for cosmetics? You diminish your charm.

    And is it worth sacrificing the high elven parts of the blood elves and the night elven parts of the Nightborne? I say yes, 100%, - the blood elves and Nightborne can live without those anyway, and the horde can too, in fact some would argue the horde will blossom with blood elves becoming more like the TFT bad boy group.

    It’s like those who say racials should be cosmetic, I disagree, racials give a gameplay reason for picking a race, it makes it meaningful and because it is meaningful it draws people to the lore of the race too. Levels 1-10 (previously levels 1-20 starter zone and 2nd controlled zone of each race) actually painted a racial story that allowed you to get into the race. These are important, they make your game feel special, and the characters you play, whether class or race meaningful.

    This is why all races cannot be allowed to have all classes (at least not all classes in the conventional way). I remember playing SWToR, without meaningful racials and no race based quests/starting zone, race has no meaning in the game except for cosmetic – it’s like a dimensions is lost from the game.

    Remove the factions you remove Warcraft's soul, Strengthen them to the original, you improve on that.. its that simple.


    I conclude, for maximum effect, it won't be enough for high elves to be available on the alliance. Blood elves would have to lose their high elven identity and all things related to the high elves while remaining on the horde, and the High elves major return to the alliance would have to be a significant and attractive. High elf skin tones for void elves won't cut it. The alliance needs its profile and image raised significantly to attract players back and balance the numbers on the faction. The game needs two viable factions to work. And the horde needs to lose the alliance themed components to make the factions distinct and recapture that heart.
    I mean I also want playable High Elves, and I think you and Ravenmoon's proposals are the most asinine arguments I have seen in a while.

    The whole traditionalism of "getting back to Warcraft's roots" is just... nonsense. Warcraft has been a continuously evolving narrative and setting since it's inception, it's built on progression of it's world. To try to pretend there is a hard core of Warcraft were its "soul" lies is a nostalgic mirage. And at worst, like with you and Ravenmoon, becomes a justification to say why Warcraft should be, as you want it to be.

    You want the game to regress instead of moving forward, and that is just a bad take IMO. If there's a core to Warcraft, it's its evolution and progression of fantasy tropes, not your subjective opinion of what Horde and Alliance should be.

  11. #23331
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I'm sure someone will pay you attention.
    Why not? It's a legit question. If I remember correctly people were trying to double think their OCD away by claiming that a pale void elf is actually a helf because reasons. All in an attempt to cope with the fact that helves will never be a race now since they have pale skin options. Is that insanity still prevalent or not?

    Oh and that NOW belves are helves because it fits their MO. LMAO.

  12. #23332
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Lots of words with no sense behind them.
    Lets face it, he's been salty for 3 years because Nightborne went Horde. He can't get over it.

    Maybe he should just play the game and ignore the story.
    It's entertaining to engage with other opinions, even when they are dumb, but to have to parcel through heaps of filler is a punishment. Brevity is the soul of wit, and if you have to bury your opinions in verbosity and walls of text, I will start to believe you know your arguments are bad and are just trying to obscure them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Why not? It's a legit question. If I remember correctly people were trying to double think their OCD away by claiming that a pale void elf is actually a helf because reasons. All in an attempt to cope with the fact that helves will never be a race now since they have pale skin options. Is that insanity still prevalent or not?

    Oh and that NOW belves are helves because it fits their MO. LMAO.
    I meant someone other than me hon.

  13. #23333
    Oh yeah? We shall see!

  14. #23334
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It's entertaining to engage with other opinions, even when they are dumb, but to have to parcel through heaps of filler is a punishment. Brevity is the soul of wit, and if you have to bury your opinions in verbosity and walls of text, I will start to believe you know your arguments are bad and are just trying to obscure them.
    Like I say, let's have this right.

    The only reason why these two are saying this is because they are so desperate to have the Nightborne on the Alliance. They have been for 3 years. They've tried every single avenue and Blizzard haven't done anything they wanted, so now we're on this nonsense.

    I say, fight nonsense with nonsense.
    Would you like to see Ashenvale renamed to "Felo'Thalas" and the Horde control both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity? I mean, having both is real "strength" goal which is an integral part of the Horde. As Lady Thalyssra states;
    "Strength, determination, individuality."

  15. #23335
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Like I say, let's have this right.

    The only reason why these two are saying this is because they are so desperate to have the Nightborne on the Alliance. They have been for 3 years. They've tried every single avenue and Blizzard haven't done anything they wanted, so now we're on this nonsense.

    I say, fight nonsense with nonsense.
    Would you like to see Ashenvale renamed to "Felo'Thalas" and the Horde control both the Sunwell and Well of Eternity? I mean, having both is real "strength" goal which is an integral part of the Horde. As Lady Thalyssra states;
    "Strength, determination, individuality."
    Lol, but yeah, the thread is derailed enough as it is.

