Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Also if blood elves are high elves why does this thread exist in the first place then?

*sigh* because there are still major ideological and political differences between High Elves and Blood Elves... as it has always been the case.

How is it STILL so hard to get after all these years?

Like this is basic stuff dude, it's not funny to pretend ignorance at this point, as if you hadn't been on this thread before.

We are on the point of the discussion between the fluidity of High Elf and Void Elves as groups of identity, their overlap and what it could mean to their future as a group of te alliance, are you are still on the BS of "hurr durr high elves and blood elves are the same, no?" unable to absorb any nuance.

[Rhlor]

Just makes me wish that we got Void Krokul and Lightforged Elves instead.

lightforged elves!!!!

[Varx]

*sigh* because there are still major ideological and political differences between High Elves and Blood Elves... as it has always been the case.

How is it STILL so hard to get after all these years?

Like this is basic stuff dude, it's not funny to pretend ignorance at this point, as if you hadn't been on this thread before.

We are on the point of the discussion between the fluidity of High Elf and Void Elves as groups of identity, their overlap and what it could mean to their future as a group of te alliance, are you are still on the BS of "hurr durr high elves and blood elves are the same, no?" unable to absorb any nuance.

Because RP ideologies alone don't make a playable race and sure as hell do not justify copy pasting a horde race to alliance.

Other wise we'd have regular kt humans right now or regular gilneans or alliance grim totem.

[Kyriani]

Because RP ideologies alone don't make a playable race and sure as hell do not justify copy pasting a horde race to alliance.

Other wise we'd have regular kt humans right now or regular gilneans or alliance grim totem.

Well if we go back in time before void elves were a thing, players asking for playable alliance high elves did suggest a new model, new hairstyles, and all sorts of things to differentiate them from blood elves. Those ideas were shot down by both players opposing alliance high elves in any form, and by Blizzard themselves when they added void elves.

In Blizzard's defense, void elves required a lot less effort than making a brand new character model would have taken, and at the time, for some reason Blizzard thought the model was all people asking for alliance high elves really wanted. So in a failed attempt to quell the constant requests for alliance high elves, void elves were pulled out of someone's ass by slapping a blue coat of paint on to the blood elf model.

Obviously that didn't quell the requests. So with Shadowlands, Blizzard specifically added what they themselves called "high elf customization" to void elves, and almost had the request filled... almost.

If we learned anything from this melodrama playing out, it's that if you're looking for a specific race, or specific set of options to portray said race, all you have to do is spend 16 years badgering the devs for them... and they will still fall short of what you want. Then you badger the devs over the next two years to give you the last options necessary to finish the aesthetic you're looking for in the next expansion.

I would also not be surprised if at some point in the future (couldn't say when), Blizzard gave kul tirans the option to use the stormwind human models (and possibly allow stormwind humans to use the fat kul tiran models). RP ideologies may not make a playable race but they do have some influence on the devs design decisions as indicated by high elf customization for void elves, wildhammer customization for dwarves, sandfury customization for trolls, etc.

[shoc]

lightforged elves!!!!

Hey, it's just as significant a change as the Lightforged are to the Draenei.

[Ardenaso]

if Vereesa had Garrosh killed do you think none of these would have happened at all?

[Varx]

Well if we go back in time before void elves were a thing, players asking for playable alliance high elves did suggest a new model, new hairstyles, and all sorts of things to differentiate them from blood elves. Those ideas were shot down by both players opposing alliance high elves in any form, and by Blizzard themselves when they added void elves.

In Blizzard's defense, void elves required a lot less effort than making a brand new character model would have taken, and at the time, for some reason Blizzard thought the model was all people asking for alliance high elves really wanted. So in a failed attempt to quell the constant requests for alliance high elves, void elves were pulled out of someone's ass by slapping a blue coat of paint on to the blood elf model.

Obviously that didn't quell the requests. So with Shadowlands, Blizzard specifically added what they themselves called "high elf customization" to void elves, and almost had the request filled... almost.