    Like this is the High Elf thread after all, not the "let's completely redesign the factions" thread.

  16. #23336
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Because there is reason, they darn well know it. One group will argue against ANY suggestion, proposal, idea or argumenet that supports high elves being playable - no matter how much sense it makes, because they simply don't want that to happen so it doesn't matter what pro high elves say as this thread proves - they will respond to everything and agree to nothing. But their arguments will never stop those who want high elves playable from wanting so and making arguments for it.

    The people who want high elves playable on alliance are much much larger than those who don't. And playable high elves will affect the alliance (positively) a whole lot more than it would affect the horde negatively - especially if the developers go out of their way to ensure this is the case.
    It's a classic case of you can't have my stuff. It's not about what's good for the game, or what would help, they don't want to acknowledge the other side because they're biased.. not everyone is, but some of these guys here are. They view the blood elves as theirs (ie..e the horde) and you (i.e. alliance) can't have our stuff - i.e. the blood elves.

    It's elf players really that are like this, no one makes the fuss over the orcs or goblins or trolls - it's not even about theme or position, because if it was they'd be joining the call for the high elves to return because that race doesn't belong. instead they would rather the horde be changed from its core to accommodate this pretty alliance theme than lose it so it 's original horde theme can be restored. Because they view it as their stuff.

    I have a 3rd person view, i look at it far more impartially than most, based on the themes presented, i want the alliance to be as it was and stick to its mould because this was good, and this sharing of themes is not as good as before, and it doesn't fit well. This is my motivation. Or the heart of my motivation.

    Theirs is simply just "you want our stuff, you're not getting it" and "we'll make noise, kick and scream (out of spite and jealous rage) so the devs will never give you your stuff (which they call their stuff now), back" so these arguments continue, so much to the denial of the alliance nature of the blood elves.

    And these were the same people a few pages back arguing that the blood elves were the high elves, but why were they making that argument then and now saying the blood elves aren't high elves, and aren't alliance/ because they just want to shoot down an argument that gives justifiable reason for the blood elves to lose their high elf component and the alliance gain it.

    These people are not about what is good for the game or what will help, it's all about i want so you can't have it. Like a kid who gets given the other kids shiny toy, he only started liking it because of how much the other kid liked it. When the parent took it from its owner and gave it to him to play for a while, , he took it to heart as his and refused to give it back when the other kid said enough iw ant my toy back now. Now the parent (i.e. blizz) has to decide now that the other kid no longer needs the first kid's toy he the parent took from him, whether he should give the toy back to the first kid who was taken a turn for the worse and needs to have his spirits lifted up and cheerful again. This kid valued that toy more than any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    I conclude, for maximum effect, it won't be enough for high elves to be available on the alliance. Blood elves would have to lose their high elven identity and all things related to the high elves while remaining on the horde, and the High elves major return to the alliance would have to be a significant and attractive. High elf skin tones for void elves won't cut it. The alliance needs its profile and image raised significantly to attract players back and balance the numbers on the faction. The game needs two viable factions to work. And the horde needs to lose the alliance themed components to make the factions distinct and recapture that heart.
    And I believe they would if they make those changes I'm suggesting. The horde won't become unpopular or unwanted because the high elf components return tot he alliance and the night elven ones in the Nightborne. It's image wouldn't be hit at all, it's numbers will suffer a little as the high elf and kaldorei civilization crowd on the horde will return, making the horde lose numbers, but the horde would retain it's image, a good chunk of the blood elf populace pick them for the models, not for the story or for having Silvermoon, and that's not changing with this.

    What's changing here is the alliance is going to be made to look good and have it's themes fully on its faction rather than spread across two, removing the lure that kept funnelling alliance type players over. The horde would be improved as well for being the horde, the loss of Silvermoon/Quel'thalas and Suramar is compensated with acquisition of Zul'drak, Farak, Aman, Grommash city built at Warsong hold and other assets from original horde races. Pandaren leaning heavily to the horde to would help.

    The horde's not going to be dampened here, it wit's problem in 2004-2006 was it's image and perception as the rubbish or bad faction, something the blood elves as high elves helped turn around, but the hard faction focus on them fixed, so that now, in 2018's classic, without blood elves, the horde and alliance are equal on that realm - because they are no longer perceived as the bad faction.

    The elf boost on the alliance is significant I outline (i.e. the return of the high elves and the Rise of the kaldorei) would be the keys in making the alliance attractive. Alliance players care more about the high elves and the night elves (both long vigil and pre-sundering civilization than they care about any other alliance race many times over. You only need read and see the posts about high elves and night elves/Nightborne and what they're about to see. it will work.

    So, the horde won't lose it's popularity or image, but will bleed some numbers by this. The alliance will regain much of its lost image and we would have an era where the both horde and alliance are equally popular, but feel very distinct and diverse enough, in not just a superficial character model way only. But in the types of races, their character etc etc.. And the changes it took?

    Both factions still have Thalassian elves, but the culture, the assets and bulk of the population are alliance because this is alliance themed race. The horde counterparts retain the model, but their identity is developed differently so they are distinct from the alliance and they are given some model additions (optional) that would make them appear a little more different, these will be cool to attract players to pick them but ultimately would be optional

    The Pandaren would swing the opposite way, with the horde pandaren retaining the breadth of the culture's society and civilization, assets etc, and while a small group remain on the alliance, they would be developed away, they could also be given some alternative optional model adjustments reflecting development, cool ones to entice the alliance players to use those more.

    With the Nightborne, no model incentives need be given, because the Nightborne already look different, Suramar going alliance is easy because the Arcan'dor turns the city 's Nightborne into their kaldorei forms healing the corruption of the Nightwell, with Quel'thalas and most of their blood elf friend snow high elves, disgust at the horde over Teldrassil and murdering night elves, along with a good friendship with broken isle night elves, Dalaran human and gnomish wizards, Lightforge draenei from the Argus Legion mission, it's overwhelming and more dynamic there. They join. This is part of the Rise of the kaldorei story arc that sees night elven regain their pre-sundering expertise fully through the Highborne, restored Shal'dorei and Moonguard as well as elevated roles for the druids, the sentinels, the wardens. The priests play a huge role as they have been the one constant through both the pre-sundering civilization and the long vigil one and can fit both kaldorei cultures quite well - big boosts to kaldorei power would be utilising the Well of Eternity, utilising Emerald Dream World Tree Shala'drassil, the night Warrior power and the font of Elune. The night elves are attractive and restored to their original vision on the alliance.

    This will help the alliance's image and popularity. it's not that the horde won't have improvements, they just won't be as visible or as talked up, but they would have similar to match, for example the Undead becoming a powerful force and stronghold that the forsaken lead now or have a tenuous control over, with massive bases and control in Northrend, and a part in the new affairs of Lordaeron where Calia rules and opens Lordaeron to both living humans and forsaken so it isn't faction dominated, however struggle to dominate is still an issue between humans and undead especially outside. but strong and powerful friendships also exist between the two which allows a balance and state of peace to happen at Lordaeron. Teldrassil becomes a raid, while Lordaeron becomes a neutral city - both are not in the hands of either faction, but still play a role in the story.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  17. #23337
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I mean I also want playable High Elves, and I think you and Ravenmoon's proposals are the most asinine arguments I have seen in a while.

    The whole traditionalism of "getting back to Warcraft's roots" is just... nonsense. Warcraft has been a continuously evolving narrative and setting since it's inception, it's built on progression of it's world. To try to pretend there is a hard core of Warcraft were its "soul" lies is a nostalgic mirage. And at worst, like with you and Ravenmoon, becomes a justification to say why Warcraft should be, as you want it to be.

    You want the game to regress instead of moving forward, and that is just a bad take IMO. If there's a core to Warcraft, it's its evolution and progression of fantasy tropes, not your subjective opinion of what Horde and Alliance should be.
    Look, it's not my proposal, it's Ravenmoon', I think it would work, but make no mistake, I won't be as bothered anywhere near as much he or you will be. From the point of making the alliance popular and restoring the horde/alliance dichotomy he has a valid point, from any other perspective, playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.

    this thread is a wish fest QQ, nothing more.

  18. #23338
    You and Mace should go back to Stormwind and grow pumpkins for your human overlords.
    That's all Alliance is; Humans and their pets.

    It's little wonder why Blood Elves and Nightborne perform so well...they aren't part of the "Humans and their pets, faction.

  19. #23339
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I think that's as good a reason as any. Blood elves don't need to have that alliance identity, in fact, initially they were given a new one, but snapped back to high elves.

    The devs can ultimately do what they want, but if they are considering making the alliance desirable and attractive and restoring faction original themes, identity and dichotomy in that or so "heart of warcraft" that's what they need to do.
    Orcs can befriend humans, elves can grow madly in love with trolls, they can do what the hell they want.. They are the ones that want two distinct factions and want their game based on that system. They expanded it to four in WC3, then cut it back down to two.

    They have the alliance meaning one thing, and the horde meaning another. They only took the blood elves to the horde to help with numbers, not to change their philosophy of who the horde as or who the alliance was... except that action has affected it somewhat.

    Well now the horde no longer needs that alliance race presence for it's numbers.. so why is it still there? If Warcraft is still about these two factions, then in order to make it work properly they need to fix this issue we have here.