If we learned anything from this melodrama playing out, it's that if you're looking for a specific race, or specific set of options to portray said race, all you have to do is spend 16 years badgering the devs for them... and they will still fall short of what you want. Then you badger the devs over the next two years to give you the last options necessary to finish the aesthetic you're looking for in the next expansion.

I would also not be surprised if at some point in the future (couldn't say when), Blizzard gave kul tirans the option to use the stormwind human models (and possibly allow stormwind humans to use the fat kul tiran models). RP ideologies may not make a playable race but they do have some influence on the devs design decisions as indicated by high elf customization for void elves, wildhammer customization for dwarves, sandfury customization for trolls, etc.

And this stems from the fact helfers just wanted the belves as alliance since the model was so damn popular. Having alliance helves existing in the lore and in game NPCs only added fuel to the fire.

I don't buy the whole, "oh it's not about the model" that's BS.

How do I know? Because now that velves get fair skin options all is well. Now all they need is regular hair. Despite the fact that a velf will always be a velf unlike how a belf is more in line with the actual helf fantasy now. So yeah it's all about the model.

Helfers just don't wanna play horde side because of mudhuts and green people. I know because I used to feel the exact same way when I played a belf in TBC and I discovered helves were a thing.

Helfers used to not be happy with the fact that there were helves in the velf zone but NOW that u get pale velves it's magically okay. Please...

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Because RP ideologies alone don't make a playable race and sure as hell do not justify copy pasting a horde race to alliance.

Other wise we'd have regular kt humans right now or regular gilneans or alliance grim totem.

And why not? Why is a world predicating into the conflict between two superpowers artificially segregated by "race"? THAT is what makes no sense, and it couldn't be more evident when you have Pandaren in both factions, and groups like High Elves and Kul Tiran crossing the faction divide.

The racial divide is a gameplay constraint, not a lore one; let stop pretending it's intrinsic to the setting when it's constantly contested by the narrative itself. Instead of denying a fact of the universe because of the current gameplay choice, it would be better to suitable fit the gameplay to reflect the in-universe, and you can do that in a way that faction choice still remains meaningful without forcing a race segregation that is not reflective of the lore.

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And this stems from the fact helfers just wanted the belves as alliance since the model was so damn popular. Having alliance helves existing in the lore and in game NPCs only added fuel to the fire.

I don't buy the whole, "oh it's not about the model" that's BS.

How do I know? Because now that velves get fair skin options all is well. Now all they need is regular hair. Despite the fact that a velf will always be a velf unlike how a belf is more in line with the actual helf fantasy now. So yeah it's all about the model.

Helfers just don't wanna play horde side because of mudhuts and green people. I know because I used to feel the exact same way when I played a belf in TBC and I discovered helves were a thing.

Helfers used to not be happy with the fact that there were helves in the velf zone but NOW that u get pale velves it's magically okay. Please...

And now you are making a generalization based on your own, limited experience, saying everyone that doesn't fit that view must be lying. Disregarding the fact that many of us play both factions and like Blood Elves as well.

How can you even pretend to be "part of a discussion" when you simply decide other people must be lying if it doesn't fit your narrative? And you are not new to this thread, yet even after all this time you still hold that view -that others MUST be disingenuous on their views because you they don't suit you- That's not having the bare minimum of respect for other people; not because you don't agree with them, but because they must be lying if they don't think like you.

Unbelievable.

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Hey, it's just as significant a change as the Lightforged are to the Draenei.

Do you realize that's not a good thing, right?

[shoc]

And why not? Why is a world predicating into the conflict between two superpowers artificially segregated by "race"? THAT is what makes no sense, and it couldn't be more evident when you have Pandaren in both factions, and groups like High Elves and Kul Tiran crossing the faction divide.