    But it's not the only reason, the alliance now needs the numbers, and it would also receive the boost it needs by bringing the high elves back properly. As for the blood elves, they would benefit in many ways, a new direction has many advantages, it allows them to be clearly different form their high elf past, allows them to fit more in with the horde, no need to suppress them in the narrative of the horde because they're no "horde" enough or rather too alliancey.

    And you can do new things with them, this was after all the very reason they were coined in WC3. They weren't made to be high elves and now there is need for them to embrace a different direction.


    Going Forward With the Factions and the Elves -
    for the good of the Alliance, the Improvement of the Horde and the Good of the Game.


    The horde really doesn’t need the prettiest aspects of the alliance, nor the alliance high elven and night elven cultures and their lifestyle, cities etc, but the alliance really does.

    You the savage, beast, noble savage, cool beast are all hugely popular now more so than they were in the 90s and early00s when far more people looked down on such things, now everyone wants to be the man with calls, and doesn’t mind being the monster – or the bad boy, especially if you make it look cool and give it cool things.

    Classic shows that without blood elves, the horde is holding its population, so I very much don’t think the horde will spiral or be crippled to an unsustainable level if most of the NPC blood elves in Quel’thalas return to the alliance as high elves and Suramar also goes night elven.
    Meanwhile the horde continues to have the cool monster, primal majestic civilizations like the Zandalari can arrive in new variations like the Arrakoa, the Drakkari, Amani, a new Orc/ogre stronghold city.

    And blood elves can take on a more horde centric personae and development. people found Illidari blood elves, San’layn, and Darkfallen elves quite cool – these are really nothing like high elves, nor are Naga or Felborne anything like the Night elves they once were.

    Finally, you do realise the blood elves are being held back on the horde precisely because they are so alliance like – it’s not that they are not-horde like, it’s because they’re very alliance seeming, so it’s hard to make them more prominent in the story being so alliance, they will be immediate beneficiaries of this move, and can actually, once they are developed into something unrelated to their alliance themed racial past, actually play far more visible role in horde stories.

    How you Proceed

    At his stage of the game, with void elves, skin tones, the history and need to revitalise the alliance, blizzard should give high elves in full. The fact that blood elves will have the same model ofc doesn’t help going in the distinction direction – but like Pandaren, it’s already here. Just like we won’t remove blood elves form begin playable to fix the system, so to we won’t stop high elves from coming in fully because of model similarities, as it’s already there.

    What we will instead do is adjust narrative and perception to make the two as distinct as possible in other very noticeable and visible ways.
    Blood Elves
    1. Blood elves new direction that is very different from high elves
    2. 2. Blood elves get new architecture and established in new zones
    3. Blood elves will get new customisable options for their models to reflect new powers. These will be optional, but they will give alterations to the model that will alter the silhouette somewhat and make the model look different enough – you can still choose to let your blood elf look like it is now, but the idea is that the alterations new lore and features would be cool enough to captivate many blood elf players to using them. Blood lf NPcs will have the new looks, but a small handful, like 1 in 20 would have no new features.
    Nightborne:
    They are already looking different enough from Night elves. When Suramar goes neutral or back to the alliance, the Nightborne in there have all pretty much been transformed to Night elves, while a few decide to halt the Arcan’dor’s healing process to keep their new form, this is far more common amongst Nightborne who refused to join the alliance. These Nightborne believe conquest is the Shal’dorei’s destiny, their rightful place (as you heard from loyalist NPCs in Suramar), and were not repulsed by the War of Thorns genocide, unlike the vast majority of the city state. A necessary pragmatic and shrewd decision to win a war.

    To this effect, the Nightborne changes are largely in the story that show the development of how the Nightborne that stay on the horde depart from their kaldorei Suramar life they’ve known and becomes something else as they embrace their magic.

    1. Nightborne new direction is very different from thee kaldorei pre-sundering civilization nobility and benevolence that Thalyssra exuded in 7.0
    2. Nightborne get new architecture (could be merged with Naga or with blood elves’ new one) and they are established in their own corner (my suggestion is Desolace)
    3. Nightborne will also get new customisation options to show case new powers and developments but it’s not as important as it is for the blood elves.

    Equal Shares on Alliance and Horde:
    The way it will end up game wise, only two models are shared... The High elf model (with high and void elves on alliance, blood on horde) and the Pandaren.
    Pandaren would be heavily skewed horde, which means most of the Pandaren will lean towards the horde, and a few would lean towards the alliance. This is already evident in the quest chains in Pandaria anyway, the horde get a much better intro and explanation, the stronger bond is forged with Lorewalker Cho and the horde hero. Chen Stormstout has far more bonding with Vol’jin, the troll and the horde than the alliance. The Pandaren, while not a horde culture, are definitely a unique culture, rich, and majestic, and so fit the horde better. Their animal appearance, while cute lends more to the horde too.

    The horde’s diversity is mis no longer because it has horde and alliance themed races but more like it has humanoid and furry types.

    The Thalassians on the other hand are skewed heavily to the alliance, with most of the celebrity, history, assets of the high elves on the alliance. The horde does retain blood elves, but they are a small group and eventually advance in areas unique form the high elves. As do the San’layn and fel elves with them.

    The Night elves are also heavily alliance. But while Suramar returns, the models are still separate, with the skinnier Nightborne model only exclusive to the horde, and the more medium build healthier model exclusive to the alliance. Suramar is still alliance though, but most t of the Nightborne there have become Night elves again, to them Shal’dorei is a unique Suramar caste, like Highborne is caste, not a race. The Arcan’dor fully reversed these guys back to their night elven form, but while the process was happening they got much closer to alliance races including their kaldorei kin on the island, the Highborne from Eldre’thalas now helping the alliance, the human and high elven wizards of Dalaran, and they took great interest in the void a topic that Highborne Shen’dralar are known to have studied, void elves love, half of the Order of Elune is re-acquainted with and the druids are very interested in to help protect the emerald dream. The pursuit of knowledge, the overwhelming level of kinship and then their restoration to the night elves, just ended up resulting in most of the city having more business with the alliance.

    It didn’t help that Quel’thalas turned blue too, so most of their friends on the horde were now high elves on the alliance, and finally, the actions of Sylvanas during BFA, especially the war of thorns had shattered both the confidence and turst the Nightborne had of the horde, many argued that they should no longer have anything to do with the horde as this faction did not represent their value.

    Seeing that they had received most of the help from their night elven kin during the Suramar conquest both the islanders and the Darnassian contingent and the majority of the blood elven army that had helped out were now calling themselves high elves and allying with the alliance... they followed suit. Many had felt joining one faction was rush they were uncomfortable, some felt it was wrong not to be on the side of aiding their kaldorei kin

    So, the Suramar elves once Nightborne, are now Night elven again, the Shal’dorei Night elves, they are marked by arcane tattoos, glowing hands and arcane features to their hair that comes in 3 types, electrified strands of silver, bright purple and pink purple. A 3rd option is added to the night elf hair accessory, and that’s stars, signifying the kaldorei of the stars – so you can choose either vines, arcane strands or stars for your hair.

    The Arcan’dor process can be magically halted or stalled, but most people who are in Suramar love their original night elven appearance, a few prefer the new Nightborne look, so retain it, but this is not accessible to alliance players.

    Some a few number of Nightborne much preferred the horde, It’s character and its strength and have ambitions of ruling or controlling it anyway, they choose to remain with the horde and also attempt to restore Elisande, whiles Elisande isn’t enemy, this is viewed as hostile and they get banned from the city, but they succeed in that task, and this is part of a long storyline over 1 or 2 expansions that will see the horde Nightborne make new developments distinctive and different from their Suramar and Night elven past. They consider themselves the true Nightborne, and the name slowly comes to be exclusive to them. Their race is the Shal’dorei. While the city Shal’dorei are Night elves now, Highborne Shal’dorei night elves or just Shal’dorei night elves if they weren’t Highborne.

    Potential Advances and Sub races:

    Alliance:
    High elves allied race in the Return of the high elves (none glowing eye options added to the Thalassian model)
    Emerald Dream Worgen Night elf allied race in the Rise of the Kaldorei, in addition arcane customisations to represent Suramar Nightborne who regain their kaldorei form by the Arcan’dor (new arcane tattoos, and star and arcane hair options in addition to vines, glowing hands options). The new worgen are half night elf half animal with features that correspond to their enhanced form. 3 enhanced forms are customisable a wolf man (new worgen model) a bird man (modelled on the harpy) and a Panther man (modelled after the Zul’Gurub High priestess Arlokk/Bethekk and the Saberon), a bear man (modelled after the Guardian druid mage tower bear form Artifact appearance)

    Horde:
    Forest and Ice Trolls – loss of Quel’thalas/Silvermoon and Suramar precipitate the gain of Zul’drak, Zul’Aman, Zul’Farak and the playable bulkier model of troll.
    San’layn/Darkfallen blood elf customisations – to represent one of the shifts in the blood elf (red eyes, Dk undead skins), more developments to come.
    Mogu become a playable allied race in part of a story that sees the growth of horde and Pandaren relationships, in addition Tauren get Yaungol face and skin tones customisations. Rajaani Mogu, Huojin Pandaren and Yaungol form and extended unity that brings a new degree of stability to pandaren, winning many Pandas over to the horde, the Tushui Pandaren allied with the alliance.