The racial divide is a gameplay constraint, not a lore one; let stop pretending it's intrinsic to the setting when it's constantly contested by the narrative itself. Instead of denying a fact of the universe because of the current gameplay choice, it would be better to suitable fit the gameplay to reflect the in-universe, and you can do that in a way that faction choice still remains meaningful without forcing a race segregation that is not reflective of the lore.

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And now you are making a generalization based on your own, limited experience, saying everyone that doesn't fit that view must be lying. Disregarding the fact that many of us play both factions and like Blood Elves as well.

How can you even pretend to be "part of a discussion" when you simply decide other people must be lying if it doesn't fit your narrative? And you are not new to this thread, yet even after all this time you still hold that view -that others MUST be disingenuous on their views because you they don't suit you- That's not having the bare minimum of respect for other people; not because you don't agree with them, but because they must be lying if they don't think like you.

Unbelievable.

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Do you realize that's not a good thing, right?

Remind me to mark all my posts with /s, I underestimated the intelligence of this thread

[Varx]

And why not? Why is a world predicating into the conflict between two superpowers artificially segregated by "race"? THAT is what makes no sense, and it couldn't be more evident when you have Pandaren in both factions, and groups like High Elves and Kul Tiran crossing the faction divide.

The racial divide is a gameplay constraint, not a lore one; let stop pretending it's intrinsic to the setting when it's constantly contested by the narrative itself. Instead of denying a fact of the universe because of the current gameplay choice, it would be better to suitable fit the gameplay to reflect the in-universe, and you can do that in a way that faction choice still remains meaningful without forcing a race segregation that is not reflective of the lore.

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And now you are making a generalization based on your own, limited experience, saying everyone that doesn't fit that view must be lying. Disregarding the fact that many of us play both factions and like Blood Elves as well.

How can you even pretend to be "part of a discussion" when you simply decide other people must be lying if it doesn't fit your narrative? And you are not new to this thread, yet even after all this time you still hold that view -that others MUST be disingenuous on their views because you they don't suit you- That's not having the bare minimum of respect for other people; not because you don't agree with them, but because they must be lying if they don't think like you.

Unbelievable.

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Do you realize that's not a good thing, right?

It's not just what I've experienced it's also the behavior I've witnessed from other helfers particularly this thread. When velves were first announced there was nothing but hate from helfers even after high elves were proven to be among them in the rift. But NOW and only NOW it's okay after pale options, come on man...


Also, it's a freaking game. It's unrealistic that all universe aspects of the wow universe should apply to gameplay aspects. We'd then have hundreds of races with their own racials and what not It's unrealistic.

Also don't use pandas in your argument. They were introduced as neutral, not helves.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Remind me to mark all my posts with /s, I underestimated the intelligence of this thread

Satire requires clarity of intent. Specially when things you say in frankness are already highly suspect.

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It's not just what I've experienced it's also the behavior I've witnessed from other helfers particularly this thread. When velves were first announced there was nothing but hate from helfers even after high elves were proven to be among them in the rift. But NOW and only NOW it's okay after pale options, come on man...

That's just... not accurate; a lot of us have been pushing for the unification fo Void Elves and High Elves since day one, hoping VE's would have been made out of High Elves -like Alleria- and serve as the de facto continuation. A lot of people hated VE's because they were Blood Elves when they could have been High Elves. You are taking a misrepresentation of the facts and spinning them to fit the narrative you prefer.

You are simply taking one aspect, one opinion, and making a generalization. How is that accurate or fair?

Also, it's a freaking game. It's unrealistic that all universe aspects of the wow universe should apply to gameplay aspects. We'd then have hundreds of races with their own racials and what not It's unrealistic.

Also don't use pandas in your argument. They were introduced as neutral, not helves.

What does it matter that Pandaren were introduced as neutral when my point is that the gameplay is not reflective of the lore? Are you getting the point?

The point is that gameplay racial segregation is a hindrance to the lore and is not reflective of it. That pandaren exist exactly the same in both factions proves there are no actual practical downsides.

When the point is to literally create a player segregation that serves no practical purpose beyond... forced segregation, that's very open to criticism.

[Varx]

Satire requires clarity of intent. Specially when things you say in frankness are already highly suspect.

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That's just... not accurate; a lot of us have been pushing for the unification fo Void Elves and High Elves since day one, hoping VE's would have been made out of High Elves -like Alleria- and serve as the de facto continuation. A lot of people hated VE's because they were Blood Elves when they could have been High Elves. You are taking a misrepresentation of the facts and spinning them to fit the narrative you prefer.

You are simply taking one aspect, one opinion, and making a generalization. How is that accurate or fair?




What does it matter that Pandaren were introduced as neutral when my point is that the gameplay is not reflective of the lore? Are you getting the point?

Well if you were part of that group then great. You saying you don't mind purple only velves if they were helves to begin with and not exiled belves?

Also just because playable helves aren't real doesn't mean gameplay doesn't reflect lore. There are more normal kt humans than fat and yet fat are the only option for players. Why? Because the normal model already exists and it'd be redundant from a gameplay perspective if normal kt humans were available.

The faction divide is at the core of warcraft and is precedent over lore shenanigans. You don't need helves to push the lore narrative anyway. They just need to exist.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well if you were part of that group then great. You saying you don't mind purple only velves if they were helves to begin with and not exiled belves?

See this is the part where I kinda have to facepalm a bit.

Because you just literally read I am against artificial segregation of the races, that I would hope the game would be more reflective of the nuances of ideology, and STILL you ask "well, would you have been fine with that unecessary dichotomy if it had been slightly closer to what you wanted mmm?"

It's a moot question because it doesn't address the core of my issue with the restrictive race choice. It's a moot question because the issue is WHY there has to be an artificial dichotomy between factions, when the lore already has groups of the same race, in different factions.

(And even yet, YEAH, Void Elves would have been much better if made of High Elves, because it would have both respected the ideas of faction ideology and served as a continuation of the HE story)

Also just because playable helves aren't real doesn't mean gameplay doesn't reflect lore. There are more normal kt humans than fat and yet fat are the only option for players. Why? Because the normal model already exists and it'd be redundant from a gameplay perspective if normal kt humans were available.

Yes, it not necessary to make "regular shaped" kul tirans when you have the human model. It's close enough you can fulfill that fantasy with the assets you have.

Much like you can (almost) fulfill a High Elf fantasy with the VE model, thus making High Elves their own AR isn't needed.

So yeah, let's just add some kul tiran jewelry on humans and normal hair colors on Void Elves and we are kinda set.

The faction divide is at the core of warcraft and is precedent over lore shenanigans. You don't need helves to push the lore narrative anyway. They just need to exist.

Literally not the point; I'm not arguing against the faction divide's necessity -I LIKE THE FACTION DIVIDE- My point is that the faction divide should be more meaningful than being forced to chose races based on a gameplay segregation that isn't reflecting of the lore. That's a handicap of the potential.

Or you really think the faction divide rests solely on the segregation of races and models... when Pandaren literally go against that already?

[Varx]

]

See this is the part where I kinda have to facepalm a bit.

Because you just literally read I am against artificial segregation of the races, that I would hope the game would be more reflective of the nuances of ideology, and STILL you ask "well, would you have been fine with that unecessary dichotomy if it had been slightly closer to what you wanted mmm?"

It's a moot question because it doesn't address the core of my issue with the restrictive race choice. It's a moot question because the issue is WHY there has to be an artificial dichotomy between factions, when the lore already has groups of the same race, in different factions.

(And even yet, YEAH, Void Elves would have been much better if made of High Elves, because it would have both respected the ideas of faction ideology and served as a continuation of the HE story)



Yes, it not necessary to make "regular shaped" kul tirans when you have the human model. It's close enough you can fulfill that fantasy with the assets you have.

Much like you can (almost) fulfill a High Elf fantasy with the VE model, thus making High Elves their own AR isn't needed.

So yeah, let's just add some kul tiran jewelry on humans and normal hair colors on Void Elves and we are kinda set.