    Let’s be Frank and Honest
    Despite all the advantages blood elves and the horde may get, and the ones the alliance may get, some of you may still not want this because it’s just not what you want. You lie the blood elves in this high elf mode, and I totally understand that.

    I can’t force you to change what you like nor what you want. I ‘ve only presented a picture of how things good be different and better for many things to do with the game. By just affecting those two alliance races on the horde.

    It’s not a popularity contest, , I am convinced that things will be better all round for everyone, better than it is with high elves and their culture sitting on the horde or night elven civilization sitting on the horde – as much as you have come to be use to it, it’s broken and it isn’t good for Warcraft in the theme the devs like so much, and it is un-necessarily breaking the game.

    At the end of the day, the horde only needs the models available to play, but there is so much more you can do with what remains after the high elves return to the alliance, it will be much healthier.
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Anyone who started playing wow after TBC or did not play the original RTS and classic might not understand this, but Wow seems to have lost it's soul, this is not a good thing, and it's important enough to do something about even if we disagree on what.

    To stay in the horde /alliance 2-faction system, and have it blurred or homogenised to the extent it has, has made a lot of things in wow lose it's mean, in particular the very founding faction s the game is based on - now if this is low priority or not important then have it your way. But I think the devs feel that this is what Warcraft is all about, and it's that charm that built it into the great franchise it is.

    They could abandon it, but it will just become like every other product and lose it's most dear function...still, who's to say the replacement won't be better right? Well many think wow's premise is already lack lustre, and I'm telling you having alliance on the horde via the blood elves and Nightborne is one of the major causes of this.

    Finally, I think the alliance low numbers is definitely something that is important, and warrants some serious effort to remedy. I don't think blood elves losing Silvermoon and Quel'thalas for big High elf return or Nightborne losing Suramar to catapult the rise of the kaldorei in order to put the alliance shining brightly on the map again is actually a big price to pay.

    Blood elves are only losing some territory and the Nightborne a city essentially, the alliance is gaining a part of its core that its fans have always held dear and gaining strength and presence to its two most venerated elven races - the two races they talk about the most, the high elves and the night elves.

    For restoring the alliance and repairing the faction theme, and the only cost is blood elves losing some land and Nightborne losing a city full of people in the narrative to the alliance? that's a tiny price to pay for a huge benefit - only the horde elf fanbois would be upset with it. If you ask me, this would do far much more than burning Teldrassil ever did. It won't just provide interesting drama, and a far less violent one too (if my suggestion of the ones in Quel'thalas not being murdered but instead returning tot heir high elf identity and the ones in Suramar having the Arcan'dor change most of them back to Night elves, simply drift into the arms of the alliance because of the sheer number of interest from Highborne, void elves, high elves, humans, draenei, gnomes etc that are much more like them.


    Blood Elves Do Not Feel Horde - Too Alliance:

    They may be signed up to the horde, but they couldn't feel less horde if you tried. And this is intentional, because blizzard wanted an alliance race of high elves on the horde to lure the alliance over...that's why the blood elves calmed down through the story of TBC and got "redeemed" into Light worshippers, and good ol high elf types. This is not horde-like at all, nor is that type of civilization or culture. The irony is that the Nightborne are even more benevolent, pretty much like the Kaldorei and Farondis Highborne types, Thalyssra and her Nightfallen rebellion lot hearkening back to the original nobility of the pre-sundering kaldorei - they fit much better on the alliance with both that attitude, culture, theme, civilization and aesthetic.

    The horde quests are all about killing , showing a blood thirst of some sort, or desire to conquer and be strong. This doesn’t fit the Nightborne character or the Silvermoon/Quel’thalas type blood elves – they’re more likely to sneer at this and go, typical solve everything with a fist or axe – and look down on the senseless killing – this is a very alliance type attitude, because these race are entirely based on that.

    The Nightborne and Blood elves were not designed for the horde, they were designed as the night elf sub race , a night elven people and the high elves.. blizzard even made the less alliance types like Kael'thas' Sunsworn and Elisande's Loyalists enemies different and apart from these playable types – and it’s funny how those are closer to the horde, though still a bit too alliance if you ask me.

    Making the Blood Elves more Horde Like

    Part of the development would be to make the blood elves and Nightborne that remain on the horde (i.e.t hose that don't return to being high elves and revert to being night elves from the Arcan'dor) feel more appropriate and fitting into the hordes theme, aesthetic and character even though they're going to be unique enough anyway. the main aim is that they don't feel alliance, so they lose the lands and architecture, character, theme, ideology, and all those things get modified to something cool but more fitting.