Literally not the point; I'm not arguing against the faction divide's necessity -I LIKE THE FACTION DIVIDE- My point is that the faction divide should be more meaningful than being forced to chose races based on a gameplay segregation that isn't reflecting of the lore. That's a handicap of the potential.

Or you really think the faction divide rests solely on the segregation of races and models... when Pandaren literally go against that already?

Not every race fits into that mold man. U can't expect orcs to run around sw like any other Tuesday and think it's okay for the entirety of warcraft.

It's okay for pandas since that's their gimmick and their inclusion revolves around it. That gimmick doesn't revolve around velves or helves or any other race despite what the lore shows. Pure high elves have been solidified as a playable horde race just like orcs and tauren despite what current or future npc groups form. It's painfully obviously and something players like you refuse to accept.

Just because something exists in lore doesn't mean it should be available for players.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Not every race fits into that mold man. U can't expect orcs to run around sw like any other Tuesday and think it's okay for the entirety of warcraft.

It's okay for pandas since that's their gimmick and their inclusion revolves around it. That gimmick doesn't revolve around velves or helves or any other race despite what the lore shows. Pure high elves have been solidified as a playable horde race just like orcs and tauren despite what current or future npc groups form. It's painfully obviously and something players like you refuse to accept.

*Sigh* and why would EVERY race need to fit that mold? You are making so many assumptions about what other people think or believe.

Only some races have significant groups on both factions, the largest ones being High Elves and Kul Tirans -yet there are more viable ones- all there is needed is a certain balance of what gets exchanged, and the limitations of it, which can be done through unlocking of AR, or customization options.

Just because something exists in lore doesn't mean it should be available for players.

Sure, but there has to be a reason for things to be a certain way; and my whole point is that the hard dichotomy of race/faction combos doesn't have a good reason. Because the racial segregation of factions at this point is just a hindrance to the actual lore of the game, an artificial barrier. Addressing the artificiality of that barrier doesn't meant that "every race can be of both factions", but should allow for more player agency based on the nuances of the setting itself.

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Well for me personally, I want black hair, specifically because my character concept always called for it, but also because it never made sense to me that void elves didn't have black as a hair color option (and white too for that matter).

For other people, particularly those that have been campaigning for playable alliance high elves, void elves were a perversion of that request. Basically a corrupt-a-wish. No one ever asked for void elves to be a playable option because void elves didn't exist prior to allied races being added to the game (and more specifically don't exist until their unlock scenario), whereas the highmountain, nightborne, and lightforged did, and had foundational elements laid prior to allied races ever being a thing.

Since Blizzard added the blue eyes and broad range of skin options to void elves, and billed these as "high elf customization", the only thing left to finish the high elf aesthetic is a few natural hair color options. This is asked for by those seeking playable alliance high elves and also by those who just want a bigger range of colors for their their hair. The current hair palette is very "one-note" and more variety is desirable by many. Since alliance high elves as their own race is unlikely to ever happen since void elves exist and have high elf customization options, those seeking alliance high elves are simply trying to finish that aesthetic. And other players, such as myself, simply want more variety (and specifically black in my case).

Like it or not, Blizz basically set a precedent that high elf customization options are part of the void elf package when they added "high elf customization" to void elves, and asking for the last bit to finish the aesthetic is well within reason (and I agree with this). Blizzard also doesn't have to copy and paste all the blood elf hairstyles and colors to fulfill that request either. If Blizzard wants to add more hairstyles, they can make new ones or simply port styles from other alliance races. If Blizzard wants to make certain the void aesthetic is always an option they can turn the hair tentacles into a toggle like the night elf hair vines so that all void elf hairstyles can have tentacles if the player wants them to. And as for hair colors Blizzard could add a few token colors in the human range to basically fulfill the request.