    Here are some examples to draw from:

    When I look at the 1. San’layn, or 2. the Illidari fel blood elves, I get a much different vibe from them, one that fits the horde a lot better and that doesn’t feel alliance. They don’t live in beautiful high arcane cities – there is an imposing dread about the fel elf architecture that’s legion based, and if the San’layn were to build something it would look like Revendreth and Castle Nathria – majestic and imposing but definitely not high elven and not associated with the alliance.

    My solution for the Nightborne remnant would be either to join the blood elves, or have their fate tied to the naga, another elven off shoot that has very little in common with the alliance type kaldorei – Highborne or otherwise. This is the direction they need to go.

    Night elves did not feel less night elven for losing Teldrassil or Darnassus, Blood elves will not feel less blood elven either for losing Silvermoon, also if the blood elves shift back to the more bad boy elf, closer to the likes of
    1. Illidari anti-hero types - basically the demon hunter customisations open up to a range of classes with new Orders for Warlocks and hunters replacing the old high elven Farstrider types and
    2. San’layn vampire types as well - a lot of these in the new Farstrider replacement order as well as a rogue order. They also lead the blood mage
    3. Blood Crystal Kael'thas Sunsworn types, this would be better .
    4. Nethertouched Blood elves - without the Sunwell, those who thirst for magic employ the nether - and instead of going wretched, they gain some awesome new customisations.
    5. old school high elf type - this is what should be next to none existence, however some blood elves hold on to that, few and far between, but they are available for players who want to model their blood elf after the Quel'thalas populace type, based on the high elves.

    I think people will like the blood elves becoming more hard core it is a development that fits the horde and feels tougher – it hs been my observation fans haven’t liked how high elven the blood elves have become too pussy like.

    People did not like them changing the night elves into passive human lovers – and while we can argue that the night elves were always benevolent from the lore if you actually bothered to read the texts and the books (and not just play WC3), they clearly had a tough ruthless side that had a moment in WC3, so that change in wow wasn’t welcome, partly because the hardcore side of night elves wasn't shown (rather than blizzard making them something they were not), and changing the Darnassian Kaldorei wasn’t necessary too, not while the night elves have the Highborne/Moonguard side of them that fits with the civilization and arcane magic themes of the alliance to draw from, they could and still can just use the Suramar restored night elves and Highborne Moonguard types to be the ones more involved with humanity and alliance culture, these Highborne/Moonguard types are after all the foremost in this sort of thing according to the lore, as their civilization is magically advanced.. so blizzard has a duality in the night elves to exploit, the more isolationist xenophobic seeming long vigil type druids and hunter priests, and the high civilization advanced arcane magic type Highborne/Moonguard and temple priests. But this is the lore of the Night elves, having half that on the horde in the Nightborne doesn’t make it any less night elven or alliance. What it does to is make the horde feel more alliance, and the lack of this part of the night elves on display on the alliance, makes the horde look more attractive to alliance type players luring them over, as well as making the night elves look like the lesser group. A night elf race having both pre-sundering magic/civilization types interacting with humans/gnomes/dwarves and high elves as well as more isolationist forest benevolent types that you use for wilderness type settings makes the race feel more alive, more complete and more importantly more based on it's lore.

    However all these aspects are all alliance based. Suramar, kaldorei civilization, benevolent noble elves, Elune worshipping priests or Light wielding believers, botanists or druids with magical science and faith, high society civilization and gentil character - all of that stuff is alliance. When it sits on the horde characterising the Nightborne, it is quite clear the Nightborne don't feel horde, to those who remember the original horde, and to those who pay attention to the tone of the quests.

    Take wow, despite the old guys being what they are, most horde quests are pretty savage and brutal, full of blood lust, revenge, rage, conquest, and a sense of honour that is orc based (think klingon from star trek), and not alliance like at all. Then you come to the blood elves and Nightborne and you get this very alliance type/behaving group - it's not unique. it may be unique to the horde, but it's not unique because it's 100% alliance.



    Therefore the horde ones have to change to keep the distinction and their assets and NPc population returning to the alliance would boost it.

    Blood elves don’t just have to have one theme, just like the night elves have several in the pre-sundering and long vigil groups , so too can the blood elves. Blood elves keep the starting experience off course, it just becomes phased like the Worgen and Goblin ones. you can return to the timeline via a Chromie visit. And enjoy Silvermoon all you want.


    High Elves Return
    So, the solution is the high elven aspects of the blood elves, simply become officially high elven again. And it's done in a glorious spectacular style to raise the profile of the alliance.

    They return as an official allied race, no need to make void elves have full high elven appearances. I recommend the story be done in a very alliance way, through reasoning, diplomacy that highlights the conflict in ideologies and character of the horde and alliance that prompts the blood elves in Quel'thalas to decide they're high elven, this is their identity and that Sin'dorei was not a change in their race or philosophy, but a period of mourning which has now ended.

    There is no slaughter of blood elves by the alliance and military capturing of Quel'thalas, the reason we have lots of high elves is because the blood elves in Quel'thalas chose to return to being high elves.

    not every blood elf agreed, some love the horde, love the blood lust, love the power and despised the high elven way, these remain loyal to the horde and continue to call themselves blood elves, in time we get to see them branching intensely into blood crystal magic, fel magic, bolstering their numbers with the Darkfallen and San'layn, and harnessing the Nether, they get a different style of architecture too that reflects these changes - think Crystal song forest, think legion, think Castle Nathria, with elements of Silvermoon - the result is a unique new style, that looks impressive, and powerful - not the delicate beauty of Silvermoon- that's alliance now, but it's replacement is just as stunning and majestic in a stronger more ruthless way. Some still carry the gentler touch of the old ways, but they are far fewer, enough to allow players who like that to roleplay, but not dominate the landscape of the blood elves.

    Meanwhile we see the high elves return. They are no push overs, you see much more of the Farstriders, the magisters and the priests become the face of the light rather than the Paladins. Silvermoon gets its update as blue returns, the magisters colour is blue, the Farstriders green, and the royal guard red.

    • high elves areas of focus are:
    • Arcane magic - mainly the frost and fire department
    • Sun magic - solar magic fire is a pursued development from their time as blood elves.
    • A lot of sun focus too
    • Farstriders - your bow slinging wood elf Legolas trope in force here


    Blizzard need to show these guys off in all the ways the fans love and desire of high elves.

    one phrase for you:

    TOO MUCH

    This is way too much, we live together, but you've gone too far, and are taking too much time - you're trying to make horde fans agree with you by giving the horde stuff, it's too much.

    To be honest, I think you are bending over backwards for the horde – it makes no difference to fans here, you don't understand what passion and love means, it's not rational, you could offer them the kitchen sink they wouldn’t take it, because the fact you want the high elves badly makes them think it’s worth more than it is, and because they view you as the enemy, any improvements you suggest for them would be ignored. It’s psychology. Plus some of them love it as it is no matter what. Just like some alliance fans loved high elves and always resented them going horde till this day.


    You've given the horde way too much, they don’t’ need all that, nor do you need to make the alliance super. You’ve offered far too much, and they’re not even interested, improvements to orcs, trolls, goblins, Tauren, 4 more cities, Pandaren fully horde in all but name, the undead being even more powerful and prominent and then a rebuild of the blood elves and the Nightborne into something incredible? Did you read what you wrote? It’s too much, they’re already the popular faction by some distant, and it’s arguable whether the high elves return and the rise to prominence of the night elves would be enough to even the score, not to mention add all this stuff to the horde.

    I would first boost the alliance with the High elves returning and raising the kaldorei up in a cool way, not ridiculously, then see how that goes, if it turns out to do extremely well then I’ll start adding more of the horde stuff bit by bit so the horde doesn’t lag behind (if that ever happens), but this can happen over time, as you raise the night elf profile, you can raise build up the undead.

    But much of this would depend on how attractive high elves and cool night elves are to the alliance. And you will have to remember elves are not the only alliance race, so others will also need improvements. I think you people put too much stock in elves.

    Or maybe it's blizzard's fault for making them the only really attractive models in game and under estimating how much of a driving force this is to most of their player base. They should have made elves the ugly race, I bet we won't have anywhere near this amount of fuss, even if the lore was exactly the same minus the beauty part.

  20. #23340
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    this thread is a wish fest QQ, nothing more.
    Well, duh.

    Look, it's not my proposal, it's Ravenmoon', I think it would work, but make no mistake, I won't be as bothered anywhere near as much he or you will be. From the point of making the alliance popular and restoring the horde/alliance dichotomy he has a valid point, from any other perspective, playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.
    Saying he has a valid point is like saying You should cut your feet off to save on shoes. IDEK with this people that claim to like WoW, yet want to make it something completely irrecognizable under a nebulous and highly subjective view of what is "better" based on wishful thinking and personal appeal. And TBH honest, any opinion on improving the game that actually negates and regresses player choice is so uncaring about how others experience the game, and as someone that advocates for more player choice across the board, I just can't fathom people actually advocating for taking options away from other people as a valid argument.

    Yes, there is a balancing issue with the factions, but the solution isn't to dumb down the setting and throw nuance away.

    playable high elves or non playable high elves really doesn't make much of a difference because they are playable on the horde already. it's harsh, but it's true.
    Should I give you the benefit of the doubt on your ignorance about this tho? IDK man. The thing that pro HE people want is for the Ideologically and Politically Alliance High Elves to be Playable -give or take personal opinion- The whole "High Elves are Playable on the Horde" nonsense got tiresome years ago.

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