This picture is one I like to reference. It adds options, both for the void aesthetic, and options that can also fulfill the high elf aesthetic, all without copying stuff from blood elves:

Another big thing is that new possible Void Elf hair colors and styles could follow an alliance aesthetic, rather than a Blood Elf one -overall shared hair styles notwithstanding- it's an opportunity to explore the cultural differentiation of a same people in different cultural context, the choices that create difference within the universe -this could even serve to give Pandaren, let's say, faction locked options like hair or jewelry-

In the case of Void Elves, to expand and define their cultural aesthetic not only as blood elven exiles of 2 years -which is already limited- but also to fuse it with an alliance high elf one that has existed separate from the blood elf horde mainstream for over a decade in universe -and even beyond in certain cities-

Alleria herself is a prime example of the possibilities, as she is a representation of an earlier iteration of thalassian culture currently not presented on the Horde. Her literal nature as a High Elf turned Void Elf, alliance through and through, could serve to generate an elven identity that exists on an alliance context.

-and that's not even denying BE's of their own farstrider aesthetic, they could get their version of it to, but that's the point, the alliance ranger aesthetic could overall with that one, but have its own unique flouriushes such as void colors and designs, even if, let's say, both races get braids and feathers

[Varx]

*Sigh* and why would EVERY race need to fit that mold? You are making so many assumptions about what other people think or believe.

Only some races have significant groups on both factions, the largest ones being High Elves and Kul Tirans -yet there are more viable ones- all there is needed is a certain balance of what gets exchanged, and the limitations of it, which can be done through unlocking of AR, or customization options.



Sure, but there has to be a reason for things to be a certain way; and my whole point is that the hard dichotomy of race/faction combos doesn't have a good reason. Because the racial segregation of factions at this point is just a hindrance to the actual lore of the game, an artificial barrier. Addressing the artificiality of that barrier doesn't meant that "every race can be of both factions", but should allow for more player agency based on the nuances of the setting itself.

So what, turn a race neutral everytime an appropriate npc faction forms? F that.

Why limit it, then might as well make all races neutral if it's so inevitable. Then the faction divide is pointless if it doesn't have any real tangible distinction other than blue/red bad.

[Mungho]

Only some races have significant groups on both factions, the largest ones being High Elves and Kul Tirans -yet there are more viable ones- all there is needed is a certain balance of what gets exchanged, and the limitations of it, which can be done through unlocking of AR, or customization options

What? Kul Tirans are on the Horde?

[Rhlor]

What? Kul Tirans are on the Horde?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Plunder_Harbor

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without a doubt i can see turalyon letting in orcs lightbound to stormwind

[Vaedan]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Plunder_Harbor

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without a doubt i can see turalyon letting in orcs lightbound to stormwind

Except almost nobody wants orcs to join the Alliance?

I'm also not sure if Turalyon would be so content in teaming up with orcs. He dedicated his life on Azeroth on defeating them and in next 5 minutes he returned back home, he become commander in a fight against orcs in Arathi. Them being lightbound does not mean he have to be friendly towards them. He was pretty hostile to Lady Liadrin in Arathi as well and she is paladin as well.

There is lot of possibilities with Lightbound, but the chances are they will serve as antagonist for both factions in some of next expansions.

[BaumanKing]

Except almost nobody wants orcs to join the Alliance?

I'm also not sure if Turalyon would be so content in teaming up with orcs. He dedicated his life on Azeroth on defeating them and in next 5 minutes he returned back home, he become commander in a fight against orcs in Arathi. Them being lightbound does not mean he have to be friendly towards them. He was pretty hostile to Lady Liadrin in Arathi as well and she is paladin as well.

There is lot of possibilities with Lightbound, but the chances are they will serve as antagonist for both factions in some of next expansions.

It's apples and oranges. In Arathi Turalyon was defending his friend's homeland from the Horde invasion. He has no special hatred for his enemies and it actually pained him to see those he was fond of so revenge-ridden during the Invasion of Draenor. Alleria on the other hand still hates orcs. And since Turalyon is her lapdog now he'll do whatever she says.